Saturday, January 16, 2016

Herbert W Armstrong: 30 years later and the Church of God is a complete mess



Thirty years ago Herbert Armstrong died.  Thirty years later the Churches of God are one complete mess with hundreds of different leaders, with hundreds of different opinions and revelations, and countless prophets and apostles, yet none them are doing a "work" that has had any impact whatsoever. This country and the world at large have no idea who or what the Church of God is.

Dave Pack has lied for four years now that three Church of God leaders would be struck dead by his god and tens of thousands of their members would suddenly jump ship to the Restored Church of God with all of their money.

Gerald Flurry has never had an original concept seep through his alcohol drenched brain.  Building a mini-me Ambassador campus has done nothing except drain money from his dwindling coffers.

Rod Meredith's health is rapidly declining as corruption rips his headquarters apart because he refuses to do anything about abusive ministers that are treating members like dirt.

Ron Weinland is resting in a half way house after his 3 year stint in prison for tax fraud. His jailhouse prophecies have been an absolute failure leading hundreds of dissatisfied members to leave his cult as he and his nutty wife claim to the two witnesses.

United Church of God has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in tithe money to fund worthless campaigns that have produced no results.  Thousands of members split off a few years ago to form another splinter group.  The men now in charge in UCG were Tkach yes-men when the changes came down and disfellowshipped hundreds and hundreds of members while they plotted to start a new church to keep their pay checks coming in.

COGWA split off from UCG claiming to carry on the torch of the true faith.  The same abusive ministers in charge at COGWA were the same abusive ministers in United where they were the same abusive ministers who disfellowshipped hundreds of members in the Worldwide Church of God as they pretended to be "new covenant" while still not the payroll.

Thirty years later and the church is one of the most screwed up messes  the world has ever seen. Liars, abusers, false prophets, pedophiles, and rapists have had free reign with almost no accountability.  Tens of thousands of members have left over the last three decades for greener pastures and freedom.

The worship of Herbert Armstrong exceeds anything the Church of God has ever done with Jesus.  Just look at Rod Meredith's latest comment about HWA.  HWA is the source of knowledge while Jesus gets zero credit for anything in his entire article.

So let us all remember the one whom God used to teach all of us about the Sabbath, about the Holy Days—about the entire purpose of human existence—Herbert W. Armstrong. -
With such a misguided focus how can the Church of God last much longer?

39 comments:

Ed said...

This is so very typical of when cult leaders die. The cult they started splinters and falls apart. The groups that form range from liberal to orthodox. No difference with the WCG.

Byker Bob said...

The conditions described more or less prove that the original WCG was nothing more than an illusion. "The Germans" did not conquer us in 1972, and Jesus did not return in 1975. Interestingly, much as the Jews are still waiting for their Messiah, small groups of somewhat similar modern day Pharisees are still waiting for the Armstrong prohecy mold to begin unfolding forty one years after the fact. Unfortunately, many of them have suffered greatly, and have had their quality of life vastly downgraded as they waited. There has been a great toll in terms of human suffering, all of which was totally unneccessary.

For now, the movement seems to have neutralized itself. However, just as folks thought the Taliban was kaput, zapp! Along came ISIS. Fanaticism never truly dies. It travels in waves.

BB

Black Ops Mikey said...

And the Armstrongists don't even begin to realize the depth and breadth of their comorbidity.

Allen Dexter said...

Nothing really new. All the claims Herbert made about doing a great work were bombast and plain old BS. I often ask people who want to know about my past religious affiliation if they ever heard of Herbert Armstrong. A great many of them only give me a quizzical look. The name means nothing to them.

Anonymous said...

Todays Armstrongites brings to mind Isaiah 8:5. Israel didn't want God ruling over them, they wanted a man, in this case King Saul.

1Saiah 8:5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.

Todays it's the same. They don't Christ ruling over them, they want a man like Armstrong ruling over them. This is mentioned in Luke 19:27

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Rather than Christ ruling over them, they want Armstrong with his 'give way' or 'passing the wealth around' as Obama expressed it. The tares, the lazy, the boot lickers will do the getting, and the hardworking folks do the all the giving. Free stuff always get you elected. And Christ in this view, will be like the queen of England today, a powerless figurehead.
This is the wet dream of the Armstrongites.

