Friday, August 9, 2013

Dennis on: 'The Three Shepherds: Exposing the soft underbelly of " ABCD and XY and Z "

Soft Underbelly Exposed

The newly appointed and self ordained Joshua the High Priest which was, and is and  meant to be, David C Packstrong is very mislead in his strange and weird ideas about the intended meaning of Zechariah 11 and in particular verse 8. 

Let's just remind ourselves one more time why this is important to point this out and that we have complete permission from DCP to do so.

", if I became deceived, I will never tell you what I'm going to tell you now...I am telling you if I go off into strange ideas, misconduct, rebellion, you name it, don't follow me. I want to tell you that now, because if I start doing that I'm gonna try to get you to follow me! I'm gonna come to you and tell you it doesn't apply, it doesn't mean me, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's OK to follow me because ABCD and XY and Z. Do you understand what I'm saying?"

I can't speak for the members of the Restored Church of God to whom this was spoken, but , yes I do understand Dave and I'm going to keep it up until you do.  We are in the last three weeks, according to David Pack before the Grand Unification, which seems to me more a Grand Uni-fiction, of all the splinters left over from the WCG implosion over the last two decades.  Within Dave's strange and weird ideas about himself as being the fulfillment of what the minor prophet Haggai was getting at concerning the mere type of Joshua the High Priest in the actual book of Haggai.  What Haggai really meant was David C Pack and the Restored Church of God.  Crazy I know, but it's written in Bible Code according to Dave and he has the keys to unlock the code.  Actually he says the code is easy to unlock if you let the Bible interpret the Bible but then if it is an easy code why bother with a code at all.  Double talk if you ask me.

Please bare with me on this. I have chosen the core of what Dave seems to believe about the meaning of Zecharia 11 and not included all the ramblings and cockeyed reasonings that lead up to this.  Let's just say that Dave has a tendency to concoct a mistaken meaning which we will call concocted meaning and mistaken interpretation number one and from that flow ever more misleading and misguided mistakes which add up to truth in Dave's view.  If you can't see it, I can't help you. The idea that Dave is seeing the literal demise of three COG ministers in one day to satisfy his misconceptions of both himself and what Scripture actually means or at least does not mean is simply outrageous to me .  If Dave would go by his own judgmental criteria, he'd be one if not all three of these "men" he thinks Haggai speaks about.

I am personally hoping I can get through this brief article as this week, according to David C Packstrong aka Joshua the Real High Priest of Haggai, was a real milestone in his imaginary prophetic musings.

"Jesus Christ is a shepherd. He is about to again actively shepherd His flock—starting Elul 1 (August 6/7). What should He be expected to do to wolves now in His path? What would any good shepherd do when he sees wolves close by—in this case among and over—his flock? Remove them!"

While I am not a Shepherd, I am sure if my heart quit in the midst of this article, you'd have your proof that Dave is indeed the chosen one of Haggai.  According to Dave, Jesus Christ has been inactive in the Church up to yesterday the 6th but that has now changed.  In my personal experience, when past Apostles and Evangelists said, "Christ is moving mightily in the Church, it was a quiet kind of mighty that was not very noticeable but "if you say so" comes to mind. 

So take a quick look once again...

From Two Culminating Events:Screed 24

"Zechariah 11:8: “Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and My soul loathed them, and their soul also abhorred Me.”

Now the second culminating event. We saw the “shepherds” throughout Zechariah cannot be religious leaders overseeing congregations (flocks) in the world. Otherwise, which three ministers would it be referencing? We could never know. And what would the removal of ANY three worldly ministers, occurring in ANY particular month, ever have to do with God being able to feed a flock that was being slaughtered? Remember, we saw this flock is His flock. No matter how influential any three worldly ministers might be, their removal from power would not affect GOD’S PEOPLE. Protestant ministers and Catholic priests are not deceiving (slaughtering) God’s people. Do you know a single person who thinks they are?

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(Comment: Dave can't imagine the Three Shepherds can be other than three humans.  Theology begs to differ with him as the Bible and real history unfolded to show it can mean categories of rulership as well.  Right from the start here, Dave has gone off the rails and all that follows in his reasonings is just an ongoing train wreck of one wrong idea reinforcing the next wrong idea.)

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But the time has come for God to deal with these three men. They have gone from being in God’s purpose to being IN HIS WAY. For over two decades, modern enemies have thwarted God’s Work. Top leaders have bought and sold God’s people to enrich themselves. These wolves have kidnapped the brethren, stolen God’s tithes and blocked HIS Work from advancing to the size and scope that it should have and still must reach.

