Wednesday, July 4, 2012

Happy 4th!



27 comments:

Anonymous said...

Ah yes, the giant phallus that those of you that have rejected God's truth worship.

Anonymous said...

Looks like Washington's Monument is jizzing.

Mish-Mash said...

I think we should be grateful for the freedoms we have left as they are disappearing fast. I'm proud to be an American. I also am proud my daughter was actually born 12 years ago today at 10:19pm. Just when all the fireworks were going off. She's a real firecracker and a true patriot.

God Bless the USA !

Byker Bob said...

Well, revisionists are frantically rushing around eradicating all vestiges of our origins as a Christian nation, but there's just too much stuff for them to handle.

These efforts were gradually started in about 1947 from what I understand. Prior to that, the fact that we were a Christian nation was rarely even questioned.

I really enjoyed rejoicing over our founding fathers' faith all day yesterday. Many former ACOGgers have a problem with that, because it's more of a spiritual version of HWA's genetic theories, and inherent in all of that is the fact that, yes we did forget and turn our backs on our values. But it's not the elitist exclusivist ways in which ol' racist Herbie taught. (You know, as in "Brethren, I am so happy for our colored brethren! In the millenium, after Christ returns and restores God's ways, they are all going to be teachers and priests in their homeland, Africa! It will be so wonderful because never again with they have to face racism!")

BB

Anonymous said...

"Well, revisionists are frantically rushing around eradicating all vestiges of our origins as a Christian nation, but there's just too much stuff for them to handle...."

Sigh. Any takers?


Paul R.

Jace said...

"any takers?"

LMAO! I nominate you Paul, go gettum!

I have way too mant things on my plate ATM to get involved in a knock-down-drag-out-brawl on this topic, as much as I might enjoy it.

@ BB: are you familiar with the Thomas Jefferson bible?

Anonymous said...

Actually Jace, when I saw BB's bold assertion, my shoulders slumped and I felt so very, very tired, because I knew that here will be another case of carefully laying out a body of evidence (or in the case of God/Christianity, lack of it) which Bob, bless his heart, will completely, blissfully ignore. Despite what Bob may think, or others, I actually have grown to like Bob. I really do. He just gets on my nerves when he ignores a serious, valid question, silently chalking it up to "they cannot understand things of the Spirit" or "pearls before swine."

It's funny that both Christian and atheist/agnostic sites both address this issue by beginning:

"(Atheists/Christians) are trying to rewrite history by claiming that America (was not founded on Christianity/was founded on Christianity).

The biggest misunderstanding is that as you turn the clock back, the more religious people were. I believed this until very recently- that "back then" everybody was religious. They weren't. There was a brief spark called the Enlightenment when Christianity took a backseat to Deism or atheism/agnosticism. I once scoffed at people's claim that Fundamental Christianity in America is a relatively recent event. It turns out to be true. There was a time when people were turning to reason and logic, to reality. And they were wearing powdered wigs at the time. If Bible Belt Christians could go back in a time machine to hang out with the Founding Fathers, they would come back shaken at the Satanic Godless/Atheist/Deistic Liberalism they would have found there.

What I cannot understand is that if this was to be a Christian nation, built upon Christian principles, then why wasn't it?

What would one expect from a nation founded on Christianity? Well, certainly not the promotion of freedom of religion, or the separation of Church and State. That is the opposite of founding a nation on a particular religion. That is a secular state guaranteeing civil liberties.

But I am wasting the skin on my fingertips. Jesus lives. 'Merica was explicitly founded on Jesus. Our ancestor was made out of magic dirt.

Paul R.

Anonymous said...

Byker Bob, just because you believe that Jesus found you a transmission for your hot rod, that does not make this a "Christian nation"
(Well, I'm teasing you a bit about the hot rod transmission you allege that Jesus found online for you!)

Byker Bob wrote, "revisionists are frantically rushing around eradicating all vestiges of our origins as a Christian nation, but there's just too much stuff for them to handle."

