Sunday, May 29, 2016

UCG Women: Be Seen, Don't Preach, Be Silent and Above All Don't Write In Case A Man Reads Your Article



It's hard  believe in 2016 that UCG still can't get its act together in regards to women writing for church publications.  The patriarchal hierarchy of UCG seems miffed that women are writing better than they are.  It continues to be such a sore spot that it had to be brought up AGAIN by whiney little men in the church.

From the latest Council of Elders Report:

Role of Women in Media—Rex Sexton 
Rex Sexton, the chair of the Media and Communications Committee (MCC), led the discussion on the role of women authors in media publications. The discussion began on March 1 and is continuing as a discussion with the Council to see if there is anything to be remanded to the MCC or not. The genesis of this discussion was raised by someone on the committee during a standard editorial review.
Mr. Sexton began by mentioning the importance of God’s love and God’s laws. God’s laws are to guide in making correct judgments.
Since when?
There is a form letter response that the home office has been operating from for over 15 years, and the discussion today was to find out if further official review was warranted and if it would possibly be remanded to the committee for recommendations, including the possibility of a policy statement. There was much discussion from the media department to give their input and, there was discussion from the Council as well.
Scott Ashley, as a key member of the media department, explained his review process for many years and shared a letter written by one of our women contributors regarding why and how she wrote.
Why do women have to write letters to DEFEND why and how they wrote something?  Has any man in UCG ever had to do that????
There was discussion regarding the possible “blurring” of what is doctrinal and what is “Christian living” type of articles and appreciating the fine line that needs to be considered by reviewers in regards to editorial contributions submitted by women.
Silly women!  How dare you "blur the line" between doctrine and Christian living!  How theological immature and bankrupt that kind of reasoning is, but that is what UCG does all the time.
Robin Webber thanked everyone for their comments. His personal thought was to avoid a policy at this time. We currently have a form letter that is in place, and we have a structure that has oversight in the standard review process, which includes the Council at this time. Mr. Webber emphasized placing trust and confidence in the administration and not to create a policy at this time.
Bill Bradford commented that guidelines were mentioned, but he isn’t sure that those guidelines are understood. The Council should be able to create a policy based on God’s laws, and it can be done if we need it done in the future.
The Council settled for simply the discussion, and no formal action was rendered beyond the ongoing editorial review with every article that is submitted by everyone, whether man or woman.
Rex Sexton thanked everyone for their discussions and input. This discussion is very valuable to clarify for everyone on the editorial team what guidelines we are following and the process when questions come up.
Mr. Webber felt that both discussions on this subject were useful in moving forward towards adhering to biblical principles as well as appreciating the contributions of women.
The Council went into scheduled executive session to discuss ordinations for about an hour.

52 comments:

Anonymous said...

As yes, those evil, easily deceived and deluded females are always trying to pull the wool over the eyes of oh so wise men. That bullshit permeates all the Abrahamic, iron-age-spawned religions. Yes, there is a place for women, and they're often wiser and more qualified leaders than many men. I'm glad I've left that antiquated thinking far behind me, along with any and all Abrahamic nonsense.

Anonymous said...

I presume most of the ministers do not know how to type. So if a female secretary does the typing and editing does this count as a female article.

Byker Bob said...

Just so these neanderthals realize that is the submissives who really are in control! A little woman can instantly bring a great big man to his knees!

BB

Martha said...

I would comment, but apparently I am not qualified to do so.

DennisCDiehl said...

These guys are going to have to purge "role" from their vocab if they are ever to grow up and let the big girls play too.

Byker Bob said...

HWA said it, they believe it, and for them at least, that settles it. Yet another piece of the damaged continuing mindset learned in that mythical and magical kingdom, a place which we shall call "Ambassadena".

BB

Anonymous said...

The Bible is plain with respect to female roles in the family, in the church, and in society. They are created to be helpmates, not leaders of men.
The nation of Israel are on the verge of collapse, and "children" and "babes" have been given by God as a curse to speed the decline.

No, there is no such thing as "big girls". Just fat, ugly chicks that no real men want to be around. Plenty of those in America today.

Anonymous said...

as long as she writes under the authority of a man, and he checks her work before publication, what's the problem?

Anonymous said...

May 29, 2016 at 8:28 PM

forever alone

Anonymous said...

