Tuesday, May 3, 2016

The Dutiful Church of God or Gestapo Church of God...You Decide



There never seems to be an end to the endless supply of Church of God splinter groups started by men who feel they have a special calling to preserve the "truth once restored." We are now blessed to have joining the over 600 different splinter groups...the Dutiful Church of God.

Of course no new Church of God can be started without praising Herbert Armstrong. Notice the description of their new splinter personality cult.  What is missing in the introduction?  Loads of praise and devotion to Herbert Armstrong and commitment to follow his ways, but no Jesus Christ.

About Dutiful Church of God? 
Dutiful means -showing proper regard to a person with higher status. It also means devoted, obedient, compliant, dedicated, attentive, and motivated. 
The Dutiful Church of God is dutiful to show proper regard to the teachings expounded by the late Herbert W. Armstrong. We are devoted to his teachings. We are obedient in follow his ways. As called by God under the late Herbert W. Armstrong, we are dedicate to continue on and hold fast to his original teachings.
Later they have this:

We are compliant to preach the truths to God’s flock splintered by grandiose leaders in the Church of God who believed they are greater than their teacher HWA.
We remember the teachings of the late HWA. We do not idolize and worship him. Instead we pay him high regard as a great teacher.
God starts small as in the time of the patriarchs in OT, in the time of Christ in NT, and in the time of HWA in the Philadelphian era of the Church of God. The Dutiful Church of God starts small. Do not despise the day of small beginnings. We will try to serve God’s flock who believe that we should not change but continue the original teachings of HWA.
We are small but motivated in standing fast, holding the traditions, contending earnestly for the faith, and no longer be children tossed to and fro and carried about by trickery and cunning of men.
Once more we have little men, who like Bob Elijah Elisa Amos Thiel, who have self appointed themselves as the true  preservers of God's Herbert's words.  Though they may be little, they will be mighty.  Yeah right.

I can almost guarantee you this is a case of more men who cannot hold down real jobs and are looking for handouts from gullible church members.  The religion gravy train is a profitable one.

If you plan on joining this personality cult then you need to beware that you will NOT be able to criticize your minister about ANYTHING!  They say so, right up front.

Listen To The Counsel Of Your Minister.
PROVERBS 19:20 “Listen to counsel and accept discipline, That you may be wise the rest of your days.”
Even Christ obeyed the counsel of His Father.  God did not send Jesus to the Jews to be an arbiter of dispute.  When two Jews went to him to solve their argument, Christ said to them: “Who told you I am your judge?”  Be like Christ who listened to the instructions of his Father.
Here is a counsel from your minister.
Do not give advice to Minister but you must  listen to His advice. His counsel.  And you will become wise in your spiritual life in the rest of your days. Wise in the ways of God. Wise how to get eternal life. Not wise in your own eyes and wise in the ways of the world.
Accept Admonition And Discipline From Your Minister.
Admonition is an authoritative counsel.  An example is counsel coming from your Minister.
Discipline is an act of training to obey rules. As soldiers of Christ we can not perfect our TRAINING without ADMONITION and DISCIPLINE.
PROV. 3: 11-12 “My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor detest His correction; For whom the Lord loves He corrects, Just as a father corrects the son in whom he delights.”
I would love to see you all in the World Tomorrow. It would be a great reunion.
Here is a counsel, a good wisdom.
You must overcome your trials. You have problems with tithing, overcome it. You are often absent from services, overcome it. How many times are you absent in a year? Five times? Six times? Not good. You have problems with submission to authority, overcome it. You have problems with humility, overcome. Only overcomer will be in the WORLD TOMORROW.
Avoid Strife By Not Arguing With Your Minister.
One of the sources of strife in the CHURCH is insolence. Insolence- means rude and disrespectful.
Strife is conflict, friction, discord, disagreement, dissension, dispute, argument, quarreling, wrangling, bickering, controversy, bad feeling, falling-out, bad blood, hostility and animosity.

81 comments:

Vaughn said...

Perhaps I'm too lowbrow, but, when reading their name my first thought was Beavis, of Beavis and Butthead: "Duti, heh heh heh, their name is Duti."

DennisCDiehl said...

Dutiful = brain dead

Byker Bob said...

99% of them claim to be preserving the teachings of HWA, yet do in fact change them. HWA's teachings even changed through the course of his own lifetime. Do they pick 1939? 1955? 1973? 1985? My guess would be that they have frozen the doctrines as they were in 1985, but it would be nicer for the brethren if they picked a time that predated "government from the top-down".

What would distinguish this group as being unique or special if a splinter-surfer were comparison-shopping for diarrhea amongst the ACOGs?

Who started this? Is it anyone whose name we would recognize?

BB

RSK said...

So how dutiful are they? Is duck meat unclean again?

Glenn said...

A sense of oppression just oozes out of those statements.

Anonymous said...

The most important duty will be: "Pay your tithes and give generous offerings, sucker! Allen C. Dexter

Hedgehog said...

It's all (every one of these 600 groups) just so much horrible bullshit. So much harm has been and still is being done by these ignorant groups. Suicide is just one of the outcomes of these awful groups but is the most personal one in my family.

Anonymous said...

"Here is a counsel from your minister. Do not give advice to Minister but you must listen to His advice. His counsel."

How can we test if you actually work for God? By what authority? I mean, the apostles are in the Bible, but you are not!

