Saturday, October 1, 2016

Eternal Church of God: Eating Out On Sabbath Will Bring Death Just Like Eve Died For Eating That Apple



The Eternal Church of God is one of the many hundreds of little splinter personality cults that has popped up over the decades.   It is also one of the more uber-legalistc groups out there that seeks to control much of everything its members do, in much the same way that James Malm does with his Pharisaical lies.

One of the ECG biggest pet peeves is COG members who dare to eat out on the Sabbath.  This is utter blasphemy and is equivalent to jabbing the spear into Christ's side at the crucifixion.  Every time you eat out on Saturdays, God puts another black mark in your book of life. There can be no greater blasphemy.

Apparently Eve ate that apple on the Sabbath and when you eat out at Denny's on the Sabbath you too shall die.
Warning
Nearly 6,000 years ago Satan told Eve to disobey God and “you will not surely die” (Gen. 3:4). She ate the forbidden fruit and ultimately perished. Today there are some who teach God’s people that it is acceptable to go to restaurants on the Sabbath. In other words, eat and you won’t die. However, God clearly stated that if we choose to violate His Sabbath we will pay the ultimate consequence. 
Having a Big Mac is also condemned by Nehemiah:

Engaging in business with food services, as either the retailer or the consumer, is the very conduct that inspired Nehemiah’s righteous indignation. With this in mind, here is a question to consider. Would Nehemiah think differently about buying and selling today? 
Later this comment is made:
Those who dine out on the Sabbath are breaking every aspect of God’s command with respect to eating and resting on His sacred day. Consider what they do. They acquire food on the Sabbath. They have it prepared for them on the Sabbath. They go outside the community of faith to procure the food as well as to consume it. Then they engage in a business transaction by paying for the meal and tipping the server. Tragically, many of God’s people rationalize every one of these practices. Even more tragic is the fate that awaits them if they fail to repent of this sin. 
Yep, the lake of fire is ready to fry those poor hapless fools that stop by In-n-Out for a burger.

Those that dare to eat out are accepting the Mark of the Beast.

The question is which mark do we carry? One of the most obvious displays of God’s mark is our behavior on the Sabbath. The Church of God must realize that when people choose to frequent restaurants they are rejecting God’s authority, they are refusing to accept His mark, and giving way to the mark of the beast! 
Then they attempt to use Jesus, that most inconvenient man to ever confront the Church of God.  Jesus obviously would have cooked for his family, but the New testament never mentions that he did, therefore you should not cook for yours on Saturdays!   That is perfect Church of God logic for you!
Although Jesus undoubtedly provided meals for His family during His lifetime on earth, there is no example of Him doing so in the New Testament. However, one example does appear in the Old Covenant that speaks volumes about how God approaches that which is holy. 
Herbert Armstrong never considered eating out on Saturdays to be an issue.  Nor did he feel it was an issue to pay his cooks to cook him breakfast, lunch and dinner on Friday nights and Saturdays.  This is a major burr under the saddle of professional Judaizer's like James Malm and the ECG.  To get around that mess the ECG attempts to blame lazy ministers for starting the trend.

Members once knew that eating at a restaurant on the Sabbath was wrong, but many have compromised this truth. It occurred slowly at first. The ministry once suggested that there might be times when eating out on the Sabbath was appropriate. No doctrinal studies were done, no papers were produced, and no official changes were ever made. As time went on, more and more people began dining out with greater frequency. Men began to take their wives out to dinner Friday night. Eventually this practice became habitual. 
Then the ECG tries to explain how Herbert Armstrong was wrong and he had been "tripped up" by a question he had never had time to think about, take to the Council of Elders for advice, nor have time to study deeply into at home...or apparently at the library in Eugene, OR.
One large organization published an article stating that dining out on the Sabbath has always received a stamp of approval by the Church. They claim that the Church of God has “consistently taught that eating in a restaurant on the Sabbath was permissible.” In an attempt to justify this belief, they quote Mr. Armstrong who said the following prior to a Bible study. 
“Now if you go out to a restaurant on the Sabbath, that restaurant is going to be there and that food is going to be prepared whether you go or not and the other people are going to be working anyway. They don’t keep the Sabbath. They pay no attention to that. Now I had never thought until .this evening when the question was brought up to me about whether it’s wrong to go to a restaurant to eat. I know when I travel, I have to do it or do without. And so I do.” 
Before anyone can claim that Mr. Armstrong approved of this practice, we must first understand the context of his statement. When asked about this issue, it was five minutes prior to a Bible study he was to give on a separate subject. His reply came from an “off the cuff” perspective. He did not take the question home and study it before responding. He did not present it to the council of Elders and produce an article to the Church changing this doctrine. This fact is obvious from the words “I had never thought until this evening when the question was brought up...” 
In addition, Mr. Armstrong traveled the world visiting various leaders and dignitaries. In his case, he believed it was necessary to occasionally visit restaurants during the Sabbath or he would have to do without any food. Therefore, because he did it on occasion, he felt that it was probably permissible under certain circumstances. His unusual set of circumstances likely motivated his statement. However, over the years, these words led many brethren to believe that they can do business at a restaurant any time they want. This is simply human error. 
We must recognize that the only man who was ever perfect was Christ. While Mr. Armstrong was an apostle, he was not faultless. All of the apostles have made mistakes. 
God's apostle obviously made a mistake, even though Jesus personally worked through him 24/7.  The dance that COG member make to get around things and justify their stances are actually quit comical at times.
In like manner, the apostle of our age modified his teachings as he came to a more complete understanding. Over decades he made changes to the church position on the doctrines of government, the destiny of mankind, divorce, remarriage, and Pentecost.
The Church of God is one of the only churches that admits wrong and changes when it finds the truth. We are told to prove all things, and hold fast to what is true (1Ths. 5:21). Our process of growth and understanding was not meant to stop when a leader died. Therefore, we are convinced that if Mr. Armstrong would have lived to this day, he would have changed on this doctrine. Eternal Church of God: The Sabbath Test
No he would not have!  To say so is a lie!  Cooks, housekeepers, chauffeurs, secretaries, Auditorium stage crew, support staff on church jets, and those that travelled with him all did work on Saturdays, bought things whenever the boss said to and were paid.  Even his Doctor was paid to visit him on Saturdays! The Ambassador Auditorium was allowed to be built on Saturdays as were many other campus buildings.  Feast sites were also built on Saturdays.