Even when they had the female equivalent of spokesmans club in the old days, they never allowed women to assess other women, as is the case in mens club. The reason is that women proved too critical and 'catty' (claw, claw, hiss, hiss).
Women have their limitations.
Just wondering, do they still have spokesmans club in the various splinters?

Byker Bob said...

Or, 8:28, rather than that being a permanent statement about the order of things for all eternity, that could have been cultural, historic information for that particular dispensation, the world in its state of development at that point in time. Surely, you can't be suggesting that an educated woman of today with a 150 IQ should behave in a manner consistent with a time in history when women were considered to be mere chattel in cultures all around the world, and were artficially prevented from becoming educated.

When the Bible says that God does not change, it is speaking of His character. It does not mean that He is restricted from adjusting the information He shares, making it specific and relevant to His children at the same rate as the human race accumulates experience, education, and further development.

This woman thing in the ACOGs is every bit as ignorant as was forbidding doctors and medical science because of what was written in the OT condemning the shamans and witch doctors who were actually teachers of paganism during that point in history. That anti medicine doctrine was a perfect example of what it means to be a "religious fool". People died needlessly because of it.

Who are these "nations of Israel" you mention? Sounds as if you still believe in all of the extrabiblical British Israel superstition.
How's that 40 year overdue prophecy thing working out for you? Had a good life? Been able to develop your talents?

BB

Anonymous said...

No

Anonymous said...

BB what will you say and write here when the 10 nation United States of Europe bursts on the world scene?

Ralph said...

on May 30, 2016 at 1:18 AM
Byker Bob wrote:-

"When the Bible says that God does not change, it is speaking of His character."

Hear, hear! Something we should all emulate.

also:
"Who are these "nations of Israel" you mention?"

Probably the nations such as Britain, the USA - that "company of nations", France, Dans Mark, oops Denmark, etc. You know them all BB.

also:
"How's that 40 year overdue prophecy thing working out for you?"

Which one is that? My memory banks aren't what they used to be. LOL

cheers
ralph.f

Byker Bob said...

9:01, according to the pattern that we lived our lives by, that ten nation thing was supposed to come together prior to 1972. That year, along with 1975 were what was presented in the event horizon outline of the day

There have always been some vague similarities between world events and the HWA prophecy mold. But, these things have been very much subject to perspective and interpretation. Those involved in spreading the ACOG gospel have indulged in cherry-picking news events, and have attempted to fan certain flames, hoping that they would catch. But, they never do. Not as one cohesive set of circumstances. They appear to, and then the coals go out, and something else happens. During WWII, HWA was preaching that Hitler, then Mussolini were the beast.

HWA was a "messenger" who appeared to be very much out of his time element. What good does a warning do, if it isn't issued at least somewhat close to the actual event? The people who initially responded to his message and actually funded it are either dead now, or are octagenarians. Their children range approximately from age 50 to age 70. The message today is either invisible, or has long since passed from the consciousness of the public.

A case has been made that the 10 nations wouldn't even come from Europe, based on a passage in the Psalms that includes Middle Eastern nations surrounding Israel as being Israel's classic enemies. Considering the rise of radical Islam, that makes much better sense than theories about Catholic Christians, and Germans who would need a race change operation to even remotely resemble Assyrians. I mean, the British royal family is actually German. Speaking of politicians, the fact that we have a multi-ethnic president is not an example of foreigners oppressing us, and neither are the activities of minorities who lobby for equal protection of the law, and their constitutional rights.

Many mainstream Christians are concerned with what they call the New World Order. Those are the flames being fanned by them, and they use the same methodology as has Armstrongism to interpret the news, and to support their theories.

I can only speak hypothetically of what my reaction to the emergence of ten nations might be. That could happen and not be related in any way to Armstrongism. Also, a new world order, if that ends up being the emerging scenario, could simply be for the purpose of the global management of resources and problems. If you rely on traditional Jewish timelines, you realize that we have over 200 years yet until absolute year 6,000 if indeed that theory is even valid.
Bottom line is that if ten nations were ever to come together, it most likely would not happen during my life time. My personal tribulation at the hands of the WCG ended in 1975. Overall, it's been a pretty good life since then.

BB

NJ person said...