PROV. 3: 11-12 “My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor detest His correction; For whom the Lord loves He corrects, Just as a father corrects the son in whom he delights.”

How does this relate to you? If I am not allowed to question a minister, then I would end up being most likely deceived. What are you afraid of?

"One of the sources of strife in the CHURCH is insolence. Insolence- means rude and disrespectful.
Strife is conflict, friction, discord, disagreement, dissension, dispute, argument, quarreling, wrangling, bickering, controversy, bad feeling, falling-out, bad blood, hostility and animosity."

How many splinters? Ouch... Yep, sounds like armstrongism to me!

DBP

Anonymous said...

Your kingdom will come at the LOSS of my freedom!
" tell me what i got to run from, tell me what to see when i can see, tell me what to think when im thinking, tell me what to believe when I believe, tell me who im allowed to worship, tell me who to love, and tell me who to hate. tell me what i can steal when im stealin, tell me who you will teach me to be."

James said...

The Painful Truth who is behind the curtain:


Registrant Contact
Name: James Dolino
Organization: Dutiful Church Of God
Mailing Address: Ilaya 3rd, Iloilo Iloilo 5006 PH
Phone: +63.09173211519
Ext:
Fax:
Fax Ext:
Email: jamesdolino@gmail.com
________________________________________________

From Wiki we read :
Iloilo (Hiligaynon: Kapuoran sang Iloilo; Filipino: Lalawigan ng Iloilo) is a province in the Philippines located in the region of Western Visayas. Iloilo occupies the southeast portion of Panay Island and is bordered by province of Antique to the west and province of Capiz and the Jintotolo Channel to the north. Just off Iloilo's southeast coast is the island province Guimaras, once part of Iloilo but now an independent province. Across the Panay Gulf and Guimaras Strait is Negros Occidental. Iloilo's capital is Iloilo City though the city itself is independent and not governed by the provincial government of Iloilo.

Connie Schmidt said...

A search of their website "donate" page for Pay Pal, shows that the funds are received by one "Jonathan A. Dicen".

A search of Dicen shows that he was a writer for PACK'S Restored Church of God "Real Truth" rag, in the early 2010s.

He has a Facebook Page, and he is an accountant in the Philippines. Pictured on his page is a group that appears to be his flock, about 50 Filipino people en toto. He is therefore a split away from Pack.

Although odds are against it, I certainly hope he is an improvement for his followers over Dave Pack!

Paul said...

I heard the same sermon in the WCG over and over by many 'leaders'.
Armstrong, Tkach, Meredith, Flurry, Pack all sing the same song:
"No one could get along with me. They demoted me. They didn't like me at HQ. I was sent to out of the way places. They didn't let me do stuff. They didn't see how important I really was."
These men seek power, position and importance. They are control freaks and have a need to run people's lives.
Of course Jesus Christ must take a back seat.

Anonymous said...

'Administering Gods government' or 'government from the too down,' are code words for the ministers lording it over church members lives and faith. Both are condemned in the bible. 'Listen to ministers' is a emotionally loaded expression whose real meaning is the ministers running peoples lives. I have often heard tyrannical church members use that expression, with the tones in their voice giving them away. What's being discussed is ministers robbing church members of their lives, with religious window dressing thrown in. This isn't Gods government, it's Satan government. Robbing people of their human lives means robbing them of their eternal lives, since one cannot build character if stripped of personal responsibility. Notice the flavour of the church article, as if talking to literal children. This is another deliberate ploy to rob members of their rights and adulthood.
I would love to see these 'ministers' get a real job, in the real world.
Doubtful though, since they are so in love with their fantasy Walt Disney type 'church world.'

DennisCDiehl said...

A short reminder of your real rights concerning church and ministry


You have the right not to be spiritually judged or have your loyalty or sincerity questioned based on what you are able or unable to give financially to the church.

You have the right to ask a Pastor if he checks tithes and offerings for any of the above reasons before giving to a church.

You have the right to say "I'm tired and won't be there, " to any and all activities, plays, fundraisers, studies, seminars, prayer groups, rehearsals, practices and sermons.

You have the right to say "I don't care about that."

You have the right to question the advice, counsel or sermon of any minister, elder, deacon or any other person in authority.

You have the right to ask all the "how can that be," "how could that happen," "why does it say this here and that there,"

You have the right to not want elders, deacons or your friends accompanying the minister on visits to your home to talk to you.

You have the right to discuss or not discuss your life with the minister as you see fit.

You have the right to expect absolute confidentiality and for your story not to show up in the sermon next week, even though "I won't say the name."

You have the right not to answer questions your pastor may ask you or your children about your sexual practices. If he insists, then insist that you all share together.

You have the right to not let the pastor inform you as to who you can and cannot date or marry.

You have the right to enjoy your sexuality free of church or pastoral approval.

You have the right to not share which or if you are taking medications of any sort with the pastor.

You have the right to take such medication and not be judged as having a lack of faith or trust in God to heal you.

You have the right to seek professional help without informing your Pastor of the nature of the help and you have the right to not be helped solely by the pastor under threat of repercussions.

You have the right to insist the pastor get professional help should the need arise and the man is causing more harm than good. You have the right to remind him that God does not directly speak to him nor express His will only through the mind of the pastor and that makes you uncomfortable if he thinks that is so.

You have the right to be wrong about a many things.