Certain COG leaders have this same issue because they can't get past the physical etched stone 10 commandments.  Their entire emphasis is placed upon the law and obedience while they ignore everything about Jesus and the new covenant. Legalism puffs them up so they can feel superior to everyone else.  They are God's called out.  The Chosen.  Kings and Priests. Afterall, THEY have the "truth." Legalists are always looking at the outward visible signs of obedience.  It is important to be seen doing "right" so they can click their tongues at those stopping off at the DQ for some ice cream.

All of the Malm's, Thiel's, Meredith's, Pack's, Flurry's and others out there infecting COGland  with their needless rules and regulations need to do us all a favor and follow Paul's exhortation to emasculate themselves.  Maybe then they would shut up and stop lying.

Grumpy Legalists

Why Jesus Hates Legalism (Luke 11:37-54)

The Naked Gospel: The truth you may never hear in church 

The Sabbath in Crisis

Twisted Scriptures: Breaking free from churches that abuse



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50 comments:

Anonymous said...

Those ministers who condemn members for buying meals on a Sabbath don't seem to mind those same members buying gasoline to return from a long round-trip journey to and from services.

Those ministers who condemn members for buying meals on a Sabbath still flush their toilets and run their lights and heaters/AC units, forcing public utility workers to work at their jobs.

Orthodox Jews have thought these matters out far more thoroughly and carefully and consistently than have the ACOG ministers. These ACOG ministers are just picking and choosing based on their own human reasoning.

Black Ops Mikey said...

The founding / lead minister will never be able to be a minister in the UCG: It has to do with... well, let's just say it's a bit more serious than eating out on the Sabbath.

So you have people that are livid about eating out on the Sabbath but the morals of the founding minister are not at question.

Perhaps they should be.

From there, Armstrongists should question every assumption they face in the ACoGs -- and if the truth be told, there wouldn't be much left....

Anonymous said...

Every time a COG member eats out on the Sabbath, an angel looses its wings.

Anonymous said...

Luke 14:1...

Hoss said...

Look at Eve's lips and eyes. Is she wearing makeup?

Anonymous said...

Well, there never was any seven day creation by any god, so the sabbath is completely bogus to begin with. It is totally impossible to run a world in which sabbaths are kept as ridiculously demanded. It's time for people to wake up and realize that the sabbath was just another way to keep people in fearful subjugation to an imaginary being who was just another particularly jealous member of the Canaanite pantheon, imagined son of El and brother to Baal.

Allen C. Dexter.

Anonymous said...

Like I just said, the sabbath is completely bogus. We humans do need time off from actual work and so we have established five and even four day work weeks in many nations with no connection to any special sabbath day. It's the superstition and the theological lies that give the problem. I long ago decided I'd determine when I needed to rest and didn't worry anymore about when or if I did business on a particular day. I have a certain amount of time, a certain amount of resources, and I'll determine how all are spent without superstitious and fictional regard for any so-called holy period, thank you.

Allen C. Dexter

Anonymous said...


Anonymous at 6:36 PM said...“Orthodox Jews have thought these matters out far more thoroughly and carefully and consistently than have the ACOG ministers.”


Religious Jews have thought these matters out so long ago and so carefully that in the first century AD they were already criticizing Jesus for healing people on the Sabbath day, accusing his disciples of breaking the Sabbath by munching on some grain as they walked through a field on a Sabbath day, complaining that his disciples did not follow the tradition of the elders and wash their hands before eating, and had concluded that handing over one's money was the most important thing one could possibly do, far above caring for one's own parents as the commandment of God had taught. Jesus said that they did many such things, and he did not seem to approve of it. He said that they full-well reject the commandments of God in order to keep their own traditions. Some religious Jews had fussed conscientiously about some little things such as tithing on their spices, but had neglected the more important matters of the law such as justice, mercy, and faithfulness. Jesus called them “blind guides” who “strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.”

