Wednesday, December 3, 2014

Crack's in the Defense of Herbert Armstrong and Ellen G White's Prophet Status



Below is an article that appeared on an ex-SDA Facebook page.  It is about Ellen G White and the belief that she was a prophet.  If you substitute her name with Herbert Armstrong's you get the exact same scenario on how HWA claimed to not be a prophet yet deep down thought he was.

"A Crack in the Defense of EGW" (and HWA)

One of the many defenses that the SDA (COG) use for EGW (HWA) is that she (he) "never claimed to be a prophetess (prophet)". But what is a prophet? What are the marks of a prophet? First let's look at what EGW (HWA); the SDA Church (COG) said.

"One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White (HWA). As the Lord's messenger, her (his) writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested."—Fundamental Beliefs, 17

Ellen White (HWA) never assumed the title of prophetess, but she (he) did not object when others called her (him) by that title. (What follows is a quote from EGW, though HWA said the exact same thing) She explained, "Early in my youth I was asked several times, Are you a prophet? I have ever responded, I am the Lord's messenger. I know that many have called me a prophet, but I have made no claim to this title. . . . Why have I not claimed to be a prophet?—Because in these days many who boldly claim that they are prophets are a reproach to the cause of Christ; and because my work includes much more than the word 'prophet' signifies. . . . To claim to be a prophetess is something that I have never done. If others call me by that name, I have no controversy with them. But my work has covered so many lines that I can not call myself other than a messenger." - White, "A Messenger," Review and Herald, July 26, 1906, p. 8. The title "the Lord's messenger" was given by inspiration (ibid.).

And just what did her  'work' entail?

EGW - "Little heed is given to the Bible," she said, therefore "the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light." - White, "An Open Letter," Review and Herald, Jan. 20, 1903, p. 15 in White, Colporteur Ministry (Mountain View, CA: Pacific Press, 1953), p. 125.

EGW - "'I took the precious Bible and surrounded it with the several Testimonies for the Church, given for the people of God. . . . .You are not familiar with the Scriptures. If you had made God's word your study, with a desire to reach the Bible standard and attain to Christian perfection, you would not have needed the Testimonies. It is because you have neglected to acquaint yourselves with God's inspired Book that He has sought to reach you by simple, direct testimonies, calling your attention to the words of inspiration which you had neglected to obey, and urging you to fashion your lives in accordance with its pure and elevated teachings.'" - White, Testimonies, vol. 5, pp. 664, 665.


Prophet (Merriam-Webster's Dictionary) - a member of some religions (such as Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) who delivers messages that are believed to have come from God
1 : one who utters divinely inspired revelations: as
a) often capitalized : the writer of one of the prophetic books of the Bible
b) capitalized : one regarded by a group of followers as the final authoritative revealer of God's will (Muhammad, the Prophet of Allah)
2 : one gifted with more than ordinary spiritual and moral insight; especially  an inspired poet
3 : one who foretells future events : predictor
4 : an effective or leading spokesman for a cause, doctrine, or group
5 Christian Science
a : a spiritual seer
b : disappearance of material sense before the conscious facts of spiritual Truth
Prophet (Smith's Bible Dictionary)- The ordinary Hebrew word for prophet is nabi, derived from a verb signifying "to bubble forth" like a fountain; hence the word means one who announces or pours forth the declarations of God. The English word comes from the Greek prophetes (profetes), which signifies in classical Greek one who speaks for another, especially one who speaks for a god, and so interprets his will to man; hence its essential meaning is "an interpreter." The use of the word in its modern sense as "one who predicts" is post-classical. The larger sense of interpretation has not, however, been lost. In fact the English word ways been used in a closer sense. The different meanings or shades of meanings in which the abstract noun is employed in Scripture have been drawn out by Locke as follows: "Prophecy comprehends three things: prediction; singing by the dictate of the Spirit; and understanding and explaining the mysterious, hidden sense of Scripture by an immediate illumination and motion of the Spirit."

So, we can see by definition, a 'prophet' is a messenger who gives or speaks the message from God. EGW (HWA) did claim to be "the Lord's messenger", so in fact she (he) did claim to be a prophet, by deed, even if not by title. And as such she (he) must be pass the Biblical test of a prophet, and it is in this area that she (he) fails. By God's own word, she (he) is therefor NOT A PROPHET(messenger) SENT BY HIM!!!

