Friday, April 5, 2013

Dave Pack: Do TITANS Really Need A Golf Course Designer For An End-time Work?



Dave Pack, God's greatest living human being ever to lead a Church of God is gloating today that he has brought on board a major landscape architect known for his golf course design.  This should be great for Dave, what COG leader wouldn't want a golf course in his back yard!

This is all God's work!  All of you impotent failing splinter group leaders out there stand back in awe of the mightiest Church of God as it rapidly expands under your noses!  Play golf or die!

God has opened yet another door to His Church—another blessing, and one coming with a major discount. We are delighted to announce that the campus for The Restored Church of God Headquarters in Wadsworth, Ohio, will be shaped and sculpted by world-renowned golf course developer John C. Copeland. Mr. Copeland has been involved in more than 50 golf course projects in 12 countries, and the extraordinary skill of him and his team will ensure a beautiful setting for the rapidly expanding Work of God. 

Mr. Copeland’s shaping skill and meticulous attention to detail will provide a gorgeous environment for the Headquarters Hall of Administration and other buildings soon to come. Planned to reflect the magnificent Pasadena Ambassador campus, the exquisitely shaped grounds will offer an inspiring location for Church activities, including weekly services, ministerial conferences and a convention site for the annual Feast of Tabernacles. The elegance of the grounds and dignity of the Hall of Administration, in the center of numerous buildings, will also provide a fitting environment to receive visiting dignitaries. Simply beautiful, the campus will be a location without equal in Ohio.

Mr. Copeland’s work will assist in creating a jewel in the Wadsworth local community, and we are pleased to announce that there will be a public area where residents may enjoy spectacular flower gardens and specially decorated grounds.
 The the worlds greatest prophet ever to exist in these modern times starts boasting big time smearing Meredith, Flurry and Webber's noses in the ground with the following.  The hyperbole is staggering!


Regular readers know that our campus development is just one part of this large and growing Work. Occasionally, only a few statistics can provide special insight: The Restored Church of God is now receiving many thousands of letters and emails each week. Responses from The World to Come broadcasts are growing exponentially. Our viewership is going straight up. Hardcopy literature distribution is skyrocketing. Statistical downloads are becoming enormous. Our websites are absolute titans on the Internet. (And we do not “gin up” our statistical ranking, as does UCG, by linking local sites to one grand total to look much bigger than we are.) We are also seeing a tremendous number of new co-workers and donors due to the immense worldwide television effort. The number of brand new contributors in March over April was about 80 percent more than we typically see. And recognize that six of our new TV contracts have not yet taken effect.

Did you know that God has been sitting up in heaven for almost 6,000 years organizing and patiently planning for Dave Pack to come on the scene at this the greatest  moment in history when he has dumped his favor on the Restored Church of God.  Even Herbert Armstrong was an impotent wuss when it comes to being a powerful work.

God’s Church is into the final powerful PUSH of His Work—and ascent upward further into the “world conversation” that we know we are destined to experience in an ever greater way.
Almighty God almost certainly planned for this for a long time, maybe even thousands of years, but we did not imagine growing so big so fast. NO ONE COULD! We in The Restored Church of God are truly grateful for what God is doing. And the Work today should be seen as just a drop in the bucket compared to what we know is still going to be done. Of course, this is in part because of the coming fulfillment of the great prophecy that lies just before us—that involves the readers of these weekly announcements.
Dave then goes on to ask why the COG members in ALL the splinter groups have not left their weak and impotent little groups to come over to Dave's side where light and truth reign triumphant.


Brethren in every splinter: God continues to bless HIS Work! Ask yourself why He is not doing this in the organization you attend. Ask why God’s one Church experiences unity, genuine love, harmony, peace, production, massive expansion, growth in all categories of measurement, open doors, surging income, while yours sees only competing ideas, contentions and disunity. Ask why, as God’s Church continues to blossom, your organization continues to wither.

Make no mistake: Conditions in all the splinters will get worse—MUCH worse—not better! But we will all be back together soon.

45 comments:

Anonymous said...

