Thursday, January 19, 2012

Dale Schurter: "I Have Strayed From The Truth," "I Have Washed My Mind"



Never underestimate the power of these blogs.  As much as we are hated by many of the diehard Armstrognites, they are regular readers here and elsewhere.  I guess they love to be titillated, or they silently admit that their news sources are not as good as ours.

On January 14th, I published the comments of a reader here as a blog post, Dale Schurter: The Master of Flip Flopping (Updated)   It has went viral through many COG networks and has landed at the feet of Davie Pack and  Dale Schurter.  You may have noticed the week long absence of posts from Schurter during his reeducation process when Davie got wind of his many heretical beliefs.

Today Schurter and RCG's PR machine had to answer some of those accusations.  His comments are very telling of the cult mentality he has jumped ship into.

He starts off by laying blame at UCG's feet for his actions. He claims he was not following "true church government" and that he sinned by sharing his papers with his congregations on various topics.  Ministers only write papers on subjects that are dear to them. Schurter is being disingenuous by trying to pass the buck.

Those in the United Church of God understand that this group allows, or encourages, local ministers to present “study papers” and include input from local members before sending them on “up the ladder.” I personally have worked on several research, study projects, and would sometimes share the study with the local congregations I pastored. The idea was for brethren to be like the Bereans, who “searched the scriptures daily, whether these things were so,” and to give feed-back and input, etc. It was always my intent to help broaden and deepen our understanding of a doctrine (if doctrine were indeed involved). While well-intentioned, I now realize this was wrong.
Obviously Schurter has had to deal with the wrath of Pack on the various weird beliefs that he had when he jumped ship to RCG.  Schurter has had to "repent" of his grievous and erroneous beliefs that have watered down church doctrines


Without church government as we understood was restored to God’s True Church through Mr. Armstrong, this type of confusion occurred. And, yes, through anointing my eyes with more oil and eye-salve, I found that I had some repenting to do…and I have; and as I continue to see more clearly, I continue to restore the full truth in my life, lifestyle and teachings. This includes repenting of my slow changing and watering down of church doctrine, traditions and practices because I had lost sight of how---through which office---doctrine is placed into God’s Church.

Schurter goes on to say he had to "wash out his mind" in order to fit in to Dave Pack's off the wall  beliefs. Washing ones mind sounds a whole lot better than saying "brainwashing."  It is quit obvious that we are all first hand witnesses to a real brain washing by Davie Pack and what it does to his followers.

While the “modern” approach appeals to the typical twenty-first century, democracy-oriented mind, it is wrong---and the fruits make this plain. Just this practice makes it impossible to follow Paul’s exhortation in I Corinthians 1:10: “Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.” This is the environment that I realized I had to come out of, after learning many hurtful lessons from inside it. And I have had to wash out of my mind the approach used there---so different from what God established and used through Mr. Armstrong’s tenure as Apostle and Pastor General of the Church of God. Mr. Armstrong’s---and the Bible’s---approach, and this washing is an ongoing process.

Through Dave Pack's miraculous, mind boggling inspiration, Schurter has had to admit he has "strayed" from truth.

Some of what has been reported of my past beliefs is true. Thus, I found I had strayed, although unintentionally, from truths in a number of areas. I realized from scripture that one cannot be “partially” in a Laodicean era condition, we are either Laodicean or we are not.

One of the things we nailed him on was his widely know belief in the "sacred names" malarkey.  Many Armstrongites have gravitated to this legalistic belief system.  Schurter was one of them, no matter how much he wants to gloss it over.  Too many people have heard him talk about it.


For example, I developed an incorrect focus on the Hebrew names of God. I did not intend to be part of any “sacred names” movement (and I never taught that it is “evil” to say “God” or “Jesus Christ”). Our Father’s and Savior’s names are pronounced differently in many different languages, including English, Spanish, Italian, German, Hebrew, etc. However, I often over-emphasized the Hebrew to the point of creating a potential stumbling block. I firmly believe that we should speak God’s names in our native languages…wherever we live around the world. Those who make Hebrew names a point of contention become self-righteous and divisive. This can be seen among some groups that make the “sacred names” their sole identity. 

 The next thing we had reported on him was his belief in a "young earth."  This did not sit well with Davie and as a result, Schurter has had to repent of that understanding and return to what Pack believes and HWA taught.
I had also moved toward the idea of a “young earth,” based on certain Bible translations. I had a certain line of reasoning driving my thinking. I had forgotten that Mr. Armstrong was settled in his mind on this by explaining the time “gap” between Genesis 1:1 and verse 2, and re-confirmed it in his final book, Mystery of the Ages

Next he calls those who made claims about new moons and other astrological events are lairs. I guess Dale seems to forget that there are countless people that have heard him talk about this.