You have the right to believe you are correct about many things without repercussions.
You have the right not to care about everything that others think you must care about to be a good Christian.

You have the right to tell the pastor he is wrong, mistaken or exaggerating.

You have the right to dress as you wish, wear the jewelry you wish and make up you wish or not wish without being labeled a whore or a goody goody.

You have the right to like the food he does not like and to not like the foods he does. You have the right to like the schools he doesn't and not like the ones he does.

You have the right not to bear your soul to the ministers wife.

You have the right to like or not like, agree or not agree with the ministers wife.

You have the right to not view the world through the pastor's eyes morally or politically.

DennisCDiehl said...

http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Church-Members-Bill-of-Rights----Basic-Rights-Any-Member-of-a-Church-Should-Expect-to-Enjoy&id=165318

Stephen said...

"but it would be nicer for the brethren if they picked a time that predated 'government from the top-down'."

But BB, that's the god-ordained monarchical structure, didn't you know?

I don't know how many times I heard it said that the kingdom of god isn't going to be a democracy. True, although now I understand the fact that it won't be a democracy in a little different terms than they originally meant it, and I'm sure none of them would be happy about that. However, as an adult, I am afraid my hunches about the supernatural must follow the probabilities instead of being conspicuous for running counter to them.

Besides, it's a little harder to brainwash people if you don't set yourself up as some sort of demigod. It's a little harder to get them to accept your abuse as being constructive for something other than your own vainglory, personal porfolio, etc.

Anonymous said...

It's Gestapo Church of God and their cockproud of it!

Ralph said...

on May 3, 2016 at 4:28 PM
Connie Schmidt wrote:-

"A search of their website "donate" page for Pay Pal, shows that the funds are received by one "Jonathan A. Dicen"."

That's very clever Connie. How did you do that?

cheers
ralph.f

Anonymous said...

Discipline in the Philipines.
People it's a democracy now!
I shall return.
nck


March 28 1980

Dateline: Manila
Stanley R. Rader was received by President Marcos of the Philippines
Saturday, March 22. Mr. Rader was invited by the President to attend,
as the special guest, the 83rd Annual Army Day Celebration at the Bonifacio
Army Base at Manila.
He was introduced by the President to the Minister of Defense, the Deputy
Minister of Defense, the Minister of Information, the Deputy Foreign
Minister, the Chief of Staff of the Armed Forces and the Commander of
the Army. All of this was recorded on television and seen by the people
of the Philippines.
After the 2 1/2-hour ceremony and parade had ended, the President and
First Lady personally invited Mr. Rader to accompany them to the Officer's
Club to share a buffet luncheon and to continue their conversation. Upon
Mr. Rader's arrival there, he was engaged in conversation with the President
for more than a quarter of an hour while all the eyes of some 300
guests (including all other ministers of the government, the entire diplomatic
core and other leading members of the government and society of the
Philippines) were watching the President and Mr. Rader. The guests had
formed a large circle around the two of them at a little distance in what
could be described as a large ballroom. Still photographs recorded the
entire event.
Mr. Rader discussed plans for covering the President and the New Society
in the Plain Truth and Quest, and our new cooperative effort with the
Philippine people and the government of the Philippines through their
Minister of Labor and its Manpower Institute. Also discussed were our
hopes to engage in, and assist with, the Philippines'very impressive
Performing Arts Center--spearheaded by the First Lady of the land, Mrs.
Imelda Marcos--with our own world famous Performing Arts program in
Pasadena. Mr. Rader promised the President to return to the Philippines
this Tuesday (March 25) to continue their discussion and to make plans
for the future.
Thus another door has been opened for the Church!
Mr. Rader appeared on local television as a guest Friday morning and
every television station covered the interview on their evening news
programs at 7 and again at 11 on Friday, March 21. The Bulletin, the
leading newspaper, ran a feature story of Mr. Rader's visit on behalf of
the Church, Mr. Armstrong and the Foundation (See below).

nck

Anonymous said...

5.50PM A problem is that ministers do not recognise these rights. Asserting these rights is equivalent to rebuking a fool. Avoiding ministers as much as possible is wise. Isn't it interesting that the concept of rights is taboo in the churches. Ministers pretend that rights don't exist, but they are lying through their teeth. This is because ministers believe that they have all rights, and members have no rights. This is a psychopathic trait.

Anonymous said...

Hmm, if I wanted to start my own church, what name would I give it? How about:
The real church of God
The Unified church of God
The genuine church of God
The true church of God
The original church of God
The Ultimate church of God (borrowing from wrestlers)
The living legend church of God
The undertaker church of God
The Super duper truly real church of God.
Etc.o
I wonder if God feels embarrassed when He reads the names of the hundreds of splinters bearing His name. It's a good thing that He has all that character, cause He certainly needs it.

Ed said...

Gods government? If there is a God there is no "Gods government". I just don't see Gods hand in anything that happens in this world. It seems to me that he doesn't involve himself in human affairs. Is God involved in the U.S. presidential election? Given the crappy choices we have, I don't think so! We are on our own, we are not going to be saved from our own stupidity.

Byker Bob said...

Back in the day, we used to avoid the ministers in much the same way in which people generally try to avoid the scrutinies of the police. Fly below the radar. It helped if you were in a big area with lots of people, like Pasadena. But in smaller areas where they were always trying to get you into activities like Spokesmens' Club, it was impossible to make yourself unknowable. They were going to intrude into your life and make their ridiculous pronouncements, as are chronicled in the current blog entry over at Painful Truth and at ESN.

