Sunday, November 10, 2013

Dennis dreams about:


Jude 1:8

English Standard Version (ESV)
Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams...

(Funda-mental-ism is a dream job)

Very shortly after the Tkaches had whittled the Greenville congregation down from about 450 to less than a hundred and I was sent on my way  (Thank you Jebus) , I had a dream.  A white ball of light burst into  three balls of light, which later  I realized looked very similar to the Microsoft logo which spun my computer to start, appeared in the sky.  The now smaller white one came down to me , elongated in the horizontal and morphed into an Angel.  I asked it, "How do you fly?"   The Angel said nothing but put a vest it was wearing on me and I took off like a bird soaring over the landscape.  Ahead was a huge log structure like the lodge at Yellowstone but bigger.  I soared into the rafters and a huge crowd below, having lunch after the morning Feast Service applauded the landing.  I slowly descended to the floor to find a seat for lunch and EVERY TIME I approached an empty seat, the person put their hand on it and said "Sorry, this seat is taken.'   Exasperated, I flew away.  The end.

For years after that I dreamed nightly of being a co-pilot in a jet where the pilot never spoke or looked at me. EVERY TIME we tried to take off, a canopy of trees would grow over the runway and we never got off  the ground. We crashed.  I'd scream at the pilot to hurry and take off. He never did.  I was never hurt and just watched the plane burn.  Over and over..co-pilot/runway/trees/crash...    

Then I had a talk with myself.  "The next time you dream this...don't scream at the pilot...fly the plane yourself.   It took some time but finally that dream came where here comes the fast growing canopy of trees and I burst through them before they engulfed the runway.  

My mind was processing my change of career and my life long bad habit of letting others fly my own life and crash it at will. That is all the dreams were about.  I had Incorporated my love of airplanes, with Microsoft logos, log buildings that I love and would love to live in, crashing airplanes and the need to pilot and fly on my own into my dreams.  I understood my head was talking to my heart and I had to change some things now that I was no longer a Mr. Diehl.  I needed to stop letting others control me and determine my happiness because if I let them pilot my life, I will crash every time. It was a painful lesson and there were big prices to pay, but I got the point my mind was making to me which I no doubt had, all my life, understood to be something I was weak in and needed to change. 

The dreams were not from any God, "trying to tell me something."  It was Dennis talking to Mr. Diehl about his mid-life crisis, need to awaken or grow up, take your choose....

It is absurd that a man who claims to be a "Doctor" and now had designated himself a "Prophet" to imply it is because he dreamed it and dreams come from God.  Dreams do not come from God.  What kind of a God would wish to transmit absolutely vital information to EVERYONE by giving a dream to ONE person that ain't all that credible or skilled in communication?  Dreams come from central processing of emotions, needs, wants and desires.  Humans have been dreaming since they became conscious of being conscious beings.  It is how the mind works.   I don't care if Joseph of the Old Testament was a dreamer and God got to him during his dreams. I don't care if Nebuchadnezzar had dreams that Daniel needed to interpret for him and they always favored the interpreter or the one who dreamed an knew exactly what it all meant.  The real problem is that one can say they had a dream about some profound truth  and that now they are special because God says so, in the dream, and it can never be verified.  Those who need titles often dream God gave them that title and it's just up to the faithful to take that on faith.  One just has to believe the dreamer is not also a liar.  

Dreams, made up by writers, can be useful in persuasion and getting readers to accept foregone conclusions the dreamer has come to.  It was convenient to have Pilate's wife dream that Jesus was a good and innocent guy because the need was to portray Jesus as a good and innocent guy in the story. Just who heard this private conversation between Pilate and his wife is never explained.  How they got the info on this dream is not known because it is just made up for the sake of the story.  It is the same with Jesus agony in garden.  It was needful for the story teller to show Jesus in agnony, torn, afraid and just like us but with resolve to die if that's what God wanted. It's how you make a man "fully God and fully human."   If all the disciples were sleeping, Jesus is alone and "afar off", then just who wrote down exactly what Jesus said in his head or out loud in the Garden?  Immediately after this, in the story, Jesus is arrested.  Did he yell, when being led away..."Write this down!!!!" ?  Of course not.  It is part of the passion story and the drama of the writer. 