There are many types of Jews today, scattered all around the world by God for the sins of their forefathers. Some are godless Jews. Some of these went to Hollywood to be really bad and to spread their badness around through shameful movies. Some make shameful noises and call themselves “singers.” Other Jews call themselves Reform Jews. They claim that God's ways are abhorrent, and want to “reform” God's ways to make them conform to their own supposedly “modern” degenerate ways. Some Jews try to straddle the fence and call themselves Conservative Jews, but when the crunch comes, they end up behaving like Reform Jews. Some Jews are called Ultra-Orthodox, but they just look ultra-nutty with their weird hair styles. Their tradition was based on emotionalism rather than on Bible study. Some Jews are into Kabbalah, which is basically indulging in mysticism and hokes-pokes rather than paying attention to what the Bible actually says. They like to pretend that there is some other, secret, meaning to the words in the Bible, which their magic can uncover, someday. When celebrities dabble in Jewish stuff, this seems to be their favorite type. Even Orthodox Jews know so much (or maybe so little) that they conclude that Jesus and the New Testament of the Bible are not to be followed. Obviously, they and Jesus have some sort of difference of opinion about some things.

Anonymous said...

I realize this may be a waste of a post, as maybe most people here now don't believe in obeying the 10 commandments, but here goes. (no, I will not condone HWA or his teachings)

If you believe you should keep the sabbath holy, and also believe it's ok to eat out in restaurants I challenge you to share the gospel with your waiter and restaurant staff. Consider how this would go.

"Sir/mam, did you know that working on the sabbath is a sin? It's breaking the 4th commandment. But you can be saved from your sins through repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus."

Now, if you successfully shared the gospel with the entire restaurant, and they all got baptised, and then kept the 4th commandment, next week you would have to find a new restaurant to go to. But if you did, how would the restaurant staff from the previous week view your actions?

Hypocrisy is one of the most pervasive problems in the COGs. It doesn't matter your belief on the subject in general, you simply cannot pay people to work for you on the sabbath and teach people they shouldn't work on the sabbath in the same breath and not be a hypocrite.

Also, if you read the commandment, it says even your animals get to rest on the sabbath, so no, they wouldn't be working anyways, and ignorance of the law of rest doesn't mean you get to take advantage of that ignorance, otherwise you could work your animals. (which are permanently ignorant of God's laws)

One of the biggest complaints I have read on this site and many others about HWA and his progeny, is that they didn't walk the walk. Despite this particular COG's bizarre slant and teaching, the core of the idea is inline with the scriptures, especially Jesus in Luke 14:1.

-Robert

Anonymous said...


Allen C. Dexter said...“Like I just said, the sabbath is completely bogus. We humans do need time off from actual work and so we have established five and even four day work weeks in many nations with no connection to any special sabbath day. It's the superstition and the theological lies that give the problem. I long ago decided I'd determine when I needed to rest and didn't worry anymore about when or if I did business on a particular day. I have a certain amount of time, a certain amount of resources, and I'll determine how all are spent without superstitious and fictional regard for any so-called holy period, thank you.”


Is that really true? Or did you actually just cave in and decide to let those who hire you determine when you need to work and when you can have a rest?

nck said...

Robert said,

"Hypocrisy is one of the most pervasive problems in the COGs. It doesn't matter your belief on the subject in general, you simply cannot pay people to work for you on the sabbath and teach people they shouldn't work on the sabbath in the same breath and not be a hypocrite."

I was immediately thinking of the Catholic laws forbidding usury while the entire trade in the (known) world dependent on Jewish lenders.

Interesting subject indeed with the enormous growth of Islamic banking.

Thank you for your input as I consider the allocation of my assets.

nck

Chuckles said...

Allen C Dexter makes it also simple in his mind, like him all you have to think and say is God doesn't exist and the sabbath is bogus, there, problem solved. Spoken like a true Athiest Allen, as all of your comments are.

Anonymous said...

"Eating Out On Sabbath Will Bring Death Just Like Eve Died For Eating That Apple"

How does ALL, 100% of humanity, of our obedience to their sabbath law create a Utopia?
What's next? Don't step on a crack or you'll break your mother's back!

DBP

Anonymous said...

Allen C. Dexter said:

"...I long ago decided I'd determine when I needed to rest and didn't worry anymore about when or if I did business on a particular day. I have a certain amount of time, a certain amount of resources, and I'll determine how all are spent without superstitious and fictional regard for any so-called holy period, thank you."

Anon11:17PM said:

"Is that really true? Or did you actually just cave in and decide to let those who hire you determine when you need to work and when you can have a rest?"

Translation: "I know you still believe in my gawd Allen, and that you just decided to pretend he doesn't exist so that you could go off and live that life of "depravity" that I'm sure you'd always wished for. I know that because I've always secretly wanted to live a debauched life, and I would if I weren't so afraid. So, when it comes to the sabbath, because you still believe in my gawd, you know you should be resting on Saturdays, but you just took the easy way out, by pretending you don't believe in him and then doing whatever you want. Secretly you know you feel guilty about it too."