Jesus Christ is a shepherd. He is about to again actively shepherd His flock—starting Elul 1 (August 6/7). What should He be expected to do to wolves now in His path? What would any good shepherd do when he sees wolves close by—in this case among and over—his flock? Remove them! II Peter 2 describes “swift destruction” falling on certain false teachers. At a point, their “judgment” no longer “lingers” and their “damnation” no longer “slumbers.” We have almost reached this time.

Some will ask: WHEN exactly will Christ remove the three men? Starting with the fact that Christ is a shepherd, we might ask: How long would any active shepherd tolerate wolves who are threatening His flock when He holds the power to address them? It will certainly not be on the last day of His purpose, but rather some time likely well before that date. The following should help. The remnant is not listening. Christ knows this—and why. He can change it. How long would He wait to do this?

Each day lost with the remnant not hearing Him is a day less for them to recover. There are only 24 days total for the people to act. The same is true with Christ organizing their move and a complex merger. There are only 24 days total for the people to act. Yet again, the same is true with ministers who may be battling other wolves in their organizations as they strive to save sheep—and to establish themselves again as faithful ministers before God. There are only 24 days total for these ministers to act. We will see how long Christ waits…

Dramatic supernatural intervention is necessary for God to regather His flock—a flock trapped under a constant barrage of lies and deceit. Zechariah 11 should not be surprising. All of this is something GOD does—and ONLY God could do—not any man. No human being could ever carry out such things. God would never ask them to—or permit them to. Of course, His enemies happily assert otherwise about us. It is in their devil-inspired interest to spew their insane, hateful accusations. But at least these “haters of the Lord” (Psa. 81:15) always come as advertised—they are easy to identify for people thinking even a little. God will soon enough also “reward them according to their works” (II Tim. 4:14).

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Getting the Remnant’s Attention

By dealing with and removing top leaders, God gets His people’s attention. The remnant finally starts listening to Him again. Recall Haggai. There is a point when brethren become frightened—now better understood to be because of what God did. They suddenly begin “considering their ways” after years of ignoring God. Any parent knows that to get his child to listen sometimes he must bring punishment. God is no different. He must traumatize His people to wake them up to their condition—but also remove the sources of deceit that are blocking their ability to see events and conditions as they are, and to see their own spiritual complacency. Although the event of Zechariah 11:8 is big, it is not the only thing that brings God’s people back together. Something else BIGGER happens—the powerful stirring of God’s Spirit for over three weeks as God works with His people."

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Dave Pack is the only human being in the history of Old Testament theology and studies to come to these dramatic yet misguided conclusions about what it all means.  Of course, in the ever continuing saga of the WCG and Herbert W Armstrong, those captured by it's many errors and personality cult like aspects, like Dave, have kept it going reenacting, in their own minds, all the early first century church dramas.  Dave, like many, read their Bibles as it the contents were written to them personally yesterday and not to others thousands of years ago.  It's why "Jesus is coming soon" and "Time is short" can be read today to people with no grasping that these words were for others 2000 years ago and they were wrong.  The idea that "and that's exactly why those scriptures are for us today," is equally as insane and wrong and an apologetic that won't die soon enough.  Probably never.

So for your consideration and balance, who are the Three Shepherds that must die in "one day" according to men who don't see themselves spoken of in the scriptures by the minor prophet Haggai?  You owe it to yourself at least to see what the view of it has been over the past 2500 years.  If you then end up thinking it really is Dave Pack being spoken of and that these Three Shepherds are really three deceiving, lying and money hungry Church of God notables as Dave counts notability, then knock yourself out.  I personally believe you are in for a big fall on your face along with Mr. Packstrong. 