With the miniscule sizes of typical ACOG congregations these days, it must be extremely difficult to avoid the ministers. You can't simply get lost in the numbers. They apparently even notice if you miss church one week.

BB

Retired Prof said...

Don't be heretical, Ed. Of course god has a hand in everything. He permeates the universe.

The reason you don't see his strong hand from somewhere is that he carefully controls everything to exactly mimic random unguided processes. The universe with god in it is mathematically indistinguishable from one without a god. If he regularly caused decent candidates to win elections and buffoons and psychopaths to lose them, he would tip his hand. For the same reason, he very seldom answers prayers. He can't afford to go over his quota.

Anonymous said...

Heh, was that the Manila event where the coworker claimed "Not a soul was seen leaving until the end", while the venue reports indicated 2/3rds of the attendees left after the first 30 min?

Anonymous said...


“Do not give advice to Minister but you must listen to His advice.”

“You have problems with tithing, overcome it.”


Is the Dutiful Church of God (DCOG) going to have real Ambassador College trained ministers from the old Worldwide Church of God to listen to the advice of, or is it just going to have some more of those new, pop-up, inflated-type, fake “ministers” to listen to the babbling of?

Is the Dutiful Church of God (DCOG) really just all about sending tithes and offerings to another religious entrepreneur who has noticed a business opportunity after watching other false religious leaders live the good life off the donations of their suckers?

After getting a steady stream of financial support for the Work/Play, will things start to change? Will new prophetic understanding come along? Will doctrines be changed? Do you mind if we “wait and see” for a while first before jumping in?

A short drunk by the name of Gerald Flurry came stumbling along and pretended to be following HWA in order to attract followers from the old WCG, but then turned his followers into a bunch of stupid, ignorant, immoral, cut-off-from-their-families, shameful and sinful cowards and runt-worshippers, while little Gerald Irish-danced away with the pot of gold.

A shark-like character by the name of David Pack came swimming along and pretended to be following HWA for a number of years in order to attract followers from the old WCG, but then lied to his followers, robbed them, betrayed them, and left them burned out and destitute, while he swam off yelling and spitting in totally new directions.

A clown by the name of Ronald Weinland came along joking (he could not have been serious) and pretended to be following HWA, but then got into writing fiction, travelling, shopping, and doing a well-deserved 3-1/2 years of prison time. Serves him right for being too greedy to share the ill-gotten gain with greedy accountants and greedy lawyers who could have shown him how to make all the deception and thievery technically honest and legal--the way that so many other lying, thieving, religious con-artists have done.

A quack by the name of Robert Thiel thought he was continuing the COG, but he just got into demons, pagans, and Nigerian scams. The bad “Doctor” cannot heal even himself.

So, again, do you mind if we “wait and see” first?

If you do mind, too bad.

Anonymous said...

I don't think I should join that church.

They might accuse me of insolence when I meet with their ministers and say, "So, you are the doodyheads? Can I give both of you swirlies?"

(Assuming they come in [number] twos.)

Ralph said...

on May 4, 2016 at 2:56 AM
Anonymous wrote:-

"I wonder if God feels embarrassed when He reads the names of the hundreds of splinters bearing His name."

Now there's the rub. God is not a name, it is a title such as "Sir". I believe His original Hebrew name to be Yehovah. So, when these corporate organizations refer to 'God' they are, in fact, referring to their founder such as the church of Pack, the church of Flurry etc. After all, they are the ones at the top, above all others and presently they answer to no one except themselves.

cheers
ralph.f

Ralph said...

on May 3, 2016 at 11:52 PM
I asked of Connie:-

"How did you do that?"

All I could find on their 'Donate' page was:
"This website does not supply ownership information."

cheers
ralph.f

EX-PCG/RCG said...



I clicked on the PayPal logo (like I was going to donate) and the name came up. It's amazing how many ex-ministers of PCG & RCG all think that they are qualified to be a minister of their own newly formed church.

I have been a member of both organizations (and most) of those guys would be the last people I would look to for truth. How could they really be that Biblically literate if they spent the majority (if not all) of their "ministry" with either group? Most of them have been elevated to their highest levels of incompetency.

Monnie said...

"Dutiful COG"---I thought it must be a parody! I should know better by now. Don’t question the minister---does THAT bring back memories! And "we don't worship or idolize HWA"---strains credulity past the breaking point! All those years of condemning Catholics for doing what we did re Herbert---worship & idolize him.

Anonymous said...

Ralf, there is no government or legal body determining the definition of words. That is, the meaning of words is democratically determined by the public over a period of time. Hence the English word God refers to God the father and Christ. Ralf and God Himself can call themselves whatever they please, but it doesn't change the everyday definition. So no, it is not mean Sir or what ever.

Anonymous said...

Another splinter. More like an annoying thorn that imbeds itself somewhere tender and festers until it is either dug out or pops. Each one is oh so sure they are the chosen saviors of what HWA started and they're determined to do a "great work." Well that ship sailed for about fifty years and these little lifeboats will go absolutely nowhere!

Anonymous said...

There goes Ralf with his sacred-name dropping again.