Most if not all of the long winded speeches in the Gospels and Acts are not what someone actually said.  No one could get that all exactly right on the spot.  It is what the author imagined the character would say if they were to say it or were in a situation where talking about that situation would be necessary for the flow of the story.  It was a Greek style of writing.  No one wrote down word for word what Stephen said before being stoned or what Jesus said only in John 13-17 which I read every passover and almost fell asleep doing it.  It's a writing style used to tell a story.

Anyway...back to the Dreamer Bob Thiel.  Bob says:

"Do dreams and prophets have any place in the Christian Church today?  Are any related to the Continuing Church of God (which did not officially form as a declared entity until December 28, 2012)? - "


Answer:  NO

Bob Continues

"The Bible shows that God often chooses to work with prophets through a dream:
6 “Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision;
I speak to him in a dream. (Numbers 12:6)
Notice that the above says that God will speak to His prophet in a dream. Notice also:
28 The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream (Jeremiah 23:28)"

 Answer:  The reason the Bible says this is that Bronze Age humans knew nothing about the origins of dreams and assumed a coherent dream must be from the gods.  It was not any god but Priests in the captivity that wrote Numbers and I well imagine it was stressful being in exile in Babylon for them.  

Please notice that in your Bible God starts out speaking like buddies to Adam and Eve, face to face. Then theological evolution takes place and God speaks in clouds and pillars of fire.  God chooses the occasional bush to speak through as well. Convenient for sure as daytime has clouds and night time needs light to see what the God is doing and the Sinai is full of scrub bushes.  Later God has to speak only through selected prophets who alone know what is going on and Kings and people just get stuck having to believe them or not.  Adam and Eve had no problem believing it was God speaking to them in the story.  The Psalms show the disconnect with the oft repeated lament of "why art thou so far from us?" As time went on, it became more difficult to know if it was really God speaking and then we have to deal with vain dreamers and lying prophets as seen by others who don't believe them.  I am sure the opposing parties had to find lying prophets in the crowd to make the difference between themselves and them.  Finally, God just basically disappears and we are lead to rely only on "Thus said the Lord," or the stories written by men who speak for God.  Of course we have oracles at Delphi, casting of bones, Urim and Thummin, divination and the study of goat guts thriving to figure out what God wants or is doing. I am sure any prohibition against such was designed to discourage use of the Bronze Age Internet to find out for oneself what may or may not be going on.  Priests and competing prophets are like that! Hebrews tells us that finally all that is done away and now we learn stuff through God's Son.  The problem is that God's Son never writes anything himself, only hangs around one to three years depending on which Gospel you read, disappears and never is heard from again until oral traditions and stories are written down and we get all we ever need to know now in what we call The Word of God-The Bible. 

Let me Dare to Be a Daniel with Bob dream of his rising star status in COGdom.  At least Dave Pack and Ron Weinland didn't inflict their dreams on the members to convince.  They just took the titles and beat the brethren down with hour after hour and week after week sermons "proving" that they had every right to declare themselves apostles or witnesses.  I guess I'd prefer a dream just to get it over with faster. 