Thus speaketh David Joshua Pack
But we cannot speak of this at this time. Make no mistake...soon

Anonymous said...

It would be refreshing and encouraging if the membership of the RCG could wake up to fact that Dave's idea of of "being found so doing," would not biblically include monuments to himself, reiventing the wheel by having one's own very expensive printing dept and golf course designed landscaping along with "Jesus is coming soon."

I have to say, Dave's followers are blind, deaf and dumb if they can't see through that little bit of self serving double talk.

Very soon he'll be buying a fleet of electric carts. He may as well order a few hundred rakes for fall leaves, leaf blowers and a composter. Oh and shovels and plows for winter snows. His beautiful campus is going to look pretty bleak half the year in NE Ohio as well.

I suppose Lake Mistake and faculty row are next ...

He better stay healthy because if he croaks too young, someone is going to get stuck with a big white elephant. If he wants to stay true to Mr. Armstrong, he best be keeping an eye out for a relatively untrained theologically inept thug from Chicago to inheirit his legacy and then sell it.

Anonymous said...

anonymous said...
"...relatively untrained theologically inept thug from Chicago to inheirit his legacy and then sell it."

I see what you did there. LOL

Anonymous said...

Maybe a golf course would be more profitable since usely do pretty well in the summer in Ohio.

Anonymous said...

He's just trying to get a bandwagon effect going. Politicians do it all the time. It's a very worldly tactic by a very carnal man.

Joe Moeller said...

Cool!

Maybe someday, after Pack has passed from the scene, they will be renting it out , using his facility to film a remake of "CADDY SHACK" or something.

Looking for volunteers to reenact the opening of the Auditorium in 1974 for Pack's grand opening as well. (Details Below). Just let us know your intentions right here on "Banned".

At the 1974 opening dedication of the Auditorium in Pasadena, the assembled throng were shocked, excited and amused by a male and female STREAKER who ran across the campus in front of everyone there right in the middle of the grand opening ceremony!

(True story!)

So that Pack can stay true to "all things Armstrong" we here at Banned want to make sure that there are a male and female streaker for his grand opening as well.

Please post resume' here. A collection for expenses and air fare will also be coordinated at this website.

Joe Moeller
Cody, WY

Anonymous said...

Even with such short notice, they could all be in Ohio for a May grand opening church service. Truly, the makings of a once in a life time COG precious event.

Photo opportunity with a dignitary, a piece of Steuben Crystal.

With 12 or 13 Apostles, priceless.

Anonymous said...

"Brethren in every splinter: God continues to bless HIS Work! Ask yourself why He is not doing this in the organization you attend. Ask why God’s one Church experiences unity, genuine love, harmony, peace, production, massive expansion, growth in all categories of measurement, open doors, surging income, while yours sees only competing ideas, contentions and disunity."

Obviously, this is meant to be read (and believed!) by people who aren't RCG members. From the outside, it just looks like a very self-serving pack of lies. I can only imagine how bad it sounds to an ex-RCG member. Do even the people who are current members in Pack's group really buy this load of crap?

Anonymous said...

Thanks Joe for the Caddy Shack comment, I guess we can now call him Caddy Pack.

Anonymous said...

How is one to decide which cult to join if they are all shining a light and claiming it's brighter? Jehovah's Witnesses claim their light is getting brighter too. How about if they all shine their lights to each other, blind themselves and fall over a cliff?

Anonymous said...

If Pack is growing and growing how come after 14 years of RCG he only has around 1500 members?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
If Pack is growing and growing how come after 14 years of RCG he only has around 1500 members?


Because "awesome" "exponentially" ""straight up", "magnificent" and so have different meanings to Dave than to the rest of humanity.

Dave says:
"Almighty God almost certainly planned for this for a long time, maybe even thousands of years, but we did not imagine growing so big so fast. NO ONE COULD."

"almost certainly" is also one of the slippery phrases. I have visions of Jesus jumping up and down at the beginning of the Dark Ages and yelling into God's ear.."Dave Pack! Dave Pack!!! Pulllllease get one started! Only to find it would have to wait yet another 1500 years to figure out just what one was and how to control it once it got loose.