Anonymous said...

What a NON-EVENT Herbert Armstrong’s passing turned out to be. The subsequent rejection of his doctrines by the organization he started – and the resulting, seemingly endless parade of splinter groups we talk about and shake our heads about here, and their strange behaviors, loom larger than the man himself. Those poor, still-deluded people who worship Herbert, and bow before his image, have very little to cling to anymore. That man led them to measure their worth as human beings based on their decision to follow him. Herbert seems to have finally felt good about himself given that “so many” made that choice to be his disciples. He DID create a new religion for the money it would bring him, and a whole mythology about “the early years” when he struggled to keep things going. And then he began to believe in the myths himself, about himself.

Among the heretical groups that have their own chapter in Walter Martin’s KINGDOM OF THE CULTS – Worldwide, among them, is one of the smallest – we have, perhaps, the opportunity to see one of them DIE, and be no more. Is it morbid, is it gruesome to hope for this? Part of me, at least, does hope to see it. Other groups considered CULTS by the Christian mainstream are, perhaps, too big, too well entrenched, and too well-funded for any such expectation.

After Worldwide dropped Herbert’s teachings, these groups (and some individuals) imagined there was some sort of momentum to carry on with the Herbert Message. They believed that those years on TV, in particular, were something they could stand on as they kept proclaiming their “truth.” If there ever were such energy present, it is long, long gone now. I remember a website that called Herbert the Most Important Man of the 20th Century. Even then it could be asked, “If that is so, why are there so many people who have never heard of him?” In another place, someone posted the text of THE UNITED STATES AND BRITAIN IN PROPHECY, calling it The Book of the Century; lacking awareness of what some would say in angry response, that person actually denigrated MYSTERY OF THE AGES as being of lesser stature. There are still places, as we know, where these people read 1975 IN PROPHECY because “there’s still some TRUTH in it.” Well, what about the meetings he had with world leaders? Who remembers them now? Getting to meet all those heads of state was a unique feat, but the lasting “impact” of meeting with Herbert Armstrong, which we assured ourselves would go on quite a while, went away – completely away. And those remaining, somehow, under the man’s spell refuse – still, still refuse – to believe there was nothing of value in what Herbert offered them.

I cherish that I have overcome, mostly, my bitterness at being duped by one of the great deceivers of the 20th Century – there’s a title I WOULD bestow.

I cherish that, at Christmastime, people are amazed by the gifts I find that are so appropriate for each person. Gifts relating to the music they like, the clothes they like to wear, the kind of dog they have. It is a joy to make people smile. Buried beneath all that is some awareness of Jesus’ birth and that He came to save us by dying on the cross, but it’s there. And it beats the behavior where you wrinkle your face and, in your mind at least, call them all a bunch of “pagans.”

I cherish the years I got to spend with my late mother, without the obstacle of “that crazy church” between us, before she passed, at almost age 91, in 2007. I don’t know for sure, but I believe that Mom probably prayed every day, from when I jumped into Armstrongism “for good” to that day I left, that I would realize that what I believed was nonsense. The beginning of the nonsense was the assurance that I had “understanding” others, including Mom and Dad, were incapable of. I needed to feel “special,” and I did . . . for a while. Then I got better acquainted with the harsh, cruel, miserly, demanding, ever finger-wagging “God” yet worshipped over there.

May that “God,” and all his groups, be no more!

Ralph said...

on January 16, 2016 at 11:04 PM
Allen Dexter said...

"I often ask people who want to know about my past religious affiliation if they ever heard of Herbert Armstrong. A great many of them only give me a quizzical look. The name means nothing to them."

I could be wrong but I think HWA claimed around '144,000' followers or maybe somewhat less.
"The U.S. entered 2016 with an estimated population of 322,762,018 according to an end-of-year estimate from the U.S. Census Bureau,..." found "HERE".
On today's population figures HWA claimed somewhere between .04 and .05% of the USA population, never mind the rest of the world. Is it any wonder that the name means nothing to most people.

cheers
ralph.f

Ralph said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Why might Rod Meredith give Jesus zero credit? Did Rod read Jesus' words where He said in John 8:28: "...I do nothing of myself..."?

