Friday, September 30, 2016

UCG Fails At Yet Another Media Campaign (Updated)



The poor old boys at UCG still don't get it.  No matter how hard they try they just CANNOT seem to draw in new members.

Vic Kubik writes about their latest campaign and blames poor attendance on lack of gas, weather and the Charlotte riots.  Whey these guys did not have the wherewithal to cancel the Charlotte campaign because of the riots shows how out of touch they really are.  300 signed up, 76, showed up, and of that 76 probably 40-50 were UCG members who attend to pad the audience.
On Monday, our Beyond Today Live team returned from North Carolina where we made the America: The Time is Now presentation in Raleigh, Greensboro and Charlotte. We reached a total of 76 people; however, more than 300 people registered to come. We had a few obstacles to our presentations. First, there was a gasoline shortage in the entire state. A gasoline pipeline had broken and gasoline stations did not have adequate fuel. As we traveled, we made certain that our fuel was always above a half tank. Also, there was stormy weather on the first part of the trip and, finally, street protests and unrest in Charlotte (after a black man was killed by police) affected attendance. One person called our pastor, Scott Hoefker, and told him that they really wanted to come, but they were fearful of getting out, not knowing how safe things were in the city. 
Church of God News reported this about three other UCG campaigns:
The three Beyond Today presentations, ‘America: The Time Is Now’ in North Carolina, drew only 27 new guests in Raleigh, 26 in Greensboro, and 23 in Charlotte (where several who registered did not attend owing to local unrest).

What has finally dawned on the old boys network is that people do not attend campaigns because of the speakers.  People attend church because of relationships built with members.  This is standard in most churches.  The problem in Armstrongism is that members were told to never discuss their faith with nonCOG members.  Examples work better at drawing members than does doom and gloom speeches and end of the word nonsense.

Or, UCG may be taking the usual route and blaming members for not being more involved.  This is probably more likely since the membership of the COG has never been able to do anything right over the last 8 decades.  It was always the members fault that prophecy never happened and Jesus had not returned.
It is becoming more apparent to us that local congregational involvement and engagement will be needed and expected to help increase our attendance. From the home office, we can do only so much to promote these events. Further publicity and encouragement will need to come from local pastors and their congregations. 
UCG member will soon start being "trained" on how to be proper examples. 20 years after the start of the most godly COG splinter group ever, it still has not been able to get cross to its members just what it is they are supposed to believe.
The personal appearance campaigns are making us more aware of the need to proclaim not only the gospel message, but also to “make disciples.” It is important to teach about the Kingdom of God from the Bible and to expound the scriptures that authoritatively explain God’s vision for the world. 
The problem with the COG view of a kingdom to come, which all Christians believe, is worthless in a troublesome world.  People need to know how to relate to daily struggles, not worry about some end time apocalypse or some idiotic final training in Petra.  Most Christians also know that UCG is full of hot air when it comes to perverted doctrines.  Until they clean up that mess they are not going to draw in many people.
A disciple develops a deep and secure understanding about the nature and authority of the Word of God. In any discussion with those outside of us you must speak up to establish the basis of your beliefs, which is the Bible. Are you able not only to defend your beliefs, but also defend the authenticity, genuineness and reliability of the Bible?
The church has always emphasized that everyone had to "prove" everything.  That is a load of garbage.  It is dwelling in the mystery and the unanswerable questions that have always inspired people through the centuries.  Living and believing in that tension is far more profitable than parked in front of some poorly researched correspondence course and proof texting scripture or reading legalistic web sites like James Malm and Dave Pack where they lie through their teeth.

The glory days of UCG are over.  It will NEVER be a great work.

31 comments:

Miguel de la Rodente said...

They should have known this through what happened within families. Even though newly baptized members more or less separated themselves from "unconverted" family members, some got curious, asked questions, and became members themselves. It should have dawned on the leaders that this same phenomenon could have been incorporated with neighbors or colleagues at work. But, the ministers wanted all of the control. Social Centers (locally owned church buildings) would also have helped.

