Friday, March 22, 2013

Thiel: Let Them Die of Cholera, Jesus Will Fix It Later



A few days ago the non-ordained self-appointed prophet Thiel posted an entry on his blog proclaiming that his mini-personality cult is a church of LOVE.

The self-appointed prophet stated:

Jesus also taught:
35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
Most religions, however, that profess Christ chose to allow warfare and other activities that do not show love to one’s neighbor...

Love, not war, is what life is supposed to be all about.
That love though only extends as far as Thiel's  video den.  He only loves those sitting in his room and who are part of his personality cult.  That love certainly does NOT extend to his neighbor or the stranger down the street and especially to the stranger in a foreign land.

Today he has another entry up about today being  UN World Water Day.  The prophet states:

March 22, 2013 has been designated as “Global Water Day” by the United Nations.  Its emphasis this year has to do with  a particular aspect of sanitation, but it also wants people to realize the difficulties many face simply to get safe water:
He then quotes info about how people in third world countries have to trek long distances for water in sometimes hostile areas.  Thiel also quotes information about the need for good sanitation to prevent diseases like cholera.

The prophet launches into his biblical interpretation of what he deems necessary:

Without mentioning here what the Bible teaches about weather and rain,  a point about sanitation should be considered now.  Notice the following:
12 “Also you shall have a place outside the camp, where you may go out; 13 and you shall have an implement among your equipment, and when you sit down outside, you shall dig with it and turn and cover your refuse. 14 For the Lord your God walks in the midst of your camp, to deliver you and give your enemies over to you; therefore your camp shall be holy, that He may see no unclean thing among you, and turn away from you.  (Deuteronomy 23:12-14)

And then adds his interpretation to the above:

So, the Bible teaches that there should be places designated for defecation and that human feces should be covered and not seen.  This was written over three thousand years ago and still would improve human health today if places that do not heed this would now do so.

While obviously it would be helpful to have toilets in private locations, as far as the water-borne diseases like cholera, dysentery, and diarrhea that accompany poor elimination habits, if the biblical injunction to cover human feces was followed, the incidents of those diseases would be reduced.

The laws of God work and will be implemented around the world when Jesus returns and sets up His kingdom.  But until then, there are even more troubles and sorrows expected.

Notice he says, "While obviously it would be helpful to have clean toilets in private locations..."  Obviously the prophet also does not care enough to help with that idea, unlike the thousands of REAL Christians in relief organizations who do.

All the non-ordained prophet will do is say,  "Jesus will fix it when he gets back, but until then more sorrows are to be expected."  How about getting off your lazy self-serving ass and do something profitable in the meantime?  How about contributing to the organizations that help these people?  As much as I pick on UCG, at least there are people in the church who have the concern to actually reach out and make a difference, unlike YOU.  Throwing Bible verses at people as a weapon accomplishes nothing other than making you look like a fool.  If your Kingdom of God is such a special place then why not make that kingdom tangible for the hurting today?  You bring shame upon the Churches of God.

49 comments:

DennisCDiehl said...

12 “Also you shall have a place outside the camp, where you may go out; 13 and you shall have an implement among your equipment, and when you sit down outside, you shall dig with it and turn and cover your refuse. 14 For the Lord your God walks in the midst of your camp,

It is obvious from scripture that the Cultic Deity makes this rule because he does not want to STEP in any POO POO when he walks in the midst of the camp...whatever that means!

If you wish an excellent Sabbath weekend study on the absurdity of the Exodus story...try wading through this:

http://www.websitesonadime.com/ffwic/exodus.htm

As an example as spoke of by the NON-Prophet Bob..
These inspired verses enshrine, too, for our admiration, material details: even the ordinary personal necessities of nature must be relieved "without the camp," and covered up by digging with a paddle (Deut. 23: 13 ); the 603,500-odd valiant soldiers of God were commanded by God: "Thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon" for this digging operation! There must have been an advance revelation of the peculiar pattern of these funny weapons, with a spear-point on one end and a scavenger-paddle on the other, for the Chosen to have got them manufactured to special order by the arinourers of Egypt. And it is to be wondered how the non-combatants, women-folk and little children, did their digging on these occasions, unless they borrowed some warrior-paddle not then in use, or had a paddle-armed soldier for an escort when they went perforce "without the camp." Just think for a moment, and then admire the strange providence of God: two and a half millions of his Chosen People, old and young, sick and infirm, men, women, and children, trotting at all hours of day and night, from the more central parts of the encampment some twelve miles out and back, to find a suitable spot "without the camp" to respond to their several calls; and often even before they got back home, having to turn and trek all over again! And every mother's son and daughter of the "hosts of God" must make an average of six miles, both ways, several times daily."
"

Anonymous said...