Why might Rod Meredith give Jesus zero credit? I suggest it is b/c Rod Meredith, like Doug Winnail, Jim Franks...well, all of the leaders of the xcogs, who do virtually the same thing as they strive to earn their salvation by their own works and their own self-righteousness, are still just babes. Babes?

None of them and their man-made organizations have spiritually grown much in the past 30 years. How do we know? They continue to preach/teach Milk (basic doctrines) and Junk Food (recall all of their prophecies that are recognized as lies today).

We are all familiar with the Junk Food...and they're still waiting for and preaching about the "soon-coming" Mickey Mouse Kingdoom of God to be established by Jesus' reign on planet earth for 1,000 years. Or, they are still scratching their heads striving to figure out why those 10 kings/nations aren't yet in existence. This kind of Junk Food has been spread around since the day HWA died, 30 years ago, well....for long before that time even. The babes are missing something, aren't they?

And that Milk? What did Rod Meredith, a babe, focus on and want us to all remember? The Sabbath! The Holydays! These are basic principles, foundational, information for babes and are part of the foundation the Apostle Paul wrote about.

Hebrews 6:1 "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."

That is all milk only! Not strong meat at all!

1 Corinthians 3:2 "I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able."

Rod Meredith is still on the Milk! In fact, most of the time Rod is "beating" his readers with his "forever" talking about the 10 Commandments and the breaking of them! The leaders of the xcogs are virtually the same with their own thinking. Where is the "beef?"

Milk is for babes! Proof?

Hebrews 5:13 "For every one that useth Milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe."

Yet, Milk is important and it is needed. Peter said so!

1 Peter 2:2 "As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:"

HWA fed us Milk, and we needed the milk, but there should come a time when one goes on beyond the Milk! Do all of the babes still need milk? The babes can't give us anything else? Nothing new under the sun?

Hebrews 5:12 "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat."

While the babes continue to use God's Law to put their thumbs down upon us, God is busy accomplishing something else: reconciling the world unto Himself!

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." 2 Corinthians 5:19

Not imputing trespasses unto the world? Babes, what means it? Did not the Father send His Son NOT to condemn this world? Or, do you babes think John 3:16-17 is a lie? Is 2 Cor 5:19 a lie?

At least HWA had many focus on the milk? What are you babes really doing?

Yes, Rod Meredith has a mis-guided focus, but he isn't alone......

John

Anonymous said...

January 17, 2016 at 4:57 AM Even when I joined Armstrongs church, I kept wandering if was duped. It's hard to believe that millions are wrong, and several thousand can be right. But I acted on what I knew to be moral. I worked hard at work. And God at times, answered my pray requests. I say at times because I greedily flooded Him with requests. This is where all these complaints on this site fall down. The experience is that God is a prayer answering God. Armstrong is a moral joke, the ministers should be in prison for their mistreatment of church members. Verbally bashing and tearing members down is illegal and immoral. Lording it over church members means robbing people of their lives. So I am no fan of all these corporate churches. But, but, God answers peoples prayers. It is even the experience of some people in Protestant churches.

Ed said...

It is unhealthy to view any religious leader as having a higher level of spirituality or spiritual authority. Since all organized religions have leaders that members look up to as their spiritual guidance doesn't it follow that it is unhealthy to belong to any organized religion?

Once you give up your critical thinking skills to a group-think mentality you lose a great deal of your personal freedom of thought. You become a slave to the leader or group.

Do we really have to be a member of a religious group to be accepted by God? Do we have to be a part of "any" religious group in order to "grow" spiritually? These are all myths to get and keep people attending.

Anonymous said...

Ed said, "Once you give up your critical thinking skills to a group-think mentality you lose a great deal of your personal freedom of thought. You become a slave to the leader or group."


YES!!! And if you are in LCG and dare to be a critical thinker, you will be disfellowshipped.

So if you are in LCG and you are reading this, keep any questions or concerns to yourself. You can't even trust your friends. Meredith exalts snitches which breeds and atmosphere of spies and informants. No one is safe.

Byker Bob said...

In the past twenty years, I've only encountered one person amongst customers and associates who brought up the name of Herbert Armstrong. This customer was Mormon, but listened to radio preachers who fell outside the scope of Mormonism. I overheard him telling someone that he had enjoyed listening to HWA explaining Bible prophecy.