Did it ever occur to you that some of us really, literally, do not believe in your gawd? Seriously, I could no more believe in a deity than I could believe in leprechauns, fairies, elves, and Santa. Chiding us for not believing in your gawd makes as much sense as if you were chiding us for not believing in Santa.

Your saying that Allen's or anyone else's decision to rest when it makes practical sense to do so without regard to Bronze and Iron Age myths is "caving" is like my accusing you of being mean to Santa by not setting out milk and cookies for him on Christmas eve. For exactly the same reason you aren't afraid of Santa leaving you a lump of coal for Christmas, I'm not afraid of your gawd's judgment. I know this must be difficult for you to comprehend, but I give as much regard for pleasing your gawd as you give for pleasing Santa, once again, for exactly the same reasoning: Why should either you, or I, or Allen, or anyone, jump through hoops to please someone who does not even exist?

Questeruk said...

Allen C. Dexter said...
"Well, there never was any seven day creation by any god, so the sabbath is completely bogus to begin with."

Well, Allen, I guess if you say so, that must be correct....

Anonymous said...

How does ALL, 100% of humanity, of our obedience to their sabbath law create a Utopia?

No more air conditioning or flushing toilets at Sabbath services, since the workers responsible for maintaining those systems will be resting. No more running water to wash with after shaking hands with someone who came to services sick.

No more electricity at Sabbath services to heat the potluck meal. No more electric lights to find your way around in the dark hall.

On the other hand, no microphone to blast the speaker's voice across the hall. No electric instruments playing during special music.

As Black Ops Mikey implied upthread, it's common that people with major moral problems will latch onto a minor problem that others are guilty of, then project their internal guilt onto those evil other people, so they can feel superior and not have to dwell on their much more serious moral failings.

DennisCDiehl said...

Numb Nuks Noted: "Warning
Nearly 6,000 years ago Satan told Eve to disobey God and “you will not surely die” (Gen. 3:4Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)). She ate the forbidden fruit and ultimately perished. "

Not one of these statements is literally true which then throws the wrench into the gears of the argument. The author does not know the evolution of the Serpent , which in the original tale was the wise counselor to the female Goddess, thus had to be blamed and taken down and out by the Hebrew version. The transition to the serpent being Satan came and later. The Serpent actually told the truth as witnessed by the fact that "in the day you eat thereof you shall die" did not come true even in the myth. (A day is as a thousand years and they died under a thousands years old is a stupid apologetic as we all die a tad under 1000).

Mythical serpent was telling mythical Eve that Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree of Life were God-food trees and not for humans. Humans were not to have such knowledge or potential in the myth. What "God" knew was that if they knew good from evil AND took of the Tree of Life, they would not die but live forever. God was less than forthcoming with them and the Serpent pointed this out. Later in the text we hear EL tell the council of the god, the "Us" in let us make man in our image , they had to be driven out, "lest they eat of the tree of life and become like US. I.E.. Knowing good from evil and living forever both of which were not for mere humans.

All this to note to say that the nothing in the first stament by the author of this Sabbath Screed is true literally. And one cannot make enforce some literal rule or truth on folks based on mythical tales. Talking serpents? Really?

Besides, if Adam and Eve did not yet have the knowledge of Good and Evil, why then get blamed for not getting how wrong it was told them to be for taking of the Trees in the first place? If you didn't know good from evil you'd not know the concept of disobedience. IMHO Bon Apetite!

nck said...

Dennis,

Perhaps a sall amendmment,

You say "the hebrew version". I believe that not to be entirely correct since the Hebrew version has many allusions to the snake being good. (Moses serpent staff etc.)

It was the later "Davidic" Central Command Temple Jews from Jerusalem who reorganized the Older Hebrew religion into a Central Command Jerusalem centered religion. Whereas the ancient Hebrews lit fires on hundreds of "high places" .

In the book of Kings and the other related book they rile and villify against the "pagan practices" which are actually the original practices from which the jewish jerusalem temple religion evolved. There was a power struggle of epic proportions and Jerusalem won. But the books are still full of traces of the "older" Hebrew religion.

That is my opinion.


nck

Anonymous said...

well said Robert.

I don't expect anyone here to understand...they are all so against God that they will accept no restraint on their wants/actions.

the vast majority of the COGs preach sabbath keeping out of one side of their mouths, and sabbath breaking out of the other side by setting up sabbath luncheons, holy day observances in restaurants, and promoting the going out on the sabbath.

one thing I never understood was the observing of the NTBMO in a restaurant...how many restaurants are de-leavened? so not only are they in a restaurant on a high holy day, they are very likely consuming leaven too....go figure.

sounds like the folks at ECG have it right...apparently they don't idolize HWA like so many of the other COGs.

Black Ops Mikey said...