WHAT?!?!
What a bunch of "Liars for Jesus" crap that statement is! Byker Bob, I hope Jesus also found a good fire extinguisher online for you, because your pants are clearly on fire.
I'm not saying you are intentionally lying, but apparently you've been listening to too many "Assholes for Jesus" on Christian TV networks or others somewhere promoting this crap, or the clown-parade of "Liars for Jesus" on hokey Christian TV networks, or the lying slimeball David Barton whose crazy-garbage-history hokey Christian TV preachers have been eagerly lapping up.

Byker Bob, when you wrote that you wanted to see a quick nuclear strike in retaliation for the 9/11 attacks, I chalked it up to a knee-jerk reaction and thought you'd rethink it. But then awhile later, when you suggested that we in the United States should not necessarily kick out all people of Islamic faith, but rather make them feel so uncomfortable that they'd leave this country, I felt more worried for you.
And it wasn't that I felt so worried for you personally, but it's really more that I realized this is a sentiment echoed by so many Christians in this country.

Byker Bob wrote, "These efforts were gradually started in about 1947 from what I understand. Prior to that, the fact that we were a Christian nation was rarely even questioned."

While president in 1802, Thomas Jefferson wrote: "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State ... "

Byker Bob, that was in 1802, which, if my gradeschool math serves me right, is well before 1947.

I'm reminded of something that happened that I witnessed some years ago. My father-in-law Bill had someone named Marco washing his car for him. Marco started going overboard with the high pressure wand and it started taking paint off my father-in-law Bill's car, and when Bill saw paint coming off his new car, he rushed in and stopped Marco.
Bill turned to me and said, "He think's that thing is is his fucking dick!"

I also think many Christians think as if their belief in Jesus is "their fucking dick", too, and try to spray it all over the place with little regard for the damage they do(as they put bible scriptures on military assault rifles and want to kill all the Islamists they can while re-writing American history.)
So, Byker Bob, I have respect for those who you chacterize as, "frantically rushing around eradicating" the lies by such "fucking Jesus dicks"

Byker Bob, although we agree on other things, we apparently don't agree on this one.

-Norm

Anonymous said...

Here's a nice bit Thomas Jefferson drafted in 1777, which supported the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment, and freedom of conscience.
But please, follow David Barton's lead if you are a "Liar for Jesus", and remember that Thomas Jefferson wasn't that important, ..... even though he was the author of the Declaration of American Independence!
-----------------
An Act for establishing religious Freedom.
Whereas, Almighty God hath created the mind free;
That all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens, or by civil incapacitations tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and therefore are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, who being Lord, both of body and mind yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do,
That the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavouring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time;
That to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves is sinful and tyrannical;
That even the forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor, whose morals he would make his pattern, and whose powers he feels most persuasive to righteousness, and is withdrawing from the Ministry those temporary rewards, which, proceeding from an approbation of their personal conduct are an additional incitement to earnest and unremitting labours for the instruction of mankind;
That our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions any more than our opinions in physics or geometry,
That therefore the proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence, by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument, unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion, is depriving him injuriously of those privileges and advantages, to which, in common with his fellow citizens, he has a natural right,

(Part 2 to follow.)

Anonymous said...

(Here is part 2 of 2)

"That it tends only to corrupt the principles of that very Religion it is meant to encourage, by bribing with a monopoly of worldly honours and emoluments those who will externally profess and conform to it;
That though indeed, these are criminal who do not withstand such temptation, yet neither are those innocent who lay the bait in their way;
That to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous fallacy which at once destroys all religious liberty because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own;
That it is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government, for its officers to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order;
And finally, that Truth is great, and will prevail if left to herself, that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict, unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons free argument and debate, errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them:
Be it enacted by General Assembly that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of Religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge or affect their civil capacities. And though we well know that this Assembly elected by the people for the ordinary purposes of Legislation only, have no power to restrain the acts of succeeding Assemblies constituted with powers equal to our own, and that therefore to declare this act irrevocable would be of no effect in law; yet we are free to declare, and do declare that the rights hereby asserted, are of the natural rights of mankind, and that if any act shall be hereafter passed to repeal the present or to narrow its operation, such act will be an infringement of natural right.
-Thomas Jefferson
-----------------


Sounds like Thomas Jefferson wanted to protect the people of the United States against the likes of lying Christian religious conmen like David Barton, Herbert Armstrong, and Paul and Jan Crouch, as well as predators of whatever other religions might be out on the prowl.