The word for helpmeet in Hebrew is Ezer knegdo.
The church has long favored translating ezer as helper but, it does not mean that.
Ezer is a strong rescuer or someone strong to save you.
Whenever ezer is used in connection with God it means strength and power.
As I said before, the language used in the instance of Cain..sin waits at your door, is similar to the linguistic meaning of 'he will rule over you", meaning, if I don't become your Ruler from on high, that guy is lying in wait at your door and it will be a curse to you.
And indeed male domination has been a curse. It was not a blessing for Eve or Chava in the Hebrew.
Sixteen times in the bible, Ezer refers to God as a “helper” when a savior or protector is needed against an enemy.
Ezer is used twenty four times in the Old Testament. Only twice does it refer to Eve. Sixteen times it refers to God as a “helper” when a savior or protector is needed against an enemy. For example, Exodus 18:4 states “…for the God of my father, [was] mine ezer and delivered me from the sword of Pharaoh.” In this case, the LORD killed Pharaoh. Again in Deuteronomy 33:7 ezer is used: “Hear, O LORD, the cry of Judah…be his ezer against his foes.” The writer is beseeching the LORD to come through with might and power. Deuteronomy 33:29 reads “…the LORD…is your shield and ezer and your glorious sword. Your enemies cower before you.” In each of these examples, the word is translated as “helper,” not as “help meet.” Why then did the King James translators use the word “help meet” in Genesis 2:18 when referring to Eve? Could it be that they allowed their own gender bias to creep into their translations?
From another source:"When Ezer is examined in the ancient Hebrew a fascinating image appears. The ancient Hebrew letters were pictures that slowly evolved into the modern Hebrew letters used today. The ancient picture letters used for ezer were an eye, a man and a weapon. In other words, an ezer is a revealer of man’s enemy. "

Summarizing what we know about ezer, and by inference, women, reveals that based on the Scriptures, God made Eve to be Adam’s protector in a similar fashion as God was Israel’s protector.
Women often warn men of bad friends, influences, etc.

I can get more sources for this if you like. But in Orthodox Judaism the Hebrew interpretations of Ezer knegdo are well known.

I don't think we know Paul's reasoning for women keeping silent but I suspect it had to do with his current day problems and customs. In Orthodoxy which prevailed then, women sat on one side in the ezras nashim section and men in the other section. Never together and often with a barrier called a mechitza between them. Women who were at home would naturally want to talk to one another and fellowship. Normally women did not go to the synagogue and still today in haredi circles which you would call ultra orthodox but, we call 'black hat" women rarely attend shul or synagogue.

Byker Bob said...

One more thing. What if HWA's British Israel-based apocalypse suddenly began to unfold before our very eyes, in living color? With 600 splinters, and the Living Room Church of God, good luck, if you were so-inclined, in finding the right group, and that is being extremely generous in assuming that such a group even exists!

BB

Anonymous said...

Actually, the poster said "nation of Israel", with the plural verb attached to it. A typo? Or poor grammar?

Anonymous said...

What will you say and write here when it doesn't?

RSK said...

Even then, would it validate HWAs rather-fluid hypothesis? Only a fool would ignore the historical/cultural ties between the European nations and claim they would never do anything together again in the history of mankind. The fact that they have, to some degree, done so in the past couple of decades does not particularly validate Armstrongism's outlook. You would need to fulfill far more detailed criteria to do so.

Ralph said...

on May 30, 2016 at 11:42 AM
Byker Bob wrote:-

".... in finding the right group,...."

Why would one need to find a group? Such a thing I have yet to do.
Well, as you said, "if you were so-inclined."

cheers
ralph.f

Anonymous said...

http://www.seeker.com/dna-captured-from-2500-year-old-phoenician-1819978957.html

Anonymous said...

BB the number of splinters is academic, since a Christian is one who follows Christ rather than some corporate entity. The Catholics burned bible translator William Tyndale over this point. The Armstrong ten nations is very specific, 5 nations from eastern Europe and 5 from western Europe, held together with a miracle performing Pope. It overruns most of the middle east, then attacks the Anglo Saxons.
At any rate, the holy spirit has confirmed the viewpoint, so Herbert Balsam Armstrong had this part right.

11.45AM I only wish you were right. I mentioned to God in prayer that I had developed a lot of character over the years. The holy spirit immediately put the thought into my mind that 'in that case you can go into the tribulation.' Silly me, I should have kept my mouth shut. So you see, the tribulation is real, and cannot be far away, since I am a old. In my old age they won't be able to get much work from me. Maybe the captors will simply starve me to death. LoL.