Back when HWA had to take GTA's microphone away, most of the church members pretended to see "the emperor's new clothes". But, I recognized immediately that at his advanced age, HWA was noticeably beyond his prime, and the broadcast audience was being given inferior product. It was nothing like the earlier broadcasts of the mid-1950s that had entrapped my parents. Astonishingly, this was covered up by supreme adulation in the pictures of the Plain Truth, and by the applause of the brethren at F/T sites simply over Captain Black buzzing auditoriums with the Gulfstream, signalling "Elijah's" arrival. HWA as a "pop icon". It was the same level of applause that one heard at Waylon Jennings or Willie Nelson concerts!

The message, or the seeming power of it, died with HWA. Even if the prophecy mold actually were to suddenly kick in, the ego-splintered movement has lost the capacity to warn the world.

BB

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Even when I joined Armstrongs church, I kept wandering if was duped. It's hard to believe that millions are wrong, and several thousand can be right. But I acted on what I knew to be moral. I worked hard at work. And God at times, answered my pray requests. I say at times because I greedily flooded Him with requests. This is where all these complaints on this site fall down. The experience is that God is a prayer answering God. Armstrong is a moral joke, the ministers should be in prison for their mistreatment of church members. Verbally bashing and tearing members down is illegal and immoral. Lording it over church members means robbing people of their lives. So I am no fan of all these corporate churches. But, but, God answers peoples prayers. It is even the experience of some people in Protestant churches.
January 17, 2016 at 6:53 AM


The interesting thing is that Anon6:53 on the one hand claims to be no fan of Armstrongism, and yet, by saying "It is even the experience of some people in Protestant churches," seems to express that he still believes that "millions are wrong, and several thousand can be right," despite so many of his own complaints.

My experience, as well as the experience of clinical researchers, is that the judeo-christian god at least, is not a prayer answering god. Nor, indeed, was there any "holy spirit" transforming my life. What are the odds that sometimes what you pray for will come to pass, just by random chance alone? However, the odds that you will be transformed into a "new person" by random chance are essentially zero.

For many years growing up I remember hearing about people who left because they had a problem with this person or that person, and what was always said about them was that they had "allowed a person to come between them and god." And it was the seeming reasonableness of that which was used to excuse all the abuses, failures, etc. by HWA, the leadership, and the ministry.

Eventually I realized that although I can't use other people's failures as an excuse for my decisions, it's not inappropriate to ask where a responsible god might be in such a corrupt system. Is it the "holy spirit" that led HWA to rape his daughter, or leads the ministry to be worthy of prison? What the hypocrisy to me is a signal of, or is evidence of, is the falsification of the presence of any god or god force, at least among Armstrongism. It's the proof that it's not just me that can't find this god.

Far fewer people would go to church or bother trying to have a relationship with an invisible, nonexistent entity, if they didn't think what it promised to help them escape was worth it, even after discounting it by an amount commensurate with their doubt. The hypocrisy of churches in general isn't an excuse, it's evidence toward a larger argument that suggests religion in general has no value. And if this god can't come through for you with what he promised for the here-and-now (personal transformation), what hope is there he'll come through for you later on?

Anonymous said...

The past can't be discounted. The 1960s and 1970s generation was given a noticeable warning of certain prophesies by HWA and supporters.

Black Ops Mikey said...

The past can't be discounted. The 1960s and 1970s generation was given a noticeable warning of certain prophesies by HWA and supporters.

Which never have and never will come to pass.

Martha said...

BB is right about the lack of Armstrong name recognition. No one outside the movement knows who HWA is. Even the younger folks within the movement are ambivalent about him. I know I was when I was in the cult. Is this a natural outcome of time passing, or do those who are more moderate within the movement recognize they need to distance themselves from him? And if HWA's reputation is such a liability, why trust that he really heard from God?

HWA still matters and young Armstrongists need to know why. Like it or not, this is your spiritual heritage. Those who you follow now, who teach you and influence your life, voluntarily chose to follow this man and perpetuate his teachings.


http://asbereansdid.blogspot.com/2014/11/herbert-w-armstrong-why-he-still-matters.html
http://asbereansdid.blogspot.com/2014/11/herbert-w-armstrongs-doctrines-and-fruit.html
http://asbereansdid.blogspot.com/2014/11/herbert-w-armstrong-and-todays-churches.html

Byker Bob said...

