Tuesday, November 10, 2015

Living Church of God Council of Elders Meeting: Will They Repent?



Several people have contacted me from the Living Church of God referencing the Council of Elders meeting that will be held this week.  Many feel that this blog will once again be the topic of conversation.  We have struck a raw nerve with LCG and Rod Meredith.  Will any of these men actually take into consideration the desires of LCG members about how they are being mistreated? 

How can they sit there knowing how vocal and hurt LCG members have been in expressing their pain here on this blog?  The mere fact that LCG members have to turn to a blog run by a "dissident" to have their voices heard shows how tired members are of the way they are being treated. They know they have no voice in their own church...a church that was supposed to be the epitome of love and care.

Many of the men sitting on the Council KNOW that things are wrong yet do not have the wherewithal to speak up and say the church has been wrong.

Will these men take into consideration these items that LCG members have expressed concern over?

  • Why is the ministry of the church so soulless? 
  • Why is kindness, justice, mercy, and humility completely lacking in those who think they are ministers of God?
  • RCM never was known for being kind, humble, just or merciful.  This is truly a sad commentary when his own members know this to be a fact!
  • ...disregard for the people began much earlier really with ministry lording over the people, using them for free labor , taking the chief seats at the feasts and the choice accommodations.
  •  The "helpers of your joy" were few and far between
  • I was "used" (speaking, leadership roles, etc.) by the ministry, as long as I toed their line, which eventually became impossible to someone who could see the hypocrisy and double standard that was in place. Sadly, the mirror never seemed to reflect the double standard by which they operated, allowing so many of them to take on the naked emperor's role, all the while never seeing their own naked and blatantly wrong condition.
  • ...where has the mercy, humility, etc. been all these years, from our Korah like leadership?  
  • Can you show us, from the Bible, how Matthew 18 does not apply to the ministry?
One LCG member wrote what the Living Church of God should be doing for its members, though the men doing this are few and far to be seen: 
The true sign of the church is the love they have one for another, bearing one anothers burdens, visiting, aiding, helping.

We have always had some of those people amongst us, thank God for them!

Will these men AND Rod Meredith publicly repent in front of their congregations, and church as a whole, for the mistreatment and abuse they are piling on members?

Will they have any accountability to anyone in the church?

Do they even care about true reconciliation?

Does power and law trump grace?

66 comments:

Anonymous said...

Why would rod repent?
He has been a bully all his life, and so is his ministers. He will say "There are some members who are divisional and rebellious and they should repent.
Maniacs are always right and it is always somebody else's fault.
To bad most dumb lcg sheep don't check this site out.
Rod like GOD never changes, same yesterday and tomorrow.

Anonymous said...

They elders all follow a man. They love the best seats and want to be looked up as a important person.
So in order not to loose that position, they believe they do no evil.
Most likely the conference will be in how to bring in more money. Because, since last May all letters have been to send it in early ect.
Yes rod: repent because the kingdom is at hand.

Anonymous said...

I'm not sure if your questions were rhetorical. The obvious answer is no to all of the above.

The men at this level of power in LCG are so high on power and control that they have completely lost the humility required for personal insight.

I can almost guarantee that they see the problem as being with the people, not themselves.

The will double down. That is Meredith's method of operation. Has anyone EVER seen him concede? If it hasn't happened in 85 years, it ain't gonna happen now.

They are masters at propaganda. They are sitting around their executive table right now trying to figure out how to "spin" the bad PR so they can spoon feed their minions whatever version of reality they decide upon.

Meredith is predictable if anything.

Anonymous said...

LCG's COE is a total joke.

LCG is a DICTATORSHIP. The counsel is just for show. They have no power or influence.

Meredith makes whatever decisions he's going to make before the counsel even arrives and then surrounds himself with "yes men" who will agree with whatever he says because they know that sucking up to Meredith is the path to gaining even more power and position.

Anyone who disagrees with Emperor Meredith will be taken off the counsel. It has happened many, many times in the past.

Ever single man on LCG's COE has seen what happens to those who oppose Meredith so they just sit there in silence, bobbing their heads in agreement, even though they know things are wrong.

Ultimately, it will be the total and complete lack of courage in these men to stand up to Meredith for what is right that will allow LCG to crumble further.

Anonymous said...

No2HWA I have another question for you to add to your list for the LCG COE:

Can you show us, from the Bible, how Matthew 18 does not apply to the ministry?

I've had 2 LCG ministers tell me this but I can't seem to find supporting scripture. Maybe they can enlighten us.

Anonymous said...

"Do they even care about true reconciliation?"

That depends on how large the dollar amount on the "reconciliation" check is.

Anonymous said...

I'm surprised Rod McNair isn't in this picture. He seems to be the Chief of Gestapo.

DennisCDiehl said...

Correction: "Back in 1971 the Dean of tudents called my class......'the creame of the crud" "Will these men AND Rod Meredith publicly repent in front of their congregations, and church as a whole, for the mistreatment and abuse they are piling on members?"