Bob is right, though, or at least your interpretation of Bob's comments- why bother when Jesus is going to fix everything. Christians should not be hung up on this fleshly existence. The time and energy spent in the useless attempt to "fix" mankind's problems could be spent in the more important endeavor of saving men's souls. What is perfect health going to do for you if you aren't saved? In this aspect, science is useless. Let us all focus on what happens after death as opposed to this fleeting, futile life.

Paul Ray

Anonymous said...

Paul says..

Let us all focus on what happens after death as opposed to this fleeting, futile life.

How do we focus on death in this fleeting futil life???

Oh yeah...Jesus said..."I have come to bring death and to bring it more abundantly to be focused upon..."

I'm assuming your focusing on your own mortality Paul and would not think this to be the purpose of life...focusing on death and all?

What a great outlook to have when raising small children. "Ummm...let's not get too happy over there kids and no you can't give your time to those losers in Africa. It will be fixed when you die so rejoice and smiiiiles everyone!" Sheesh....

Nothing is going to get "fixed," I agree.

M.T.Living


Assistant Deacon said...

Would love to hear Bob Thiel or Paul Ray expound on Matt. 25:34-46.

Sometimes, it's impossible to even know what to say here.

Joe Moeller said...

With this kind of attitude why bother with anything?

Why brush your teeth, comb your hair, mow the lawn, or any of the many other mundane maintenance items in life.

Afterall, it will all "burn up" someday. Whether believer or unbeliever, this is a true fact. Someday the Earth will be absorbed by the expanding red giant sun according to the Science channel.

It is the exercise that matters. Ecclesiastes is right, that all things are dust in the end. BUT... the character that you develop by doing the right things in the moment, is (as the commercial says) PRICELESS.

Common decent human concern requires us to care and to do what we can in the situations we encounter. Fatalism is not a Christian attitude.

Luv,
Joe Moeller
Cody, WY

Anonymous said...

Perhaps a huge earthquake will take down the NON Prophet Thiels town where food, water and potties are no available for a few months. We can all send cards wishing him well and that we are thinking of him and look forward to the time when Jesus fixes it all.

Oh...and that we will pray for him and wish him warm and filled soon.

Anonymous said...

Bob Thiel is competing with Dave Pack for the "hell no, we don't help people outside our church..." fool of Millennium award.

Of course, they get this trash mind from many parts of the Bible which also is not real big on helping outside their small world whether Israelite or NT Church. Seems to be no evidence in the Book on the "God is Love" crowd actually having any.

Let's face it. A guy so anal as to first comment on "We in the Living Church of God do not believe in crosses..." before, "We in the Living Church of God also send our love and support to those who have lost loved ones in this terrible tragedy..and deeply appreciate the love shown by the community outside our fellowship" is not really a man of any real God anyway.

Would be great if Bob's small group and Dave's small group told Bob and Dave next time they want something material from the brethren..."Be warmed and be filled and we'll pray for you to get what you need ...but we can't personally help you out right now"

M.T.Pantry

Anonymous said...

Want to know where this attitude came from?

HWA:

"WE ARE NOT A CHARITABLE TRUST, WE ARE A CHURCH"

That says it all.

Head Usher said...


AICF says it all.

HWA's charity was for the rich, never for the poor. HWA wanted to rub shoulders in rarified atmospheres, not in shelters or soup kitchens.

All Armstrongite COGs are led by people trying to imitate HWA to one degree or another. None of them are led by people trying to imitate Jesus.

Anonymous said...

The population is exploding, especially in underdeveloped countries. If we don't run out of one resource, we will run out of another. Unless those people get their population under control, we will all be royally screwed, sooner or later. We stupidly take more and more of them so that they can wipe us out also. Most people in the West already spend the whole lives paying for the land under their house (not the house itself) or apartment (pay off the landlord's land). Duh.

Joe Moeller said...

90% of AICF was fluff, vanity and ego trip.

However, there was funding for a school for the mentally handicapped in Jordan, aid to the pygmy tribes in Africa, and a project that aided Northern Tribes people in Thailand. The Legacy Institute, with Leon Sexton continues with this tireless work even today in Thailand.