The problem can be traced to the ACoG world view. Everything is black and white, and policy and procedure is supposed to be permanent, and one size fits all. In order to be dynamic, flexibility is required. Freezing a movement as a nostalgia act whose status is just holding on until the end is going to automatically elliminate dynamism. It has taken these folks 40 years to deal with the meaning of the failure of 1975 and the death of HWA. Now, it's like "Hey, the end hasn't happened, and we're not growing!" Sucks to be them!

James said...

They never mention God and why he is not blessing them. For example: God knew there would be a gas shortage but neglected to inspire them to set the date of the media campaign for when gas was ample.

Another, God is in charge of the weather. Ir seems God didn't care to change the weather so all could attend.

Another: God could have prevented the situation that bought the riots to Charlotte, Raleigh, and Greensboro. God chose not to.

It seems God does not recognize the ucg as of God's making.

Lawrence Epworth said...

Yeah, UCG? Sign me UP! I want to pay 30% of my income to a church for... ????
I want to lose a week's pay to take off to keep a festival that was only done under the Levitical system in Jerusalem. Yup.

I sure do want to keep my knowledge of Jesus the savior to myself and never be able to talk about him with my friends or neighbors. Yup..sign me up today.

I can't wait to enter into the clique situation of that church where popularity depends on sucking up to the high muckymucks. Yup, signing up now!

I want a church where Christ is never mentioned.
I want a church that rags on others and considers itself glorified already!
(Speaking of which saw a comment by a youngun on facebook saying it was hard on her at school because all her fellow students were so evil and dumb while she was glowing with truth and goodness. Sanctimonious much?)

I want a church that has nothing to offer its members really. Yup, sign me up now!

Yes, I want to hear nothing but tribulation, tribulation, tribulation. All tribulation, they suck we're great sermons all the time!

Anonymous said...

Yeah, UCG? Sign me UP! I want to pay 30% of my income to a church for... ????

How about RCG? Pay all (common) for the same... ????

Black Ops Mikey said...

The rich and wonderful blessings of God never end.

Blessings for UCG either have been over for some time or never began at all.

And we know where to pin the blame.

On God.

Gerald Bronkar said...

What is the difference between those of us who are holding fast to our beliefs, and longing for the tribulation, and those who have been able to move on and embrace new knowledge and ideas? I no longer fret about a future apocalypse, or a wrathful god.
I never experienced shock treatments or LSD trips. Am I wired differently, or just simply lucky? It is hard for me to accept that so many are still under the influence after so much contrary evidence slapping them in the face.
I will admit that after fourteen years in the middle of the cult is was not easy to walk away. I was pushed. Another factor could be that my dad introduced our family to "The World Tomorrow " broadcast. It was not something I discovered on my own.
I am perplexed that with information so readily available people can remain so convinced and closed. Very sad to witness. I am hopeful that posts on this site will enable some to grow the courage to walk away.

Anonymous said...


“UCG member will soon start being 'trained' on how to be proper examples.”


No they won't! They will continue to be rotten examples!! It is almost as certain as the rising and setting of the sun!!!

Anonymous said...

If God was backing the UCG it wouldn't be shrinking but growing. Didn't the UCG start out at 21,000 members. Now membership is about 1/3 of that 7,000 members. The same can be said about the other COG's. They have all shrunk in numbers.

Lets face it people, Armstrongism is a dying religion. Religion in general is declining. The only churches that grow are those that tend to be modern, they tend to be more positive and open to new members and have a message that is more relavent to modern society. They also have a visual presence in the community. Oh by the way they also tend to attract young couples and singles and are not legalistic, who wants legalism?

Anonymous said...

I have seen this coming for decades now. A lot of my old good friends, like Richard Pinelli, are very aged members and "leaders" in that vain attempt at outdoing Worldwide. Some of them are long dead now. Others soon will be. I often wonder what goes through their minds these days as they see nothing by shrinkage and decline. The old guard is ageing and declining in every way, just like I am. I'm not surprised. I saw it coming. But, I was on the outside looking in as best I could. It's hard to be realistic when you're on the inside and everything in your life revolves around and is dependent on the organisation you desperately tried to build and grow. However, it hasn't grown. It won't grow. And, there's nothing they can do to reverse it. Many of the reasons have been graphically pointed out here and elsewhere. I'm certainly glad to be on the outside looking in because I turned my back on that and all other theological abortions decades ago.