Byker Bob said...

There is no right group, and Herbie's British Israel-based apocalypse isn't going to happen. God was never with the WCG, that was all an illusion.

What I was attempting to do was to raise some logical questions to perhaps stimulate spme peoples' thinking. However, I understand that there are people out there who will always love their "apostle" and his tribulation, although it is now 40 years past due. As for old folks, Petra would probably kill them just as effectively as the bogi-Assyrians.

BB

Martha said...

I'm not sure which direction the anonymous 4:03 poster is going with his link, supporting or denying British Israelism. At first glance, I don't suppose that European DNA in a Phoenician would be as compelling an example of BI as Phoenician DNA in a European.

At any rate, researchers said that the man appeared to be from a rare, ancient haplogroup from the Iberian peninsula. Almost no examples exist today, but the closest modern variant is found in Portugal. These guys, whoever they were, really aren't still around today and therefore can't be playing a substantial role in "end-time Bible prophecy."

To my knowledge, Spain and Portugal never really figured much into BI. In fact, Dr. Bob claims these ancient Iberian races never contributed much and certainly weren't related to the Celtic Gauls (the alleged "Israelite" ancestors of the French people).


Of course, I'm female, so all this conjecture is suspect.

Anonymous said...

Bob, Bob, we love no apostle or tribulation. We love instead God and His inspired scriptures. Please, no straw man accusations.

Anonymous said...

Hi Martha,

Just for your information.
Spain figured very prominently in BI.

Northern Spain is Celtic. (bagpipes and all)
TeaTephi (and her party) were supposed to have travelled from Spain to Ireland.

(In any case if there is any truth to BI as in myth being an echo of history, then these people must have been brought by phoenician ships since the phoenicians were all over the place from Ireland, to Sweden, to Spain etc)

In the GTA church a USBinprophecy booklet was produced in the eighties it figured the "Ebrews" having named the river Ebro in Spain. (nonsense of course but nonetheless, there you have it Spain.

In BI theory I believe only the Benjamites and Rubenites were supposed to constitute the french gauls. But I have to look up Dibar a Partyman's booklet for that "info."
They were supposed to have travelled through Greece as Spartans I believe. Therefore corroborating the myth that the Spartans were not ancient Greek but came from "Troy" (or the Levant.

Apart from Hoehian mythology I believe "Holy Grail, Holy blood" speaks about the french being "israelite" "with jewish kings" . This myth is not exclusively Anglo Saxon.


nck





Anonymous said...

"Also, a new world order, if that ends up being the emerging scenario, could simply be for the purpose of the global management of resources and problems."


Could it be possible that HWA was a "mercury" the messenger for the New World Order?
He referred to himself as right that, "a messenger"/apostle.
Mercury is associated with both "a messenger" and "trade" . (Trade being the "unseen hand" of economic theory.)

HWA was merely the postman for those ushuring in the New World Order if you really start investigating the organisations and people he associated with since the 1920's starting with Henry Ford and the Chicago Trade. Selected for his excellent communication skills, exactly the skills for a messenger.

nck

Byker Bob said...

No, nck, HWA could not. He taught that the new world order would be controlled by a revival of the Roman Empire headed up by the beast and the false prophet. That he did this while also allegedly indulging in world diplomacy, as a messenger of peace, preaching a message in which a supposedly encrypted gospel message was embedded was duplicitious to say the least. That he bragged to us that some had nominated him for a Nobel Peace Prize is most certainly indicative of the spirit which drove him, his ego.

By the way, I've grown curious about your last initial. You wouldn't happen to be one of the Kitchen clan, making a secular-looking attempt to clean up HWA's image and legacy, would you?

BB

Byker Bob said...

7:18, in a moment of honesty sometime, ask yourself what your life and beliefs would be like if you had never heard of, or been influenced by the teachings of HWA. What if you had only studied the Bible, and the teachings of Jesus Christ, and were totally oblivious to all of the extrabiblical theories HWA injected into his theology. But, I know. You don't follow a man. ;-)

BB

Anonymous said...

BB

The 3 initials allude to old nick (advocate of the devil) and some other things that coincide with my identity. I have acknowledged most of which he is acccused so I would not call that an attempt to whitewash.