Joe Moeller
Cody, WY

G.G. said...

35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine,
you did for me.
Gee! This almost makes me feel like a Christian, spouting bible verses and all. I do believe in "the Golden Rule" but I'm not sure where it came from. I was a Methodist as a child--a pretty low key Golden Rule type of experience as I remember it. I absolutely abhor authoritarianism however. G.G.

Painful Truth said...

Thiel uses the bible as a science book and lectures the world.

What a fucking moron.

Questeruk said...

It was Pack, after the New Orleans flooding disaster that proclaimed that not only should people NOT offer any help, but seeing that it was God that brought the hurricane to New Orleans to punish the people living there, anyone offering aid was going directly against God in doing so.

Great Christian attitude!!

Anonymous said...

"Let us all focus on what happens after death as opposed to this fleeting, futile life."

Maybe this life is all we got.

To paraphrase the bible: If in this life only we have hope, we of all men are the biggest suckers.

Drunken Friday Night (Sabbath!) Sinner.

Head Usher said...

Dr. Hoeh had some relationship during the 70's and 80's with Jean-Pierre Hallet who operated The Pygmy Fund. WCG might have contributed some money, but that was an indpendent NGO. It was not a church-run relief project.

The projects in Jordan and Thailand were related to HWA's desire to rub shoulders with royalty. Most world leaders didn't want to tarnish their reputations by being connected to HWA. I guess King Hussein and Queen Sirikit were content to use HWA for whatever they could get out of him. HWA was willing to pay for photo-ops, but probably didn't care much how those funds got used so long as it made him look good. Sending AC students as volunteers was even better because that was a resource other than money. A win-win, I guess.

These AICF projects were for HWA what the "People Do" advertising campaign was for Chevron.



I need a photo-opportunity,
I want a shot at redemption!
Don't want to end up a cartoon,
In a cartoon graveyard.
Paul Simon, You Can Call Me Al, Graceland

Anonymous said...

"Great Christian attitude!!"

Christians are perpetual victims (suckers) and a lot of ex-Christians have not clued in yet.

Anonymous said...

If we didn't send them clothes, they'd still be walking around naked.

Steve Kisack said...

DennisCDiehl said...
It is obvious from scripture that the Cultic Deity makes this rule because he does not want to STEP in any POO POO when he walks in the midst of the camp...whatever that means!

MY COMMENT: It seems strange, but where should they take a dump? They're going to have to go somewhere. If they started pissin' and shittin' close to their living quarters, it would smell like places I've been in Southeast Asia where urine is running down the middle of dirt streets.

Anonymous said...
Bob is right, though, or at least your interpretation of Bob's comments- why bother when Jesus is going to fix everything. Christians should not be hung up on this fleshly existence. The time and energy spent in the useless attempt to "fix" mankind's problems could be spent in the more important endeavor of saving men's souls. What is perfect health going to do for you if you aren't saved? In this aspect, science is useless. Let us all focus on what happens after death as opposed to this fleeting, futile life.

Paul Ray

MY COMMENT: I think many who commented in the negative missed your point.

Lake of Fire Church of God said...

This is completely off topic (or maybe its not), but President Obama finished his Middle East trip with a visit to Petra:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation-world/sns-rt-us-usa-mideast-obamabre92m02u-20130323,0,7613488.story

Personally, I find it funny that a US President made it to the "Place of Safety" from the Great Tribulation before anyone from the WCG and its 700+ Splinter groups!

Richard

Corky said...

I agree with anonymous, over population will destroy us even if nothing else does. Even the population of the world today is not sustainable for very much longer. It should have been curbed hundreds of years ago, which proves that humans have no foresight. If your people are starving - quit breeding.

Leonardo said...

Corky, with respect to population demographics, you might find the following book interesting. Not saying that I agree with everything the author says, but it tells a very different story than the one commonly believed:

http://www.amazon.com/How-Civilizations-Die-Islam-Dying/dp/159698273X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1364064373&sr=1-1&keywords=how+civilizations+die

Anonymous said...


"I agree with anonymous, over population will destroy us even if nothing else does. Even the population of the world today is not sustainable for very much longer."