Allen C. Dexter

Anonymous said...

Has UCG ever had any glory days ? It's been a smorgasbord of one waring fraction of leaders/wannabee leaders against another. Big splits, little splits, all out war, cool resentment,bullying, snide remarks, contradictory behaviour, confusion and secrecy. Ucg is not for the fainthearted. They've only got themselves to blame. No need to drag God into the arena of blame.

Anonymous said...

Concluding post comment said; "...The glory days of UCG are over. It will NEVER be a great work..."

2 November 1998, I emailed our local United Pastor, PRS (initials only), to advise him of the "rut" I believed the United Ass. was in and why I was departing:

"...As you know, I attended Indianapolis and have watched UCGia literally "flounder around" now for some 3 and 1/2 years. The "hopes" I had when I attended Indy have all vanished and I see no "hope" for UCGia as an organization. Time will tell whether my perception here is right or wrong. It appears to be in a rut of sorts. It, in my opinion, really isn't growing in "grace and knowledge." It appears that God is not guiding the organization at all. I can say the same for the Worldwide Church of God beginning sometime around the time of the death of Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong, who I believe God led, and who taught me many foundational things like the Sabbath, the names of God's Holy Days (Festivals), clean and unclean meats, etc. Many of the organizations today are striving to continue the same things learned way back then, but there appears to be virtually no "forward movement" in the area of growth in "grace and knowledge." It appears something is missing and it seem to me to be God's Spirit...it appears that UCGia is stuck in an area of providing "milk of the word." Milk is important. It is absolutely needed, but there should be a "weaning" at some point. It does appear, in my opinion, that some Firstfruits are starving, sometimes almost like "grapes drying on the vine."...I went to Indianapolis to learn whether God was going to continue working with the people there who eventually became the UCGia. At this point in time, the Indianapolis experience seems a lot like throwing a pebble into a pond of calm water. Beautiful waves, in the shape of concentric circles, were evident (lasted, it seems, only until the next GCE meeting), but as time went on the waves faded, ...and the rock? Well, you can figure that one out..."

That was almost 18 years ago! The United Ass. is still in a rut. PRs jumped from the United Ass. rut into the COGWA rut...and I ask: what glory days? What great work?

And still these Ass. haven't figured out that Jesus Christ came to earth in a "second coming" that only lasted 40 days after Jesus Christ visited His Father in Heaven, where Jesus Christ will remain until ALL the ENEMIES are put down. Still want to believe He will rule on earth for 1,000 years and make the Father out to be some liar (Psalm 110:1, etc. about 16 other verses), then dig another rut!

Still looking for those 10 kings/nations to show up soon? Dig another rut!

Just remember the last enemy to be put down is DEATH! Even Satan sticks his head out again after that Mickey Mouse Millennium to mess over Jerusalem and whatever peace was there.

Glory days? Any sort of a worthwhile work?

And time will tell...

John

Anonymous said...

"f God was backing the UCG it wouldn't be shrinking but growing."


gotta love these folks that can predict God's actions on specific events.....lol

just like the blab it and grab it crowd, they equate physical blessings with God's approval.

Anonymous said...

"I am perplexed that with information so readily available people can remain so convinced and closed. Very sad to witness. I am hopeful that posts on this site will enable some to grow the courage to walk away."

It's best if you approach them as if they are 5 years old(spiritually), and who are lost looking for a home. Sargon of Akkad packed a whole lot of info into two short summaries.
Part 1
Part 2

DBP

DennisCDiehl said...