14 comments:

Anonymous said...

Mr. Armstrong did not make any false prophecies. A prophet foretells things to come and everything Mr. Armstrong taught us is still yet to happen. He will be vindicated as God's servant and prophet. As God"s apostle it was not possible for him to make false propehcies. Yes there have been others who claimed to speak on his behalf who have said incorrect things, but even they are not false prophets. God will make manifest everything Mr. Armstrong restored to the church and world.

Anonymous said...

That may be the saddest thing I have read in 30 years.

old EXPCG hag said...

To anon December 4, 2014 at 12:28 AM

Where's my child's child support?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Anonymous said...

In the big picture, "prophets" and "special" gifted by the gods seers and Apostles are illusions. The specialness abides only in the mind of the one who thinks they are special. Motivations to be above average in religious understanding can range from sincere to mental illness. If I had to guess, the COG types border on mental illness rising to the top and commanding, literally, a following.

Men like Flurry, Thiel, Pack and all the bit players are badly mistaken about their specialness and incredible insights, which are mostly stupid and ill advised. Those who follow have their own need to be told what is what rather than be their self actualized and authentic selves trusting there is no need to put oneself under the beliefs of another who won't ever allow himself to be put under your beliefs.

These men are lone wolves and work for no one. They never did successfully and never could.

old EXPCG hag said...



Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mr. Armstrong did not make any false prophecies. A prophet foretells things to come and everything Mr. Armstrong taught us is still yet to happen. He will be vindicated as God's servant and prophet. As God"s apostle it was not possible for him to make false propehcies. Yes there have been others who claimed to speak on his behalf who have said incorrect things, but even they are not false prophets. God will make manifest everything Mr. Armstrong restored to the church and world.

December 4, 2014 at 12:28 AM

Here's another Anon posting on this site that were most likely FORBIDDEN TO POST...PCg? This is why thy post Anon (as if we won't figure it out). Maybe it's Gerald or Stephen...they're above the laws of GRF. They never get disfellowshipped...ha! What a bunch of stupidity!!

Sweetblood777 said...

The statement '...everything Mr. Armstrong taught us is still yet to happen...' is incorrect.

HWA made many prophetic announcements during the second world war that was supposed to happen, during the war. He failed in every way, so much so, that he had to 'get out of town' and move to California.

I would advise that you visit and research the real HWA before writing/speaking non-truths.

http://triumphpro.com/newsflash_016.htm

http://www.exitsupportnetwork.com/mike_ep/exam/exam.htm

Black Ops Mikey said...

Herbert Armstrong was a false prophet because he wrote "In Jesus' Name" some of the most nonsensical prognostications ever.

Those who claim that his prophecies are yet to happen and will be fulfilled seem to have missed his BIG prophecy on radio in 1943 that the United States and Britain would lose World War II and be taken over by the Germans.

Scripture declares false prophets are to be put to death.

Find a reason.

In Herbert Armstrong's case, if he had been caught in his incest in the State of Texas, he would have been executed.

You have to ask yourself how blasphemy became an entitlement among the hirelings of the Cult of the Cult of Herbert Armstrong Mafia?

And since when to flat out liars get a free pass?

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:28 AM wrote:

"Mr. Armstrong did not make any false prophecies. A prophet foretells things to come and everything Mr. Armstrong taught us is still yet to happen. He will be vindicated as God's servant and prophet. As God"s apostle it was not possible for him to make false propehcies. Yes there have been others who claimed to speak on his behalf who have said incorrect things, but even they are not false prophets. God will make manifest everything Mr. Armstrong restored to the church and world."

Where is the proof that Mr. Armstrong was an apostle or, for that matter, even a prophet?

The Apostle Paul told us this:

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;" Ephesians 4:11

And that word "some" should actually read "the," as in saying that God gave us "...The apostles; and the, prophets (sorry Bob Thiel!!!); and The evangelists (sorry Rod Meredith!!!)..." etc.

We're still learning from The Apostles, The Prophets, The real Evangelists...etc.!

Anon 12:28 AM, why not just refer to HWA as one of God's servants and leave it at that? There were both true things and false things spoken that came out of HWA's mouth!

And God will not "...make manifest everything Mr. Armstrong restored to the church and world," because God will not manifest false prophecies of anyone.