It's worse than that. One of the ministers of the ECoG said that it was sin to prepare food on the Sabbath -- that all the edibles were to be prepared in advanced -- any food preparation was breaking the Commandment. That means that not only could you not go out to a restaurant for steak, you couldn't even barbeque it at home. The best you could hope for is to be able to heat up the prepared food. Are oven, crockpot and microwave legal?

One wonders about the corruption of the 9th commandment by the ECoG -- one quick look at the booklets and one can uncover such gems as "Evidence for Eras" of which there isn't any, but they manufacture it anyway. One quick look at "The Daughter of Babylon" by Bruce Renehan should put any questions to rest. "The Calendar Controversy" is less than forthright. For true amusement, try "The Truth About Lunar Sabbaths" -- as if anyone could know [and then there's that little problem with Noah in the ark, not being able to tell day from night for months and months].

Attending the Feast with them was highly instructive with the minister's 20 something son playing with his smart phone during services (with all of 30 people there) because he was bored and watching him 'cure' himself of his headache on the last day with a jug of orange juice and half a chocolate cake in the front row during services. He told another young man that he wanted to move to Montana because there were no helmet laws -- he wanted to ride his motorcycle without being fettered with something to protect his skull.

The minister gave an inspiring sermon about his son in school where his son was practicing swimming in a pool and gave out sinking to the bottom. Apparently, he was dead, but not to worry, with some prayer and anointing, he was 'brought back to life' -- a true miracle. When I told the minister's wife that at age 2 I drowned in the outdoor fish pool, I was declared dead by the doctor, but my mother prayed that if I lived she would make certain that I would spend my life in service to God. The ministers wife got this look like I had just broken a half dozen rotten eggs open. It demonstrates perfectly that in the ACoGs, the ministers are royalty and no matter how much they may seem to be 'nice', you need to be constantly reminded and on guard that you are not part of their special elite social circle -- forever on the outside looking in for all eternity. Rank has its privileges.

Know this: If you aren't part of the upper echelons of hierarchy, you are really nothing at all to them, except as you amuse them for their own purposes, no matter how it may seem.

Bah and humbug to them all. I registered online on the Internet and became an Apostle. I outrank most of them (especially Roderick Meredith). My coApostle suggested that everyone do it so we could all be equals as Apostles.

What do you think of that ECoG?

Connie Schmidt said...

This is Art Braidic's little cult. I hope that anyone interested in this group does their due diligence and research on the history of the leadership. It is also interesting to note just how difficult it is to find any names attached to the articles or web links at their site.

Prophet , Almost Arrested , Almost Audited , Bob Thiel had this to say about Braidic on Thiels website...
"I included the last line as I believe that Art Braidic has had four brides himself (the one I know, he is no longer with--and he has had two since her). Although I have personally always gotten along with Art Braidic, as he knows, I have never approved of his departure from the wife he had which I still know (nor did the old GCG)."

(Thiel Reference-http://www.cogwriter.com/6gnews.htm)

Sounds like Braidic would have made one hell of a good Mormon!

Anonymous said...

"Is that really true? Or did you actually just cave in and decide to let those who hire you determine when you need to work and when you can have a rest?"

I was self-employed for over forty years. My decision was based on the conclusion that I'd been bowing to a load of crap I had carelessly fallen for in my youthful naivete.

Allen C. Dexter

Anonymous said...

"Allen C Dexter makes it also simple in his mind, like him all you have to think and say is God doesn't exist and the sabbath is bogus, there, problem solved. Spoken like a true Athiest Allen, as all of your comments are."

I am a true atheist, secular humanist and anti-theist. I don't need fairy tales about all-powerful deities anymore.

Anonymous said...

You are right on thanks for your post.

Byker Bob said...

We probably shouldn't tell Art Braidic that God (Jesus), one of the parties of the Old Covenant, died on the cross, rendering the Old Covenant null and void. Or that He also fulfilled it. Or that there is a New Covenant, not like the Old, based on the Sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes, and the Two Great Commandments of the Lord. Or that all of mankinds' sins, past, present, and future are forgiven through Jesus' sacrifice. And that there is nothing any ACOG can do about it!

Judaizing Pharisees somehow never seem to understand that. It means that they wouldn't have totalitarian authority, and would just have to watch helplessly as the Holy Spirit does His work, from the bottom up, transforming one human heart at a time.

BB

Anonymous said...

If you eat Sunday through Friday, you will also eventually die. Speaking through a microphone is work. The power plant is working. Having air conditioning is work. Opening a plastic storage container, refrigerator door, or a cooler is work. At what precise distance does driving or walking to a church service become work? 10 feet or ten miles?

Anonymous said...

Anon7:48AM wrote:
"I don't expect anyone here to understand...they are all so against God that they will accept no restraint on their wants/actions."

Yes, I am so against Allah Thor, Osiris, Lord Brahma, Ahura Mazda, etc., because I do not want to accept any of their restraints on my wants/actions.

You're an atheist against almost every deity also, and the reason why you deny all those Gods is because you too do not want to accept any of their restraints on your wants/actions, am I correct?

Muslims could say the same thing about you. So could the Hindus. There must be thousand different religions with adherents today. No one can possibly follow them all. Which one would you say I should choose?