No they won't. They can't as it will diminish their imaginary power and control as well as the concept of ministerial authority. What NT Apostle or Wanna be ever apologized for being dead wrong about casting folk to satan for disagreeing with them? None. Which ones apologized for decades of motivation by "time is short" when it wasn't? None. Who got to be changed in eye twikles? None. Which ones apologized for breaking up relationships because time was short? None. Who apologized to young couples they told to stay single or that the only reason they should marry was to avoid fornication? Which sold the brethren an "send it in" and share it all with others because time was short? None.

Back in 1971 the Dean of Students called my class, at a Jr. Class meeting, "the cream of the crud." He got challenged on that on the spot and then again, and again until the "tired of this cream of the crude" bit stopped and people started respecting each others differences and skills. You know...love each other. It spread at Forum and all the frustration of the ages on the campus erupted in what the leadership called a "love in". They crushed it noting that "all the leading evangelists , including the Armstrongs were not on the campus when Satan struck..."

All it was , was the beginnings of the next generation of church members growing tired of the labels, authority and control with heavy emphasis on majoring in the minors. But like the STP, it was crushed and the beat went on....

DennisCDiehl said...

Correction: "Which apologized for selliing the brethren an "send it in" and share it all with others because time was short? None."

We'll note that once the more wealthy and critical thinking members came into the early NT church, the "had all things in common" thing fell into oblivion real quick. The church leaders did yield to reality and the "hell no, I'm not giving all my stuff and resources away" of the better off to keep the better off in the group I'm sure. Sharing all things in common is something leaders want when they attract their early less wealthy and more desperate early members. I think it means "please share all things you have in common with ME" I could be wrong...

NJ member said...

No voice is exactly right.
Even if you have valid things to say, they will not listen and in fact, will throw you out if you suggest or say anything.
In the end it is about control and not about Christianity or love. It has become, or always was a money making operation.
HWA was wrong about passover as you simply cannot kill the sacrifice while leaven in still in Israel. This makes the death of Christ on time and at the right time. But HWA insisted the non-Jewish Samaritans were correct and said Christ should have died at the end of the 13th, beginning of the 14th. His knowledge so flawed that he did not know that the last sacrifice of the day "Maariv" is ONLY for burning the fat of the days previous sacrifices (its in the Bible for Pete sake). So the church kept the memorial of the death as Paul said but its not the passover! But then again the CoG does not believe the bible really.
They do not 'keep' any of the feasts. Where is the lulav, esrog and sukkah for each family? No, Christ fulfilled these things and while it is fine to observe and recognize them HWA had you depend them for your salvation.
They don't 'keep' the Sabbath. You cannot carry a burden on the sabbath(Jeremiah). They carry, travel, eat out. They refuse that Christ fulfilled these things.
Out of one side of his mouth he said the Jews had the calendar then proceeded to say they were wrong about Passover and Pentecost! confusion!
But see, scholarship and learning are frowned upon. And in the end you have to be different to make yourself stand out and gather in the money.
If you mention this you'd be out on your ear no matter that the bible backs it all up.
Unless you are a suck up and a yes man you are doomed to pay and pray and sit in the back of the bus. It should never be that way.
Ritenbaugh proved we ARE born again at baptism. But, that will go no where.
HWA is the center of worship in the churches of God.
Don't think so? In a debate on the famine of hearing the word, a forum said that it referred to the words of HWA disappearing on youtube!!!
I thought the Word was Christ and the bible. No, folks, its HWA!!
It is a idolatrous club and why am I still hanging around? I am not sure.

Anonymous said...

"The mere fact that LCG members have to turn to a blog run by a "dissident" to have their voices heard shows how tired members are of the way they are being treated. They know they have no voice in their own church...a church that was supposed to be the epitome of love and care."

Oh baby you said a mouthful here. It is now the only forum members have to be heard and address the blatant abuses going on.

Anonymous said...

Anon 6:24am wrote, "Ultimately, it will be the total and complete lack of courage in these men to stand up to Meredith for what is right that will allow LCG to crumble further."

I assert that there are at least one or two men on the counsel who intentionally allow Meredith to make wrong decisions because they want to take over when the split happens. Allowing Meredith to indulge himself if it makes him look like he's losing it and then talking about it behind his back is a great strategy for setting yourself up as the kinder, gentler future leader.

Byker Bob said...

Prima facie evidence of their mindset is the fact that there are no people of color in the group picture of their version of the SS.

People in the Armstrong movement were used to a certain level of abuse by, and the co-opting of their lives by the ministry. Unfortunately, this has degenerated even further in today's splinters, almost as if there is a contest to determine who can be the worst. Member retention is certainly not the rock on which their membership building program is anchored. It's all part of the Gamaliel Syndrome.

BB

Anonymous said...