Velvet said...

Quick question: Does Packatollah ever tell the truth? I glanced through those paragraphs, and, WOW. Must be nice in that alternate universe inside his head. The unfortunate thing is, he's locked other people in there with him!

Velvet said...

"From the outside, it just looks like a very self-serving >>>pack<< of lies.

Very nice, Anon.

Douglas Becker said...

If God has a flair for the dramatic as some thinks He does, He would just give people what they want and see what they do with it -- over a life time. After it's all over, the rest of us can see how it turned out. It's all great life time drama.

Herbert Armstrong seems to have been allowed to build his vision dream of being the center of the universe. Of course, nothing is left of it now except some Microsoft Surface ads and a few movies, but he got what he wanted. But now it's all over.

If we were to buy into this concept, sure, Davey Pack would be permitted to build an impressive campus. It's great soap opera drama, sort of like watching Dallas on TNT and wondering whether the Ewings will be able to survive the Billion dollar fine, the take over and the devastation of the litigation over the methane well blowing up. I guess we'll just have to see the next episode. About the RCG, I mean.

What will become of the million dollar golf course after Davey is gone? What will happen to the RCG? The unfolding drama is great entertainment.

Of course, Davey is not the only drama to watch. Let's not forget Roderick Meredith. His little LCG drama is further along.

So stay tuned for the next exciting episode for the drama on the ACoG channels for the God TV Network.

You have to admit the WCG to CGI was fascinating, unless you happened to be on the set as one of the players as it unfolded.

Anonymous said...

these "look at me, look at me" organizations might serve a useful purpose.....they are the ones that will get all of the attention (read: persecution) while God's Church ambles along reletively unscathed....

God does know how to take care of His own.

Douglas Becker said...

these "look at me, look at me" organizations might serve a useful purpose.....they are the ones that will get all of the attention (read: persecution) while God's Church ambles along reletively unscathed....

That might be true, except the "look at me, look at me" organizations are the ones doing the persecuting.

Anonymous said...

Dave Pack wrote: "...Make no mistake: Conditions in all the splinters will get worse—MUCH worse—not better! But we will all be back together soon..."

So, if what you said there is true, Dave Pack, what's the problem?

Apparently, after all is said and done, "...we will all be back together soon..."

Until then, what do we do? Wasn't one of the Passover lessons from Christ that we all learn to: "love one another?"

Christ didn't say to "beat one another" ...whether physically, verbally or spiritually.

John

Anonymous said...

Anonymous wrote:

"How is one to decide which cult to join if they are all shining a light and claiming it's brighter? Jehovah's Witnesses claim their light is getting brighter too. How about if they all shine their lights to each other, blind themselves and fall over a cliff?"
******
Well, if they fall over a cliff, it may not be because of light, but because of the darkness masquarading as light:

"But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!" Matthew 6:23

John

Leonardo said...

Anonymous 7:55 proclaims: "God does know how to take care of His own."

Really? Looking at the bickering of the COG's currently trying to outrighteousness and outexpand each other, it seems such "care" requires little more than the skills of a boxing referee at present.


Anonymous 9:07 asked: "Do even the people who are current members in Pack's group really buy this load of crap?"

I'm afraid many do, Anon, as hard as that may be for a rational mind to comprehend. I know of one old-time member who recently just exulted in telling her friends in other splinter groups, "Oh, it's just so WONDERFUL to hear Mr. Pack speak with such power and authority, exactly like Mr. Armstrong used to! I only wish I would have joined the Restored Church of God years ago!" And I think this gives an indication as to what kind of mindset Dave is appealing to - one from at least the '50's and '60's that craves to be told what to do, “with authority!” Unfortunately, as Doug Becker points out, many COG folks earnestly yearn for the exhilaration of the soap opera-like entertainment fest the classic WCG was known far and wide for. In some strange kind of way, they see it as evidence of the great cosmic struggle going on between good and evil, which they want to be in on, WCG-syle, of course. And Davey is there to provide it, or at least orchestrate it all using the financial backing of his gullible followers: well-landscaped campus with ornamental shrubs and flowers and streams, a “dignified” Hall of Administration building, battery-powered carts, and above all else greatly exaggerated claims of how God is behind all this phenomenal growth – virtually everything COG folks came to expect under HWA's adminsitration of "God's Government."