When I am criticized by a Christian for not being a Christian, should I suddenly become a Christian? By the same token, when tomorrow I am criticized by a Muslim for not being a Muslim, should I suddenly convert to be a Muslim?

Why or why not?

DennisCDiehl said...

nck said...
Dennis,

Perhaps a small amendment,"

I agree NCK. I was just limiting my comment to the Adam/Eve/Serpent/Trees story. You are correct and even as a kid I wondered why Moses snake rods got such positive play. It all seemed rather Harry Potterish to me now. Back then we would have said, "very Merlinish" Also, the raising of the serpent on a stick as the means by which one could be cured from snakebite seemed rather odd and against the "you shall not make any graven images....land, sea or air or beneath it all". Of course, the Pentetuch was not written by any Moses and had several authors each with a different agenda as we now know today.

Anonymous said...

Know this: If you aren't part of the upper echelons of hierarchy, you are really nothing at all to them, except as you amuse them for their own purposes, no matter how it may seem.

This is true, while in RCG I found out that even Pack has his servants (ie. ministers) interrupt him if they see he is in a conversation for too long with a member. Telling him "sir remember you have a reservation" to quickly get him off the hook with actually talking with commoners. I know this I was a "minister" there for a while.

Retired Prof said...

The value of performing rituals and observing taboos is that people who do these things together bind themselves into a cohesive group the members of which accord special consideration to other members. Unified as a tribe, they worship their tribal god. Human beings thrive as tribal members. This system worked pretty well when tribes occupied well-defined territories. People knew who was supposed to follow their practices and who was to be ignored, ridiculed or (often) attacked. After large populations rose following the development of agriculture, the system began to break down because city-states exceeded the limit of about 150 persons, beyond which intra-tribe rivalries broke out and disrupted the unity.

In the large nation-states of today, people keep trying to recreate the feel of tribal identity by carving out territories in abstract space, since so many of us are forced to share a geographical territory. We become Packer fans, or Libertarians, or Methodists, or philatelists, or some other kind of -ist. Often the identity involves intense rivalry: the Bloods and the Crips, the Israelis and the Palestinians, or on this blog the atheists and the theists.

Such rivalries often stimulate such enmity that they result in outright physical violence, but we do not need to let them. We do not even need to treat members of other tribes with verbal hostility. Oh sure, we can afford a few words of friendly rivalry, to avoid taking the fun out of our virtual tribalism. But to avoid escalating our jocular conflicts, we can simply adopt the stance of the old Polish saying, "Not my circus, not my monkey." It works. I once received an e-mail from a friend, a UCG minister. He admired an article I had written over at *The Painful Truth*. I wrote back that I was surprised, since on some posts I had said pretty scornful things about the Armstrongist belief system. He replied, "That's okay. We tolerate Gentiles." He and I are still friends.

Give heed to the plea for that same kind of tolerance made by Anonymous October 2, 2016 at 4:55 AM in the comments above. S/he asks, "Why should either you, or I, or Allen, or anyone, jump through hoops to please someone who does not even exist?" In other words, we agnostics and atheists belong to a tribe that does not accept your god. Please don't expect us to perform your rituals and observe your taboos.

Anonymous said...

I can say "minister" because I am ordained, however, it cannot be valid as I was ordained in a ministry of mere men. David C. Pack is not an apostle, simply a fraud. Especially since he is changing everything that HWA taught. He is more dangerous than even Flurry. At least the rest of the COG splinters, as bad as they are, try to have some form of love. RCG and PCG destroy lives, spiritually and physically. If you are going to join a cult, do yourself a favor and at least join UCG or LCG. They have the most members and at least give yourself a chance to have some fellowship and fun. RCG and PCG are the most legalistic and false groups you could possibly support. You will destroy your life and family and have nothing to show for it. It is true.

DCP will be flying on a rented private jet to all of the feast sites this year, as in years past. No other splinter group has a private jet. Common is a wonderful thing for those in power. Check out his new house of Google earth. He gets served first at every Sabbath potluck on fine China and stainless utensils. Everyone else, paper plates and whatever is left. Don't forget to stand when he walks by, he is God remember. (He says he is that prophet.)

Even his wife once said, "I am not going to stand for you!" Could it be she knows something we don't? I know that this post is not about DCP, but he is the worst thing to ever happen to the COG's. I would rather serve almost arrested Bob Thiel, he would at least treat me as a human being. (Or even Rod Meredith, I believe he is at least sincere in believing in himself that he is serving God the best that he can.) Whether or not this is true. DCP is simply a wolf in sheep's clothing. Dennis you know him, I am sure you would agree. He graduated from AC before I was born, but he had a silver spoon in his arrogant mouth since his childhood. He is an expert on everything and nothing at the same time. (Don't tell him.)