Part of the reason that the ACOGs are in the mess they are in is the attitude of glorifying old age. While I was an AC student, basically the students were groomed to behave as if they were already in their mid to late 30s. They had to do this to credibly pull off the authority structure present throughout the field. The minute you acted like, or became a fogie was the roadsign to promotability. At least while I was attending, they wouldn't have thought of having youth pastors, because youthfulness was something to be shed just as quickly as possible. It's why 18 year old freshmen at AC went to El Rancho to buy Brylcream and slicked their hair straight back in imitation of HWA, and why coeds who had had long beautiful hair adapted the Loma style.

That's not the way the universe works. Youthfulness is vitality. It is energy. It is the period of life when most people do or did their best work. You must tap it, encourage it, and speak to it if you intend to remain viable as an organization. This is why we see the same grey demographic throughout all of the splinter groups. It was what was deliberately bred into the church.

BB

Anonymous said...

11.48AM Human beings are religious creatures. History proves this. Today's most popular religion in the west, is left wing socialism, or more broadly, collectivism. Why not harp on this religion, since you are anti religion? A reminder that a Christian is one who follows Christ rather than some religious leader or group. Hence leaders sins do not turn people away from bible Christianity.
Whilst I'm here, we transform ourselves. God does not do it for us, never has. I have heard Tele evangelists claim this, but it's false advertising. The bible calls self transformation 'overcoming'. Try it sometime. Some instances are, getting a education, reading good books, meditating to strengthen ones beliefs, develop ones skills etc. We develop via trade, not God waving a magic wand. But you are right, your get something-for-nothing God doesn't exist. It only exists in peoples imagination.
So, work, work, work, work, and all shalt go well with the, and God shalt answer thou prayers. Amen.

Senior citizen said...

The church of God came to nothing because it was built on the foundation of Herbert W. Armstrong rather than on Jesus Christ.

Byker Bob said...

I am not sure that that is accurate, 1:02! TWT and the PT gained a certain amount of notice, but you have to remember, HWA had assigned a definite time frame for these events. Most church members accepted the backpedalling on the dates, and reprogrammed when they didn't come in on schedule.
Anyone else familiar with the prophecies and the dates dismissed them when they didn't happen when forecast. (1972-75) What else could they have done? Even William Miller's followers gave up after a couple of reschedules. The HWAcaca didn't happen! Excuses don't cut it. Those who have ordained themselves as apostles and prophets now are continuing to screw up. It is both bogus and lame! A false prophet gets one strike, and then he is out!

BB

Anonymous said...

If you keep the Sabbath, if you keep the holy days, if you tithe, if you follow everything HWA taught, if you pray and study every day are you a good Christian? Read 1Cor 13 first few verses. If you can speak multiple languages, if you have great biblical knowledge, if you understand prophecy if you have faith that can move mountains and lack LOVE what do you have? You have NOTHING. Jesus was not self righteous. He fed thousands. He didn't send the multitudes away hungry. A woman taken I adultry, he didn't condemn but told her to go and sin no more. Of course the religious leaders wanted to stone her. Jesus healed ont the Sabbath the religious leaders condemned him for breaking the Sabbath. Rod Meredith said he has not committed a major sin since his baptism. I am sure God is impressed. It would be so refreshing to see one of the splinter groups go out and serve the poor, the orphans, the sick. Just do something anything except feel righteous because they have "the truth" I really doubt the thief on the cross had been keeping the Sabbath and Hoy Days, I doubt he was tithing, he would not have been allowed to attend church. I doubt Meredith, Flurry, Pack or the others will understand the message Jesus not only taught but lived

Anonymous said...

You are way way off with comments like "Is it the "holy spirit" that led HWA to rape his daughter,.." I regret that I read your "post."

Anonymous said...

3:27 PM, I agree that Armstrong cheapened the warning of WW3 by adding his personal time frame. But his church did point to the prophesies source in the book of Danial and Revelation. The core of the warning wasn't the timing, but the events themselves. And the bible does say the work is for a 'witness' rather than mass conversion or total witness. Only God would know the precise definition or whether the 'witness' was satisfactory. I suppose the question is, can mankind say 'but we weren't warned' if WW 3 strikes.