This said, some of what has been presented regarding my past is either misrepresentation or pure fiction. I did study new moons from the agricultural perspective, as astronomical events related to growing seasons, and the way to mark the beginning of a month, years, etc., using God’s calendar. Most of this stems from when I was asked by Mr. Armstrong to lead the agricultural department at Big Sandy. But I never advocated new moons as holy days for the church to observe, as some have proposed. And, I also continue to believe and teach that the Sabbath begins and ends at sunset, not at any other time. Recent reports to the contrary in order to discredit me (and RCG) are simply invention, or perhaps the intent of what was spoken/heard was communicated poorly, not understood correctly, or both.

Schurter writes:

Many of you may believe that, “in your own way,” you are holding to what you learned from God through Mr. Armstrong. But I have learned how far one can drift from his teachings, traditions, and example and not realize it!

No where in his entire letter did Schurter mention following Jesus.  It is all about following Dave Pack as he follows the teachings of Herbert Armstrong.  You have to look far and in between to find Dave Pack talking much about Jesus too.  It's all law, all the time.  But have no fear, Schurter is just like Hebrew prophets and leaders.  They were sinful men used by God and he (Schurter) is a sinful many being used by God.  Through Dave's almighty instructions he has come to see the error of his ways and has repented.


I am encouraged when I recall that mistakes made by Moses, King David, and others are recorded in Scripture for our learning---and that, because of their repentance, they still will receive great reward in God’s kingdom. It is good to again be in the Government of God. Again, the good fruits of The Work He is accomplishing through the leadership of the Pastor General of the Restored Church of God, Mr. David Pack and his support team, is both encouraging and inspiring. On a more personal note, I have heard Mr. Pack say, just as Mr. Armstrong often said both publicly and privately, “I have made mistakes in the past for which I have repented and also, when proven wrong, I changed and corrected the error.” Good example.

Dave Pack has used this heretical beliefs of Schurter as a tool for reeducation and publicity.  Schurter says he has repented and had his eyes anointed.  Lo and behold, Pack as a booklet on that same topic!

Brethren and friends, if my public admissions, needing to anoint my eyes, repent and change will help others to do the same, this would be a rewarding joy. I do urge you to seek God’s help to anoint your eyes. You will find Mr. Pack’s book, “Anoint Your Eyes – Christ’s Warning to His People,” contains all of the scriptures to recognize where one stands, and how to go about the anointing.
Schurter signs off by letting you know that other ministers who are "chomping at the bit to write about their exodus from pagan, filthy UCG into the glorious light of the Restored Church of God.  Besides, these men will need to write as Schurter continues his reeducation at the feet of Apostle Pack.

Please understand that I am deluged with emails and calls, and that other RCG ministers who were formerly in UCG (and some in other splinters) will be writing posts for the next period of time. It was always the plan to include other voices on this website (as outlined in “About This Website”). These men are “chomping at the bit” to add support to what I have written over the last week and a half.
Not once has Schurter mentioned he was following Jesus.  That alone tells a whole lot about what a fool Schurter has turned into.  Maybe I should not have said that, now we will get to see a flurry of posts from Schurter and other defecting Ministers all talking about how they are following Jesus.

Why anyone in their right mind would continue to follow this man now is beyond belief.  Members of UCG know exactly what this man was like, what he believed and taught.  Even though he was widely liked, they know exactly what he taught no matter how much he denies it.  Now he has done a 180 degree turn and seen the light; in one of Amstrongism's more aberrant cults.  Since he made such a dramatic turn around and has now repented of countless beliefs, what is there to make us want to believe him now? The mind washing and reeducation in Restored Church of God must be mighty powerful.  Especially since it has been revealed that RCG only has 2,100 members.

To read Schurter's entire letter click here:   The Choice God’s People Face


24 comments:

Anonymous said...

"I have heard Mr. Pack say, just as Mr. Armstrong often said both publicly and privately, “I have made mistakes in the past for which I have repented and also, when proven wrong, I changed and corrected the error.” Good example."

Translation:

"I just was reminded by Mr. Pack a few minutes ago in this long meeting designed to get me back on track......"

Also, HWA, as all the cultic gurus and one man shows, either rarely ever actually did this or only did it when the truth was self evident and only a stubborn fool could deny it.

I think there is a rule for the one man show types that if you are to remain credible in all things, you cannot admit to more than one or two mistakes in understanding in a lifetime.