I was there when he gave special tours at HQ to those with substance to give. And also, his ex-girlfriend from days past in Loma, OH. She was not much impressed, however, let him tell the story. How about the couple who donated much, and was given a special tour of HQ, as is customary for big givers. And the wife said, where is the temple for Elijah. Of course, now Pack thinks he is Elijah, that Prophet, etc. The only thing he is not is Moses, that belongs to HWA, even Pack won't claim that. Herbert must have some title, Pack has all of the rest.

People who give all to Pack end up destroyed, your cannot survive RCG unless you give up everything, especially your mind... I never attended PCG, I hear they are about the same, but I believe RCG is even worse. It is obvious that Flurry has lost his mind long ago. Pack is much more calculated and sinister. I wonder where all the demons went that he supposedly cast out?

DennisCDiehl said...

In defense of Allen's style in the expression of his non belief, he is at the stage in life where it really matters little what anyone thinks as one processes their life experiences complete with regrets. "Regrets, I've had a few , but then again, too few to mention" does not apply here. If one is honest and a good observer, you will see that those who become the most vocal against what they were so formerly for were probably the most sincere in it to begin with. One reaches an age where a shit one does not give and seeing and hearing others major in the minors or simply get it all wrong with their literalisms and bad science is a bit off putting to say the least.

I had very educated ministers as a Presbyterian growing up and when asking them questions they could and would freely admit that there is one set of explanations for the laity and larger truths, both historical and literal explanations that would best be left alone and cannot be talk about publically. More than one non WCG minister, (WCG ministers and Splinters know little of these matters, and are totally undereducated in the Book they claim to know more than anyone about.) has told me and well understood my own perspectives on Paul, errancy issues, Bible origins and forgeries in the texts but could never speak them. I have heard, "I know you are right on this but I can't speak that because in this denomination I will lose my job." Others, such as Episcopal Priests, both male and female , understand it all very well and are pretty secure in explaining it to others.

It's a betrayal and it is maddening but I could not have learned any other way what I feel comfortable in knowing now. If I had not been there, I could not be here.

I like the concept of "I don't care what you believe, but tell me why you believe it".. Many even here can't really do that well but just do believe it and get vocal about the belief and not the solid reasons why they have come to believe it. Just quoting and proof texting the book is not good enough in reality once one understands where books and authors come from or don't come from. It's a common thing with true believers. When all else fails, attack the person.

I am grateful for the journey but that has taken a lot of hindsight. It is no mystery to me why some don't make it through waking up , mentally, emotionally or literally when it comes to the haunting effect and grip the Bible has on the mind in our culture.



DennisCDiehl said...

PS And it's not a case of "you just had a bad experience with THAT Church." No, that church/ministry experience woke me up to asking much bigger questions about the Bible than questions about who is the right offshoot of HWA etc. From my perspective, promoting Goldilocks and the Three Bears over Rumpelstiltskin or Hansel and Gretel over The Hare and the Tortoise is the same as picking one split, splinter, or sliver over another. They are all fairytales.

At around age 45 I am sure that no matter where I had been in life in ministry, and WCG was not my only choice when younger, I would have had the same experience. Different circus, different monkeys but same experience and same wake up to the realities of just what is the Bible really and what is it not.

Hoss said...

Eating on the Sabbath – isn’t that why we had potlucks? I remember one potluck where there wasn’t enough food, so the minister sent some of us to buy a load of KFC.

An old deaconess told some of us there used to be regular sermons on what to do on preparation day to prepare for Sabbath meals. She seemed pleased that “now the sermons are more spiritual”.

A few times I went to lunch after services with a group that included some AC graduates. The grads said that while they were at AC, eating out like that was just not allowed. But I guess they thought, that was at AC, this is the real world.

Black Ops Mikey said...

It's surprising how the small CoHAM sects can change over time.

A decade ago, I attended the ECoG Feast in Montana. One of the features of the group there is that there was one family which comprised a significant portion of the church, led by a matriarch whose children and grandchildren were in the church. They had rented a lodge and after the Last Great Day, had an informal meeting with food and booze available.

I had noticed that there was a significant amount of drinking during the Feast. After that Last Great Day, I was talking to the matriarch who had a plastic glass filled with white wine as she told me, "I'm an alcoholic". I don't drink and have had significant experiences with boozing alcoholics both in and out of Armstrongism (my manager at work came to work and was drunk by 10 AM). I felt like swiping that glass from her hand and asking her how she could drink alcohol under the circumstances.

Fast forward 4 years.

By that Feast, the minister / leader of the group had stopped drinking himself and the whole boozing family from 4 years before was gone. The minister expressed his opinion that the ECoG wouldn't last more than two more years (he was wrong about that as we learned on Silenced). It was at least 30% of that small group gone. My take was that as the minister and certain other members of the church moved away from alcohol, it was unacceptable and the boozers went elsewhere for their socialization.

Some may wonder at those of us who find alcoholism disgusting and reprehensible in the ACoGs. This was just a small benign example. Those in the know, know the boozing alcoholism of Herbert Armstrong, GTA, David Jon Hill and others at 'headquarters'. It is one of the central things that made the WCG what it was.

Unfortunately, many of the spit-offs have boozing alcoholic leaders who form the core of their particular socialization which brings with it the peculiar bad behavior and delusional elements of the religion.