Anonymous said...


“Herbert W. Armstrong: 30 years later and the Church of God is a complete mess”


Herbert W. Armstrong died 30 years ago on January 16, 1986.

In the church eras theory that HWA taught, the Church of God (Seventh Day) was the Sardis era. HWA taught that the COG(7D) was a true era of the true church that had done the work of God for a while, but was small and now fruitless and basically dead. Today, the COG(7D) still has a name that says it is alive, but it is still basically dead. Even the vast majority of people in the COGs today would never have even heard about the COG(7D) if HWA had not constantly told them about it. Any small stirrings in the COG(7D) today are mostly just the movement of worms in the dead body.

Next came HWA's own Worldwide Church of God, which was the Philadelphia era. The WCG was the largest and best-known COG group ever. All the teachings in the WCG had come through HWA, who taught near the end of his life that he was the one who was prophesied to come in the spirit and power of Elijah to restore all things. At the time, everyone seemed to believe this, and HWA's own Advisory Council of Elders even presented HWA with a Steuben Crystal art glass called “The Cup of Elijah The Prophet.” Obviously, they were either true believers or else real suck ups.

Afterwards would come the Laodicea era, which is what we would be in right now. Interestingly, HWA had once warned that those of the Philadelphia era were in danger of becoming also those of the Laodicea era. While thinking that they knew it all, and were rich, and had need of nothing, they would in fact actually be “wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.” The idea was that those of the Laodicea era would need to, and fully deserve to, go into a Great Tribulation to get cleaned up. Just compare the relatively large and successful WCG under HWA with the hopeless mess of confusing splinter and sliver wreckage that exists today. All the teachings in the WCG that had come through HWA have been changed, deleted, and replaced, by new revelation, doctrinal upgrades, and new prophetic guesses in the numerous splinter groups.

Herbert W. Armstrong died 30 years ago, and today the Laodicea era is a complete mess.

Anonymous said...


Anonymous at January 17, 2016 at 11:48 AM said...

“For many years growing up I remember hearing about people who left because they had a problem with this person or that person, and what was always said about them was that they had "
allowed a person to come between them and god."


This little, old gem definitely requires a comment.

The Plain Truth about the splinter groups today is that they are full of many wicked people, male and female, young and old, high and low in the organizations. These wicked people are just there to prey on others. If their victims do not cooperate with these perverts and go along with their selfish and immoral agendas, or if their victims so much as say anything about what is going on, the perverts complain to the leaders in the cults and get their victims suspended, expelled, kicked out, slandered all over the place, etc. This is the sad reality of the COG scene today, whether you look at a satanic impostor cult like filthy Flurry's PCG full of old sex maniacs, sex perverts, and predators, or whether you look at something smoother-talking like the Council of Evil with its UCG full of crude, old, sex perverts and godless, second-generation liars who visit it regularly from Tkach's Graceless Community of Iniquity (GCI).

It is absolutely true that the victims “had a problem with this or that per[vert],” but it is not at all true that the victims “allowed a per[vert] to come between them and [G]od.” The massive, ongoing, relentless, chronic lying, slandering, and evildoing that goes on in the splinter groups today simply blindsides the innocent victims who never expect such pure evil from so many church people, and especially not from all the self-appointed leaders. It is not the victims that “allow” all the evil that the perverts do, but rather it is the leaders of the splinter groups who actually support and enforce all the evil that they do.

Byker Bob said...

The problem, 5:29, is that most people who were associated with Armstrongism are only familiar with the HWA version, accepting that at face value, rather than looking to others who were involved with the history. And, actually, the Seventh Day Adventists, and the Jehovah's Witnesses are both much larger than the WCG ever was, and both preach of the end times.

William Miller, author of the Great Disappointment of 1844, preached that the Laodicean "era" began following that disappointment. You see, the extra-biblical theory of church eras was not an HWA original. It came from Adventism, and they still preach it today. Also, one can say what they wish about COG-7, but some who have checked it out report that they are a much more loving and Christian group than any of the ACOGs, or the original WCG. HWA defined for all of us what he considered "dead" to mean, actually making it more about himself than anything else, and the then Radio Church of God, later WCG, and splinters all lapped that up at face value.