To me you come across as very technical and litteral.
You write the word "supposedly" before everything that has an explanation and meaning in the secular world. It only becomes "supposedly" when you are still a believer that everything Hwa said had to be true in the litteral sense.

-so armstrongites like yourself read "supposed" diplomacy as a coded gospel message
-whereas I just accept the fact of hundreds of dinners with all together hundreds of real diplomats meeting in settings before the internet or faxmachine even

Your description of the ego to me is just another indication it was not a religious enterprise at all. But you still seem to believe so.

and the list goes on and on and on

You believe in a "supposed" world tomorrow that was supposed to come.
I accept the fact of a soon coming world order where we are fed by bayer monsanto and act like non warring consumers steered by the intelligence in the cloud. (a word of peace and order)

You propose "a beast" and a false prophet.
I propose that people or organisations who would fit this role will call themselves differently.

Some 10 years ago I would laugh and wet my pants if anyone would ever suggest implanting a chip as a means for me to trade or suggest a mark of the beast type of implant.
I would howl that those would be stupid armstrongite theory.

Today I just invested many dollars in just that technology. To keep us safe, healthy and wise.

It is coming EXACTLY as hwa concocted. Only in a secular way.
So no, not a Kitchen, but a Cook perhaps to some. I don't care.

I'm investing heavily in the future as I was taught and is unfolding in a major secular way, (trend funds clean water, clean energy, digital communication, security, robotics, biotech) so that at least I can be "King or Priest" in that future.

And NO, hwa has no legacy at all. I said he was merely a postman a messenger for those who wanted exact that message out. That this world and man cannot survive as a species unless we yield to "the unseen hand" of the economy and sociology (look that up in your nearest university) that forces man to save its environment and produce peace as one world.

And no Putin cannot stop that. Russia was a fairly good investment for the past 4 quarters.

nck









Anonymous said...

btw

Again. Don't take it literal when I say you believe this or that.

I am just saying when one believes that everything should have come to pass as HWA said, then I can safely label such person as an Armstrongite.

My claim is not an attempt to whitewash. My claim is that I see it happening 8 billion relatively healthy humans, fed and living in peace.
Perhaps not living a life of freedom in the American sense of the word.

But hey, freedom, that was never what the messenger of "the Gods" promised.

nck

Byker Bob said...

Well, I'm just going to make one correction. I do not believe that everything that HWA forecast should have come to pass. I use that as the basic criteria for whether he was "of God" or concocted it all himself. So, modifying your statement to reflect the truth, I believe that if HWA were "God's Apostle", or "the end time Elijah" everything that he had forecast would have come to pass on the timeline which he provided. It didn't, so he wasn't. End of story.

BTW, if you run across any A.I. chips that can be interfaced with the human brain, to make someone able to play guitar like Stevie Ray Vaughan, Eric Clapton, Jimmie Page, or Ritchie Blackmore, let me know.

And, yeah. I'm a techie.

BB

Martha said...

Oh, that's right, good old TeaTephi. How could I have forgotten about her? Bless her heart.

If TeaTephi (in theory) was Israelite/Celtic and brought the Celt/Israelite DNA to Ireland, she would have Celt/Israelite DNA, not DNA from ancient Iberian tribes, right?

It stands to reason that mutts like me could have any number of DNA strains. No one in antiquity was preventing mutt ancestors from shipping them around, intermarrying or even from sleeping with their slaves. But one would think royal bloodlines would be a little more well preserved.

Anonymous said...

BB, in a moment of honesty?? I try to be honest with myself all the time, since seeing the world accurately is in my rational self interest. My passion is reading. I read from many different sources, and have learned something from all of them, including Herbie. I do not blindly believe what I read, but rather look for confirmation from a variety of sources such as my experiences and human drives and biases. In fact, rarely do I 100% agree with any book or article. My belief is that Herbie is much like OT Balaam. He was evil, but God did use him. The United States of Europe in there in my bible, five nations from the former eastern leg of the Roman empire, and five from the west. I've noticed that some tele evangelists from other denominations teach this as well. More fundamentally, something you and others keep ignoring, is that God is prayer answering God. He communicates to individuals, not just to church leaders, as these splinters deceitfully claim. God can confirm, or express disagreement with these supposed ten nations and coming tribulation.

Byker Bob said...