But let’s wait and see how all this “meteroric expansion” actually turns out in actual reality. I don’t think we’ll have to wait for very long.

Note the kind of phrases Pack uses to describe this meglamanic project:

“this LARGE and GROWING Work”

“The Restored Church of God is now receiving MANY THOUSANDS of letters and emails each week”

“Responses from The World to Come broadcasts are GROWING EXPONENTIALLY”

“Our viewership is going STRAIGHT UP. Hardcopy literature distribution is SKYROCKETING. Statistical downloads are becoming ENORMOUS. Our websites are absolute TITANS on the Internet.”

“We are also seeing A TREMENDOUS NUMBER of new co-workers and donors due to the IMMENSE worldwide television effort. The number of brand new contributors in March over April was about 80 PERCENT MORE TAHAN WE ATYPICALLAY SEE.”


And yet, in all this bombastic rhetoric, notice that one crucial thing is noticeably absent from it: any kind of hard SPECIFIC numbers. Pack claims “Occasionally, only a few statistics can provide special insight…” – though what follows does not qualify in the least as “statistics” at all, just vague and hazy hyperbolic verbal boasting that can mean anything because nothing is precisely stated!

Assistant Deacon said...

"...these 'look at me, look at me' organizations might serve a useful purpose.....they are the ones that will get all of the attention (read: persecution) while God's Church ambles along reletively [sic] unscathed...."



Anon 7:55, please identify "God's Church." Specifically. Not just with a scripture. Identify the group in existence today. While you're at it, please identify which people in that group are actual members, and not imposters.

Bet you can't. So why bring it up?

Leonardo said...

And like Buffalo Joe Moeller reminds us, a pair of streakers did indeed grace the opening of the Auditorium back in April of 1974. Though I've only heard this from numerous folks who were there in person and were direct eyewitnesses.

Joe, were you there in person to behold the indignity firsthand? I graduated from high school at that time, and I distinctly remmember that streaking was quite popular then. Remember the guy who ran naked across the stage at the Academy Award ceremony earlier that year on TV?

Anyway, If you did see the Auditorium streakers, were they ever apprehended, or did they just keep on running down Green Street or whatever?

Anonymous said...

One of the last prayers that Jesus prayed was for "unity" (not uniformity). If these folks could only put their egos on hold, come together, they could actually accomplish something. But then again, it is better for the world that they remain in fragments with little impact on the world.

Leonardo said...

But then how would that be an answer to Jesus' prayer for unity - fragmented with little impact on the world? Especially as we approach the much touted "end-times." Unity or uniformity, it seems like Christian groups have neither these days, do they?

Anonymous said...

"Unity or uniformity, it seems like Christian groups have neither these days, do they?"

They don't have much christianity either. But I'm just picking nits now, aren't I.

Byker Bob said...

There are some very fundamental questions which people should be asking themselves. Jesus, on one occasion, chastised merchants and moneychasers, and drove them out of the temple, which he confirmed was His Father's house! Later, He prophesied that soon, not one stone would be left upon the other of that majestic edifice. However, neither Jesus, nor the disciples/apostles sought to create something to replace it, nor did they seek to build a college, hall of administration, or even a tent! And remember, Jesus' physical craft was that of the carpenter (also interpreted as stone mason), and Paul and Aquilla and Priscilla were tent makers, apparently with sufficient skill set that they had purchasers for their finished goods.

So, Pack is clearly imitating HWA when he should be skipping over HWA and getting back to imitating Jesus, the reason for all that we Christians actually do! That he should cite his error as being evidence that he is the true successor Apostle, or that RCG is the only true remnant of the true church is beyond ridiculous!

BB

Anonymous said...