Norm

Allen C. Dexter said...

The more christian this nation becomes, the less free it becomes. The more the religious right grows in power, the more we look like the oppressive world of the past that my ancestors fought and some died to escape from. Religions do not promote freedom. Never have. Never will.

You live in a dream world of nonsense, BB, likeable a guy as you are otherwise.

Mish-Mash said...

Hey everybody, cut Byker Bob a break. I agree with him. We are all entitled to our opinions, if you don't believe in God anymore fine. But your language also reveals your level of class. If you do believe in God great, that doesn't make you a better person. You can be a jerk and believe in God, such as COGers. Or you could be middle of the road such as Byker Bob and myself. Ok, so lay off people. And if you want to criticize me, blah, blah, blah, I got my hands over my ears I can't hear you !

Retired Prof said...

Mish-Mash, it's admirable of you to stand up for Byker Bob, but from what I've seen it's not necessary. He's well centered enough not to be bowled over by a few objections to his opinions. In the give and take he can both give and take.

Also, you learn more by turning a thoughtful ear to criticism than a deaf one.

Anonymous said...

"Also, you learn more by turning a thoughtful ear to criticism than a deaf one."

Hear, hear!

Byker Bob said...

Well, I've been bowled over, but not by anyone's comments. Business has come roaring back over the past two months, and I've been working a lot of hours. I'm not complaining, as it's been really awesome.

First, yes, I am familiar with the Jefferson Bible. TJ performed a very interesting intellectual exercise. What he did might be referred to as parsing, which is something I've often done with the Bible at various stages myself. The fact is that he did come up with a remnant which he regarded as having value. During WW II, I understand that chaplains with limited supplies of Bibles would actually cut single pages from the ones they did have, pass them out, and the soldiers who received them derived much comfort and understanding just from the one page they had!

Regardless of our opinions of David Barton, you guys have the same problem I had when I was an atheist. Does he shade things a bit in his favor? Yes, no question about that. However, he has certainly done a very thorough job of finding primary source quotations from the majority of our founding fathers. We can tar and feather Barton, possibly even rightly so, but the quotations and all of the engravings on our national historic monuments are still there.

BB

Byker Bob said...

I think we're up against two dynamics here. First, as a group, we tend to categorically reject any of the impliments of our spiritual rape by HWA. You're not going to find many ex-churchagoddians who embrace the science of global warming, who believe in the long wave economic cycles of Nikkolai Kondratiev, or who want to consider that the USA might have been founded based on the Christian principles which came out of the Protestant Reformation. That is all part of a reflexive defense mechanism. Never again! Right?

Secondly, I believe we are also faced with divergent generational perspectives. I spent my youth, growing up in a northern predominantly Democrat state, during the 1950s and 1960s. I attended public schools. Let me share some of that experience with you.

Up until Mad Maddie went on the rampage with her Supreme Court suit, we began our day with either the teacher, or different students reading passages from the Bible. Then we would recite Jesus' prayer model, what we then referred to as the "Our Father". We would then pledge allegiance to the American flag, and sing a patriotic song, either the Star Spangled Banner, or "My Country tis of thee".

Prior to dismissal for lunch, one of the students would ask the blessing on our food.

If we happened to have a student body assembly, we would also have prayer and Bible reading, and the pledge of allegiance.

Come Christmas time, we would sing mostly religious carols in the classroom in the days leading up. We would also have the Christmas pageant during which students would don robes and sandals to play the various Biblical characters surrounding the birth of Jesus. This pageant was also put on for the community at large on one of the evenings prior to Christmas day.

While I was in grade school, public school would let out two hours early, so that the students could go to their local church for religious classes.

This happened during my lifetime, and was our daily routine. That was a time when it wasn't only the southern states and NASCAR who remembered our national heritage and culture. It was everywhere, a concept that it might be difficult for those born later to wrap their minds around!

BB

Byker Bob said...

