Joshua C. Pack proves to all...
1) Understanding the meaning of the prophecy, starting with Haggai 1:2, automatically carries the requirement of taking a position on it. Oh it does not. But I have taken a position on it and it isn't yours or I can reserve judgment and go by the fruits of ita all. The first problem is to decide if Dave is correct on Haggai being a prophecy about himself and RCG. I decide not correct based on what the context and Haggai is really all about versus analogies anyone could make about it. This cannot be avoided after one learns it. I believe this means it can't be avoided after one swallows the first supposition. Think about this. The position of the remnant is that “the time is not come” to rebuild God’s House. Are they right or wrong? I am thinking about it. The problem is whether "God's House" was more than the Temple of old. A church being "the temple" is a nice analogy, but it is merely an analogy. The chance it is your church is zero. God indicts their thinking, meaning they are wrong! Wow....not even into the first few sentences and already God indicts those who don't see what has been said. And you know this? Really? We sure got to "meaning they are wrong" fast! If the prophecy is not now, the net effect would be that God agrees with the remnant’s view. Worse, so should those currently in God’s one Church because they now know the meaning of the prophecy. Think this through. One does or does not agree with the remnant. God does not—and we do not. The time is now! Let’s go further. Um sure ...fine. What if it is not prophecy at all and therefore negating the leap from the remnant being right no matter if you agree or not? How did we get to knowing the meaning of prophecy to agreeing with your ideas about it? One in the same I suppose in Dave's mind.
2) Directly related, why (or how) would God command the remnant to “Go…build the House!” (Hag. 1:8)—but not mean NOW? How could He mean some undetermined future year? Why would God tell them (twice) to “consider their ways”—but not mean that they should do this now? Well...they did consider their ways 2500 years ago and got off their butts and rebuilt the temple. Try to imagine God saying, “Consider your ways, but take your time. There’s no hurry. In fact, take years to think it over—even though you have been out of My Church for 20 years! You don’t have to DO anything now.” Now now..there you did it again. You leapt from the real historical setting of Haggai into some strange and weird idea (where have I read that before?) and negated the fact that the remnant 2500 years ago did rebuild as admonished. You're the one making Haggai mean what it never meant.
3) Also related, if God waited 2,500 years to reveal the prophecy’s meaning (3,000 years when various related much older Psalms are considered), is not His waiting done? Does His revealing it not signal that He has reached the time to fulfill it rather than having reached a point one, two or three years out? Well see...now there ya go again. Who says besides you it is a 3000 year old prophecy about you and RCG . Who says any Psalms actually relate to David C Pack and the Restored Church of God? All speculation and wild ideas if you ask me.
4) Next, why would God wait longer? What would He wait for? The remnant is absolutely ripe for deliverance. Dave likes that ripe for the picking concept and to that I can attest. But Dave has his God waiting or not wanting to wait for something based on an idea of what God is waiting for. What would He wait for? Well, maybe He is done waiting for the Temple of Haggai's day to be built and He's waiting for people to appreciate the history now over and a few Messianic hopes expressed to come someday for the people of the Book? I don't know. I'd like to ask God personally if He is waiting or tired of waiting for anything but I bet I can't get a straight answer.
5) Internally, and this is no small thing, God’s Church is truly ready to expand the Work in a BIG WAY. The prophecy features this as the MAIN PURPOSE of the remnant returning! Without the prophecy’s fulfillment, this expansion would be delayed one year—or more! Why would God notify His Church of the prophecy’s existence at the very same time our staff is ready, our websites are ready, our literature is ready and even God’s college is ready for more students if the prophecy were not imminent? Why would God notify His Church if HE were not ready? Well, perhaps because no real God is has the same plans as Dave does? Perhaps the real God or power of the entire Universe never heard of Dave or his staff? Maybe God thinks the mega-church a few exits down from Dave, which could swallow up Dave's buildings inside it's one building is more what God had in mind in Haggai??? Who knows? But trusting one man who takes no counsel from anyone before he breaks out in prophetic musings seems a lesson the COGs need to consider well. How many examples of prophecy coming alive and then dying do you guys need in one lifetime?