Herbert W. Armstrong had repeatedly tried to set up his own tattooed, sexually immoral, son Garner Ted Armstrong as his successor in the Worldwide Church of God (WCG), but finally had to openly and permanently disfellowship him from the WCG in the late 1970's. Garner Ted Armstrong then started the Church of God, International (CGI) with about 5,000 rebels, and when he got kicked out of it also for fooling around, the Intercontinental Church of God (ICG) with about 2,000 remaining suckers. Neither of these two groups ever amounted to anything, and Garner Ted is now dead.

Just before his own death in January 1986, Herbert W. Armstrong appointed Joseph W. Tkach, Sr. as his successor in the Worldwide Church of God. Joe Sr. eventually rejected virtually all the teachings of HWA and wrote it up in January 1995 (though tithing was later brought back). It looks like most of the 150,000 people who were in the WCG at its high point no longer believe anything that HWA had taught. The majority appear either to have gone along with the changes in the WCG, which was renamed Grace Communion International (GCI) under Joe Sr.'s son Joseph Tkach, Jr., or have gone back to where they came from, or have just gone home.

Of the people who supposedly do believe something yet, the many tiny, little, so-called Church of God (COG) groups and individuals and their puny little efforts are not getting anywhere. They are all just full of more and more division and confusion all the time. It does not even seem worthwhile to try to keep track of all the little nobodies scurrying here and there to get nowhere.

Even the few larger WCG splinter groups have all stalled out now and are all in decline.

False prophet Gerald Flurry's Philadelphia Church of God (PCG) was set up with unqualified, lower-level, power-hungry perverts from the WCG now allowed to rule over the people and abuse them shamefully in the name of the "government of God." Forbidding people to learn the truth, lying to them, and trying to sexually use and abuse them in God's name will ensure that only more perverts will sign up for the PCG, and that any decent people will leave it. The PCG topped out around 7,000 people but is now down to about 5,000 and still declining.

The Global Church of God (GCG) is bankrupt and defunct and gone after some people fired its leader Roderick C. Meredith, who went on to start the Living Church of God (LCG) with about 6,000 of the 8,000 people from the GCG. RCM always seemed to have a problem with HWA, who had once briefly exiled him to Hawaii, and started making doctrinal changes from the start, but is now getting even more carried away in his old age. RCM was never able to get more than about 8,000 followers.

The United Church of God--an International Association (UCG-aIA, or just UCG), started up in 1995 with about 20,000 people so that its former WCG ministers could continue to collect paychecks and have retirement plans. Trying to attract a crowd by allowing unrepentant, unconverted unbelievers to behave badly, the UCG just split recently with the formation of the Church of God--a Worldwide Association (COGWA). Now down to about half its original size, the UCG cannot do anything about the unrepentant, unconverted unbelievers in its midst, or there might not be many people left, including on its Council of Elders. The newly formed COGWA sounds like it does not even want to try to produce any serious literature, and seems to think it has found away around doing any such work.

For those who are still interested in things of a religious nature, David C. Pack's Restored Church of God (RCG) might be worth watching. The other splinter groups really are bad disasters. The only question is whether or not the RCG is too.

Anonymous said...

And we'd all like to send out a big "THANK YOU" to the above supporter of Mr. David Pack for his cut & pasted endorsement of the Restored Church of God. It gives us great confidence for what the future of the RCG might hold.

Velvet said...

"these "look at me, look at me" organizations might serve a useful purpose.....they are the ones that will get all of the attention (read: persecution) while God's Church ambles along reletively unscathed....

That might be true, except the "look at me, look at me" organizations are the ones doing the persecuting."

I agree with Douglas. As for "God's Church" "ambl[ing] along relatively unscathed" I don't think you can say that of any of the splinter groups, or even "the denomination" Junior currently has in ruins.

Velvet said...

"And yet, in all this bombastic rhetoric, notice that one crucial thing is noticeably absent from it: any kind of hard SPECIFIC numbers."