2100? You're kidding
M.T.Hall

Anonymous said...

"While the 'modern' approach appeals to the typical twenty-first century, democracy-oriented mind, it is wrong---and the fruits make this plain. Just this practice makes it impossible to follow Paul’s exhortation in I Corinthians 1:10: 'Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.'"

And be sure to pay no attention to the screaming coming from the basement.

Douglas Becker said...

It is called Folie à deux.

It is a mental disorder.

The only cure is to get away from the insane psychosis.

Anonymous said...

I couldn't help but notice almost this exact same post, verbatim, over at James Malm's blog this morning. So the question I'm left with is... did he plagiarize you (as it would appear), or did you copy him just to get under his skin? Especially since he seems to take issue with the fact that Schurter's response was not done solely by his work.

Anonymous said...

Also regarding Malm, as I'm sure this may come up, you use PST time stamp and he uses MST. The comment on your blog is time stamped at 7:38 AM (and 7:40 AM), or 8:38 AM MST.

He tries to claim pre-eminience and the lead in breaking the story because the comment was submitted to him at 8:58 AM the same day. 20 minutes after the time stamp for here.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Mish-Mash said...

"While the 'modern' approach appeals to the typical twenty-first century, democracy-oriented mind, it is wrong---

So why don't we try the "old" Fascist approach where everyone swears obedience to one man, his ideals and his orders.

Anonymous said...

Given the circumstances, Schurter's letter was rather predictable.

He might as well just go ahead and give his new pack-pimp-god a blow job.

Maybe his new pimp pays him more than UCG did.
A ho's gotta do what a ho's gotta do.

Norm

NO2HWA said...

Hi Anon: I just saw what you are referring to about Malm. This is too funny. He has copied my post word for word in places and is attributing it to himself. I did this post last night around midnight after a long day. I had checked Pack's defecting ministers blog that Schurter is "writing" on sometime earlier and saw that he had posted. When I got home I did my little spiel excerpting comments from Schurter and adding my two cents. This all started from a comment by a reader on January 14th where they mentioned several things about Schurter that they knew first hand. See: http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=226103369043606765&postID=7675790618449577929

I then posted it to the blog later that evening on January 14th as a separate posting here:

http://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/2012/01/dale-schurter-master-of-flip-flopping.html

This is the post that has been copied over and over to other people and what made its way to Apostle Malm's computer screen. I know it has being passed around because I received it from a person the other day that does not know I do this blog. You can by guaranteed that Apostle Malm was sent this information too.


When I get things from Apostle Malm's site I always write that "Apostle Malm says/has posted/has reported/written...." My use of Apostle is deliberately derogatory because Malm thinks he is the worlds best authority on end time events. On that he is a proven lair. Even Prophet Thiel recognizes that, though his version is just as crazy.

Malm has a history of taking posts and using them word for word on his blog. He has taken thins from Mike's and Casey's blogs and used them word for word on his own.

Malm can lie all he wants and say I copied him. On that I can call him a liar. For Apostle Malm to lie so blatantly is pretty hypocritical considering how legalistic he is in condemning COGers around the world for failing to follow all of God's commandments. Hypocrisy is one of Armstrongism's biggest traits so I am not surprised by what the Apostle has written THIS morning.

NO2HWA said...

Well Anon, like I said before, he can lie all he wants and copy me word for word. He is latching on to an original posting by a reader here and his/her comment. My time stamp was last night around midnight and I can care less what his time stamp is. He copied me word for word and if he says other wise he is a liar. Since he is already proven to be a liar, doe she not realize that he is breaking one of his holy commandments that he demands others keep?

Byker Bob said...

"learned from God through Mr. Armstrong." Now, there is a really oxymoronic statement!

You have to wonder what some of these people are going to say as they stand before God on judgment day! Whether they realize it or not, they've actually placed HWA above Jesus Christ in their focus. HWA was not the perfect standard which they've come to believe. Also, HWA did not die for our sins, and can't pay for them. He did have and exude a certain spirit, but it's not one that I would want!

BB

Byker Bob said...

"learned from God through Mr. Armstrong." Now, there is a really oxymoronic statement!

You have to wonder what some of these people are going to say as they stand before God on judgment day! Whether they realize it or not, they've actually placed HWA above Jesus Christ in their focus. HWA was not the perfect standard which they've come to believe. Also, HWA did not die for our sins, and can't pay for them. He did have and exude a certain spirit, but it's not one that I would want!

BB

DennisCDiehl said...

obviously the rest of the comment on 1 Cor 1:10 never made it onto the posting. sorry, don't know what happened and it was darn good!