6) Related to this, the buildings on our campus can very soon handle significantly more staff than we have now. This is already true without the other two buildings scheduled for completion in the late fall. However, this extra size works perfectly if the prophecy occurs this year. So what? Buildings for God are a dime a dozen especially in Ohio. Let's face it, no real God spent even twenty minutes in his "House for God" in Pasadena, partly because He says He doesn't live in houses, but that seems to be just a rumor. I'm sure God is thrilled to know He has "staff" waiting to do his bidding. Well staffed illusions infrastructure to support a delusion is no great accomplisment. Those places are also a dime a dozen on the planet.
7) Also related, but separate, our infrastructure is ready to receive and serve a much larger flock this fall! This includes field ministry being ready, but also other things. Wow..you're just kinda making new stuff up as you go here to get lots of points aren't you. You could combine points 6 and 7 under 6. I'm not sure there are many sheep left in the COGs that want to be penned and boxed in again with infrastructure but again, what do I know. God has not revealed any of this to me. Landfills are also made ready way ahead to receive stuff but I suppose the analogy breaks down using the concept of landfills and what fills the land.
8) Maturing interest from many in the world due to one year of explosive television expansion requires many more laborers in the ministry by this autumn. Well that's fine. Work with them, Get THEM to show up, join up and pony up. The average COG member and church jumper is exhausted. Personally I think people are far more skeptical of Televangelists or Telejoshuas than in the past. They may not be as willing to part with their resources, believe everything one man tells them about all things and join something where misery seems to be lurking when not 100% in tune with the High Priest, but again...I could be wrong, but this seems an old paradigm and one that has worn out its welcome in religion and on TV.
9) The Restored Church of God is experiencing an AWESOME period of growth and development at this time—in the runup period just prior to the prophecy’s fulfillment. This is putting it mildly! To us, this is powerful indication that we are on the right track for this year—that God is not only pleased with His Church, but that He is helping it get ready. Well nice try but lots of churches can say that regardless of their message. Besides, everything is awesome with Dave so we're not really sure it is the kind of awesome we think of when we hear the word awesome. Perhaps some income and baptism or church growth and new ministers info would be helpful in this regard? Awesome growth of anything and the story of the rebuilding of the Temple in the 500's BCE may not have as much in common as one thinks. Mormon Church growth is awesome.
10) If the prophecy did not happen this year, the remnant would remain another year (or more) undergoing ever worsening false ways. Worse off, they would have a commensurate shorter time to spiritually recover before the Tribulation. Think worse condition, less time to recover. Well see, now your just making new ideas up based on some of the previous misapplied ideas in previous points. What's another year in the whole scheme of eternity? And don't tell me to "think" anything. I would like you to think but I'm not sensing much success. If God is control of it all, I'm sure we'll all have just the right amount of recovery time we need, no problem. However, if Dave is anxious to get his own ideas going, I can see his frustration. Dave has bills to pay. Besides, most of the other COG splinters are not all that evil or have "false ways" getting worse. Personally I'm feeling it is The Apostle Joshua who is getting worse, weird and strange, but that's just me. He must inspire someone somewhere.
11) If reunification occurred next year (or any year after), those with God’s Spirit would have one more year cut off from God’s Church. This carries the potential for more to quench the Holy Spirit (I Thes. 5:19) and lose salvation. Boy..this hurry up so we don't lose recovery time and add to our quench time thing has Dave by the seat of his pants. I still think it's bills to pay and permanent stuff to be build to send the message Jesus is coming soon.
12) The readers of the Haggai prophecy announcements (this is #21) who believed them would be the most disillusioned and the biggest candidates to QUIT everything if God did not return His people to one House this year! This would work directly against what God is doing—directly opposite His overall purpose.Well now Praise the Lord! Finally an idea that is correct! Dave has drawn the Line of Disillusion (and there is nothing wrong with being Dis-illusioned for who wants illusions?) You bet your sweet bippy they are going to be disillusioned in short order but that's a good thing. Dave is saying he has to be right because if he is wrong you will become dis-illusioned with his illusions. This would be progress in my world!!
13) Further desolation (Hag. 1:11; 2:16-17) from God of the splinter “houses” would practically wipe out the few remaining senior leaders in them. This includes pastors and elders, all of whom are NEEDED TO CARRY OUT THE BIG WORK! Now Dave...if God can raise up stones to fill in for the Children of Abraham, He can find newer and better ministers and members. Besides, the old ones are ruined by now and probably don't have the energy to comply with your demands or sit long hours through your rehabilitation sermons. Let them go peacefully into that night and return when things calm down.