Ralph said...

on May 4, 2016 at 5:59 PM
Anonymous wrote:-

"....there is no government or legal body determining the definition of words. That is, the meaning of words is democratically determined by the public over a period of time...."

With all due respect, I subject myself to a different authority.

"Exo_3:15 And GodH430 saidH559 moreoverH5750 untoH413 Moses,H4872 ThusH3541 shalt thou sayH559 untoH413 the childrenH1121 of Israel,H3478 The LORDH3068 GodH430 of your fathers,H1 the GodH430 of Abraham,H85 the GodH430 of Isaac,H3327 and the GodH430 of Jacob,H3290 hath sentH7971 me untoH413 you: thisH2088 is my nameH8034 for ever,H5769 and thisH2088 is my memorialH2143 unto all generations.H1755 H1755"
"Exo_6:3 And I appearedH7200 untoH413 Abraham,H85 untoH413 Isaac,H3327 and untoH413 Jacob,H3290 by the name of GodH410 Almighty,H7706 but by my nameH8034 JEHOVAHH3068 was I notH3808 knownH3045 to them."
"Exo_33:19 And he said,H559 IH589 will make allH3605 my goodnessH2898 passH5674 beforeH5921 H6440 thee, and I will proclaimH7121 the nameH8034 of the LORDH3068 beforeH6440 thee; and will be graciousH2603 (H853) to whomH834 I will be gracious,H2603 and will shew mercyH7355 (H853) on whomH834 I will shew mercy.H7355"
"Lev_19:12 And ye shall notH3808 swearH7650 by my nameH8034 falsely,H8267 neither shalt thou profaneH2490 (H853) the nameH8034 of thy God:H430 IH589 am the LORD.H3068"
"Lev_22:2 SpeakH1696 untoH413 AaronH175 and toH413 his sons,H1121 that they separate themselvesH5144 from the holy thingsH4480 H6944 of the childrenH1121 of Israel,H3478 and that they profaneH2490 notH3808 (H853) my holyH6944 nameH8034 in those things whichH834 theyH1992 hallowH6942 unto me: IH589 am the LORD.H3068"
If you need any more references you are welcome to search out all 6,516 of them. Good hunting!

Strong's;
H3068


יְהֹוָה
yehôvâh
yeh-ho-vaw'
From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.
Total KJV occurrences: 6521


cheers
ralph.f

ps. "Luk 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God."

Ralph said...

on May 4, 2016 at 1:58 PM
I wrote:-

"All I could find on their 'Donate' page was:
"This website does not supply ownership information."

and admit to being slack!!re: May 4, 2016 at 5:40 PM what Anonymous EX-PCG/RCG wrote was what I didn't do.
After clicking on the PayPal logo, up came the name in question.

cheers
ralph.f

Ralph said...

on May 4, 2016 at 7:45 PM
Anonymous wrote:-

"There goes Ralf with his sacred-name dropping again."

Yes I did, thanks anon! Unlike some others I do want to remember His Name, it's a matter of trust viz.

"Psa 20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God. [H3068]"

cheers
ralph.f

Trust In Jehovah
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,
but against principalities, against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
against spiritual wickedness in high places.” [Eph:6.12]

Sweetblood777 said...

Ralph, have you ever done an indepth study on the name 'Jehovah?' I did, and found to my dismay, that the 'hovah' in Jehovah means wickedness, perverse, etc. The proper name for the Father is Yahweh. His son's name is Yahshua.

For those interested in a good study on this subject you can download and print out the booklet at this URL.

http://www.yrm.org/yourfathersname.htm

Anonymous said...

Ralf, I still don't get it. You rattle off all these scriptures, without stating what your point or conclusion is. Are you afraid to be precise or blunt? Are you keeping your viewpoint vague and implied because you sense that can't defend your position?
What do your scriptures have to do with words being democratically defined. This is a historical fact. How do we communicate if people have one definition, but Ralf has another. Are you aware that different nationalities have their own translation of the bible, and hence use words different to Ralf. Are you aware that the bible wasn't originally written in English?

Anonymous said...

I'm puzzled again. I thought it must be some techical thing I wasn't up on that caused my comments not to appear when I tried to post under my name. I went to anonymous posting, and there they were, so I started to sign my name at the end. Suddenly, my comments no longer appeared. How, come? Seems to me somebody has to be interfering out of a desire to silence me specifically.

Anonymous said...

"With all due respect, I subject myself to a different authority."

Ralph, I can respect that. Freedom is wonderful and dangerous. I believe there is no other way.

DBP

NO2HWA said...

12:55 There is no conspiracy here and I do not delete posts according to who the person commenting is. I will not approve posts if they are totally off topic. When items are posted here that off topic and lead every discussion into "trade" issues and conspiracy theories then I will delete them. Stay on topic and things will be just fine.

Anonymous said...

I'll take your word for it and am glad to hear your assurance. I'm still mystified though.

Anonymous said...


The Restored Church of God founded by David C. Pack supposedly restored the teachings of the Worldwide Church of God as they were at the time of Herbert W. Armstrong's death in January 1986. Then, a strange but all too common thing happened. David Pack began to UNRESTORE those teachings and make up NEW and TOTALLY DIFFERENT teachings.