One correction. The early dismissal to go to church was on Wednesday each week, not an every day occurrence.

BTW, you also have to remember that Congress and the military always have had chaplains and prayer, in an American court of law you always swear on the Bible to tell the truth so help you God, God's name in permanently chiselled in numerous stone monuments, and up to a point, it was almost a ritual for the press to photograph and interview our presidents and their families as they exited church services on Sunday.

Believe me, there was a time when I disdained all of this stuff too. In the height of my post-Armstrong explorations, I wished men and women could be more like the animals, just running around sniffing each others' butts and doing each other. Being a biker seemed to me at that time to be the total solution to Armstrongism.
But, even that didn't get rid of the void I felt in my life.

BB

Byker Bob said...

Norm:

I'm well aware that the Constitution provides not only for freedom of religion, but also freedom from religion. That's something many Christians have always allowed for.

Also, each founding father had unique perspective. Jefferson and Franklin are often quoted by non-believers, because they seemed to take the time to consider the daily plight in society of those who do not believe.

Constructive criticism? Years ago, I used to major in creative swearing, carefully crafting my language to deliberately offend and run off the people whom I considered to be my chief opponents, so there are very few syllables or sounds you could use that would offend me personally. However, there are some for whom your language invalidates the sometimes good points you are attempting to make. We're not going to be successful as a group in educating Armstrongites out of a mindset if they continually see crude and blasphemous language here.

BB

Anonymous said...

I know for a fact that Thomas Jefferson drove a Chevy S-10 with stars n bars mudflaps, covered with pro-life bumper stickers and an I BRK 4 JSUS vanity plate.

You atheists are just bitter because herbie made you mad at gawd!

Douglas Becker said...

used to major in creative swearing, carefully crafting my language to deliberately offend and run off the people whom I considered to be my chief opponents

But here you are, splitting an infinitive.

Anonymous said...

:....you guys have the same problem I had when I was an atheist. Does he shade things a bit in his favor?"

Translation:
Since you're an atheist, you'll be used to using biased sources, because you are godless and have no morality. So lying for Jesus isn't a problem because you atheists lie for the Devil as well.

Paul R.

Anonymous said...

So Bob, in regards to your heartwarming visions of young freshly scrubbed white kids worshipping Jesus and the Merican Flag, ummm, was it always this way? Were Merican kids always expected to take part in this ritual? Did the Founding Fathers have this in mind when framing our original documents? And what does it have to do with your original point? You imply that prior to 1947 it was all Jesus School. Was it?

I get all weepy when I think of eager young white kids bowing before Jesus and the Flag while slightly older kids were being blown from here to Oz in police actions. Keep it coming Bob. I need it. I would like to think that a close relative of mine who was a Marine in Vietnam joined, as he said, to bow to fate (the upcoming draft board). The thought of him joining, as so many did, to fight for Jesus and the Flag make nauseous.

Paul R.

Paul R.

Anonymous said...

"Being a biker seemed to me at that time to be the total solution to Armstrongism.
But, even that didn't get rid of the void I felt in my life."

Sorry there was a void and you had to ride motorcycles.



Paul R.

Anonymous said...

"Believe me, there was a time when I disdained all of this stuff too."


Yeah, I'm really kicking the goads here. Like I do with the evidence for God, and the evidence that evolution is a big lie. I just have pretend it doesn't exist.

But anyway, once again, the question is whether it has always been this way; did the Founding Fathers promote this in the founding documents? Was this their intention? PS...you do know that our chaplains were always called upon to service all faiths? Not just Jesus War Faith.

Paul R.

Anonymous said...

BB writes, Regardless of our opinions of David Barton.... Does he shade things a bit in his favor?

I would say no, but rather, that Barton is one of many blatant "Liars for Jesus"

Norm

Byker Bob said...

".....had to ride a motorcycle...."

No, it's more than that. The Nik Colyer books were not around when I began riding, but check out the philosophy at channelingbikerbob.com

BB

Anonymous said...

Bob,

I am afraid of motorcycles. Though those old motorcycles, like the one Lawrence of Arabia rode, look pretty damn cool. May try it one day when life settles down.


Paul R.