You might be right, or you might not be. Thomas Malthus in the 1800's thought everyone was going to have starved long ago. What happened? Innovation happened. We figured out how to artificially fix nitrogen. If we weren't fixing nitrogen in factories, it is probable there would not be enough nitrogen being fixed by natural processes to support the agriculture necessary to feed the current population. OTOH, obviously our technologies (innovation) have begun to compromise our environment, and the ecological movement isn't happy about that, and they have a valid point, to be sure. But we have no idea what the future holds, both in terms of hope of innovation and the perils of a species that is just smart enough to get itself into real trouble.

"It should have been curbed hundreds of years ago, which proves that humans have no foresight."

I wouldn't say humans have no foresight. I would say that humans can't agree on much, and so we've never had a world dictator capable of enforcing a single vision for the future upon humanity. All we had to do was lose WW2 and your dreams of a progressive utopian socialist society would have been realized, complete with population curbing measures! Forget about money, freedom is the root of all evil (sarcasm).

"If your people are starving - quit breeding."

People have never starved yet because of overpopulation. They starve because their political leaders are idiots who don't give a shit about their people.

Leonardo said...

Anonymous 12:15 wrote: "People have never starved yet because of overpopulation. They starve because their political leaders are idiots who don't give a shit about their people."


It's true, Corky. Many of the folks who specialize in this area tell us that the most common factor involved in starvation is either terribly incompetent leadership, or leadership that intentionally uses starvation as a political weapon, diverts foreign aid away from the intended beneficiaries, etc. Africa is perhaps the worst example of this unfortunate reality. Though in modern times Stalin may have set the precedent in 1932-33 by purposefully starving the Ukraine and killing 7 million of his own subjects.

Numerous agronomists say the earth can produce more than enough food for present populations. It's the leadership factor that remain the "pebbles in the gearbox" which cause the heart-rending suffering we so often see played out on our TV screens.

And the "quit breeding" strategy will never work, at least from the perspective of the power-hungry leaders. For over time this would only create a stronger, more healthy population, one that will eventually start asking questions, and realizing that the leadership doesn't give a rodent's behind for them, and who may even decide to take action to solve their own plight. Not exactly something to be desired in the halls (or huts) of power.

Many folks raised in the developed western world wrongly assume that because THEY have a kindly and proactive attitude toward the starving masses and would like to see such problems eradicated, that therefore the political leaders of other cultures have the same constructive attitudes. But as the devil (or was it Porgy?) sang to Bess in the famous musical, "It ain't necessarily so!"

Byker Bob said...

Seriously, if anyone is outraged by this type of "Christian" attitude, and really wants to do something about it, I'd suggest contributing to James and Betty Robson's Water for Life organization. I do. Basically, it funds the digging of wells in local African villages, so that everyone can have clean water. They've got the resources right there on their own continent, but lack the financial capabilities to access them.

I used to just get sick to my stomach and angry that Armstrongism would publish pictures of starving African children on its magazines, exploiting them to preach it's endtime "gospel" message, but then forbid members from doing anything to help them.

Real Christians help those in need.

BB

Leonardo said...

But to be fair, Byker Bob, individual members often DID donate to such charities, even if it wasn't necessarily officially encouraged by the hierarchy. And I suspect at least some of them still do.

For example, I know for a fact that Dr. Hoeh donated sizable amounts of his own money to The Pygmy Fund. So much so that Jean Pierre Halle once mentioned that Dr. Hoeh was his biggest single donor, and to a great degree was responsible for keeping the Efe pygmies from literally going extinct in the 70's and '80's.

And I helped Dr. Hoeh once assist a representative from a poor country find an old and beat-up used bulldozer to help his people with simple construction projects. And this was not a country that HWA was courting for photo opps.

Just telling the other side of the story.

Byker Bob said...

Leo, they disobeyed. And, God bless them for that! It's one of those random unexplainable factors that makes us realize that perhaps some in Armstrongism were "accidently" converted Christians, in spite of what we were taught. I think what Doc Hoeh did in this case was awesome! But, the fact remains that these philanthropists were violating official church policy, obviously not having had their minds totally locked down by the people claiming to have a double portion of the Holy Spirit.

BB

Leonardo said...

Well, that's true. In fact, such "disobedience" probably saved a number of marriages.

I remember a guy who, fairly new as a member (along with his wife), upon reading GTA's magnum opus - The Plain Truth About Child Rearing - set about to raise his kids "God's way" by beating his four toddlers into proper submission. The wife though, was insightful enough to see right through the nonsense of this God-ordained "beat the hell out of these carnal little brats" approach and had a bit of a talk with her husband: You're ruining our family! So stop this nonsense, or I'm leaving, and I'll be taking the kids with me!