David Pack can pass himself off as a good guy who is standing up for the truth to those who do not know him personally, but nobody who has ever been around him for any length of time can stand him. Even those who just read and listen from a distance can now see that something has clearly gone very bad in the RCG. The result is splinter groups from the RCG splinter group:

Vigilant Church of God The original guy handed over the website to someone else and walked away. Not exactly the most vigilant behavior.

Abiding Church of God

Dutiful Church of God

Another, and even better, choice is to simply read your Bible for yourself if you are interested in it. If pointless confusion and suffering are your real goal, then go ahead and try the splinters and the splinters of the splinters.

Anonymous said...

On a billboard near you:

Prepare to be damned to the Lake of Fire if you do not pronounce My Name exactly right, you puny humans.

God

Ronco


Ralph said...

on May 5, 2016 at 7:01 AM
Sweetblood777 wrote:-

"Ralph, have you ever done an indepth study on the name 'Jehovah?' I did, and found to my dismay, that the 'hovah' in Jehovah means wickedness, perverse, etc."

I'm sure I have suggested previously that when we put our thoughts into words and text we are simply expressing our own opinions. Such opinions may, or may not, be relevant to the truth. It is up to the listener or reader to decide on that.

In this particular instance I would suppose that you have read text from somewhere, and there are numerous locations,that provides the opinion that you have stated above and you have accepted it.

However a second and opposing opinion can be found RIGHT HERE

Obviously I accept this second opinion as the truth.
In addition to that: some recommended reading--
"Shattering The Conspiracy of Silence" by Nehemia Gordon.
"His Hallowed Name Revealed Again" by Keith E. Johnson. From this second book you can pick up,
"Read and download the entire first chapter and send it to friends!"
AT THIS LINK

chers
ralph.f

cheers
ralph.f

Ralph said...

on May 5, 2016 at 7:23 AM
Anonymous wrote:-

"You rattle off all these scriptures, without stating what your point or conclusion is."

Such as?

and
"Are you afraid to be precise or blunt?"

Not at all. An example?

and
"What do your scriptures have to do with words being democratically defined."

Firstly they are "MY" scriptures simply because I own a copy, not because I wrote them. To answer your comment, as previously noted, I submit myself to an authority I believe to be above that which is "democratically defined."

and
" Are you aware that different nationalities have their own translation of the bible,...."

Yes. If I remember I also have mentioned this knowledge previously.

"Are you aware that the bible wasn't originally written in English?"

Yes.

cheers
ralph.f

Ralph said...

on May 5, 2016 at 7:21 PM
Anonymous wrote:-

"Another, and even better, choice is to simply read your Bible for yourself if you are interested in it."

Such a great idea. Then you can search for others with the same attitude and discuss "the word" as they used to do in the olden days. eg.

"Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read."

Allowing some 'poetic license' to paraphrase:-
"Luk 4:16 And WE came to gether on Skype: and, as OUR custom was, went into the Internet on the sabbath day, and keyed in our thoughts and ideas to share with others.

cheers
ralph.f

Ralph said...

and thereby hangs a tale, seeing as Skype provides visual exchange.

cheers
ralph.f

Anonymous said...

Ralf, as far as I'm concerned, you just threw my questions back at me, without answering them. God calls Himself by many different names, reflecting His many great traits. However this does not make it wrong for people to use the word 'God.'
Why spend your time in issues that have no relevance to everyday life? As an example of something relevant, are you aware that philosophically, the WCGs splinters are rationalists. This means that they believe in concepts (eg scriptures) but not percepts (the five senses). They believe in ideas, but ignore the evidence of the five senses. Teaching people to ignore their five senses makes it so much easier to con people Ponder that!

Anonymous said...

Oh boy, here comes Sweetblood, probably our foremost "sacred names" enthusiast.

Anonymous said...

NO2HWA said...

"...I will not approve posts if they are totally off topic. When items are posted here that off topic and lead every discussion into "trade" issues and conspiracy theories..."

That covers 'TradingGuy' and 'nck', and I also wonder what description would cover Ralph.
Ralph seems to dance around a bit, with agendas varying from insistence on Old Testament teachings, to Sacred Name teachings, to defending Herbert W Armstrong's teachings, etc.

Ralph said...

on May 6, 2016 at 7:58 AM
anonymous wrote:-

"....from insistence on Old Testament teachings,...."

when they are in alignment with Matt 5.

"....to Sacred Name teachings,...."

more than well covered in previous comments.

"....to defending Herbert W Armstrong's teachings, etc."

I defend those teachings when they are direct from scripture and not 'flavored' with his personal interpretations.

cheers
ralph.f

Ralph said...

on May 6, 2016 at 1:36 AM
anonymous wrote:-

"God calls Himself by many different names, reflecting His many great traits. However this does not make it wrong for people to use the word 'God.' "

I agree, it does not make it 'wrong' for people to use the word 'God'. I don't think I ever said so although you may have taken whatever I said as an implication. My comment is simply that I understand 'God' uses His name Yehovah in scripture more than any other. I also believe He allows me to do the same.

also
"Why spend your time in issues that have no relevance to everyday life?"

All of my comments are supported by a name and photograph. If you disdain my comments, there is a simple answer:- Don't read them.

cheers
ralph.f

Ralph said...

on May 6, 2016 at 1:01 AM
I wrote:-

"and thereby hangs a tale, seeing as Skype provides visual exchange."
relative to my previous post on May 5, 2016 at 11:06 PM.

