"Is
He Coming Again or is He Not?"
If the Second Coming of Jesus was imminent and soon, over 2000
years ago, can it still be imminent and soon in our time? I spent 30
years of my life believing this contradiction to be true. I taught it was
true. I hoped it was true. However, it was and is not true.
To the point. Every scripture in the New Testament about the
immediate return of Jesus was written to and for those people 2000 years ago.
Not one scripture , comment, encouragement and declaration about the return of
Jesus to make the world all right again was meant for the future. It was
not meant for us. In fact, while meant for those who lived in and around
the time of Jesus life and death, it turned out not to be true for them either.
We today read an awfully lot into the Bible texts about the Second
Coming of Jesus. I did it sincerely for decades. There is this magical
feeling that whenever the scripture says "to you it is given," or
"you will see..." or "we shall be changed.." it is
talking to us today or even to me specifically. Of course, it is not. It
was spoken to "them" and not us. We can make it all dualistic
or type and fulfillment all we want, but in fact, no scripture on this topic is
speaking to me or you in this day.
When Jesus is made to say in Matthew 23:34 "Behold I
say unto YOU, THIS GENERATION shall not pass until all these things be
fulfilled," he meant it. He didn't mean this generation who sees all
the signs for every generation has any number of same things going on to
"see" as the sign of his coming. Jesus was talking to THEM and
to THEIR generation. Frankly, it was a failed piece of non-truth for them
as well.
Matthew 24 was never meant for us today and it was all about the
experience they were having 2000 years ago under the Roman boot in Judea.
Matthew 26:64
64 You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.
The YOU was them, not us.
Matthew 10:23
23" When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."
The YOU was them, not us.
Revelation 1:3
3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
"Time is near," or as Revelation 1:1 notes, "to
show unto his servants the things that must shortly come to pass," was for
them , not us. It was their "shortly," not ours.
Revelation 1:7
This plainly tells the audience of that time that EVEN
THOSE or that Roman soldier who pierced Jesus would live to see him
return. And no, not in the future resurrection, but soon.
Revelation 22:66 These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.
Revelation nicely wraps up and reiterates that it was soon for
them, not us. Just as we tend to take the word "you" in the
Bible as meaning us today, so "his servants" are now long dead ones
and not those who today define themselves as still "his servants."
Revelation 22:7, 12 and 20 remind the reader of that time and that
generation, "behold I come quickly..." It meant to the
author what he meant it to mean...soon.
Whoever, and it was not Paul, wrote Hebrews 1:1-2 told that
audience that in those last days then, God is now speaking to them through his
son and not by the ancient prophets. "These last days" meant
exactly what the author meant it to mean for them, not us.
1 John 2:18 goes even further to clarify that it is not just the last days, but they then were in 'the last hour." Their last hour, not ours.
18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.
1 Corinthians 10:11
11 "These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.
All the warnings derived from the past history of Israel were written for them to warn them upon whom the end of the age (not world) had come. Paul never for a moment, until he had no choice, believed it was not him and them. If we simply think Paul just didn't know it was a much bigger "YOU" or "US", then at least we have to admit that Paul mislead many, lied and didn't know what he was talking about. Telling people then that they should be encouraged that soon means at least 2000 more years is not encouraging and no one would bother with such a teaching.
1 Peter 4:7
7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be alert and of sober mind so that you may pray.
Read it at face value. The end was near for them, not us.
I Cor 7:29
Brethren, the time is short...
1 Corinthians 7:25-28
25" Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy. 26 Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for a man to remain as he is. 27 Are you pledged to a woman? Do not seek to be released. Are you free from such a commitment? Do not look for a wife. 28 But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this."
Paul was sure of the shortness of time that he made up rules for "time is short," behaviors . He didn't forbid marriage, but he did discourage it. How sad that some ministers today do the same thing thinking "YOU" means "THEM." How many relationships did the Apostle Paul screw up being wrong about his vision of soon?
The author of 2 Peter 3:3-10 was beginning to suspect the game was running into overtime, people were dropping out and scoffers were getting antsy and vocal over all these promises of "soon." We all know that feeling don't we... So, like a Ron Weinland, who must realize it is simply not going to happen in their lifetime, the author of 2 Peter spiritualizes what was literally true to date and says "well...you gotta understand, a day with the Lord is as 1000 years..." In other words, time is spiiiiiiiiritual and "you people," have misunderstood.
1 Timothy 6:13-14
13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ...