14) The onset of all future years would never come with clarity—with any certainty! Would God leave thousands who are now aware of this prophecy in such a condition? Hardly. Probably better to say, "Would God leave thousands who have at least heard my ideas of who I am and how I am spoken of in the Bible in such a condition?" Sure, why not? Especially if they have figured out that waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in point one, you messed up the meaning of Haggai?
15) Next, for those who will see the value of how to pursue spiritual matters, there is this: After fervently seeking God about it, not one reason the prophecy is off this year ever emerged in the minds of even one of our 16 Headquarters ministers! I (we) have NEVER prayed about, studied over, meditated on, fasted about and counseled with other ministers regarding a subject more than this one—in fact no other subject is even close! Oh Dave you nut. You know perfectly well if those guys are going to keep their car , their paycheck or even a nice house on faculty row to come, they will agree with anything you need them to agree to. Michael Venish says you weren't real happy with him cautioning you on the Joshua stuff or spending monies of others on things that send the message "my lord delays his coming." Remember how you shook your fist in his face and went bonkers when he tried to caution you?
16) Similarly, as questions emerged throughout our pursuit of truth with the many details of the prophecy, so many of these details kept coming clear as direct answers to prayer. And these were often immediate. Invalid point. Anyone can expand an analogy to fit their need. Besides, we have no clue yet if these clear and direct answers are true. We're waiting to see if you are correct. And we don't have long evidently. Maybe then we can decide just how clear and direct these answered prayers were.
17) Recall Haggai 1:13: “Then spoke Haggai the Lord’s messenger in the Lord’s message unto the people…” Haggai is the messenger to God’s people, with what is an all-important message from God. Would not God make clear in such a unique message He describes as “the Lord’s message unto His people” the correct date for action? What kind of message would it be if people did not know WHEN TO CARRY IT OUT? Dave, read my lips. the people in the 500's BCE got the point from the real Joshua the High Priest evidently and did as asked. They did carry it out just fine. All this other stuff is just made up and speculative. Actually it is a speculative waste of time but we'll see. Making scriptures mean what they never meant never works out well when critically thought through.
18) Since the apostasy, God had not wanted the remnant back in His Church, but now He does.And you know this? How do you know what God wants? Oh...you just match it with what you want and bingo...they match! He would first reveal the remnant to His leader, then tell him how they would return, and finally that He meant NOW. This was the order in which these things became apparent. To you....
19) Imagine God not revealing the year the remnant is coming—but only the day and month. Vast amounts of time would have been wasted by His leaders studying and preparing for something that was not imminent. Would God put His Church in such a position? Vast amounts of time has already been wasted by "His leaders" preparing for the ever imminent. I wish the Bible never said "no man knows the day or the hour" because some loon always says, "but He didn't say we wouldn't know the year." Well hundreds of Joshuas in history have pulled that stunt over the past 2000 years and been 100% wrong 100% of the time to date.
20) Of interest, God revealed to me during ELUL four years ago my role as the modern Joshua. Oh Elul you nut! Why not just say you were having a slow August and September and got bored? It is not interesting in the least. Do you think some God has to wait until Elul to speak up or mess the whole cosmic cycle up and turn it all on its head? This reminds me of HWA grasping for an amazing thing, other than the start of the tribulation in '72 and the Second Coming in '75 by saying WCG picked up ad space in Readers Digest. Grasping, straws and all that.
21) Also of interest, I and The Restored Church of God learned about the New Testament remnant last ELUL (August). Let’s ask: Would timing of when we were shown the prophecy not be tied to its unique timing of fulfillment during the very next available ELUL? Gee, you may be right. Last Elul you think up some weird and strange tale and claim special insights and titles which would automatically lead to understanding this August (Elul) could be even more interesting! Where I have been ! Clear as mud.
22) We might ask: does the DEVIL know the prophecy is on? Shhhhhhh...not if you don't stop telling everyone! For those who understand how the devil works—that he counterfeits EVERYTHING God does—a variety of counterfeit theories have recently appeared about how God is going to reunite His people. Well maybe they are the real theories? Maybe when one goofball comes up with a another weird or strange theory another goofball has to match it? I think you are talking about diabolical mimicry which is an old explanation as to why some ideas that are presented as new seem so old. Should not the devil be expected to do this at the time it would cause the most confusion? You will soon see that most of these theories are coming from men standing on the wrong side of this prophecy. Well duh...maybe YOU are on the wrong side of this "prophecy." Maybe you have spun a simple tale intended as Old Testament History with Messianic hopes into a really corny fable? Remember when you said...