The Bible doesn't specifically mention World War III, or the USA. The conclusion that it does was only possible through HWA assigning the label "modern day Israel" to the US, a label which we now know is a genetic impossibility. Some use Paul's verses calling Christians the new Israelites, but the Armstrongs always referred to the Christians who populated and founded the USA as "Christians falsely so-called". Also, many theologians believe that the majority of events prophesied in the books of Daniel and Revelation actually were fulfilled upon physical Israel starting in 70 AD with the destruction of the temple, and concluding with the bar Kochba Rebellion, 132-135 AD. After that era, the Jews were no longer organized or able to govern themselves even under Pax Romana style Roman oversight.

If you were to conduct a survey regarding the end of the age today, I seriously doubt that anyone would invoke the name Herbert W. Armstrong. They know of Harold Camping, or the preaching of the Jehovah's Witnesses, or perhaps have heard of the "Left Behind" series of books and movies, or even have great concerns regarding carbon footprints and global warming. But the number of people who heard or could remember the HWA version of the gospel would be either statistically negligible, or wouldn't even register. Over the last 40 years, I've told many people who asked that I grew up in a horrible, toxic cult. When they ask which one, so far not a single person has recognized the names Herbert Armstrong, Worldwide Church of God, or Ambassador College. I would suggest that even the Manson cult has much more staying power in peoples' minds than Armstrongism. They don't even recognize LCG's name, and more people were murdered in that than by the Manson followers.

BB

Anonymous said...

The Plain Truth about the splinter groups today is that they are full of many wicked people, male and female, young and old, high and low in the organizations.

Nobody can be an ACOG member today and be unaware of the false teachings and the evil leaders. DNA refutes British Israelism, HWA got most of his "new understandings" while raping his own daughter for 10 years, Flurry, Meredith and Pack are money-grubbing nepotists who don't even follow their own teachings, etc. etc.

People stay in these groups because they think they can get something from the other members. Maybe they can get an ordination and fuel their self-esteem by lording over ordinary members. Maybe they can worm their way to the inner circle and even get a paycheck. Maybe they just want to keep their old friends at any cost.

Of course, since they all know that their leaders believe and teach lies, they are compromised from the get-go. If they are willing to lie about God, they will certainly lie about (and to) ordinary members. In other words, very few in the ACOGs are "innocent" members. Most are going along with what they know to be lies, because they believe they will get ahead by doing so. No wonder the ACOGs are so filled with immorality, from top to bottom.

Anonymous said...

"People stay in these groups because they think they can get something from the other members. Maybe they can get an ordination and fuel their self-esteem by lording over ordinary members. Maybe they can worm their way to the inner circle and even get a paycheck. Maybe they just want to keep their old friends at any cost."

I would never be so dumb as to say there aren't despicable, power-hungry, money-grubbing bastards in these groups. There have always been, and because of the horrible church culture, there always will be, no matter how small and relatively impoverished these ponds get. Hey, the smaller the pond, the bigger it makes a fish look, amirite?

My parents stay in one of these groups. They are old, never wanted to be "ordained," but I think they do want to keep their old friends. They keep praying, obeying, and most importantly, paying.

I think the majority of people are like my parents. They stay in these groups because they read Daniel and Revelation which scares them shitless, are convinced that there's a god, that religion has value, that Armstrongism is the "true" religion, what they're doing is pleasing to god, and that when they die their name will be in the book of life and so because of their dutiful attendance and tithing, death will just be temporary. And they aren't going to let anybody tell them why what they're doing is not only not going to pan out in the long run, but that they should be able to see they're being conned right now to boot. They just keep looking at that carrot, and keep paying in to support that corrupt system.

Anonymous said...

4:04 AM Stated: "Nobody can be an ACOG member today and be unaware of the false teachings and the evil leaders. DNA refutes British Israelism..."

I've read this claim several times... yet I've never seen anyone mention their source of evidence for making this claim. Source??

Thanks!

Anonymous said...

7.15 PM, I agree with most of what you say, especially the 'pure evil' part. I complained to a minister once about abusive church members. He reacted with murderous rage, since it's immoral in his eyes to acknowledge the evil in front of you. So he slandered me to endure that I don't 'infect' other members with the evil of seeing the evil in front of you. A den of iniquity.

Ralph said...

on January 18, 2016 at 3:19 PM
Anonymous said...