The Board of Elders or Board of Trustees were always hand-picked yes men. I remember the homes that some lived in on Waverly Drive in Pasadena. McNair's was next to Meredith's. GTA's was on the corner. David John Hill was down the street. Nice offices, titles, fawning members, beautiful homes, flights in corporate jets. And of course, many had high hopes of being the next "apostle." What else could these people do if they left the church? Where could they live so well? HWA put them in golden handcuffs. Many of these emasculated men had no other career options. Can you even imagine RCM taking orders from a Wal Mart store manager or him sitting through a management training program? Does anyone know what it must have been like for GTA to have HWA as his father? Even as Executive VP he had no real decision making power. He had his celebrity, his radio and TV program. But he didn't have any real power or influence. The one with real power over the purse was of course Stanley Rader. He controlled the money and had HWA's ear.

Anonymous said...

When you consider all the things that the christian establishment has declared heretical and demonized down through the ages, gnosticism, magic, vulgar translations, the Waldenses, the Reformation, right down to new age spirituality today, there is one thing that all these, at least originally, had in common: the idea that you did not need a middle-man to reach god, that the mysteries of the kingdom are open and accessible to all. And it's easy to see why. If you don't need the help of a clergy, which they provide for a substantial fee, then they're out of business. I say, "at least originally," because although Martin Luther preached "justification as entirely the work of God," which left little room for the necessity of a clergy, it did not take the Protestants much time to become similarly corrupt like their orthodox counterparts in this regard, among others.

This is what Herbert Armstrong did and those such as Rod Meredith who claim his mantle for their own also do. They teach that they alone are capable of providing the indispensible priestly service of ensuring your soul gets saved. It's a message of fear intended to make sure their coffers are continually being refilled. ACOGs, being apocalyptic cults and therefore worse than your average protestant church, preach that if you don't take out a monthly subscription with them for all your spiritual needs, you will pay the price bodily when in 3-5 years they will be saved from the tribulation, meanwhile you will meet a horrific end. In effect

Even though established churches are losing their power as people come to either disbelieve entirely or disbelieve that clergys can do much for anyone one way or another, they still demonize anyone who presumes the supernatural can be found without their assistance. The differences between armstrongism and catholicism are superficial.

Will men whose paychecks depend upon the promulgation of the idea that they're the ones with the red telephone to god repent? When hell freezes over I suppose.

Anonymous said...

That picture of LCG's Counsel of Elders is out of date. I think some in LCG are trying to cover up the fact that Meredith has put his son in law on the Counsel, along with another minister who is a proven liar but who is Meredith's favorite because of how he always covers for a Meredith son who is into serious alcoholism and sexual misconduct. Those two are big cheerleaders for Meredith and can insure the rest of the Counsel will never be able to remove him for his misconduct or incompetence.

Anonymous said...

The men are vultures waiting for their dinner to assume room temperature.

Anonymous said...

The LCG Pastors will continue doing what they are doing because they believe they are in training to become God and that at the resurrection they are going to be God, even though God Himself says this is not true (Isaiah 43:10-11). They are thinking and behaving like Satan (Isaiah 14:12-14)

Black Ops Mikey said...

Lucifer Cult of Grim.

Allen Dexter said...

"Many of these emasculated men had no other career options. Can you even imagine RCM taking orders from a Wal Mart store manager or him sitting through a management training program?"

When my department was cut out by GTA,I faced that very situation. Going to work for a carpet company eventually afforded me my salvation when I took the step of going into business for myself after trying insurance for a while. None of these guys want to dirty their hands with any real work like that, but it gave me self-respect and supported me rather well for many years. I wasn't too proud to do honest manual work. I think a lot of them are. I never lived an easy life living in any mansion, but I can hold my head high and be proud of how I made my living.

NJ member said...

Will they repent?
No. They see nothing wrong at all.

Does power and law trump grace?
Yes if you want to maintain control.

The church has never had a satisfactory answer for this without ignoring some scripture.
The cog has never really kept the sabbath or holy days as stipulated in the Old Testament really at all.
Yet, we have examples of men who tried to go outside the law to do their own thing their way who died. Witness to this is Uzzah and the sons of Eli who went outside doing things their own way.
You can't keep the feasts or sabbaths any way you wish, which, we do in the cog.
Where is the lulav and etrog, and sukkah? They are commanded for the FOT.
So the church does NOT keep these days really.
Why are we still trying to do atonement when Christ died once for all and entered the holy of holies as a high priest forever? No real explanation that satisfies given.
Christ did fulfill them and there is no satisfactory answer from the church on any of this.

Ralph said...

on November 12, 2015 at 9:22 AM
NJ member said...

"Where is the lulav and etrog, and sukkah?"

No disrespect intended, do you construct a sukkah for the feast and how do you determine the first day? Also, what are your thoughts on "the eighth day".

In addition to that would you amplify your 'NJ' identity?

cheers
ralph.f

Ralph said...

in addition to that
on November 12, 2015 at 9:22 AM
NJ member also said...

"Why are we still trying to do atonement when Christ died once for all and entered the holy of holies as a high priest forever?"

Once again, no disrespect intended, do you voice this opinion because of 'Gill's' commentary viz:
"it shall be a statute for ever, throughout your generations, in all your dwellings; unto the coming of the Messiah, who, by the atoning sacrifice of himself, would answer to this law, and put an end to it."
even though Gill repeats "it shall be a statute forever"
Scripture does not state "unto the coming of the Messiah" which surely is just an opinion of the commentator.