"I was 50 at the time (which essentially makes me an ‘old man’  per Numbers 8:25; cf. John 8:57) See, I am like a Bible guy.  Bob needs to wonder why the Pharisees would say Jesus was not yet 50 when he was barely late 20's or early 30's  Nobody says that to guys that age.... In my dream, there seemed to be two parallel lines. Living Church of God (LCG) evangelist Roderick Meredith was on the top line and I was on the line much below. See, I was a good part of the church but knew I was special in my unconscious mind and wanted more recognition but RCM was in charge.  I am in line for promotion but can't get it, sooooooo.......In the dream, I kept calling up to Dr. Meredith, but he never would respond.  This lack of response made no sense to me during the dream. Then after what seemed to be a long time, the lines-crossed with his line dropping and my line going up. See, no one would listen to me (trust me-as a pastor there were many people it was hard to take and listen to when they got some lame idea about themselves and the Bible)  The lack of response making no sense means Bob has always thought more highly of himself, like Dave Pack and Ron Weinland, than he ought to think. But finally, I realized I must increase while he must ,mmldecrease.  Bob is John the Baptist in reverse.
One reason that I did not understand it at the time was that I was on relatively close speaking terms with Dr. Meredith then, so that aspect made of the dream made no sense  See, it made no sense because I was getting along with him. Being on "speaking terms" means Bob viewed himself as special and an equal.  He was no friend to RCM but merely, on speaking terms.    "Made no sense" = Bob was not willing to admit outwardly to his inward feelings quite yet.  It was going to take an imagined sign from God to do that. . Also, since I had no intentions of leaving Living Church of God then (and certainly no plans to start a separate church), it was not clear what the dream was saying. Another reason I was unsure about the dream then was that I had not had any anointing for the Holy Spirit beyond baptism when I had it. "  See, I was not used to thinking about striking out on my own and I did have thoughts about starting my own church along the way. In hind site, now that i have a special anointing that I found because I was looking for one I can say humble stuff like this.  He may have had no plans to start a church, but he had subconscious alternatives brewing. 

"But these matters changed eventually. See, I finally got fed up with no one listening to me or taking my counsel and advice when I went to Charlotte to make myself available to LCG. For one, I was unexpectedly anointed for a ‘double-portion’ of God’s Spirit (cf. 2 Kings 2:9) on December 15, 2011 by an LCG minister named Gaylyn Bonjour. "  For one thing, I found a glitch in the system I could hang on to for my proof of my awesome self.  God tricked Gaylyn "Good Day" and it was a very good day for Bob, in his mind.  Shades of Gerald "Strong Arm" Waterhouse!

I won't belabor the point which I believe we get.  Human being dream for lots of reasons.  Dreams can be fun or terrifying.  They can make us think about meaning and indeed, when the head is speaking to the heart or the heart to the head internally and processing life for us and our emotions, intents and secret wishes, it can all seem very meaningful.  However, the meaning is for the person who dreams and not necessarily or ever something OTHERS have to buy into.   Like eclipse conscious Jesuits who tricked Native Americans into believing them by saying if they didn't the moon would swallow the sun tomorrow, dreamers can con both themselves and others into feeling special and on missions from God.  They are not special and the missions are suppressed needs in their minds and lives. There is no God "trying to communicate" with them. 

Let's be reminded of what we, not living in the Bronze Age, have learned about dreams.

Psychoanalytic Theory of Dreams: (About.com  Psychology/dreams)

Consistent with the psychoanalytic perspective, Sigmund Freud’s theory of dreams suggested that dreams were a representation of unconscious desires, thoughts and motivations.According to Freud’s psychoanalytic view of personality, people are driven by aggressive and sexual instincts that are repressed from conscious awareness. While these thoughts are not consciously expressed, Freud suggested that they find their way into our awareness via dreams.
In his famous book The Interpretation of Dreams, Freud wrote that dreams are "...disguised fulfillment of repressed wishes."1 He also described two different components of dreams: manifest content and latent content. Manifest content is made up of the actual images, thoughts and content contained within the dream, while the latent content represents the hidden psychological meaning of the dream.

Other Theories of Dreams: 

Many other theories have been suggested to account for the occurrence and meaning of dreams. The following are just of few of the proposed ideas:
  • One theory suggests that dreams are the result of our brains trying to interpret external stimuli during sleep. For example, the sound of the radio may be incorporated into the content of a dream 5.

  • Another theory uses a computer metaphor to account for dreams. According to this theory, dreams serve to 'clean up' clutter from the mind, much like clean-up operations in a computer, refreshing the mind to prepare for the next day 6.

  • Yet another model proposes that dreams function as a form of psychotherapy. In this theory, the dreamer is able to make connections between different thoughts and emotions in a safe environment 7.