One of my worst WCG minstry experiences was in the 90's when WCG was holding large "campaigns" during the time of general distrust and suspicion about what the Tkaches had in mind for the church. I was selected to have one in Greenville and flown to Pasadena to be "trained" in the presentations. It was pathetic but at the time I had little choice. At the actual event, the audience had only a few new folk by comparison to the members in the audience. I had to talk about the standard Jesus is coming soon stuff, the Wonderful World Tomorrow and how it all works out just fine. I was also in my own beginning period of doubts about the Church and the Bible itself.

It was a good example of the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing in Pasadena and getting stuck in the middle. That "Campaign" was in fact, the beginning of the end for the Greenville congregation which went from 450 to less than 20 over the course of the next three years.

What a stupid religious and theological experience the WCG and all it's splits, splinters and slivers has turned out to be. I had shit for brains in my naive and idealistic youth into middle age.

Anonymous said...

Just to be facetious, it wasn't the doctrine or dogma so much, but the drama the manipulative sociopaths caused.

Miguel de la Rodente said...

At some point in time, these groups are going to realize that there is no longer even any hope in the possible potential for them to participate in or fulfill HWA's mission statements for his church.

DennisCDiehl said...

I'm waiting for ....' "You still do" lol

Anonymous said...

"The personal appearance campaigns are making us more aware of the need to proclaim not only the gospel message, but also to “make disciples.” It is important to teach about the Kingdom of God from the Bible and to expound the scriptures that authoritatively explain God’s vision for the world.

A disciple develops a deep and secure understanding about the nature and authority of the Word of God. In any discussion with those outside of us you must speak up to establish the basis of your beliefs, which is the Bible. Are you able not only to defend your beliefs, but also defend the authenticity, genuineness and reliability of the Bible?
"

So, are they going to be knocking on doors now like the Jehovah's Witnesses?

And once you understand the nature and history of ancient Jewish and Christian texts, how derivative these texts are of Egyptian, Babylonian, and Hellenistic pagan religious and secular texts, genres, and traditions, how nearly all of them were written anonymously, how poor the provenance is for any of them, how the body of works the early Catholic church fathers had to choose from in the 4th century was awash in forgeries, how impossible it was for them to figure out which ones, if any, were "legitimate," how scholars have demonstrated that those early Catholics did not in fact successfully figure it out, if indeed that was a possible option in the first place, it really becomes impossible to defend the authenticity, genuineness or reliability of the bible...

...unless, of course, you are either a completely ignorant, gullible, and unqualified to speak about the subject, or else were comfortable with outright lying through your gawddamned teeth.

Which is it for UCG and COG ministers? Are they completely incompetent rubes, or are they culpable baldfaced liars?

Byker Bob said...

Well, Dennis, everyone ends up with at least some regrets.

Growing up in the Radio Church of God, and becoming college or university age pre-1975 trapped many of us. I knew some students at AC who had not been raised in the church, and who had independently of their parents decided that AC was a very special place. I admired their attitudes, but personally, I felt trapped. My interests were technical, specifically involved with mechanical devices. Had I had proper mentoring, or parental guidance, I might have studied mechanical engineering. But, my parents tried to convince me that all of my aptitudes were more in keeping with "God's College", and that there was a wonderful and special calling that awaited me. The only college for which I would have had their undying support was Ambassador, and I was just too young and inexperienced to fight it for any alternatives. Also, at that time, we all fully expected that within the next 7 years, the tribulation would begin. So a degree at a real college or university would only have been of value for 3 years at best. Back then, if you didn't attend college and get some sort of deferment, you had to fight your draft board, because Viet Nam was on, bigtime. I took the path of least resistance, AC. At that point, I probably had PTSD and suffered from depression because of how I had been raised, and what I "knew". Who even cared about life, because it was all going to be over before it even began, and if the church was going to administer the place of safety, and the millennium, even that was too depressing to contemplate.