Ralph said...

Perhaps a little clarification with some rephrasing of Gill's commentary. viz;

""it shall be an ongoing statute, throughout your generations, in all your dwellings; unto the coming of the Messiah, who, by the atoning sacrifice of himself, would answer to this law, and put an end to it."

(but that's not what scripture says!)

cheers
ralph.f

Anonymous said...

I read that if you look into the meaning of the Hebrew word "olam", which is translated "forever" does not mean what it does in our English language. It can mean "in the far distance" or "long duration." It can be used to mean "up to the end of a man's life" or only "an age" or "dispensation."

Ralph said...

on November 13, 2015 at 4:13 AM
Anonymous said..

"I read that if you look into the meaning of the Hebrew word "olam", which is translated "forever" does not mean what it does in our English language."

Well,perhaps not always. Strong's concordance:-
"H5769

עֹלָם עוֹלָם
‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal,(for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.
Total KJV occurrences: 438"

does give a few other meanings. The term needs to be set in context. Do you suppose that the 'perfection' of Yehovah would not last for eternity?
eg. "Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple."
A little guidance from the Holy Spirit does help a lot.

cheers
ralph.f

Ralph said...

in addition to that,
do you grasp the truth of the New Covenant?

cheers
ralph.f

Byker Bob said...

Most of the doctrinal positions of Armstrongism are supported by scriptures and meanings of ancient Greek and Hebrew which oppose one another. NC/OC is one example of this. The current condition of the dead is another. There is no clear and definitive proof for either possible position, HWA's authoritative flapping angry jowls notwithstanding. Many folks simply pick one side and shut the other out. The thing is, HWA always chose the minority position, or the most inconvenient one, just to keep his people actively engaged in their own continual brainwashing.

So much for a light burden! He would have been one of the chief counsellors to King Rehoboam in that era.

BB

Anonymous said...

Ralph.
1 Kings 8:13 I have surely built thee a house to dwell in, a settled place for thee to abide in for ever [olam]. It says “for ever” – but again, as we all know, that temple was destroyed, and so was even the next one. So, olam did not mean “for ever”.
Exodus 27:20 And you shall command the children of Israel that they bring you pure oil of beaten olives for the light, to cause the flame of the lamp to ascend continually. 21 In the tent of meeting, outside the veil which is before the Testimony, Aaron and his sons shall arrange it from evening until morning before Jehovah. It shall be a perpetual [olam] statute to their generations on behalf of the children of Israel.
Even here, many bible-versions render olam as “for ever”, “permanent”, “everlasting” or similar. But, as we all know, those rituals came to their end almost 2000 years ago.

Again, olam was an expression that referred to something of long duration, but it did not mean “for ever” or “everlasting”. It is the same in regard to such passages as Leviticus 7:34, 16:33–34 and 24:7–8 and Deuteronomy 12:27–28 which talk about the Old Covenant and its rituals and where the word olam is mentioned in the context. Those things came to their end a long time ago.

Anonymous said...

We know what the Bible says, but what does it mean and what did it mean to the people who heard it? Jesus said, "turn the other cheek." Did this mean we are to be pacifists? I don't think so. To insult someone in that time and culture meant to touch the back of your hand to someone's cheek. Jesus MEANT, "ignore insults or stupid comments." Having a "good eye" meant being generous. But, who are we to read literature from Jewish sources when we can learn all that we need to learn from a high school drop out who claimed to have learned all that he needed in a few months of study in the local library.

Ralph said...

on November 13, 2015 at 3:14 PM
Byker Bob said.

"Most of the doctrinal positions of Armstrongism are supported by scriptures and meanings of ancient Greek and Hebrew which oppose one another. NC/OC is one example of this."

Forget about Armstrongism, I have. I'm not at all sure of what you mean by "...ancient Greek and Hebrew which oppose one another. NC/OC is one example of this"

Surely the 'prophecy' of the New Covenant could not be made more plain than what it is in the OT viz. "Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."

repeated in the NT viz.

"Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"

Again, how could it be put more plainly, Jehovah will instill His Holy character into the hearts and minds of those that desire it so that they will become, in character and mindset, the same as He is. Desire being proven by wholeheartedly keeping His commandments in the first place.
As Yeshua said:-
"Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

cheers
ralph.f

NJ member said...

Ralph, those days are fulfilled in Christ and they cannot be kept as they were in the days of Christ and before.
The law and ordinances were still in full force while Christ was alive only being fulfilled upon his death.
So Paul said, there being a change in the priesthood there is also a change in the law.

The law is perfect but no longer in stone but in our hearts. The holy spirit guides us to love God and our fellow man such that we keep the commandments of Christ to love God and our neighbor.

Ralph said...

on November 13, 2015 at 10:12 PM
NJ member said..

"So Paul said, there being a change in the priesthood there is also a change in the law."