  • A contemporary model of dreaming combines some elements of various theories. The activation of the brain creates loose connections between thoughts and ideas, which are then guided by the emotions of the dreamer 8.
Dreams are internalized needs, emotions and frustrations that need to find a place in the life of the dreamer.  "I had a dream" can be very manipulative and have been used by the clever through out history to sway the minds of others to the views of the "dreamer."  Writers, such as the writer of Daniel, in the 160's and not the 585's BCE and those given to visions in their heads which are just dreams in Revelation are expression the angst of the times.  In both cases, the dreams did not come to pass as advertised and Rome crushed the dreamers.  Of course, then the dreamer kicks into "it not time yet, close the book...until."  They say things like "if not this Pentecost, then next" and "I will reveal certain expansive elements" of the dream, vision or prophecy soon.

I believe with all my heart that Bob Thiel is sincere.  He is not being manipulative in this matter.  He is being silly, self centered and is ignorant of how his own mind and human nature works because it is all mixed up with Bronze Age Bible ignorance in the classic God-Haunted kind of way common to many fundamentalist and Bible literalists who have no clue as to the origins, politic and original intent of the very scriptures they cherish so much. 


15 comments:

Byker Bob said...

Even if we don't inject Dennis's personal perspectives on theology into the current situation with Bob Thiel, it is obvious from Bob's total ineffectiveness that he does not have any kind of calling from God to be doing what he is attempting. Straight logic should have told him that just in the past several months.

COGwriter was always a rather puerile attempt as an apology site for Rod Meredith, and several alleged members or past members of LCG (iirc) had even anonymously posted right here that he was not widely respected amongst their membership, but was seen as an additional self-inserted layer in the structure that was better off ignored. But, hey, what do we know? I've attended a memorial service at a small Christian non-denominational church pastored by a man who admittedly had been a career garbage truck driver.

Personally, I was always hoping that through Dennis's wise counseling, Bob would repent of his attempts at ministry, and they could then start their own company, "Diehl and Thiel Physiotherapy". It'd be a great way to build a nice retirement fund, as a friend of mine has recently done with and for his parents with a printing company.

BB

Byker Bob said...

"The dream is a little hidden door to the innermost and most secret recesses of the soul, opening into that cosmic night which was psyche long before there was any ego-consciousness, and which will remain psyche no matter how far our ego-consciousness extends." Carl Jung

Corky said...

If you really want to dream get a prescription for Chantix from your doctor. Yeah, yeah I know, it's a smoking cessation drug that doesn't really work but it does work wonders for having vivid dreams and nightmares as a side effect.

Caution: if the drug makes you decide to murder your wife for the good of the world, stop taking it and contact your doctor immediately.

Now, I don't know what drug the CoG splinter apostles are on but I don't want any of it...no thanks. I also don't want any of that drug that makes people pretend to know things they don't know. The bad part of that drug is they want others to pretend to know know things they don't know too.

I'm glad Dennis finally won out over Mr. Diehl...welcome to the sunshine!

Joe Moeller said...

Im surprised by people who have the same dream over and over again, like what happened to Dennis. I never have had that in my own experience. No reruns here, just first airings I guess!

Most dreams seem to be nonsensical and silly to me. I have never applied much significance to them for that reason.

On rare occasion I will have an "erotic" dream of some sort, but before I do something immoral, or it gets started to be really exciting, I always wake up.

Unlike Dennis, if I try to go back to sleep hoping to somehow "splice the film back" to the exciting part, it never works!

Guess Im an old loyal married guy deep down in my heart and soul! LOL!

Joe Moeller
Cody, WY

Anonymous said...

Dreams serve no purpose. The mind is like a computer. At night half the chips are unplugged and it does not process information properly. Simple as that. Most people can't think logically even when awake; how much worse when half their brain is asleep.

DennisCDiehl said...

One repetative dream as well is that of being announced to give the sermon for the feast and I am way up in the balconey, can't find my Bible and can't get to the stage as there is no way down from the balconey.

I also have a repetative dream of trying to get from Buffalo to Rochester, walking and trying to figure out the direction. Go figure. I then am visiting members on a tricycle, then the next dream it's a go kart and a bicycle. I concluded that whereever I am trying to "GO", the vehicles I am using are inadequate for the trip. Of late, the vehicles are becoming more promising . The latest was a bus that I am trying to load up to leave summer camp and I can't ever get it loaded up to leave.
I'd make good material for Freud. LOL

DennisCDiehl said...