That was the first thought I had, when skimming the paragraphs. That said, even though they were numbers published in the coworker letters, I have heard some on these sites indicate the numbers were made up, so who knows? But I do know Pack isn't even making an effort, to self-aggrandize in this manner, and not even give the appearance of (evil--no, wait) verisimiltude.

Corky said...

If everyone will remember back to the days of HWA and GTA, it was not about how right the WCG was but how wrong other churches were.

The advertizing trick of this brand being the only brand to buy because brands X, X and X were all alike and all inferior to brand A. Not much is said about brand A but a lot of negative things are said of brand X.

Once someone is convinced that celebrating Christmas, for example, is the same as celebrating a pagan, heathen, feast day where orgies and other evil things are happening...well, if brand X celebrates Christmas, they are wrong and evil. Therefore, you can safely rule out brand X church as knowing anything at all.

The Sabbath was the big thing, not just Christmas. "Your church doesn't keep the Sabbath? Well, your church is ignorant". Once a person is convinced that Sabbath keeping is essential to salvation, he can rule out just about every other Christian church on the planet.

It was always a question of do you "keep Sabbath" or "keep Sunday" when that should not have even been the question. The Sabbath covenant was made with the Jews only - and no, the Greeks and Romans mentioned in the NT are not Jews.

The real question should have been "Do we gentiles need to convert to Judaism and keep the law of Moses in order to be a Christian" and the answer (according to Paul) is NO!

Leonardo said...

All this religious arguing is driving me nuts. Sabbath or Sunday? Pork or beef? Acts 15 and the law of Moses? I say let's treat our fellow human beings with respect and consideration on the practical levels of life, and let the rabbis argue about whether a duck is a clean or unclean bird! Oy vey!!

Joe Moeller said...

Response to ANNONYMOUS , and OBVIOUS Dave Pack ad at 2:17 PM.

Ok, you got your freebie ad in. Next time though, leave a donation!

Joe Moeller
Cody, WY

DennisCDiehl said...

I'd liken the Apostle Dave to the Apostle Paul, but he'd take it wrong.


http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paulthe.htm

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paula.htm

DennisCDiehl said...

"What kind of authority can there be for an "apostle" who, unlike the other apostles, had never been prepared for the apostolic office in Jesus' own school but had only later dared to claim the apostolic office on the basis of his own authority? The only question comes to be how the apostle Paul appears in his Epistles to be so indifferent to the historical facts of the life of Jesus... He bears himself but little like a disciple who has received the doctrines and the principles which he preaches from the Master whose name he bears."

Ferdinand Christian Baur The eminent theologian, in his 'Church History of the First Three Centuries',

"Paul hardly ever allows the real Jesus of Nazareth to get a word in."

Carl Jung (Psychologist) (U.S. News and World Report, April 22, 1991, p. 55)

Sounds like a few "Apostles" we know, doesn't it?

Anonymous said...

I am continuing to research Pack's claim that he was an All American swimmer. No such name exists in the listing of All Americans in the 60's. His times that he gave were not even good enough to approach those honors and yet he has continued to boast of this for almost 50 years. I am going to continue to look in to this and try to expose him for the fraud that he is.

Leonardo said...

Hey Anon, it's wonderful to see that you're carrying on in the great ex-WCGer tradition - the fine art of corroboration, actually checking up on proclaimed educational degrees and other claims of personal greatness! I wish you well. I too am a firm believer in confirming such claims and accomplishments. Though my experience has been that about 9 times out of 10 you'll be disappointed to find the "boaster" to have utterly made-up the boasts in order to increase their perceived status among their audiences. For example, before the days of Wikipedia, I checked up on the alleged PhD from famous creationist Kent Hovind (who is currently doing time in prison for tax evasion), and found out his "doctorate" was in the totally unrelated field of "Christian Education" earned in the late '80's via correspondence course from one Patriot University, an uncredited "University" pictured here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PatriotU_Crop.jpg

Many years ago there used to be a well-known WCG member who wrote a lot of articles for the old Plain Truth magazine. Anyway, he would frequently make mention of his days in the famous Flying Tigers, a volunteer group of three sqaudrens of fighter pilots who defended China from Japanese attacks during World War II. Here's a pic of the kind of widely-recognized aircraft they flew:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hells_Angels,_Flying_Tigers_1942.jpg

So another member I knew decided to check up the historical record to see if this writer was really a member of such an elite crew. And this was long before the days of the Internet, so such research took quite more time and effort than it would these days. But it turned out this writer's claims weren't true at all, and that for years he'd been deceiving folks that he was something he really wasn't.