Our brethren from Judah claim, I think, 613 commandments, or laws. See "HERE" So, to which law do you think Paul was referring?
also

"....those days are fulfilled in Christ and they cannot be kept as they were in the days of Christ and before."

Could you explain why they cannot be kept? I don't seem to have any problems with them.
and

".... being fulfilled upon his death."

from Merriam-Webster:-
"Main Entry:ful£fill
Variant:or ful£fil \f*(l)-*fil also f*(l)-\
Function:transitive verb
Inflected Form:ful£filled ; ful£fill£ing
Etymology:Middle English fulfillen, from Old English fullfyllan, from full + fyllan to fill
Date:before 12th century

1 archaic : to make full : FILL *her subtle, warm, and golden breath T fulfills him with beatitude— Alfred Tennyson*
2 a : to put into effect : EXECUTE b : to meet the requirements of (a business order) c : to bring to an end d : to measure up to : SATISFY
3 a : to convert into reality b : to develop the full potentialities of"

With all due respect, from where comes the idea that 'the law' was "brought to an end" when we find the Apostles 'keeping the law' well after the death of Yeshua? eg.
"Act 18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem:"

In addition to that we can find:-
"1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

Finally:-
"The holy spirit guides us to love God and our fellow man such that we keep the commandments of Christ to love God and our neighbor."

Don't we express that love toward Yehovah by consciously exercising the first four of the Ten Commandments and love of our fellow man by consciously exercising the last six?

cheers
ralph.f

Anonymous said...

Ralph wrote:

"do you grasp the truth of the New Covenant?"

My only response is laughter.

Ralph can quote the bible till he's blue in the face to exhort us and extoll bible literalism, and it's all a waste of his time, because the bible is a fraud, christianity is a hoax, and reading the bible literally is a fool's errand.

The bible is riddled with contradictions. For example, Bible-Paul contradicts Bible-Jesus at least 28 times! Bible-Paul even contradicts himself.

My only question to Ralph would be, how come this supposed "truth of the New Covenant" is so internally contradictory? Have you never heard of the law of non-contradiction?

I think Ralph has much the same attitude as James Malm. James Malm also thinks he has some kind of special insight into how to interpret the bible, and he thinks it's his own, fooling himself into thinking that just because he no longer puts HWA on a pedestal, then just because of that 95% of his ideas don't come from HWA anymore.

If you want to convert people to your own, unique, personally tweaked version of Armstrongism, why don't you set up your own blog from which you can throw your pearls before swine? Then you can gather your own dozen disciples, just like James Malm.

Ralph said...

Hi Anonymous
of November 14, 2015 at 9:09 AM

I would say that you have just as much right as anyone else to change your mind when you deem it to be appropriate.

cheers
ralph.f

Trust In Jehovah
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,
but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
against spiritual wickedness in high places.” [Eph:6.12]

Anonymous said...


You wrote, "The bible is riddled with contradictions. For example, Bible-Paul contradicts Bible-Jesus at least 28 times! Bible-Paul even contradicts himself." May I suggest that what was required of Jesus and by Jesus is not the same that is required in a new dispensation for the Gentiles. May I suggest Norman Geisler's three books, WHEN CRITICS ASK (GOOD FOR THE "CONTRADICTION"); WHEN SKEPTICS ASK AND FOR THOSE WHO ARE IN A CULT, WHEN CULTISTS ASK.

Ed said...

I recommend the latest video on the Painful Truth web site. It is an old episode of the twilight zone.

NJ member said...

You don't keep them as per Torah commandments Ralph, you keep them as you decide to.
You carry a burden on the sabbath? Death penalty(Jeremiah). You leave your place(neighborhood) on Shabbat? Uh oh.. violation.
You are sure the meat you eat is shechted correctly? It was not.
If not, you have a problem.
Do you have a lulav, esrog and proper sukkah? Do you know how to use the lulav and esrog? Do you sacrifice animals on holydays? Do you kill a cow if a murder is committed in your town? Do you use a mikvah? Does your wife? Were you circumcised at 8 days?
Did your wife remain home for the stipulated time after birth? Did you pay the pidyon haben (redemption money) at each birth of a first born?
Is your milk chalav yisrael?

You are eager to be under bondage to the stipulations of the law and that causes a rejection of the grace of Christ.
We keep the 10 commandments easily because we love God and our fellow man because of the holy spirit within, not because they are on stone and attached to harsh penalties if we do not.
There is a big difference.
Any parent wants a child who obeys out of love rather than fear of punishment.

Ralph said...

on November 14, 2015 at 9:26 PM
NJ member said.......much.

And I would like to zero in on this part:-
"We keep the 10 commandments easily because we love God and our fellow man...."

asking:-
From a practical viewpoint, how do you accomplish these things ie."..we love God and our fellow man...?

also:
"Any parent wants a child who obeys out of love rather than fear of punishment."

and I couldn't agree more, as it is written:
"1Jn_5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

ps. you make mention of numerous 'infractions' but don't provide scriptural references. It would help a lot if you did, my memory banks are not as sharp as they used to be.

cheers
ralph.f

Ralph said...

pps. In retrospect I don't recall ever making mention of Halachic law! My references have always been with regard to the Decalogue.

cheers
ralph.f

Ralph said...

back again!
on November 14, 2015 at 9:26 PM
NJ member said.