"...now, if I became deceived, I will never tell you what I'm going to tell you now...I am telling you if I go off into strange ideas, misconduct, rebellion, you name it, don't follow me. I want to tell you that now, because if I start doing that I'm gonna try to get you to follow me! I'm gonna come to you and tell you it doesn't apply, it doesn't mean me, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's OK to follow me because ABCD and XY and Z. Do you understand what I'm saying? Listen to me now, when I tell you don't follow me if I go off into weird ideas, or if I get off into other things that are total absolutely unscriptural conduct, because if I do I'm gonna paint it with a different face and try to get you to follow me. Do you understand what I'm saying brethren? Please remember that, because I promise you that if I become deceived, I'll forget it, and I'll want you to forget it...And I hope you'll remember it well enough to quote it right back to me...But I'll tell you what, I'm not going anywhere."Dave Pack-SermonDecember 12, 1998
I do remember it and I bet you do want everyone to forget it. And if this is not a strange idea, what would qualify?
23) With God’s people split up, it is now almost impossible to do a powerful Work. (This might be the one area where the splinter leaders would agree.) God’s Church is largely stymied in working with both brethren and the world because of the confusion and deception from top leaders about where God’s Church is, who has the truth, who is carrying on after Mr. Armstrong, who is doing the true Work, etc. (Reread #22.) There is no other way to proceed than for God to remove leaders who have lulled with deceit many thousands who were blind (Rev. 3:17) to begin with.Oh sure there is. God could have just had a few get back on track seminars with a nice lunch with all to see and hear and never doubt the source of these things. Sadly, and of course as Bob Thiel would say..this is not how things get clarified. In the whole scheme of the Universe, there never was a "powerful work." I mean really, if one grain of sand held up at arms length covers 10,000+ galaxies made up of billions of stars each and planets to boot, "powerful" is too big a word for we bacteria on planet earth.
24) World conditions cry out for a big Work NOW!!!—not one or more years from now.
I repeat: There are many more reasons for a 2013 fulfillment, with a few of a personal nature—Yeah...we keep waiting to hear those reasons and I hope they are better than these so far. and others involving God moving miraculously to reveal crucial things at certain times within an extraordinarily complex prophecy that involves hundreds of verses.Your God isn't making this easy is he? I have not included all of these reasons because others would likely not accept them as legitimate. There are reasons for that Dave. They are, however, on MY much longer list (now 56 total). I love that "MY" thing. Please no more lists! You're one under Ron Weinland's 57 truths! Go for 70! And these reasons stand on bedrock in the eyes of ALL our Headquarters ministers. Yeah..we talked about those guys and how they agree with everything you think, do and say.
Again, some of these other reasons—VERY POWERFUL POINTS—can only be brought out when I go into other scriptures in the final two announcements (these are verses outside Haggai, not yet covered). Theologians call that proof texting. I will carefully denote these reasons when we come to them. There are at least seven or eight. Come on...is it sever or eight? Reminds me of a guy once who said "about 11 people were in attendance." What? Was the number too high to count to so he estimated? Sheesh.
Of course, none of these 21 "proofs" are proofs of anything. These are merely speculations about hallucinations. Dave has tied a very complicated knot that either the brain dead are hoping someone will untie and explain to and for them or just trust these things to be so and see what happens. As we all know from history, all knots can be undone. You don't have to untie it to figure out how it all went together. Sometimes you just have to cut through it.
David C Pack is not spoken of in the Minor Prophet Haggai. The Restored Church of God is not where the lives of Herbert W Armstrong and David C Pack meet. HWA was no real Zerubbabel in fact or prophecy and Dave Pack is no manifestation of any Joshua The High Priest. IMHO or you haven't kept up with the history of religious delusional thinking.
This , "Oh look...there is me spoken of in the Bible," has never ended well for sincere or deluded humans who seek a hope and meaning in life but leave the details to others. . Sometimes it's just KNOT safe to let one person lead you down his path of self and ego centric meaning. Sometimes you just need a BS slicer.
Contact Dennis at DennisCDiehl@aol.com