Three shepherds also I cut off in one month
Not Moses, Aaron, and Miriam, as is suggested in the Talmud F5; nor David, Adonijah, and Joab, who died in the space of a month; nor the three kings, Jehoash, Jehoiakim, and Zedekiah, who died by the hand of their enemies in a very little time; which is the sense of some, as Abendana observes; nor the three last prophets, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi, according to Aben Ezra; nor the three Maccabees, Judas, Jonathan, and Simon, as Abarbinel; rather the three sects among the Jews, the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes, instead of which last some put the Herodians; and others the Scribes; though some are of opinion that the three sanhedrim or courts of judicature among the Jews are designed; but it seems best of all to interpret them of the three orders of magistrates among them, princes, prophets, and priests; and the "cutting" them "off" may denote the cessation of civil government, the sealing up of vision and prophecy, and the putting an end to sacrifice; which is much better than to interpret them of the three Roman emperors who succeeded Nero; that is, Galba, Otho, and Vitellius, who were put to death by their own subjects, within the space of a year and some days F6; and which is a term of time that can not well be thought to be expressed by a month; which either signifies in general a small space of time; or, if a certain month is meant, either it designs the month Nisan, in which Christ suffered, when of right sacrifice should have ceased, as well as then prophecy was sealed up, and there was no more of it among the Jews, nor any civil government in their hands: or else the month Ab, in which the city of Jerusalem was burnt; and so an end was put in fact to all the above offices there. It may be that a month of years is intended, as in ( Revelation 11:2 ) ( 13:5 ) and so Abarbinel here interprets it; though he applies it to the times of the Maccabees; but it may respect the thirty years, or thereabout, which were between the death of Christ and the destruction of Jerusalem, within which compass of time the above events were actually and manifestly fulfilled: and my soul loathed them;
because they did not perform the duties of their office; the civil magistrate did not govern according to the laws of God; the prophets did not teach sound doctrine; and the priests did not do their service aright, nor teach the people the use and end of sacrifices, and in them direct to the Messiah, as they should have done: wherefore Christ expressed his dislike of them by words in his ministry, particularly in Matthew chapter twenty three, ( Matthew 23:1-39 ) and by deeds, causing vengeance to come upon them to the entire removal of them: or, "my soul was shortened", or "contracted in them", or "towards them" F7; his affections were lessened towards them; he loathed their ways and works, which were not good; and he rejected and cast them off as his people, and wrote a "loammi" on them; took away his Gospel from them, and abolished their civil and church state: and their soul also abhorred me; which is the reason of the former; and so the Targum paraphrases it,
``and my Word cast them away, because their soul abhorred my worship;''

all ranks and orders of men among the Jews had Christ in abhorrence; they abhorred his person, his name, his miracles, his doctrines, his ordinances, and his people; this they did because of his mean appearance; and because of his inveighing against their traditions, superstitions, and immoralities; and this appeared by their contemptuous rejection of him as the Messiah; by their crucifixion of him; and by persecuting his disciples and followers.

And here:

Zechariah Verse 8

"And I cut off the three shepherds in one month; for my soul was weary of them, and their soul also loathed me."
"The three shepherds ..." We identify these with the three classes of evil shepherds which dominated the life of Israel during the ministry of Christ, the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Herodians. Lewis believed that, "No clue to the identity of these persons is available";[20] but Zechariah 11:5 seems definitely to be such a clue. See under that verse, above. It seems clear enough, as Keil affirmed, that, "The persons occurring in this vision are not individuals, but classes of men."[21] Despite the fact of commentators having identified the "three shepherds .... in at least forty different ways,"[22] we strongly feel that none of the identifications we have seen fills the bill so exactly as that we have accepted.
"In one month ..." Such an expression in any prophecy usually stands for "a little time"; and as Henry stated, after mentioning the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Herodians as a possible identification, "All of them Christ silenced in dispute (Matthew 22) and soon after cut off, in a little time."[23] Mitchell's assertion that Zechariah representing Jehovah in this verse could not possibly have been the one seen, "destroying three other shepherds for the same offence he was instructed to commit,"[24] is merely a case of failure to distinguish between the false shepherds (those destroyed) and the Good Shepherd who "cut them off." Some theologians do not believe that God will ever "cut off" any one, no matter what they do. Evidently the ancient enemies of Jesus spoken of in this verse were of the same opinion. However, the tragic destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in A.D. 70 nevertheless occurred.

Verse 9
"Then said I, I will not feed you: that which dieth, let it die; and that which is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let them that are left eat every one the flesh of another."

Here is detailed the attitude that Mitchell and other critics consider to be impossible in God; but when all else fails, God throughout human history has destroyed the incorrigibly wicked. The first great example of it was the deluge that swept over the ancient world. The whole theology of judicial hardening is little understood, but it is a fact, none the less. As Gill said:

"Here the prophet states his intention not to feed the flock but to let it die. This brings to mind two key passages. One in which Jesus wept over the city of Jerusalem because of her historic failure to heed the prophets (Luke 13:33-35), and the other one in which he predicted the destruction of the city (Luke 21:5,6)."[25]

Horrible as this prophecy for Israel appears, it was literally fulfilled. "Even the cannibalism described here was fulfilled literally during the final days of the siege of Titus."[26] Sword, pestilence, and famine, the three great destroyers in all wars, appear here under the metaphor appropriate to a shepherd and the sheep."

The point is that there have been many many interpretations of Haggai since the day it was written.  The Three Shepherds have been a multitude of three priests, offices and politicians. Everyone wanted to make it mean something in THEIR day over the last 2500 years.  Dave Pack is just one more and probably the worst, example of over reaching and delussional thinking on the topic.  99.9999999999% of humanity had never heard of HWA and it is worse for DCP as if being heard of proves anything either. 