Thankfully, he was smart enough to listen to what she had to say, dropped most of GTA's advice, and they went on to raise a very decent family. One can only speculate as to what would have happened had both husband AND wife completely submitted to Church authority on this issue.

Anonymous said...

Malthus will be proven right in the end. Technology is just kicking the can down the road, not solving the real problem. Treating the effect, not the cause.

Anonymous said...

Armstrong said the gospel could not be preached to those who could not read. What he didn't know was that in the time of Jesus, 90% of the people were illiterate, and that would no doubt included 90% of the church.

Leonardo said...

Anonymous 6:03 wrote: "Malthus will be proven right in the end. Technology is just kicking the can down the road, not solving the real problem. Treating the effect, not the cause."

Could you explain your position in a little more detail, Anon? - such as providing specific reasons you think this to be the case. As currently stated, it's nothing more than an unsubstantiated assertion, which carries little weight.

Have you ever read any of the works of the late Julian Simon? You might try his seminal book THE ULTIMATE RESOURCE. Just consider the pathetic real-world track record doomsdayers have shown about this, that or the other "crisis" about to take down mankind. Chicken Little's ("The sky is falling! The sky is falling!!") have existed in great numbers throughout history, but they almost NEVER get it right. Simon discusses this phenomenon, and shows precisely WHY they have virtually ALWAYS been wrong, and why they will continue to be wrong out into the future. Simon's compelling arguments really threw my "end-time beliefs" into a tizzy when I first confronted them. Documented facts and well-argued case studies often do that.

Anonymous said...

If the human race keeps growing at the current rate, in 2500 years, the weight of people on the earth will exceed the weight of the earth. Clearly, the growth rate is not sustainable. Something has to give. The question is what and when. When we run out of oil, that might do it. In about 50 years. But nobody knows because the Saudis lie about their reserves so they can pump and more oil (an OPEC agreement states that the amount they can is in proportion to their reserves).

Leonardo said...

You're referring to a highly theoretical notion called the "carrying capacity" of planet earth. The problem with that it that there's a tremendous lack of actual evidence for it, or at least much scientific consensus about it. Just too many assumed premises have to be granted as givens for this scenario to work out as predicted.

But to the issue of energy, or more specifically, fossil fuels: Do read any one of Simon's many books, or at least give his insights a chance by briefly reading about them out on the Internet. He clearly demonstrates that "experts" have been wrongly assuming an end to oil capacity for a long time now, but they've been consistently wrong. Why? Because such worries are always founded upon oil retrieval based on the very best CURRENT technologies. But a new or improved method of extracting oil out of the deep earth is inevitably found, or new ways of drilling far deeper than ever before then pushes that round of concerns FAR out into the future. Then the next cycle of fear-mongering starts all over again, only to have the same results repeated: when human creativity is allowed to discover ever improved technologies they again sweep aside such worries. This history of oil production is very clearly documented, and Simon does a wonderful job of explaining it.

And that's just one area. He covers many different resources on earth that people always worry about running out of. And time and again the same thing happens. This is all a matter of objective history. No, it's not what prophecy buffs want to hear, but it's true nonetheless.

Simon himself in his early years in academia used to be a doomsdayer. I heard him give a lecture once, and someone in the audience asked why he changed, and he said what changed his previous views was a willingness to confront the actual historical facts, rather than projected academic models founded on ideologically-based speculations.

I suggest we do the same. Yes, it may prove a severe blow to our beliefs about the end-time, but truth should be our goal, not ideological speculations.

Velvet said...

"Would love to hear Bob Thiel or Paul Ray expound on Matt. 25:34-46"

WHY

Velvet said...

"Common decent human concern requires us to care and to do what we can in the situations we encounter. Fatalism is not a Christian attitude."

I agree with Joe.

Yes, even I will admit, the Church had a completely fatalistic attitude, at least by the mid-1980s, it certainly did. We were encouraged not to hold mortgages (not that mortgages are a good thing in the first place, but I digress), to live outside of major urban centres, and generally to just live out our lives waiting for "the End."

Now that I'm older, I'm a lot more circumspect about this stuff.

Velvet said...

"Oh...and that we will pray for him and wish him warm and filled soon."

The major prophets (the actual prophets, I mean) make no bones about the fact that we are instructed not to pray for those who prophesy falsely. Just FYI.