Paul was telling Timothy to hang in there until Jesus came back soon in his time. He was not telling him to hang in there, die and see you Tim in the resurrection.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
"We" means them, not us. The dead spoken of were those believers who had died in the past few years not having received the promise, but not so late in the game that Paul had not given up on it meaning HIM and those that still were alive THEN. Paul went on in I Thessalonians 4 to address the disappointment and sorrow THEY for those dying before this all took place. It started to inject doubt, scoffing and loss of hope for THEM, not us. When Paul said..."we who are alive and remain..." he meant himself and them, not us.
2 Thessalonians was written to reinject hope even more with time grinding on and still no "soon" occurring. The hope of soon has faded and not it is a matter of faith that no matter what, THEY win and the bad people who bother THEM will get the axe from Jesus.
James 5:7-9
7 Be patient, then, brothers and sisters, until the Lord’s coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop, patiently waiting for the autumn and spring rains. 8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9 Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!
James
suspects time is not all that short after all. People have grumbling and
discouraged. Waiting is now more important than ever since the Judge is
"standing at the door." But he was standing at their
door, not ours. Now the Second Coming is like planting a crop and waiting
for the good harvest. In other words...."Ok, we understand that we may be
wrong about this soon and shortly business."
Hebrews 10:37
37 For, In just a little while,
he who is coming will come
and will not delay.
The sense of delay is now palpable in the church. Short has now become , "in just a little while," and "yes we understand it feels like it is delayed, but hang in there." (When things don't happen for Ron Weinland, he uses a form of the disappointment of delay by saying God is being ever so much more merciful than WE (read he) thought and WE (read I) have ever so much more time to do the work.)
Finally, time overtakes shortly and later overtakes sooner. The Apostle Paul gives it up and admits that he simply fought the good fight, kept the faith and will get his crown someday as will those that followed him. Time ran out and every one of those that used to be the WE and the US had to admit it was not so. Apologetic took over and the We and US of the New Testament became every last person over the next 2000 years that read the Book. We now read end time scripture meant for THEM as now meant for US today. We are probably just as wrong and will relive this old lesson in life.
Finally, and perhaps someone slipped this one in later when it was obvious...
Matthew 24:36
36 But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[a] but only the Father.
...well and Ron Weinland and thousands of other ministers of the
Gospel and zealous believers.
I don't like seeing things as I do. But it is more important
to me to see things as they are than to teach people that which is not
so. We do live in both the best of times and the worst of times. As
a kid I always wondered why Jesus had to come back if when, after a life lived,
we all just die and go to heaven? Why all the political drama, plagues,
vials, wrath, blood, vengeance, rods of iron and confusion?
Dare we say that even Jesus himself, as portrayed in the Gospels,
was mistaken about himself, soon and shortly? While we have an apologetic
for "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me..", could not Jesus
have finally realized he was wrong too and all that followed in the forming of
the NT scriptures was designed to keep moving and keep the Church alive with
the eternal carrot of the Second Coming?
Perhaps we have to discard this religious idea of a Second Coming
to go inside ourselves for a personal spirituality that does not lend itself to
such disappointments. If we wait and live long enough, we won't care if
Jesus came back in our lifetime anyway. We won't be here.
That is up to each of us to figure out for ourselves I suppose...
I'd like to credit and thank Glenn L. Hill author of Christianity's
Great Dilemma- Is Jesus Coming Again or Is He Not? for his own personal
honesty as a former Pastor and his book clearly showing the context of the
hopes and dreams that Jesus would return to those who knew him 2000 years ago
and how we got to our misunderstandings of it all today.
Dennis C. Diehl
DenniscDiehl@aol.com
DenniscDiehl@aol.com
27 comments:
What are you trying to do here? You are soooooooooooo going to burn forever. Without this carrot I would never get my followers to contribute to my well being. Sheesh..enough already!
Couple more weeks buster and you'll be singing a different tune!
Juan Rheinland
Very well stated. This was the main fact that started me on the way to where I am today. I could see that all this was a truism and that my former faith was totally unfounded and blind.
This is a bubble buster alright!
Very good post, Dennis. Yes, those words were written for that generation. Yeah, I bet there was a great falling away--when these words were proved false the first time.
But then what happened with the next generation? I am sure they had every reason to think, well, if wasn't them, it's sure to be us! I would think, "The Lord delays his coming," and blow this popsicle stand, but they saw that one coming and told me not to think that! Doh!