It was a thought that came to mind that has developed into an idea. The idea is to offer a free invitation to those readers and contributors to this blog who find themselves still in a COG rut and who want 'out', but who still want to 'chat' (fellowship) with other(s) of like mind. As a "freelance Christian', not associated with ANY Corporate Religious Group such are invited to Skype along to ralph.ford35 if you want.
Skype to Skype is FREE so don't send any money. In any case, to where would you send it? LOL
The only thing I would ask is that you keep in mind the time difference between your location and that of mine in Melbourne, Australia.
eg. 2PM Seattle WA time equates to 7PM Melbourne time while
2PM Dallas TX time equates to 5AM Melbourne time. (when I'm usually still in bed, asleep)
If you haven't already bookmarked it time differences can be found at the World Clock here

If you do take up my invitation all I ask is that you use some identification such as 'ex LCG' or ex RCG' so that I don't automatically decline your contact.

cheers
ralph.f

Anonymous said...

12.09PM. Ralf, there you go again, not answering my question. My point is, you are an old man and you should be spending your few remaining years in the most productive way possible. This names thingy, is a waste of time. I by contrast, am reading several good books, most on understanding and dealing with difficult people. I have also started reading "the DIM hypothesis" by Leonard Peikoff. I have read, and intend to re read several books on yachting. I've already done two hands on yachting courses.
There are many better ways of spending your remaining time.

Anonymous said...

For many years Mr. Pack taught exactly what the WCG did , and what he learned from AC. He now claims to have gained "understanding" and is teaching a first dominion is coming before the tribulation. A temple will be built in Jerusalem to which Christ will return, and the saints will rule with Him in human form. Satan will be bound in Heaven, until he is loosed for a little season which will usher in the great tribulation. Then everything will be back to the way it was taught in WCG, trumpets, seals, etc.

Ralph said...

on May 6, 2016 at 1:22 PM
anonymous wrote:-

"....there you go again, not answering my question."
and
".... you are an old man...."

Yes, I certainly am an older man and will use that as an excuse to ask-"What was your question again?" I've forgotten.

also
".... and you should be spending your few remaining years in the most productive way possible."

I couldn't agree more. I do that by spending a lot of my time converting analogue VHS, camera and other magnetic tapes together with 8mm movie film into digital form, mostly DVD's and the occasional USB stick. I find this to be most productive and greatly enjoyable at the same time. I get to feel that I am/was involved in the lives of other families without being obtrusive. It sure keeps the OLD grey cells alive and active. I suppose reading would do the same for some but I find I have a very short attention span in that area.

cheers
ralph.f

Anonymous said...

May 6, 2016 at 1:22 PM
"12.09PM. Ralf, there you go again, not answering my question. My point is, you are an old man and you should be spending your few remaining years in the most productive way possible. This names thingy, is a waste of time."

Ohh lordy, lordy, the lord of lords!

Anonymous said...

May 6, 2016 at 1:36 AM
This means that they believe in concepts (eg scriptures) but not percepts (the five senses). They believe in ideas, but ignore the evidence of the five senses. Teaching people to ignore their five senses makes it so much easier to con people Ponder that!

wut

Retired Prof said...

Anon at 1:22 PM, it alarms me that you think old men like Ralph and me should do productive things. When we got old, we acquired the privilege to fritter away our waning years writing irate letters to the editor, or nowadays, making smartass comments on blog forums. Mining ore, raising crops, building houses, assembling automobiles--all those productive enterprises are for the able-bodied and alert. Those of us whose muscles tremble, whose vision fogs over, and whose minds wander do far less damage doddering on the sidelines than we would in the thick of productive enterprises.

Anonymous said...

"The more grey hairs you've earned, the greater is you're entitlement for fun."

Anonymous said...

I heard Pack has lost another minister and brethren out West. Has anyone confirmed/ heard about this?

Anonymous said...

5.52PM if you visit the mid weekly yachting race that many clubs have, you will find that most of the boat owners and participates are white haired.

Anonymous said...

Ralph said, "... I[m] spending a lot of my time converting analogue VHS, camera and other magnetic tapes together with 8mm movie film into digital form, mostly DVD's and the occasional USB stick. I find this to be most productive and greatly enjoyable at the same time. I get to feel that I am/was involved in the lives of other families..."

I hope some of that is about 'Preserving the Words'(if I may suggest a title) that HWA spoke.
Please, when you're done and for our edification, please provide us with your website wherein you've preserved his Truths and his words. Our God seems to be calling out for a website containing His Truths that God gave to us through HWA.

Anonymous said...

May 7, 2016 at 9:51 AM

Has God heard of the yellow pages?
Banned! 2.0, here we go!

Then again, maybe the Universe is God's homepage.

Anonymous said...

5.01 pm, Interesting video, but what is your point? How about doing the heavy lifting, and telling us your conclusion.

Ralph said...

on May 7, 2016 at 9:51 AM
anonymous wrote:-

"I hope some of that is about 'Preserving the Words'(if I may suggest a title) that HWA spoke."

No, it is not. Why would you so hope?

also:
"Please, when you're done and for our edification, please provide us with your website...."

I don't have a website. Why would I need one?
The work that I do is mainly for other families who enjoy reliving earlier happy family memories. In such situations it is others who also enjoy the work that I do.
I don't understand your attitude. It doesn't seem to be one of brotherly love!

cheers
ralph.f

Ralph said...