Velvet said...

"WE ARE NOT A CHARITABLE TRUST, WE ARE A CHURCH"

When I was growing up (mid-70s to late '80s), the fun thing to say was "Charity begins at home!"

Now, while I haven't ever personally seen it, apparently my area saw a huge decrease in membership, when the third tithe payments were cut off.

I personally think the far worse (and un-Biblical) mistake the Church made, was to insist we spend our second tithe living it up, and for our own advantage; that is NOT what the Bible says to do with your excess second tithe.

Thielogical Bob may have departed from the Church's teachings in most respects (as do all of the splinter groups), but his attitude problem is demonstrative of some points where the Church did actually miss the mark. In my opinion.

Velvet said...

And conversely, for a different perspective on "the Church was never charitable," local congregations in this province supported the Food Bank, decades before the changes; there was even a "church garden" on the grounds of one of the members' agricultural lands, so those in need (the Food Bank, not just those on third tithe) would have fresh produce during the growing season (which is not that long up here).

My parents, whatever their other personal failings, at least always opened our home to those in need. Not just Church members, either.

Presently, instead of a "coffee fund" for after-services refreshments, the collected cash goes to an African school sponsored by the Church...Pastor has it fixed so the money goes direct, however; the Church doesn't grab a penny of it.

That said, when I was growing up, the Victoria congregation, we never would have even contemplated stuff like that. We heard "Charity begins at home," a lot.

Velvet said...

"...seeing that it was God that brought the hurricane to New Orleans to punish the people living there, "

Soooo...the Packatollah actually agreed with professing Christian Evangelical Pat Robertson on this? I'm sorry, how is RCG "holding fast to the truth" again?

Oh, right. It's not.

Velvet said...

"But to be fair, Byker Bob, individual members often DID donate to such charities,"

Bob's accusation is not without merit; though I have heard that there were members in my current area, and overseas, who donated to such charities all the way through, that was not my experience, growing up in the Church.

Then again, the Bible says not to broadcast our good deeds...so maybe we were more charitable in the Church than everyone is accusing us of (though the ministry did discourage it, as I noted above). God knows (literally!) anyway.

Velvet said...

"I think what Doc Hoeh did in this case was awesome!"

Maybe what he did in this case...but if the AR reports are true, Hoeh's bad fruits far outweigh any good ones he may have "accidentally" done.

Although I find it mildly insulting that you correlate any agreement with Biblical Christian principles on the part of members of the Church, to be "accidental" Bob. We were, and some of us are still, good Christians, or that's what we are aiming for, anyway. We don't follow men, and never did (and the Church always taught us never to follow men anyway), we follow the Living Head of the Church.

If you think that makes us "accidental" Christians, that speaks more to the deception of your own "theology," than any perception of us, as a whole. Becoming Christian is not an "accident" it is a choice, made of one's own free will. Whether or not any of us are were good Christians, that remains for God to judge. Not you, not me, not anyone else. But I will leave this dead horse alone now.....

Byker Bob said...

Well, Velvet, you'll have to excuse me for thinking that most Armstrongites are not Christians. I hadn't realized that, until several years ago on another forum when an extremely persuasive poster named Agnostic/Atheist made a very strong case for it, and I could not fault her logic, so it stuck and became part of my beliefs.

BB

Velvet said...

"I hadn't realized that, until several years ago on another forum when an extremely persuasive poster named Agnostic/Atheist made a very strong case for it, and I could not fault her logic, so it stuck and became part of my beliefs."

Yeah, I made that argument. I was wrong, and have since repented of that argument. If I have led you down the wrong path, and you continue to have that as part of your beliefs, I apologize to both you and to God.

Which makes you the second person I managed to turn away from God, during those years; I could blame Jeff Miller for your "new understanding", but I choose not to, I fully accept the responsibility that I have persuaded you of an untruth that I was convinced of, in my own mind at the time, and I apologize for that. I would also urge you to re-examine those beliefs in further depth, and based on what I am saying here and now.

I will say that I did make my case, back then, based mostly on regurgitating what was written on sites like The Painful Truth and Ambassador Watch and yes, even the execrable "Exit" and Support Network, combined with what the Baptists at Shadows of WCG were trying to convince us the Church was really like.

And, yes, at the time I was making that persuasive argument, I did have prickings of conscience going, "But that never happened in Victoria or Toronto East!" Which I chose to ignore. Apparently to your detriment, as well as my own.