Yeah. Dr. David Jeremiah teaches it. I have his book "What in the World is Going On?"

However, if you think that God is confirming to you through your personal prayers that there will be 5 eastern European nations, and 5 western European nations held together by a miracle performing Pope, then you should be setting up your own ACOG and declaring yourself a prophet like some other people we know. I never met another person who received such confirmations from God. Most pray (as I do daily) and then in retrospect see the hand of God in the way circumstances were worked out.

One of the obstacles to this hypothetical ten nation union being Europe was the Cold War. That has gradually changed, and we've seen Germany reunified, but the Russians still hold some sway over some of eastern Europe. The biggest obstacle now is the schism between the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, and the Roman Catholic Church, both of which have their roots in St. Paul's gentile churches. Contrary to what we were taught, Simon Magus did not start these churches. Read the works of the Ante Nicene fathers! Some of the original bishops were personally trained by the early apostles after persecution caused them to flee Jerusalem. There is an historic chain, and it is nothing at all like the "True History of the True Church" which was simply creative fiction. The Catholic Church "splinters" would have to reunite under the miracle-performing pope.

Also, when you study, don't "read to confirm". Instead, read primary sources, and follow the evidentiary trail. I realize that we were schooled differently in WCG, but the way to really get at truth is by following the evidentiary trail, and applying the scientific method. Don't be afraid of reaching your own conclusions, even though they may differ with the approved ones.

There are other empires that the ten nations could have been part of. Did you know that the Ottoman Empire nations, as an example, allied with Germany during World War I? HWA always concentrated on the Roman Empire, and as a Hislop-influenced anti-Catholic, assumed that the Catholic Church was the whore of Babylon. Babylon is located in Iraq, which was part of the Ottoman Empire. Iraq was the center of the Islamic "Golden Age" Isn't it interesting that we are seeing such world-changing activity not from the Catholics, but from the Muslims?

BB

Anonymous said...

BB,

The 2nd clip would probably more to your taste. Don't play that in the office.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8WJu6MNfSg

www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0DyYLLf3m8



Martha

As BB said. not much in Armstrongism fits the scientific time frame. I do consider myth an echo of the past though. And of course all mankind travelled along the African rift through the Middle East at one time.

www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3377264/Irish-people-descendants-farmers-MIDDLE-EAST-Ancient-Celtic-DNA-shows-agriculture-caused-wave-immigrants-Ireland.html


BB,

Ik like that expose of the Ottoman Empire, which in land holdings was the successor to the Eastern Roman Empire although Russia (Kiev) was the legal inheritor of the Eastern Roman Empire.

The word "nations" is an interpretation of course. We can only find the number 10 in the Apocalypse. Any interpretation would do. (10 nations, 10 clusters of nations, 10 blocs (asean, eu, nafta etc etc) I don't care as long as the prophecies of Rodney King come true. "People can't we just all get along."

nck

Anonymous said...

I've noticed 'Tea Tephi' mentioned a few times.

She is a legendary character in British Israelite literature from the 1800's and early 1900's. (The type of literature that gave Herbie a "holy spirit herbie boner")

Not surprisingly, Herman Hoeh picked up on this legend, too- although it's only legend.

Would you believe that some of the characters in the Bible are only legend, too?

Connie Schmidt said...

Where can I buy some of that Tea Tephi ?

I love herbal teas!

Anonymous said...

7:18

I thought that was clear. After rereading I see the critical reader can read only the "travel" was supposed.

I mentioned Tea was travelling with her party. A shame no one picked that pun.

I liked Tea Leoni in Flying Blind. Of course she is Greek.

nck

Byker Bob said...

And, of course, the history of prophecy as recorded in the Bible was that dire punishments were forecast if warnings went unheeded. If the warnings were heeded, or even partially heeded, then the full brunt of the prophecies would not fall on the subject of the prophecies. But, there had to be a warning that everybody, or the majority, knew about.