"DNA refutes British Israelism..."
I've read this claim several times... yet I've never seen anyone mention their source of evidence for making this claim. Source??"

I'd like to see some positive proof also. Show us how it's done.

cheers
ralph.f

Retired Prof said...

Ralph, go to The Painful Truth blog and scroll down the "links" list on the right-hand side of the screen. "DNA Refutes British Israelism" is on that list. Click on it and enjoy the read.

Ralph said...

on January 19, 2016 at 2:10 PM
Retired Prof.

I have visited the PT blog and read "There are at least eight ways to prove British Israelism false:" and I have a couple of questions on the points raised:

1. "DNA proves that the United States and British Commonwealth are not lost tribes of Israel;"
How does it do this?

2. "Scripture shows that there are no 10 lost tribes of Israel -- the New Testament shows descendants of 6 of the tribes;"
Where does the New Testament show show the location of the tribes other than Judah, and other than one or two descendants.?

3."Sociology demonstrates that there is no compatibility between Western Europeans and Israelites; "
How does sociology do this?

4. "Failed prophecies prove that British Israelism is a lie and produces false prophets;"
What, and whose failed prophecies?

cheers
ralph.f

Ralph said...

January 19, 2016 at 2:10 PM
ps'
What became of the ten tribes as noted by Josephus? vix.
Antiquities Book 11 Chap.5
"2....but then the entire body of the people of Israel remained in that country; wherefore there are but two tribes in Asia and Europe subject to the Iomans, while the ten tribes are beyond Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers."
'an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers."

I Believe Steve Collins has the answer to that one in his book "The Lost Ten Tribes Of Israel-Found"
Now out of print but available as an 'E'book.

cheers
ralph.f

Retired Prof said...

Ralph, I mentioned on an earlier thread where to find the details about DNA and British Israelism, but apparently I posted my comment after everybody had lost interest in the thread.

You can get the explanation you seek by going to The Painful Truth blog and scrolling down the list of links on the right hand side of the page to "DNA Refutes British Israelism." I think you will enjoy rummaging through The Painful Truth, both current forum discussions and the large collection of Armstrongism materials archived there.

Anonymous said...

It is irrefutably proven by DNA that many Irish descend from Middle Eastern farmers.
This by the way is taught in every educational institution in the world that Europeans come from the Middle East and all people come from Africa.

However in no way does the scientific data compare to the Armstrongist time frame.

In the same manner I hold the book of Genesis in high esteem.
Not because the stories of Adam/ Eve Esau and Jacob in resemble the scientific data in any way. But because it gives a good impression of mankinds oral history and memory during the transition phase from hunter gatherer to farmer in the Anatolian peninsula..

nck

Ralph said...

January 22, 2016 at 10:46 PM.

.Retired Prof, I found the link you referred to, read it through then put a few questions together as found in my post dated January 21, 2016 at 9:00 PM. coupled with January 21, 2016 at 9:26 PM.

I still wonder how human DNA can be "mapped" from DNA samples several thousand years old. From where would such samples be obtained? Can DNA be changed in any way, thus resulting in an erroneous research result?

cheers
ralph.f

Anonymous said...

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/dec/28/origins-of-the-irish-down-to-mass-migration-ancient-dna-confirms

again.

Of course the Irish and other Europeans come from the Middle East.
Oral and some biblical history echo this fact.

In no way again does the scientific data confirm armstrongist time frame from USBin proph.

Science however is always open to new knowledge. One of the ways to prove science wrong and the bible right is that the current middle eastern people are not the original once.

Then the european populations could haven been the original ones. This only presents the problem that the current peoples calling themselves jews and living in Israel are not jews or part of the original tribes at all.

This is the overall thesis of white supremacists.

So either science is right or the present jews are not jews proving white supremacists right. USB in prophecy is wrong in all cases since it just does'nt fit the time frame for the dna finds.

My point only is that both science and the bible contain valuable information. USB in prophecy however does not. That is just a political manifesto to explain the sudden rise to power of the Anglo Saxon world from the early 1800 extending into the current American Empire that is about to end for which the armstrongist have a solution called "the times of the gentiles". ACtually economic data show that it has always been the "times of the gentiles" except for that short 200 year time frame in which the anglo saxons called the shots.

nck