So yeah, go for it - because sadly, this is a endemic habit in the COG's, especially among it's leadership.

“It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry.” Thomas Paine

Anonymous said...

"I am continuing to research Pack's claim that he was an All American swimmer" That would be a great project and interesting to see if you can prove that he is a liar about that. Good luck with the research and thanks for the effort.

Anonymous said...

When HWA began his ministry, was he sincere in his beliefs or a con man from the start? If someone wanted to start a church to make money, he would want to teach tithing but to gain members, he would not put in draconian teachings such as Holy Day observances, avoiding doctors, Sabbath keeping, dietary laws, avoiding Christmas, etc. He would promote the fear of the future tribulation to encourage people to jump into his lifeboat. Do you think that he added all of these draconian teaching because he actually believed it himself? Can you imagine Loma and Herbie sitting around the kitchen table in Salem, OR coming up with their new religion? A good advertising man would make his "product" as appealing as he could, wouldn't he? If he was sincere, at least at first, then why did he cling to his teachings throughout his ministry? Perhaps because discard any teaching would damage his credibility, so he had to push on. What do you folks think? Sincere or a con man from the start?

Leonardo said...

My personal view has always been that HWA was a talented though flawed human being, yet the well-meaning and sincere victim of a phony ideology from the very beginning - just as much as any of us who at one time or another held to the same ideology, and just as much as William Miller, Ellen G. White or G.G. Rupert did before him, to name but a few pre-Armstrong Baptist/COG/Adventists luminaries.

I never saw HWA as being a phony, or as merely being "in it for the money." Besides, the money/status part of it came far later, after many years of modest living. If such things were truly his motive from the start, then his was the longest Academy Award-worthy performance in history! The people who claim he was a money-grubbing religious charlatan are just lazily reaching for a simplistic explanation that doesn't accord with the known facts.

History shows that people can genuinely believe all sorts of absurd things – concepts that eventually prove completely false over time – and yet be totally willing to sacrifice their lives for such absurdities. HWA was just one of billions who bought into a worldview that attempts to explain all of known reality by means of invisible gods, angels, devils and demons by appealing to human gullibility and tapping into deep-rooted fears of the unknowns of existence. This is nothing new. The enterprise of supernaturalistic religion has been going on since the beginning of human history, and will most likely continue on long after we pass from the scene.

We are all here on this website because we at one time fell victim to such transcendental delusions – and some still do.

Anonymous said...

The likening of the 'Apostle Dave' braggart, to the braggart 'Apostle Paul' is the most insightful comment I've read on this thread.

Anonymous said...

You don't get out much, do you anonymous?

Velvet said...

"The people who claim he was a money-grubbing religious charlatan are just lazily reaching for a simplistic explanation that doesn't accord with the known facts."

Note that this is being stated by a non-believing ex-member, so therefore his opinion is acceptable in these climes. If one who keeps the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus were to say the same thing, however, slanderous cries of "Idol-worshipper!" would be heaped upon that one's head.

Just sayin'.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps that's because the ones who claim to "keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus" are not exactly the brightest kids on the block, and are well known to communicate so poorly that we don't really understand what they are trying to say in their frenzied rants.

Just sayin'!

Stephen said...

"Perhaps that's because the ones who claim to "keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus" are not exactly the brightest kids on the block."

I'm not so sure that it's because they're not so bright, it's just that they're only living up their own standards from a very particular, narrow point of view. From any other viewpoint, they're not keeping any commandments except for sabbath, holy days, unclean meats and that Jewish stuff, but they don't seem to be living like Jesus said to at all. But as long as you adopt a COG viewpoint, then everything looks hunkydory.