And 80+ generations later, we're still reading our own generation into it. It's been false now for every. single. one. of them. OH, now all of a sudden OURS is THE special one it was written to? What makes US so special? It was wrong 79 times in a row, but what, the 80th time is the charm?
Hahaha. ORLY? I see what you did there. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool billions of people for 2,000 years, shame on every single one of us.
Fool me once, shame on — shame on — you. Fool me ... well, you CAN get fooled again, darn it!
Bush was wrong again? (Didn't see THAT coming.)
I'm going to heaven when I die, Lt. Den.
Jethro, what does your comment have to do with anything?
Hey Jethro, does your Jesus drive a white GMC 5500 4x4? That's what my Jesus is gonna be drivin when I see him comin mongst the cloudsa heaven. Yes sir, He's gonna pull up alongside me, roll down the window and tell me to ride shotgun. After we get things cleaned up down here, we gonna ride off together to the Bar-Sinner Ranch where we gonna have a rodeo evry day, eat steak and drink Jack and Bud every night. Next day, we gonna get up and do it all agin. And a body will say to me, "Reckon this could be heaven." And I'll just say, "Yup."
Hi Dennis,
some good thoughts there. The question I have though is, if the gospels were written 30 to 40 yrs after the event and Revelation 70 to 100 yrs most of the people who heard Jesus would have already been dead so who was meant really?
Toby
" The question I have though is, if the gospels were written 30 to 40 yrs after the event and Revelation 70 to 100 yrs most of the people who heard Jesus would have already been dead so who was meant really?"
The idea of Jesus coming back evolved over time , ramping up from "soon" to "the final hour" .
Most theologians don't believe Jesus ever had a church in mind as that concept evolved out of his death . Initially the idea was probably that Jesus would push thr Romans right up to the edge and then God would intervene and all would be well. His death actually threw them in disaray for years until they evolved an explanation which included his immediate return. There were many alive between 30 AD up to the Fall of Jerusalem in 70. After that disaster, the church broke from Judaism and went Gentile adopting Paul's writings. Paul wrote in the 50's so his soon covered most living first generation types. It was later used and then pseudopigraphic books written in Paul's name, adding elements that would only evolve over time for the Church were added. Finally "Peter 1 and 2 were written clarifying that God does not see time like men do etc...
Revelation may have been written in the summer of 69 just prior to the fall of Jesusalem as a failed encouragement to the Christians that Jesus was going to arrive just in time. Of course, he did not.
long story I suppose
Dennis, you wrote: "...Perhaps we have to discard this religious idea of a Second Coming..."
That's a good idea for at least two reasons if nothing else:
1. The phrase "second coming" is nowhere found in the Bible.
2. After Christ was murdered, buried and resurrected, He visited His Father in Heaven for a short period of time and then He returned to earth for the second time, a "second coming" if you will, but He only hung around for about 40 days.
So, if one wants to think about Christ's comings, well perhaps they should Biblically-speaking consider a third coming, a fourth coming, a fifth coming..., but certainly never a "second coming."
I agree with you on that point: "...we have to discard this religious idea of a Second Coming..."
John
Thanks Dennis but I don't think that answers the question. "Most" theologians think Revelations was written 70 to 100 yrs after Jesus was supposed to have died. I know the Gospels have many things that are hard to understand and that seem to contradict and it has taken me over 40 yrs to realise that Paul's letters were written first but the Gospels seem to have been accepted from the beginning.(end of 1st century) My question is, did these peope imagine these things? (Christ's resurrection)or did they make it up and yet were prepared to die for it?
Toby
Since the "first coming" was in and of itself a concocted fiction, there can be no second coming anytime, anywhere. Let's be done with myths and fairy tales and get down to what is real.
I'm surprised we aren't breathlessly waiting for the return of George Washington. He, too, was set on a pedestal and his aura far exceeds what the real man was, great as that was. Would make about as much sense as this drivel about the "divine" Jesus.
"My question is, did these peope imagine these things? (Christ's resurrection)or did they make it up and yet were prepared to die for it?
Toby"
Depends how you date the Gospels. Some feel more and more that they never really arrived on the scene until the mid second century. Again, most believe they are not eyewitness accounts and the names affixed were added much later as they were originally anonymous gospels. Eusebius says that four is a good number because there are four directions. Of course, there were scores of other Gospels that didn't make the cut.
There are many good books on how the Gospels came to be. Just don't buy them at a fundamentalist book store. Bart Ehrman has some good books on the latest about Gospel origins.