Anonymous said...

2,100 members? Something tells me that Pack will have to lean heavily on that membership to fund his building plans- but I suppose that is how it is done.

It is interesting that James Malm continues to copy and paste away to fill his blog (along with "breaking news" that usually amounts to nothing) considering how this has been brought up before. I know Bob Thiel is a weasel but he will at least note where he obtained his information. But of course he never links to it...

DennisCDiehl said...

I won't endeavor to recreate my original comments but simply say that anyone can see, well most can, that Dale is doing what he was told to do and fix the perception that he and Dave would not speak the same thing.

Dale's comments are distressing to me in that they seem so contrived, so compliant and exactly what Dave has told him to say if he ever intends to work for RCG.

To me, it is witnessing a man give up his soul and mind.

My I Cor 1:10 comment, though longer, was basically how much I have always hated that idea because it is not possible to all speak the same thing in reality. We are all different with different life filters. What it means and what it meant to Paul was, "I expect you all to speak the same things as I speak them." Paul, nor Apostle Dave were asking for input so they might change their misperceptions on truth. They had the truth and the congregations and ministry were being expected to speak the same thing as the boss and the same thing they were told in the meeting to believe.

Anonymous said...

A la Douglas Becker's earlier post (couldn't resist).

(To the tune of "Bicycle built for Two.")

Folie Built for Deux.

Dale, Dale,
Give me your answer true,
I’m half crazy
Over the love of you!
It won’t be a stylish marriage,
You can’t afford a carriage.
But I’ll look sweet
Upon the street
In a Folie built for Deux.

Davey, Davey,
Give me your answer true,
You love Herbert
You know that I love him too!
Bigger and bigger and faster,
You lead, I’ll follow after.
The victims fly by
As you and I
Ride a Folie built for Deux.

Davey, Davey,
Give me your answer true,
Please, please let me
Peddle the "truth" with you!
When you and I go cruisin’
You'll thank me for choosin’
RCG,
The true church, I now see,
And our Folie built for Deux.

NO2HWA said...

Anon:

I see you had to go and annoy the Apostle with "time stamps". I love it! Got em! Now if he would acknowledge that he copied my post verbatim in places. Sheesh, I am having too much fun doing all of this.

Mike (Don't Drink the Flavor Aid) said...

We should start calling Malm the "Cut-and-paste Apostle".

Malm must feel that his spiritual status exempts him from certain limitations, like the 8th commandment. As I consider taking my words and represent them as his own as stealing. Nothing accidental about it either. I complained in a comment on his blog, he simply ignored it and didn't approve it.

Anonymous said...

Mr No: (no need to post this): I actually emailed you a few months ago with an email of gratitude. I'm still a COGer, even if we disagree on very fundamental items. But what's sad is I still see you as one of the most honest COG bloggers our there. I'm the Modus Ponens you'll see plague Malm (or have him misrepresent). Nonetheless, I again express my gratitude at your blog. There are many times I shake my head at the way we view things (especially if Dennis has posted)... But as a COGer that lauds the intelligence God gave him but holds a different view of religion and rationality than many of my atheist friends think me capable of... I just appreciate your approach to being as honest and objective as you can and find or laudible as life goes.

I want you to know something, too. Please don't see this as an insult. Conceptially speaking, we have our beliefs.i view mine as legit and true even as all you see is the evils of peak Armstrongism. So basically, I think Mr No, if this makes since to you, I also accept what people like you went through as WCG members. And I'm sorry for all the crap you put up with. My true feeling and believe of God, garnered friom HWA centric beliefs, is a merciful God from whom gave us The Law for many practical reasons.

Please keep moving forward!

NO2HWA said...

Thanks Anon: I posted your comment because I agree with much of what you said, and my moderator review only shows part of the message, so had to post it to see what all you said.

I try to be honest. Besides, there is no way in the world I could make some of this stuff up!

Plus, I am not bitter with any of the experiences with over 45 years tied into the church. Lots of regrets, but no bitterness. I would not be where I am today, done the things I have done if I had not come out to Pasadena. It was certainly a learning experience.

Working in Pasadena gave an insight to the operations of the leadership that the majority of church members never saw nor could imagine. that is the main reason I could never go with any of the splinter groups when they went off into hundreds of different directions. I saw how those men acted in Pasadena and had no desire to continue to be subjected to their heavy handedness and manipulation in their new groups.

Many of my friends are content in their groups. Most are in LCG, UCG and COGWA.

For a group of people who claim to have the pure truth and the final witness we are sure one messed up bunch!