Perhaps, ANON 12:28 AM, you might want to consider who the "man of sin" in God's Church is???? Scriptures in 2 Thess 2 indicate that that "man of sin" has been in existence since way back in the days of The Apostles, but that its identity would one day be finally revealed. Might that be a possible source for false prophecies spoken by HWA? The "man of sin" has apparently been affecting God's Church without the Church realizing it...perhaps a good reason for its identity to remain hidden for a long time.

And false prophecies? How many are still looking for those "10 nations," those "10 kings," to come into existence in our day and age...today? HWA thought those 10 would exist in "our/his(?) day, but scriptures appear to suggest they won't exist until AFTER Satan is loosed from that bottomless pit...and time will tell!

John

Anonymous said...

Excellent post and comments! I have heard these exact same arguments during my many decades in the church. It's amazing how most of the splinters of Adventism believe these things.

Anonymous said...

"Hitler Did NOT Die!" - Yes he did.
"Jerusalem will remain in Gentile hands until CHRISTS RETURN! God has ordained it!" - then came the Six Day War.
"Within the next six to ten years of YOUR LIFE!"... almost thirty years since he died.

I know the splinters like to say these things, but you really should look up more of what the man actually said instead of buying the excuses.

Anonymous said...

Actually, Old Hog Jowls is going to be punished, not vindicated. Living with the garbage he taught is its own punishment.

I know some people who have lived over 50 years with the tribulation hanging over their heads, wondering if they would "qualify" for the place of safety. The funny thing is, the tribulation was supposedly only going to last 3-1/2 years. 3-1/2 vs 50 that could have been lived without religious oppression? Quite honestly, those of us who were raised under the church's child rearing principles already suffered a tribulation all our own. I can't imagine anything "the Germans" could do to us as possibly being more painful than that was, and it lasted for four times the supposed length of the trib.

Too bad that when the church told us to count the cost we couldn't do an accurate analysis.

Anonymous said...

Anon 7:19 PM wrote: "...The funny thing is, the tribulation was supposedly only going to last 3-1/2 years. 3-1/2 vs 50 that could have been lived without religious oppression? Quite honestly, those of us who were raised under the church's child rearing principles already suffered a tribulation all our own. I can't imagine anything "the Germans" could do to us as possibly being more painful than that was, and it lasted for four times the supposed length of the trib..."

Anon 7:19PM, perhaps you idea of the tribulation is much more in line with what Jesus Christ had in mind, for He told us this:

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33

I suspect the tribulation has been mankind's (for all inhabitants of this world) lot in life ever since the day Satan entered the Garden of Eden.

XCog's focus on 3 1/2 years has been one of their unfulfilled "dreams" to date.

The Apostle Paul also told us this:

"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope," Romans 8:20

It was MADE SUBJECT to vanity. It might as well say the creation was made subject to tribulation...

John

Vaughn said...

For Anonymous December 4, 2014 at 12:28 AM: I offer you two examples of Herbert (the W. stand for nothing) Armstrong uttering prophecies where time is a definite and indisputable factor. Specifically, in the 1967 edition of United States and Britain in Prophecy, on p. 184, paragraph 3, he states: "That condition is coming! And I do not mean in 400 years, nor in 40 years, but in the very next four or five!" Then on page 212, paragraph 3 he states: "By God's direction and authority, I have laid the truth before you!"

"...Nor in 40 years, but..." It has been 47 years since he wrote that: 5 plus 1967 equals 1972.

Also, in the 1956 edition of 1975 in Prophecy, on p. 20, paragraph 6, Herbert (the W. stand for nothing) Armstrong writes: "Yes, millions of lukewarm inactive professing Christians will suffer martyrdom, and that before the anticipated push-button year of 1975 dawns upon us!" Then on p. 31, paragraph 10, he writes: "your fate, and I say to you on authority of God Almighty that it is absolutely sure!"

Think about this, no really, think about and consider this. Don't waste any more of your life.

Anonymous said...

Ya know what's funny, Vaughan? Throughout the history of Christianity, it is the strong, strong, on fire for Jesus Christians who have been martyrred, and the gospel and way of life have been spread in many cases on the strength of their deaths. So, Herbert "nothing" Armstrong even got that seemingly indelible precept ass-backwards and totally wrong! He was one helluva joke as a spiritual guide!