We know that Matthew wrote his Birth stories not based on anything he knew in real time and space but in the style of Midrash where he went back into the OT to find scriptures that he could cobble together into the NT Jesus Birth Narratives. You see this in his "and thus it was fulfilled" statements in chapters 1 and 2. It all comes from the OT and because of that looks like fulfilled prophecy, but it was history written in reverse.
As for dying for something meaningful, people die for ideas all the time without meeting or knowing anything about the origins. Also, just because the Book says they died for this or that, does mean it actually happened. We have to get over the idea that when the Bible says something, it is actually what was said or what literally happened or didn't.
It's a big topic. Play around on this site for some good historic background on these things
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/index.html
I didn't read the article. I didn't have to--they are all the same. Same attack, same former pastor-insider spiel, same manipulation of facts--a true son of HWA--he taught you well.
I do have two comments on the subject however:
But before that I would like to remind 'Anonymous' at the top of the comments that nothing can combust and burn forever--anything made of matter will eventually burn UP and the ashes will be under our feet.
Ignorance of physical science and the scriptures caused your errors.
Point 1. The writers of the scriptures are writing in both a prophetic and contemporary voice when speaking of the Messiah's return.
WHY? They have to. Because believers have to measure it in both prophetic time and by our own lifetimes.
If the Messiah returns in a 1000, 2000 or 3000 years, none of us can live until then unless we are born near the end.
Everyone, like Paul and the apostles, anticipates that it is coming soon because this was the expectant attitude that the Messiah called for-'watch and pray.' To look for it as impending is correct for every generation. WHY?
Point 2. Because for every believer the ACTUAL coming of Messiah occurs at the end of our physical life. The urgency to prepare and come out of the sinful lifestyles of this world is incumbent upon us NOW because with human life, there is no guarantee of tomorrow.
If you are 70, 80, or 90 years old you are certainly 'in the last days' before Messiah returns because your life and opportunity to serve him will end soon--maybe this evening in your sleep, maybe in ten years, only He knows...
Therefore, the wording of the scriptural warnings is in fact correct in both the contemporary and 'age of man' sense.
---
But here is ZIETGEIST deception which drives this site:
That because HWA was a false prophet and opportunist who lived opulently off of idiots who DID NOT 'prove all things,' but rather sought to make the man a living idol, that therefore ALL who believe in a Maker and Messiah must also be wrong and deceived.
A shallow argument at best. The equally blind COGers who come slumming here for laughs are not being 'saved' from 'Herbie,' not a single one....
You should rename this website the 'Mad Hatter's Unbirthday Party.'
thanx 'editor,' for deleting my detailed response.
You just proved to about 10,000 of my onlookers that 1) your beliefs can't stand up to scrutiny and comparison, and 2) that this not a genuine blog when you delete divergent viewpoints.
Hi Dennis, Thanks for the link, I found "Die for a lie" interesting. I will spend some time on that site. Yet again the more I read the more I become convinced that we believe what we want to believe (or perhaps what we have been programmed to believe and it seems we can even do the programming ourselves!)
Toby
Burton Mack's, "Who Wrote the New Testament" is helpful plus gives a great background on all the various Christian and pre-Christian groups
Sinner writes:
"thanx 'editor,' for deleting my detailed response."
Actually your comment went directly into the SPAM folder. Google recognized it for what it was. Blame them, you self righteous hypocrite!
Is that what I'm doing here? I thought I was recovering from having been born into Armstrongism, but it turns out I'm just slumming.
By the way, the zeitgeist that drives this site could be better described as "HWA was a false prophet, and therefore we were deceived." The viewpoints of those who feel at home here differ greatly regarding "maker and messiah." Some are still true believers, such as yourself, others reject it completely, for their part. And yet somehow we all get along here quite nicely.
I myself am somewhere in the middle of that of spectrum. Upon reflection, I found no evidence in my experience to suggest that there is a higher power at work in my life. People talk about having a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ." But if I think I'm having a relationship with someone I can't even find, then I'm just kidding myself. As you can see, this has left me questioning everything. Is the God of the bible also the being who created the universe? What about bible prophecy, is it true, or just written later than supposed? Just because I am a true believer, does that mean that God has to have called me? Does God recognize the Armstrong movement? I'm just not so sure I know the answers to any of these questions anymore. My feelings about these things, in the absence of anything to stop them, periodically swing back and forth.