"You are sure the meat you eat is shechted correctly? It was not.
If not, you have a problem."
then:
"You are eager to be under bondage to the stipulations of the law and that causes a rejection of the grace of Christ."

I don't think so for:
2Ti_3:16 says "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

and I read in:
"1Co 10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles [ie.meat market], that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:
1Co 10:26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof."

cheers
ralph.f

Ralph said...

on November 14, 2015 at 9:26 PM
NJ member also said...

"You carry a burden on the sabbath?" Answer NO, So NO Death penalty(Jeremiah). You leave your place(neighborhood) on Shabbat? Answer NO. So NO "Uh oh.. violation."

How about you? Do you carry a burden, or work at your usual weekly occupation, on the sabbath? Do you leave your place(neighborhood) on Shabbat?

"Did you pay the pidyon haben (redemption money) at each birth of a first born?"
Apart from the fact that I've only ever had one firstborn:-
from Judaism 101:-
"Pidyon Ha-Ben (peed-YOHN hah-BEHN)
Lit. redemption of the son. A ritual redeeming the firstborn son from his obligation to serve in the Temple." Q. What Temple?
"Firstborn
If a woman's first child is a male child born by natural childbirth, then the child must be redeemed from a kohein (priest) by a procedure called Pidyon Ha-Ben."

I am aware that the Levitical priesthood came to an end with the sacrifice of Yeshua and I just knew you were poking fun at me. LOL

cheers
ralph.f

ps. can you guide me to a location for your description "shechted"?

Anonymous said...

That was NJ's point Ralph. Sheesh.

Ralph said...

on November 15, 2015 at 5:56 PM
Anonymous said...

"That was NJ's point Ralph. Sheesh."

I guess it must be my "thick filters" as someone once described me as having, BUT,
what was NJ's point? Poking fun because I don't follow Halakha (Jewish and not Christian) laws?

cheers
ralph.f

Ralph said...

On November 14, 2015 at 9:26 PM
NJ member also said...

"You don't keep them as per Torah commandments......"

After having done some research into your accusations I'm sure you would be more accurate to say: "You don't keep them as per RABBINICAL commandments."
And NO, I do not, for several reasons:-
1. I cannot find a number of your references in scripture. I have already asked for
them.
2. Let me quote from Nehemia Gordon's book "The Hebrew Yeshua vs The Greek Jesus".
p14. "Iniquity #2 Authority of the Rabbis.
The second fundamental principle of Rabbinic/Pharasaic Judfaism is the belief
that the Rabbis have absolute authority to interpret scripture.
p16. My (N. Gordon) rabbi's conclusion from all this was that the
interpretation of the Rabbis even superseded a direct decree from God
Himself
"
3. "Mat_15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the
commandments of men." and
"Mar_7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the
commandments of men."

Of the Pharisees and their descendant Rabbis, Yeshua said:-
"Mar_7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."

The overall tone of your comment seems to suggest the I accept for doctrine the 'commandments of men', the rabbis.
NJ. with all due respect I think you would well benefit from some serious personal counseling.

cheers
ralph.f

Anonymous said...

"Poking fun because I don't follow Halakha (Jewish and not Christian) laws?"

I thought Halakha is considered to be Jewish religious law.
(Somewhat like Sharia is considered to be Islamic religious law and Canon law is considered to be Christian religious law.)

Anonymous said...

Meredith's son is into serious alcoholism and sexual misconduct?

DING!DING!DING!

Looks we HAVE A WINNER with the qualifications to be the next Grand Poobah when daddy assumes room temp shortly.

Anonymous said...

Hi Ralph,

After reading some of your posts shotgunning your 'proofs' at us, and also after reading posts by conspiracy theorist 'nik" who was also shotgunning 'proofs at us- I feel compelled to ask you two questions...

1) Are you also the conspiracy theorist "nik"?, ... and

2) Are you that abrasive 'know-it-all dude' who used to post on the Painful Truth blog who-
* claimed to have been in the armed services, gotten court martialed (or something like that) but had arguments so perfect that they had to exonerate you
*wrote many posts on the Painful Truth blog, saying, "you can't get there from here" (or something like that)
*boasting that your position is 'golden' in many ways- even your investments in gold
?

Just wondering, my friend.
I'm hoping not, although I do wonder since I've noticed an infusion of posts on this blog that seem to be misfit posts.

Cheers,
J. "Froggy" Frank

Anonymous said...

It's pointless to argue with apologists like Ralph.

He'll never perceive the false assumptions he's working with not to be "facts," the lies he holds to be "truth" as anything other, the circular reasoning and special pleading he is forced to use to defend it, the difference between "possible" and "probable," and several other first-order errors.

Since it's a sin to harbor doubts or have questions, all this stuff is strictly off-limits. He'll only ever think the thoughts he was programmed to think decades ago.