You raise a very good point, however, which instructs me that I shouldn't generalize and say that the Evangelicals in the Church say all of us who still believe are not Christians; obviously, since I made that argument back in 2007, this is God's way of demonstrating just how poor of an attitude I had.

Thanks for shedding some light on that for me, Bob!

Byker Bob said...

BTW, as a result of my own studies and life experiences, I was already back on the road to belief at the time Jeff became prolific with his evangelicalism. It was a totally independent thing for me. Neither Jeff, nor the Tkaches had anything to do with that, although some of their beliefs are similar to what I believe. It's not a "box" thing, but I've learned to live with what goes on in peoples' minds. The funniest thing that ever happened to me was when a KJV advocate called me a Jesuit type because I mentioned reading the Apocrypha (which had been forbidden in WCG). People always want to put you into a box, not because that is how you actually are, but because that's the only way in which their minds can deal with you.

BB

Velvet said...

"I mentioned reading the Apocrypha"

Which reminds me, I ought to do that again. Last time I read Barnstone & Meyer's translation (which they marketed under the brand of "the Gnostic Bible" although the Gnostics on the discussion forum I encountered in 2008 were basically unapologetic Catholics --- exactly as the Church warned us, by the way), I was a pretty bitter atheist. Thanks in large part to Jeff Miller and the Baptists on Shadows of WCG.

I mean, the Baptists on Shadows of WCG didn't make me an atheist, that was my own choice, and I own that choice for what it was (the wrong one, but still a choice I made of my own free will).

The thing that still irks me is how Jeff and his Baptists managed to make me so bitter. (I honestly wasn't, before I encountered that forum.) Which was NOT my choice, and which they did, by knowingly and systematically trying to "break" me via the private messaging system on the board.

That demonstrates quite clearly, the erroneous (and calculated) philosophy behind Shadows of WCG, though; they sought to emotionally grind those they set their sights on into the ground, to utterly destroy any sense of goodness or decency one had about one's self; then once their victim's self-image had been reduced to little more than a black hole (through their own evil, human machinations), the Baptists swooped in and said, "Do you think you feel lousy NOW? BUT WAIT! OUR JESUS WILL HEAL YOU!"

Disregarding completely the fact that THEY were the ones who broke the victim, in the first place.

Yet paradoxically, the Church is what gets accused of being a cult.....

Retired Prof said...

Velvet, the technique of grinding down our worldly sense of self was recommended during my term at Ambassador College (1959-60) as a required in preparing us to accept conversion. Sorry, I don't remember what specific minister(s) said it, but it seemed to be official Radio Church of God policy at that time.

Velvet said...

"Velvet, the technique of grinding down our worldly sense of self was recommended during my term at Ambassador College (1959-60) as a required in preparing us to accept conversion. Sorry, I don't remember what specific minister(s) said it, but it seemed to be official Radio Church of God policy at that time."

Seriously? So why did the professing Christian Baptists at Shadows of WCG (all of whom were in their very early 30s, if that), do exactly the same thing?

And that certainly wasn't the policy in my particular congregation, though that would explain some of the rather bizarre stuff the travelling evangelists used to say. (Which no one I knew really paid much attention to, anyway.)

Retired Prof said...

"So why did the professing Christian Baptists at Shadows of WCG (all of whom were in their very early 30s, if that), do exactly the same thing?"

Damned if I know. How the hell could I possibly have any insight into their motivations?

One can speculate that the theory behind the military practice of "breaking" recruits in boot camp spread to non-military organizations. One can speculate that a few junior-high bullies who never outgrew their youthful cruelty managed to set the tone among their adult peers.

Speculation won't provide any answers, though. Best it can do is raise hypotheses; however, these particular ones are probably not worth testing.

Velvet said...

"One can speculate that the theory behind the military practice of "breaking" recruits in boot camp spread to non-military organizations. One can speculate that a few junior-high bullies who never outgrew their youthful cruelty managed to set the tone among their adult peers."

Hmm, but you said they told you around 1960 that you had to grind your own self down...i.e., that it was an internal procedure (not that I'm saying that was right, either--though there were a few members I can recall who might have benefitted from that).

The key difference between that, and say, the Shadows of WCG Baptists, was that Jeff Miller and his religious compatriots, did this to other people. (Or maybe just to me. I have no idea if I was the only one targeted, or if they treated others in the same manner.)