If you do find evidence among your experiences that God is working with you, the more power to you, sir. However, even if everything you say is true for you, that doesn't necessarily mean that any of it has to be true for me, because maybe your God really is working with you. I do you the honor of admitting that I can't speak to that. Although I don't expect it make you happy, it doesn't seem that my God has decided to work with me, despite my best efforts. But if it turns out you're just lecturing those whom God has decided not to call for now, don't you see how that would be pointless? Perhaps, getting your business all up in ours isn't the better part of wisdom or grace. It's possible that all you're doing is criticizing the judgement of God for who he decides to call and who he doesn't. Do us the same honor.
Jesus is coming. QUICK! Everybody look busy!
I'm with Andrew. I think we all here get along just fine. I personally believe Jesus is coming again and the Bible prophecies about a Beast, False Prophet, 10 leaders, 2 Witnesses, etc. are going to be fulfilled in time. It might not happen over night, but it will happen. Specially with what we are seeing all round that points to the decline of the US and the ongoing economic uncertainties in Europe. It's my choice to believe this. Regarding the time element concerning these prophecies doesn't 2 Peter 3:8 say that a day is like a thousand years to God and Romans 4:17 says God calls things that haven't happened as though they already have? He exists outside of time and space so He can look at the whole span of history--past, present and future--"in a moment" (Luke 4:5). It's like Brandon's explanation to Dunham in Fringe: "We all think of time as linear, right? Life is a journey. You're born, and then you die. And to get from one end to the other, there's only one way through. [He demonstrates by holding up a tube that's open at both ends and pouring water through it] Unless you look at it like this [He refills the tube with water and then traps the liquid inside with his fingers] and then you can see at any point. It's all happening at once." Thus, the way I see it, His return isn't just imminent. It's already happened. It just hasn't happened yet.
John said,." Thus, the way I see it, His return isn't just imminent. It's already happened. It just hasn't happened yet.
That would make sense of the 3 disciples seeing Jesus in a transfigured form before he even died and also the 24 elders praising Jesus for opening the seals when it hasn't happened yet.
Thanks for that it's something to think about. (It brings many complications though!)
Toby
"thanx 'editor,' for deleting my detailed response.
You just proved to about 10,000 of my onlookers that 1) your beliefs can't stand up to scrutiny and comparison, and 2) that this not a genuine blog when you delete divergent viewpoints."
Guess that means that Malm's blog is not genuine, since he deletes most divergent viewpoints.
thanks Andrew and John, good comments and it's enjoyable to actually talk these issues over instead of just one liners etc.
I feel the last fifteen years of study since being out of WCG have left me with a big overview of the origins, motives, and politics of the NT and early church as portrayed in print. I also have broken from the idea that just because it is in the Bible, it actually happened, happened that way, was said, was said that way or ever happened or said.
There is too much evidence that authors assigned are not the actual authors of some books.
I find it impossible to build an entire religious view based on the visions, bright lights and voices in the head of one man, Paul. I don't like the idea that he thinks he went to a third heaven but can't tell us about it. That smacks of being special but leaves no one with any real information. It is also a sign of mental illness.
Revelation is the same. Paul and John's visions in their heads is the basis for most beliefs in the NT. That is not smart of others to trust. If I said what they said, you'd all scorn me off the planet but because they did way back, it seems more credible. Time makes us believe the unbelievable.
Hundreds of years ago a Priest said Mary ascended bodily into heaven etc. Of course, there is no such idea in reality. Now it is a huge and required belief. Time makes the ridiculous credible or at least required reading.
It's a journey for sure...
Let's face it....
Ruminations of White Buffalo
1:1 I, Dionysus (origin of "Dennis"), servant of White Buffalo, was in the spirit on the Vernal Equinox.
1:2 And I saw a throne, and on the throne was a white buffalo and before the throne a sea of grass. And opposite the throne, the seven spirits of Wakan Tanka.
1:3 "Come up" said White Buffalo..for I must show you things which must shortly come to pass for the people."
1:4 So went up I did and saw things no man can see and live and heard things that I cannot repeat for now, trust me..."
1:5 And I saw all the nations of the earth and Washitu (white men), had screwed it all up big time....
.....
22:14 I Dionysus stand by these visions and they are true. Don't you dare change them for if you change them, your part in the Great Pow Wow will be zero and I , White Buffalo, will remove you from the Tee Pee forever..."
I think you'd think I had good drugs! 1500 years from now, I may have started a stir in the souls of men.
Is He Coming Again or is He Not?"
Yes.
Coming. Not. One or the other.
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