So perhaps this can be a more balanced view of what Zecharia 11:8 can also mean or has meant.  I don't personally have a need to pick any meaning as in my studies and current views Prophets who write and people who believe are on a different journey than I am in such matters. 

Prophets in the Old Testament were not nearly as accurate as credited.  They are often romanticized and some exhibit ALL the characteristics of mental illnesses we know of in our times.  A schizophrenic, narcissist or one with temporal lobe epilepsy , back in the day, could easily been misunderstood as having special powers and visions that today we would treat with medications and hope for a recovery.  We take prophets of old much more seriously than we would ever take one today.  We reject modern day prophets and the religiously whacked out very quickly today because we actually get to see how they behave, think and teach.  If I laid siege to a frying pan, laid on my side for a year and flipped over for more, drilled a hole in the temple and went in with my backpack on, cooked my food either with or in my own dung depending on how you read it and married a prostitute, I doubt I'd get much sympathy from you.  Ezekiel or others do it in the distant past  and wow...they are  awesome and speak for God Almighty. 

David C Pack, the self appointed, ordained and set apart Apostle who is Herbert Armstrong Part II of Team Zerubbabel/Joshua is as wrong as any human can be about himself and this view of what the Bible actually intended.  Dave, as was Herbert Armstrong or at least those around him, is a master at making ancient scripture written for one reason mean what it never meant.  Dave is not an educated theologian (neither am I).  Dave is not well trained in the disciplines needed to tell others what the Bible even says and why much less means. Dave has turned the Book of Haggai into a giant YES lesson and come to very very wrong conclusions.  

Dave Pack is NOT any Joshua of Haggai.  Never was and never will be.  That is truly a ego centric and totally bogus claim on his part. It is rather sad actually to view scripture in such a flippant manner and it is pathetic theology. I will continue to offer both caution and an opposing view as long as this foolishness goes on. 

 Dave does not seek a multitude of counsel on such matters that he does not already know ahead of time he will get approval of.  Those 16 who could not agree more with Dave in everything he comes up with should be ashamed of themselves and don't tell me you all actually do agree with what you see and hear.  I know your job is at stake. I also know that when you live in a very small world, cloistered behind walls of dogmatic foolishness and under the sway of one human being, you can lose touch with reality.  The story makes sense in the mind until it doesn't.  We all know now what process you probably had to go through to even get the job and it is pretty pathetic.  Dave has put you all in a very time sensitive and very bad position so I suppose we shall see soon now.  If you dare come up with, "God is obviously giving us more time to reach the world," or "God in his mercy is giving COG members and ministers more time to repent and come to RCG, "  We will be back.....


Anonymous said...

"Jesus Christ is a shepherd. He is about to again actively shepherd His flock—starting Elul 1 (August 6/7)."

What an impostor, LIAR! What he is saying is that JC took a break from shepherding the flock. Well he is also admitting Christ has not been with his own "flock", this is true.

Well, Elul to the Jews is a time of repentance, prayers for forgiveness and mercy, for which Pack does not mention or consider.

His mind is so reprobate that I think there is no returning.

Byker Bob said...

Josephus stated that the Romans actually wanted to save Jerusalem in 70 AD, as it was one of a handful of beautiful and exemplary cities within the Roman Empire at that time. However, there were three militant groups of Jews in Jerusalem, vying for power amongst themselves, exerting control over large numbers of the citizenry, and dedicated to resisting the Romans. These three internal groups made saving Jerusalem impossible. He also documents that there was massive deprivation leading up to the final events, including starvation and cannibalism.

This at the very least would merit the inclusion of the leaders of these three groups as candidates for Zechariah's shepherds. Who, outside of a very small group of individuals even knows about ACOG splinters or could name the leaders? And, since there are nearly 700 splinters, and numerous independents, why only 3?
Just because these people self-define their groups as being God's only true Philadelphian church does not make it so. They claim to be working from the criteria defined and established by HWA, much of it extrabiblical, and based on HWA's own pet theories. This farce could not even exist as a construct if we removed the possibility of several alleged end time apostleships.


Douglas Becker said...

Is it 1913 ALREADY!!!???!!?

Or is it the previous century to 1913.

Is that A.D. or B.C.?

Nothing like living in the past and a delusional one at that.

DennisCDiehl said...

Good overview BB. While I personally don't believe Haggai is speaking about any NT Jesus either or the Fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, the point is that once the three were mentioned, it has been a free for all for thousands of years on three who or what? That ist he nature of prophecy. It leaves itself eternally open for the ages to come to play with and be wrong.


Byker Bob said...

Just happened to think. The safest thing to be right now, with Pack on the rampage is Black!