FWIW I thought I would try this:
on May 7, 2016 at 8:24 PM

I wrote "I don't have a website. Why would I need one?"
However I can offer a sample of the work I do through 'PhotoBucket' and here it is, I hope. A snapshot of data from a VHS tape that I transferred to a DVD. I don't know the persons involved but I'm sure they enjoyed seeing the graphics again.

VOILA!!

cheers
ralph.f
Skype at ralph.ford35

ps. Obviously, at the age of 80, I am not intimidated by IT. I embrace it as a very useful tool.

Anonymous said...

"How about doing the heavy lifting, and telling us your conclusion."
My name is not clif. Do your own homework.

Anonymous said...

"This means that they believe in concepts (eg scriptures) but not percepts (the five senses). They believe in ideas, but ignore the evidence of the five senses. Teaching people to ignore their five senses makes it so much easier to con people Ponder that!"

Our nervous system is not a percept. It is the apparatus for perceiving. Also, our nervous system is the instrument which reads all other instruments. It is impossible for us to ignore the 5 senses. If you want to ignore the 5 senses, then you will have to die. So, as you were saying, if the conman tries to teach others to ignore their nervous system who, which you stated, are already ignoring the 5 senses, then it would be MUCH HARDER for him or anybody else to get through to them.

DBP

Retired Prof said...

DBP, you got off track by isolating the commenter's first sentence from the clearer reiteration of the same idea in the second. You're right, in a sense; the first sentence would be more to the point if it read, "This means that they believe in concepts (e.g., those expressed in scriptures) but not percepts (evidence received by the five senses)." However, since the second sentence makes this meaning clear, you have created a straw man and knocked that over instead of the idea the original writer was conveying.

The original point is quite valid. Let me put it differently: If god described creation one way, but built it another way, that means either the description or creation itself is misleading.

Preachers who are able to persuade followers that scripture is the truth and the universe is a lie can get by with a lot more chicanery than scientists who describe things according to close observations of the way they actually work.

Anonymous said...

I was going to ask if he meant precept instead of percept, but he was being a dick. I was waiting and hoping for the OP to rephrase his message in a more coherent fashion. Lord knows that I can't tell him what he meant.

I guess we care to wait for the OP to speak for himself?

DBP

Anonymous said...

Retired Prof:"...you have created a straw man and knocked that over instead of the idea the original writer was conveying."

He was not clear and I was letting him know that. No strawman, but a clown knocking on lost performative's door.

"They believe in ideas, but ignore the evidence of[from?] the five senses."

They formed those ideas with the very same nervous system. They ignore YOUR evidence of[from?] YOUR nervous system. Do you ignore THEIR evidence that they obtained through THEIR nervous system?
How are they ignoring YOUR evidence? Are you curious as to HOW they do this? That missing piece of information is valuable.

DBP

Ralph said...

Just checking -

a CD from a vinyl disc I did for a friend.

and it worked. Vunderbar!! Life continues to be one big learning curve. Next I'll try for some video.

cheers
ralph.f

Anonymous said...

How wonderful the internet is!
Can you imagine retirement without this technology?
Perish the thought!

Anonymous said...

Let me clarify what I thought self evident. Concepts (an integration of units having the same fundaments characteristics, or more commonly called categories) have a tree like hierarchical structure. At the bottom of the structure is the evidence of the five senses. What this means is that high level concepts such as morality, can be verified by working down the concept tree, to the evidence of the five senses. Christ affirmed this when He said 'you shall know them by their fruits.' Fruits is what we have perceive with our senses. That is, what you observe and hear, will prove the foolishness of many church teachings. Christ many times pointed to the evidence of the five senses, eg, 'if the sky is red, fair weather is coming.' As I said, the churches want people to ignore what they have experienced, what they have observed, and what they have heard. This makes it easier for church leaders to deceive people. Is this clear enough?

Cheers TradingGuy

Anonymous said...

TradingGuy:".. the evidence of the five senses."

Do you mean information that comes through one or all of the senses(nervous system)?

We can't verify absolute truth. They way you use the phrase "the five senses" leads to confusion.
As an example: You said, "That is, what you observe and hear, will prove the foolishness of many church teachings." That may be true for you, but not everybody else. By using their own "five senses", they have received and filtered information that may be contrary to your evidence that came from YOUR "five senses". So, they are not ignoring "the five senses", they are ignoring YOUR evidence that came through YOUR "five senses". You seem to keep presenting and generalizing "the five senses" and its physical properties, rather than respecting and responding to the human who believes differently from you.

DBP

Anonymous said...

"This makes it easier for church leaders to deceive people. Is this clear enough?"

It is clear that you like using the same tactics! Christ doesn't affirm your B.S.!

Anonymous said...


“The Dutiful Church of God or Gestapo Church of God...You Decide”


These people who self-appointed themselves teach the following major DUTIES:

It is THEIR DUTY to do all the talking.
It is YOUR DUTY to listen to and believe whatever they tell you.

It is YOUR DUTY to hand over your money to them.
It is THEIR DUTY to get their hands on your money.

I just felt it was MY DUTY to dutifully warn everyone about these important details.


Anonymous said...

If someone points out that you are shooting yourself in the foot or you happen to be unintentionally spreading some doody yourself, take the advice, rather than ignore it.
Everybody can win :)

Cheers,
I come in peace