I did recover, starting in 1975, and have had a reasonably fulfilling life, so am really not bitter or angry about any of this. In fact, I feel great compassion for the people whom I had once admired for their attitudes who discovered late in life, and with greater consequences, that it was not in fact what it had been advertised as being. My point is to graphically expose the evils of false and coercive prophecies, made by people who do not have the special insider knowledge or guidance that they claim. Their activity robbed us all of far greater opportunities to be viable contributors, positive influences on the world around us. False prophecy from people whom we trusted implicitly caused incredible squandering of intelligence and talents, and made all of our lives perpetually unfulfilling, at least until we opted out. In the end, it impacted what I used to call "the good boys and girls" as much as it did those of us who developed our aversions earlier on in life. The sabbath, holy days, and clean meats were not inherently bad. Ask the Jews who delight in them! What poisoned Armstrongism was false prophecy coupled with totalitarian authority.

The attitudes of the people who came to Ambassador College of their own volition would have been attractive in virtually any setting. But, I didn't understand how they could have them. Later, I realized that they had not had enough time to see and process the downside those of us who were raised in the church had, making it much easier for them to have a kind of "honeymoon" attitude towards AC/HWA/WCG. Today, there is another group of people whom I don't understand. It is the people in the ACOGs who continue to allow their leaders to impact their lives with the same false prophecies, forty + years after their massive failure. Somehow, they filter out anything which counters those prophecies, feeling that HWA was a special case, and that unlike William Miller, he will somehow end up being vindicated, even though God did not validate the original timeline, or any revised timelines coming from that movement over the past decades. For them, the delusion is set so deeply and firmly in their minds that death is the only antidote or release. And that is incredibly sad. We sometimes say that it is their own choice, their own fault. But, is it really, or are they victims of powerful undue influence?

BB

Glenn said...

Good post, Bob. Insightful and compassionate.

Byker Bob said...

Thanks, Glenn. Hope all is well for you down there in Tejas! We did travel amongst some of the same people back in those days, and you all were some of the ones I was remembering and thinking about as I composed that post. I often wonder how some of the other guys' lives turned out. I'd like to think good and successful, but so many people just walked away, and never checked back for us once the internet kicked in. In the era of card-based computers, we had no clues of the forthcoming information super highway back then, and could not have known that the end was not going to hit in '75. Even I believed that, as a jaded rebel clown. Yet here we are.

BB

Anonymous said...


“The glory days of UCG are over. It will NEVER be a great work.”


No Glory in the disUnited Church of Godlessness

The United Church of God splinter group never really had any glory days, and only more gory days are in store for it. Maybe even meat hooks in the Great Tribulation gory days.

The only modern Church of God that ever had what could be construed as glory days was the Worldwide Church of God under Herbert W. Armstrong. In the 1980's, HWA had made it appear to be so easy to grow the church that many people thought that he was too old and incompetent and that they could easily do it too. In fact, they thought that they could do it even better than HWA. They were troubled and upset that old HWA was supposedly ruining the church and keeping it from reaching its full potential that it could reach if only they were in charge instead of him. They were happy to get their chance to run the show when HWA finally died in January 1986 at age 94, and Joseph W. Tkach, Sr. took over running the WCG.

The apostate Tkaches and their accomplices liked to get in all sorts of little digs at HWA for his supposed faults, while making themselves out to be so much wiser, more knowledgeable, thriftier, more efficient, better stewards, more loving, more spiritual, etc. Interestingly, the more they criticized HWA and praised themselves, the more the WCG stopped growing and went into decline. When the apostate Tkaches finally, openly, and totally rejected HWA's teachings and ways in January 1995, the WCG under them totally collapsed. When Joseph W. Tkach, Sr. died about 40 weeks after totally apostatizing, his son Joseph Tkach, Jr. took over and changed the name of the remaining godless mess to Grace Communion International. Joe, Jr. was afflicted with an extremely severe case of “cognitive dissonance” and was the “brains” behind all the senseless destruction in the church. Of course, the bigger picture is that the Devil was ultimately involved too, and that Joe, Jr. was just one of his useful dupes. Joe, Jr. suddenly and conveniently claimed to have discovered that Abraham had tithed before the institution of the Old Covenant, and began calling on every man, woman, and child to resume tithing immediately, but it was too late.