During the heyday of The World Tomorrow Program, (from about 1955-1975) the Armstrongs were warning about their interpretation of the apocalypse of Revelation. With many trends of the day (war, the upheaval in youth trends, the sexual revolution, rampant pollution of the planet, the disgracement of the president, recession and decline of the dollar), it appeared credible that the times of the end were upon us. However, then TWT became more secularized, it became obvious that the 1972-75 timeline was inaccurate, Garner Ted Armstrong became embroiled in scandal, HWA attempted to soldier on with the broadcast (though painfully obviously way beyond his prime), and the dire appearing trends began reversing themselves. Following the death of HWA, and with the ego-driven splintering, there has not been one clear and powerful or even noticeable voice from the Armstrong movement sounding the necessary or required warning. The closest thing to a warning was the "Left Behind" movement, brought to you courtesy of Sunday keepers. That, for a while, had even greater street buzz than TWT at its apex.

I don't even believe we are necessarily in the end times. As in the 1970s, we see a number of disturbing trends. But, these have seemed to come in waves throughout the past. Sometimes they subside or are dealt with and shrugged off by mankind, and in other cases, people adjust their expectations and continue on. The make-up and dynamics of the world change. Communication and easy travel has produced massive immigrations, which have transformed populations from a segregation of the races into more random mixtures, causing great impact on cultural trends. The Armstrong gospel was basically about white peoples' punishment, and preached at a time when the U.S. was 90% white. The memories of the Great Depression, WWII, the holocaust, and the invention of the bomb were still at the front of everyone's minds. The HWA gospel seemed credible in that context to a small proportion of the radio audience. That time, and those conditions have passed. It was all time and date stamped from the beginning, but the ACOGs have attempted to restamp the expiration date following 1975, with dwindling numbers of their own members continuing to find any credibility to it all. The remaining ones are waiting for something to suddenly emerge (events + audible warning) which would validate the prophecies of HWA, because by all measurable standards, that whole prophecy thing is lying smack in the middle of a dead zone.

BTW, one addition to my previous post: Revelation describes martyrdom by beheading. Traditionally, the Roman Catholics have burned infidels. Islamic extremists behead them.

BB

Byker Bob said...

Also, what if Israel actually means geographic Israel, instead of the clumsy concoction of HWA, used as his salesman's hook to create a sense of urgency amongst his listeners? The majority of the people in Israel today are agnostic, indicating loss of the oracles of the Torah. Also another of the signs of the end was armies amassing around Israel, not around the USA.

Keep in mind that this is all reasonable doubt being raised concerning the HWA prophecy mold. According to the Jews, absolute year 6,000 is still over 200 years off, and Chinese and Egyptian history goes much further back than 6,000 years. So do the geological layers which are literally written in stone.

BB

Anonymous said...

An interesting expose BB.

I would argue that the heyday of TWT would be the time when Ronald Reagan increased defense spending in order to wreck the Soviet Union. These were the times when the doomsday clock was nearing its final minutes.

Tbe Catholic raised Gorbachev new exactly that he was dealing with a "madman" who would press the red buttons in order to fight the Evil Empire. A president who was a firm believer in the Apocalypse as was taught in the auditorium he so frequently visited for concert series. Ok he referred to the students as Ambassadroids, but the California Governor/Presidengt shared a vision of Apocalypse with HWA.

Gorbachev knew that this was a battle he could not win. Not in economic terms, not in political staying power. HWA made no reservations in his praise for Ronald Reagan.

TWT peaked and responses to the telecast even even doubled twice after hwa's passing. Only Robert Schuller had a bigger audience.

Then the Soviet Union fell and the mission of all cold wariors was over.
Thus there was no use for wcg anymore.
There was no necessity anymore for the white mans burden and the special relation between the anglosaxon peoples.

For instance immediately after the collapse of the Soviet Union the regime in South Africa was told by the USA to immediately release Nelson Mandela and provide for a regime change.
A regime that was nominally supported during the cold war.


To understand the peak of wcg is important. In you timeline there is no connection with the cold war. In my timeline there is room for wcg as an instrument in the figth against the Evil empire. The main thrust of it being creating awareness of the official US foreign policy to create a unified Europe as a bullwark against communism ALBEIT WEAK, with feet of clay in order not to be able to turn against its creator the United States.

(therefore the official US policy to include Nato ally Turkey into the EC and EU. Which is ridiculous from a European viewpoint but necessary for American Foreign Policy to have a weak but unified Europe.

So in order to understand hwa, his message and his mission, you have to adapt your timeline that unfortunately stops the moment you decided to leave the movement. Good for you but not for understanding the true mission of wcg as an operational body.

nck






Steve D said...