Is it no wonder people ignore the church and it's message? What good does endless end times speculation and a wrathful God that Malm promotes do for humanity? It turns them off.

I am glad you have found what works for you. Obviously you are more attuned to what is going on than most, so I ask that you never allow yourself to be sucked in for abuse through deviate ministers like Pack and Flurry.

I am sure if many of us got together for a beer we would have a great time together. We won't agree of some things, but our shared experiences are something that only we can understand and take a step back and laugh at. No one outside of this can understand it.

Thanks for contributing to this little blog. It is people like you that make it possible!

DennisCDiehl said...

NO2 Said:

"I am sure if many of us got together for a beer we would have a great time together"

Now this is the truth and a small dream of mine to have a dinner of the willing to show up together!

Perhaps if we saved a second tith...well never mind :)

I deeply appreciate being allowed to post here and even more to have my thoughts shared about the journey, the Book and perhaps be somewhat helpful along the way.

Ultimately as noted many times, I write to process the experience and as NO2 said, I would not have had many excellent experiences or met the people I have along the way had I not had it.

I guess if I want to boil down my thoughts into sentence it would be, "Pious conviction with marginal information is not our friend."

Anonymous said...

MP says: I approve of a beer summit, were it to happen. I also apologize for the seeming incoherency of the last comment-- late night and thoughts spilling through keyboard fingers.

But yes... We all have different conclusions, we think each other wrong and process life based on those views. But to me? I think you, and Dennis as I previously called out (not with malice, just acknowledging we have VERY different takes on matters), would still have God's grace and mercy despite what other COGers might claim. (I'm rarely a fan of my own 'side' and how they typically comport themselves and ideals to others). I often get together with a Daoist friend of mine and discuss deep philosophical and religious views--he's always come away appreciative of my not trying to convert him, but being honest of my beliefs while being consistent and having a thought out reason for it.

In any case, don't really know what I'm driving at here. Maybe just to let you (and other commenters) know that not all of us Armstrong-based COGers are insane or as... vitriolic as some responses get. We all are a product of our experiences and choices... And I believe God (the Father and Christ both) realize that. And I think no matter who we are, the outcome of it all is going to surprise us all...

John said...

So Malm's "cutting and pasting" entire texts that aren't his--that actually belong to NO2HWA--and passing them off as his own?

Doesn't this type of plagiarism remind you of someone we all know? Who was guilty of the very same thing?

Someone who "cut and paste" entire books written by others. Who failed to give other authors credit. And who would then pass them off as his own work?!

What was his name again? I think his initials were something like H...W...A? Is that right? Well I guess some are happy to follow his example even when it comes down to playing a plagiarist.

Anonymous said...

"I do urge you to seek God’s help to anoint your eyes. You will find Mr. Pack’s book, “Anoint Your Eyes – Christ’s Warning to His People,” contains all of the scriptures to recognize where one stands, and how to go about the anointing."

and how to go about the anointing????? What is this some kind of car wash you drive into and be sure to pick wash, wax, tire clean and rust coating???

Dale should be ashamed of himself for being now his inauthentic self

M.T.Washings

Anonymous said...

I haven't read the letter by Dale, does anyone have a complete copy ? I do Like Dale,and Mona very much I learned many things from him in the Nassau church, (God thru WOG called me out of this world) and for that I am grateful, but I admit that the whole thing was really off the track of what the bible teaches.
Sad to say they reverence HWA, not God, and Jesus. the one statement that really gets me was about him getting back on track with the teaching of HWA, and the traditions of the "True" church, which was very telling. "in vain do they worship me etching as commandments the doctrines of men " goes the scripture.
After years of intensive bible study, it is very clear they only use about 10% of the bible. and clearly do not understand large portions of Hebrews,Galatians,Colos, and I Corinthians, Etc. I pray for them everyday, that they honestly review their bibles,and teach what God, and Jesus thru the Holy spirit teaches, and not just repeat what HWA said or did.
We can bitch and complain all day long in Blogs about how wrong they were, but why dwell on the past, they are so fragmented and off track they can't see which way is up, and they will have some of the brethren still believing this stuff.
This reminds me of another scripture, we all have to work out OUR OWN salvation with trembling and fear. So don't worry about how they flip flop or change their stories.
I am sure they are as Confused as I was, but I humble went back to the basics, and read the bible, and asked God for understanding.

So the question is not weather they are right or wrong..those fruits are plain. its weather "WE" are going to Seek Gods WILL or our OWN.

read Joshua 24-14 this helped me decide how about you.