The Great Apostasy in the WCG under the apostate Tkaches led to such things as people trampling on the biblical Sabbath, eating unclean creatures, observing Halloween, smoking, and even suddenly realizing that they were “gay” and needed to divorce their mates. Most of the alleged faults with HWA's old teachings seem like normal and minor ones by comparison. But when ministerial paychecks started to disappear along with the collapse of the WCG, that was too much. The apostasy had gone too far. A band of WCG politicians was understandably indignant about this and formed the UCG several months after the massive doctrinal changes of January 1995 in order to stand up for their sacrosanct paychecks. All other teachings had been negotiable.

The WCG at its peak had about 150,000 people attending its Feast of Tabernacles. The UCG got only about 20,000 of these people. Nevertheless, the UCG bragged early on that it was already at the same number of people that it had taken HWA many years to assemble together. Of course, the only reason that the UCG was able to do this was because HWA had already attracted all these people together in the first place, and they were now leaving the sudden and total apostasy of the WCG in 1995.

Continued below...

Anonymous said...


...continued from above.

The idea was that anyone was free to attend with the UCG, and hopefully support it, as long as they “came in peace.” The unfortunate reality was that many godless people showed up to play church while behaving very badly. Expelling victims of abuse (and even their entire extended families) was considered to be easier in the UCG than expelling the many bad people there. The result has been continual splintering. People are expected to put up with unrepentant, unconverted, unbelieving perverts who show up behaving very badly in order to “show love” to them. In contrast, the perverts are not expected to change at all. Continual abuse and unfairness can lead to other problems. In 2011, a large group split off from the UCG and called itself the Church of God, a Worldwide Association, or COGWA.

Recent UCG politicking saw Victor Kubic get himself elected to run the UCG gong show. In his previous WCG job, he had helped the apostate Tkaches to expel WCG members who did not agree with all the doctrinal changes that the apostate Tkaches were making. Later, after going with the UCG, he refused to apologize for his past behavior, explaining that he was just doing his job back then. It is this sort of perverse idea that a minister's main job is to collect an easy paycheck rather than to stand up for the truth that is at the heart of the UCG's problems.

nck said...

"we had no clues of the forthcoming information super highway back then"

A) And yet the internet was invented already in AC hams time.
B) And you were studying at a place that was exploring each and every method to connect the world through media and diplomacy
C) As Elon Musk was talking about his plans for Mars I recalled the first pictures of Mars being sent straight to the Auditorium then to Jet Propulsion.

It is hard to see a forest when focussing on a tree.

nck

Anonymous said...

Fantastic post. Very true.

Byker Bob said...

A) ARPANET wasn't launched until 1969. The general public wasn't even aware of the internet until the Worldwide Web became popular in the 1990's. Glenn and I overlapped as AC students in 1967-68.

B) There was nothing revolutionary about the WCG's media usage (printed magazines, and radio and TV broadcasts), or non-existent acts of diplomacy during that era. We were studying at an unaccredited college, rigidly controlled by a repressive cult, that virtually outlawed any sort of academic freedom, or even freedom of speech.

C) Elon Musk wasn't born until 1971. "Herbie's Last Erection" (the auditorium) wasn't built until the early '70s. Students such as Glenn or myself could not have been watching anything in the auditorium during our student years, let alone pictures from Mars.

I liked you better, nck, during the brief period when you were acting normal, and making a higher percentage of factually verifiable statements. We can't see a forest when it is purely imaginary, and nonexistent.

BB

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 3:22 wrote:

The only modern Church of God that ever had what could be construed as glory days was the Worldwide Church of God under Herbert W. Armstrong.

It seems that Anonymous 3:22 is either some kind of myopic HWA worshipper or is a monolingual English speaker. If the WCG at its peak was a glorious Philadelphian Work, then the Denver Conference of the present Church of God Seventh-Day should be recognized as even more glorious and Philadelphian. More than 200,000 baptized believers in 40 nations around the world are active members -- which puts WCG to shame with its mostly-American 150,000 top attendance (out of which actual baptized members were no more than 3/4 of that number, as the 150,000 Feast attendance includes many unbaptized attendees).