Ralph said...

From November 16, 2015 at 7:41 AM
Hi "Froggy"

You ask:
1) Are you also the conspiracy theorist "nik"....Ans. No.
and:
2) Are you that abrasive 'know-it-all dude' who used to post on the Painful Truth blog who-
* claimed to have been in the armed services, gotten court martialed (or something like that) but had arguments so perfect that they had to exonerate you
*wrote many posts on the Painful Truth blog, saying, "you can't get there from here" (or something like that)
*boasting that your position is 'golden' in many ways- even your investments in gold....Ans. No.

The only other site that I can remember my posting comments was a "splinter" church site that was located in (I think) Irving Texas. My comments then were in much the same vein as they are here. As I recall we had heaps of debates concerning the Passover and "The Lord's Supper". But that was years ago and the blog site was eventually taken down.

cheers
ralph.f

Ralph said...

on November 16, 2015 at 8:36 AM
Anonymous said..

"He'll only ever think the thoughts he was programmed to think decades ago."

These days I'm more likely to heed the promptings of the Holy Spirit and, as I've mentioned previously, you have just as much right as anyone else to change your mind at the time you deem to be appropriate!

cheers
ralph.f

Ralph said...

on November 16, 2015 at 4:51 AM
Anonymous said...

"I thought Halakha is considered to be Jewish religious law."

I believe it to be so and not necessarily applicable to Christian living.

cheers
ralph.f

NJ member said...

Halacha is the collective body of law from Torah and includes the legal precedents arrived at by Moses and the body of judges his father in law told him to assemble.
For instance, Deut, 12 tells you to slaughter as God instructed. Those instructions as well as the law of clean/unclean are halacha.
(imagine if you will we have a law "thou shalt now speed". We now must define what is speeding, when, what are the conditions in which one may or may not, etc. Then gradations of penalties for speeding. One for joy riding, one for taking your injured pal to the hosptial)
Rabbinical commandments have nothing whatever to do with halacha which predates the rabbinical system which began after the end of the levitical priesthood as a way to keep the community together in the diaspora.
Halacha is torah law and its interpretation in courts of law established by Moses and the Great assembly long before Christ's time.

Rabbis date after the fall of Jerusalem and have NO authority over halacha.

Byker Bob said...

1). So many people have taken on the "anonymous" moniker that unless they have some literary "shibboleths", it is darned near impossible to track just who is saying what, and to respond.

2). We learned a long time ago that there are people who have gone independent from the ACOG splinters as a matter of conscience, due to ministerial abuse of authority and tithes, to say nothing of stupid titles and egomaniacal prophecies. However, the independents, in their relative freedom, remain just as strong-willed in their continued beliefs in the basic package of Armstrong doctrines as actual splinter members. I once walked away from a forum where these independents became the majority, and began correcting all of our free speech with their Armstrongism. There was no longer any point in regular discourse, because to get to the discourse, you had to first rebuttal all of the HWAcaca they threw at you. The lesson is, once several of us walked away, the pro-HWA doctrine people found no further pleasure in posting, and also walked away. So, you almost need at least a small amount of the HWAcaca to keep a dissident forum or block healthy and active.

BB

Anonymous said...

Personal thoughts on Christian Faith
As I review some of the things going on in the world today my thoughts are turn to the teachings attribute to Jesus Christ in the book used to support what is defined as Christianity. One thing that appears to have changed is the faith and confidence in this book we call the Bible and how it applies to the world today.

Not too far back in history the Bible was the standard for the morality of this human existence at least for those who viewed human life as greater than all other living creatures. What I see today is a rejection of the biblical revelation of a Superior Being that is the cause for our human existence.

This is not new, but since it can not be denied that human life has characteristics that are superior to animal life it has created controversy regarding human life. This controversy is focused on a human life being compatible with the standard worldview of today. While the purpose is not to destroy a belief in God, the natural desire of being accepted by other beings (God or persons) contributes rejecting interpersonal relationships that will cause God to meet with them.
AB

Ralph said...

on November 16, 2015 at 1:05 PM
NJ member said...

"Halacha is the collective body of law from Torah and includes the legal precedents arrived at by Moses and the body of judges his father in law told him to assemble."

In my walk of faith I am willing to learn from any man so perhaps I stand corrected although "Judaism 101" tells me this:-
"Halakhah (huh-LUHKH-khuh)
Lit. the path that one walks. Jewish law. The complete body of rules and practices that Jews are bound to follow, including biblical commandments<, commandments instituted by the rabbis, and binding customs."

In Mat_4:4 I also find this "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

So, can you direct me to scriptures that describe the method of killing clean animals for food consumption?

cheers
ralph.f

Anonymous said...

"Not too far back in history the Bible was the standard for the morality of this human existence at least for those who viewed human life as greater than all other living creatures."

Weird.

So, then, you deny the very existence of any other religious traditions besides the judeo-christian one? There's no such thing as muslims, hindus, or buddhists, and you think there's only ~2.1 billion people, instead of 7 billion?

Weird.