One repetative dream as well is that of being announced to give the sermon for the feast and I am way up in the balconey, can't find my Bible and can't get to the stage as there is no way down from the balconey.

I also have a repetative dream of trying to get from Buffalo to Rochester, walking and trying to figure out the direction. Go figure. I then am visiting members on a tricycle, then the next dream it's a go kart and a bicycle. I concluded that whereever I am trying to "GO", the vehicles I am using are inadequate for the trip. Of late, the vehicles are becoming more promising . The latest was a bus that I am trying to load up to leave summer camp and I can't ever get it loaded up to leave.
I'd make good material for Freud. LOL

Byker Bob said...

I think it's normal to have repeating dreams. Many times, I've dreamed that I began to flap my arms and was suddenly flying. It was really a challenge watching out for the power lines. But, overall it was fun until in one dream, I flew over a bunch of WCG people going in to sabbath services, and they started pointing up towards me and saying I was demon possessed.

Another recurring dream is that I'm back in high school and can't remember my locker combination or when my classes are. Then, suddenly I can't find my clothes after gym class and end up walking the halls in my BVDs.

Others involve suddenly discovering and reacquiring my favorite hotrod of all times, or our old mailing crew at AC Press being reassembled for a very special hush hush project. We're all around reminiscing, and I'm setting up the machines, but the work never comes in. Ol' Siggy would probably have a blast with that one!

BB

Byker Bob said...

I think it's normal to have repeating dreams. Many times, I've dreamed that I began to flap my arms and was suddenly flying. It was really a challenge watching out for the power lines. But, overall it was fun until in one dream, I flew over a bunch of WCG people going in to sabbath services, and they started pointing up towards me and saying I was demon possessed.

Another recurring dream is that I'm back in high school and can't remember my locker combination or when my classes are. Then, suddenly I can't find my clothes after gym class and end up walking the halls in my BVDs.

Others involve suddenly discovering and reacquiring my favorite hotrod of all times, or our old mailing crew at AC Press being reassembled for a very special hush hush project. We're all around reminiscing, and I'm setting up the machines, but the work never comes in. Ol' Siggy would probably have a blast with that one!

BB

DennisCDiehl said...

bb said:

"Another recurring dream is that I'm back in high school and can't remember my locker combination or when my classes are."

Oh my...that's another one! Exactly! Then I can't find the office where they give out the schedules. I also dream of getting to the end of the year and not having attended gym class enough to graduate.

DennisCDiehl said...

bb said:

"Another recurring dream is that I'm back in high school and can't remember my locker combination or when my classes are."

Oh my...that's another one! Exactly! Then I can't find the office where they give out the schedules. I also dream of getting to the end of the year and not having attended gym class enough to graduate.

Lake of Fire Church of God said...

I have a repetitive dream that I have about every six months or so. The dream is that I am in College and its semester end and time for my class finals. The anxiety in the dream is that I haven’t attended class all semester or even picked up a book to study!

Richard

Anonymous said...

I have a rather rich dream life, but don't make too much of them in terms of trying to decipher their meanings.

But I thought I'd add that I also recently had a dream wherein I could not remember the combination to my school locker.

Go figure.

Anonymous said...

As someone much wiser than myself once quipped, may all your dreams be wet ones!

Anonymous said...

Talking about dreams (or nightmares?! Lol) about being back in high school I always have dreams of either being late for a math exam or not knowing I've got a math exam & having not studied beforehand! I get all anxious thinking I'm going to fail maths but then I wake up & am I so relieved! :-) It's weird also as a lot of my dreams of high school it's always dark out or the sky is full of dark clouds. Other dreams I have I'm in a teaching role. Even last nite for instance I dreamt I was a student & some Asian dude was talking about astrology I think as he was going on about how each star in a constellation of stars means different things about you & your future. Must've been the Magnum ice cream I had last nite?! Lol