COG7 doesn't believe in HWA's Church Eras doctrine, but if you applied that doctrine to the reality of the ACOG world today you might have to conclude that WCG was the Thyatira Era, which fell apart because it tolerated a Jezebel spirit in leaders who slept with their daughters and with their female students, leading to a Sardis Era of hundreds of scattered little ineffective churches, of which COG7 is the best candidate to call "Philadelphia."

nck said...

BB,

Ok.

I admit. I like you better also since the summer solstice.
I'll look into my regress as we are approaching winter solstice.

It was at least inconsiderate of mine to make the joke after your eloquent expressions earlier. But I consider it as funny as your comments on pot initiation rites.

Now to also move into a positive direction from my side.
My feeling is that, perhaps, your (work)experiences have moved you to work with perfect planning, perfect hardware, perfect execution and perfect output. (just an opinion)

My experience on a daily basis is to work with scarce and imperfect information, partial planning, immediate execution and continious adjustment as new information surfaces.

If perhaps interested in how my admittedly poor "joke" evolved.

https://www.amazon.com/Superforecasting-Science-Prediction-Philip-Tetlock/dp/0804136696

Perhaps with this little booklet not free for the asking, I have explained more on how what some consider the worst of armstrongism serves me well each day.

It might also explain why some might read my first paragraph on the "solstices" as a stupid inaccurate way of expression on psychology, others as poetry, others as an indication of time, but perhaps some smart kid on the blog(ck) as an EXACT expression of location.
In ordinary life I respond to the eye of the beholder. Perhaps I can do that in cyber too.

Anyway, thanks for the input,

nck








Anonymous said...

nck,.."It is hard to see a forest when focussing on a tree."

Snap out of it, nck! You are fixated on the tree that just about every regular here has already chopped down. "In a imaginary forest, an imginary tree falls down, with know one there to see it. Does the imaginary tree still fall down?"

DBP

nck said...

DBP

First I wrote quite an inflammatory posting on the 3900523 choppings as of today, which prove to me NONE of the regulars has chopped the tree yet.

However since you expressed concern that I could do better I decided not to post it and answer your riddle.

"That for certain your posting existed even before I observed it."


nck

Anonymous said...


Anonymous on October 2, 2016 at 2:40 PM said...


“If the WCG at its peak was a glorious Philadelphian Work, then the Denver Conference of the present Church of God Seventh-Day should be recognized as even more glorious and Philadelphian. More than 200,000 baptized believers in 40 nations around the world are active members -- which puts WCG to shame with its mostly-American 150,000 top attendance (out of which actual baptized members were no more than 3/4 of that number, as the 150,000 Feast attendance includes many unbaptized attendees).”



Using a made up membership number like 200,000 for the COG(7D) suggests that you are one of the more conservative exaggerators. Other more exuberant exaggerators make up numbers like 300,000 or even 400,000. For some reason, this reminds me of a cartoon character who made up a number called “frazillion,” but it was not a real number.

When HWA came in contact with the Church of God (Seventh Day) in his early years, it had only about 2,000 people in the United States. HWA taught that the COG(7D) was a true era (the Sardis era) of the true church that did the work of God for a while, but that it was rather worn out by the time he showed up. Of course, the COG(7D) never liked that idea. After all, it had a name that said it was alive--even though it was dead. By 1995, the COG(7D) had grown only to about 5,000 people in the entire United States.

One older man who had been in the Seventh Day Adventist church explained that the COG(7D) never did a work of its own. The only thing that the COG(7D) ever did was go to SDA camp-meetings and put their little COG(7D) tracts under the windshield wipers of the SDA cars there.

The COG(7D) people that I know about criticized each other so much that their tiny little congregation for an extremely large area ended up shutting down. Now, some of them hang out at SDA churches where they cause more division--not over doctrinal matters, but over personal jealousies and rivalries. It is their own, personal, bad behavior that puts the COG(7D) people to shame.

What is going on over here with the COG(7D) is truly pathetic. Making up fibs about how the COG(7D) is supposedly more spiritual and active and vibrant far far away in long lost lands does not change these local facts.