Ralph said...

on November 16, 2015 at 8:36 AM
Anonymous said...

"It's pointless to argue with apologists like Ralph."

and, like Professor Julius Sumner Miller, I would ask: "Why is it so?"
Don't you think it is possible that we could learn something from one another with some lively discussion?
I believe I can learn something from every man.

cheers
ralph.f

Anonymous said...

"'It's pointless to argue with apologists like Ralph.' and, like Professor Julius Sumner Miller, I would ask: 'Why is it so?' Don't you think it is possible that we could learn something from one another with some lively discussion? I believe I can learn something from every man."

Just one more of your beliefs that isn't true.

I've been on both sides. I was raised in the fold, and now I'm out, on the other side. And I left because I outgrew it. I realized how intellectually claustrophobic that fold is, how stultifying, how backward, how biased, and how low your academic standards have to be to keep that bias in place, convincing yourself that things like the bible, a trove of hearsay without a shred of evidence to support it's claims, claims which are as extraordinary as any claims ever were, are true.

No, Ralph, you believe you can learn things, but that's just one more thing you're demonstrably wrong about. And you'll read this, and you won't learn anything from it either. Your academic standards won't rise. You won't notice your biases and how they can't be defended without fallacious reasoning. You won't realize how claustrophobic the intellectual coffin your worldview is, and how it prevents you from growing. What you think is learning is just putting more nails into that coffin.

No, Ralph, I don't think it's possible. Not even remotely. With your low standards, you'll always be able to find a way to gerrymander around learning anything new or letting your cherished falsehoods be damaged.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said
So, then, you deny the very existence of any other religious traditions besides the judeo-christian one? There's no such thing as muslims, hindus, or buddhists, and you think there's only ~2.1 billion people, instead of 7 billion?
Weird.
November 17, 2015 at 5:37 PM

I am not sure what was meant by this comment, but my point was that the confidence in the Scriptures that make up the Bible used to support Christianity is being questioned. This questioning is to the point that its value in declaring a God that is producing a life that is worthy of eternity is nullified.
Whether we want to believe it or not the major problem is not the activity of cults, but the strong effort to destroy Christianity entirely. To me Christianity is the only religion that gives a message of hope beyond this human existence. We may believe we don’t need God, but if the God revealed in the Bible exists He doesn’t need us. The Biblical hope is a gift that is worth striving for.
AB

Anonymous said...

"To me Christianity is the only religion that gives a message of hope beyond this human existence."

Obviously you need to brush up on your knowledge of islam, hinduism, zoroastrianism, etc, all of which also give messages of hope beyond this human existence.

Because if there wasn't anything beyond this human existence, that would be so intolerable you'd have to make up some story to comfort yourself with. But since lots of people already have, you'll just take one of those stories off the shelf...lol

Ralph said...

on November 18, 2015 at 9:22 AM.
Anonymous said...

"....convincing yourself that things like the bible,....are true."

and I already knew that.
also

"No, Ralph, you believe you can learn things, but that's just one more thing you're demonstrably wrong about."

No, for from our exchanges of dialogue and with the kind of attitude that you have I have learned that I can learn nothing new from you.
However, as I have previously mentioned, you have as much right, as anyone else has, to change your mind at any time you deem appropriate,

fare thee well &

cheers
ralph.f

Ralph said...

on November 18, 2015 at 9:32 AM
AB said:-

".... but my point was that the confidence in the Scriptures that make up the Bible used to support Christianity is being questioned. This questioning is to the point that its value in declaring a God that is producing a life that is worthy of eternity is nullified.
Whether we want to believe it or not the major problem is not the activity of cults, but the strong effort to destroy Christianity entirely. To me Christianity is the only religion that gives a message of hope beyond this human existence. We may believe we don’t need God, but if the God revealed in the Bible exists He doesn’t need us. The Biblical hope is a gift that is worth striving for."

I believe I got AB's point at the first post and that it takes another Christian to see it.

cheers
ralph.f

Anonymous said...

It's funny how:

"...convincing yourself that things like the bible, a trove of hearsay without a shred of evidence to support it's claims, claims which are as extraordinary as any claims ever were, are true."

gets misquoted to:

"....convincing yourself that things like the bible,....are true."

followed up with:

"and I already knew that."

amply demonstrating, not only your ignorance, but also your refusal to acknowledge what you don't know about the origins of your bible, and how low your standards are for what you're willing to dub "knowledge." There's better evidence for 19 witches in 1692 Salem then there is for the validity of the bible. If this is what passes for "knowledge," with you, then you've just proven my point.

Called it.

Ralph said...

Hi Anonymous
of November 19, 2015 at 9:16 AM

You may, or I guess may not, be interested in watching 'THIS' presentation. Or even 'THIS ONE'

cheers
ralph.f

Trust In Jehovah
“ For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,
but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
against spiritual wickedness in high places.” [Eph:6.12]

Ralph said...

ps.
In case you found little to engage your mind with the last two links, here are a couple more:
'HERE' and 'also HERE'

cheers
ralph.f