HWA taught that similarities in words meant that one tribe must have migrated there. The tribe of Dan may have named the Danube River. The ebrews (Hebrews) named the Ebro river in Spain. Maybe the tribe of Dan ended up in Vietnam. Want proof? The U.S. had airbase in DANang during the war. So, the lost tribe of Dan must be in SE Asia. What more proof could anyone need?

Byker Bob said...

Yes, Steve, and yet they missed the Lemba tribe in Africa with all those wonderful Kohanime genes!

Nck ~ I do not believe Armstrongism or HWA had any significance with regard to world events or influence in any way upon international diplomacy. I believe that it was a dead end cult that while it certainly impacted all of us, was largely an illusion insofar as the rest of the world is concerned.

A salesman can be effective in moving product, or he can be a professional "visitor".
HWA moved his deceptive product to all of us, but was nothing more than a professional visitor to international leaders.

BB

Anonymous said...

Steve D.

The tribe moved to the Southern USA as proven by their frequent use of the phrase Dan g - it.


BB.

As I said. True Armstrongists believe exactly what hwa said, that he had one product to sell. I just regard the many awards and accolades that were heaped upon him to prove that maybe he had 2 or more products to sell.

But more importantly anything I say is construed as meaning that hwa was very important and significant. My actual point is that your and my parents and karl beyersdorffer for that matter can take some pride in some of their tithing.

If any handicapped child in Jordan can now sustain herself in some small way or if any israeli policeman of palestinian origin was influenced in some way by their small parents doing some dancing with jewish kids in the iccy center. Than that is not proof to me that hwa was the greatest ever. It serves to me that our parents willingly and knowingly send money for some of those causes. (we contributed in a minor way) And at least that money was well spent. So I am doing the work that hwa should have been doing and that is acknowledge the fact that contributions were by church members.

Now, of course hwa had no political cloud.
Those hundreds of dinners may have served as some sort of catalyst. And as a techie you know the catalyst just remains as it is. Unchanged, as if it served no purpose.

I will just focus on just one of those awards, that was awarded when you were still around, to explain my point.

The Japanese emperor doesn't randomly hand out the highest distinction for foreign civilians to random sleezy salesmen.

It was specifically awarded for the Church's involvement to establish Japanese sovereignty of Okinawa. (well it is my point to make it the Church, but it was awarded to hwa of course)

Anonymous said...

"The Japanese emperor doesn't randomly hand out the highest distinction for foreign civilians to random sleezy salesmen.

It was specifically awarded for the Church's involvement to establish Japanese sovereignty of Okinawa. (well it is my point to make it the Church, but it was awarded to hwa of course)"

prove it!

Anonymous said...

As you all know, adjectives such as "mind boggling", "astounding", "shocking" and "astonishing" were often used by Herbert Armstrong and his minions. They were used to train cult members' emotional responses and deepen their "us versus the world" milieu.

But having been out of the cult for several decades, and having many more years of life experiences and observations under my belt, now, I rarely am truly shocked these days.

And, when I read someone's opinion that money sent in to the WCG was "money well spent", and how HWA helped change the world for the better, I must admit that a small part of me wants to say that such opinions are "shocking" and "mind bogglingly" stupid.

However, the REALITY is that it's to be EXPECTED that a percentage of people who have been in Herbert's cult will be expressing such opinions.
I'm glad that Gary lets occasional comments from nuts like TraderJoe, nck and Ralph in here, to help us remember from whence we came.

Anonymous said...

+1

Ralph said...

on June 3, 2016 at 7:46 PM
Anonymous wrote:-

"I'm glad that Gary lets occasional comments from nuts like TraderJoe, nck and Ralph in here, to help us remember from whence we came."

I remain surprised that so many walked away from the old WCG and apparently brought nothing positive with them. Nothing!

cheers
ralph.f

Byker Bob said...

There wasn't anything positive to bring. Well, except for ourselves, that is. WCG was totally negative bullshit. As I have said many times, I seriously wish someone had given old Horace a life supply of condoms, the type with a high concentration of spermatacide.

BB

Anonymous said...

Ralph, in my opinion you are NOT in the same category as those others. You are much more consistent in your beliefs and attitude.

Ralph said:"I remain surprised that so many walked away from the old WCG and apparently brought nothing positive with them. Nothing!"

And that is your point of view. Fine. I have no problem with that, as long as you don't say you are speaking for God.

Cheers,
DBP