If you are an alcoholic boozer, you have instant acceptance at the highest levels, depending upon how you 'hold your liquor' and how you socialize with the 1%.

It should be clear that this is unacceptable and one of the many reasons not to associate with this cult of losers.

And when the alcoholics stop drinking... well, let us just say that the way has been set for a clearer mind to see Armstrongism for what it really is and paves that way for an exodus.

After all, you don't really want to socialize with cult members with whom you have absolutely nothing in common.

Mrs. Donut said...

The legalism of the CoGs is based in superstition and magical thinking.
They really do believe they can make God like them more and earn their own salvation.

Byker Bob said...

When did they get rid of the marijuana as part of the ACOG socialization ritual? I think some of the teenagers and wayward AC students and grads introduced it sometime in the early '70s, like right after the Germans failed to show in maybe 1972? I left in 1975, and know nothing about what happened towards the end of the decade or thereafter. Did Herbie's "back on track" thing kill all of that off? I know they had shut down Imperial and Ambassador for a while, because at one point the administration had completely lost all control. It sounds from some of the posts as if the Meredith spawn still cops a buzz from time to time.

DennisCDiehl said...

There is magic in "Mind yourvown business, we're going out for lunch after church"

Anonymous said...

"Mythical serpent was telling mythical Eve that Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree of Life were God-food trees and not for humans. Humans were not to have such knowledge or potential in the myth. What "God" knew was that if they knew good from evil AND took of the Tree of Life, they would not die but live forever."

ONLY the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was forbidden initially- the Tree of Life would seem to have been a valid option beforehand.

Ronco

Byker Bob said...

Yeah, or, "Hey it's a personal matter of faith, kind of like what Paul had to say about eating meats that were sacrificed to idols."

BB

nck said...

Reading some of the posting here I am tempted to say that God after all the creating, in his joy and resting on his day, looked at man's capacity of the brain and decided to inspire Genesis just as it is.

Observing now in 2016, I am inclined to say he would in retrospect re-write the entire book and include passages like "and after the Great scrummaster in his agile way created the amoebe and neanderthal he rested peacefully and decided, let's see what happens/evolves and where amendment is needed around the year 0."

On the other hand. If he had inspired the 2nd text the entire narrative of mans development would of course have taken another route.


Ah well.

To quote from Charlie Wilson on our frame of limited information and the bigger picture.

Gust Avrakotos: There's a little boy and on his 14th birthday he gets a horse... and everybody in the village says, "how wonderful. The boy got a horse"

And the Zen master says, "we'll see."

Two years later, the boy falls off the horse, breaks his leg, and everyone in the village says, "How terrible."

And the Zen master says, "We'll see."

Then, a war breaks out and all the young men have to go off and fight... except the boy can't cause his legs all messed up. and everybody in the village says, "How wonderful."

Now the Zen master says, "We'll see."

nck


Anonymous said...

Black Ops Mikey said...
October 2, 2016 at 4:21 PM

"They need to sober up! They are intoxicated with lies."

DennisCDiehl said...

Eternal Life without the Knowledge of Good and Evil sounds dangerous, like a split, splinter or sliver or even a Mr Pack!
😲

Lacey said...

Pack,Flurry, etc have blown their minds with power and self involvement.
I think anyone in that organisation knows it but is afraid.
The C of G is filled with people who are not self starters. By and large the membership is teeming with people who need to be told what to do and when to do it.
It is a cult and attracts cult minded people and rebels who are rebelling against their family and friends and society
Procrastination is the church motto. People quit and take jobs because ministry tell them to.
They marry and divorce as the ministry tell them to.
Those who won't go along with the micro control(the rebels) have 'bad attitudes' because they think for themselves.
I often wondered if HSA thought that people were gaining experience for the kingdom by being automatons.
These groups think they can buy salvation with deeds. The good works don't come from the heart but from the desire for salvation and saving their own skin.
This is the difference in a Christian whose heart has the law written in it and the members of the WWCG who read it off a stone tablet.

Anonymous said...

I quit believing in the god of the Bible a long time ago. Since I've become older, I no longer have the energy to do the pillaging, raping and murdering I used to do, (given that I had no reason not to without the Deity constantly peering over my shoulder, listening in on my thoughts, etc.). Oh, the freedom and fun of those days: the lying, cheating, murdering, poisoning, deceiving, etc. But that's over. Just happy memories now.

Meighen

Anonymous said...

Do they know that HWA went on shopping sprees at Harrods on the Sabbath and enjoyed spending tithe payers money on expensive trinkets. People who knew him well reported this, and also he said that he didn't have to worry about church members seeing him because none of them would be shopping on the Sabbath, plus they couldn't afford to shop at Harrods. They really have a false image of HWA. It seems he was much more normal than his latter day followers. I doubt if he would have even gotten along with these idiots and yet they worship him.

RSK said...

Less than ten days to the ItsTimeCOG earthquake! Everybody got their canned food and bottled water in order?

Anonymous said...

I'm not surprised that HWA went shopping on the Sabbath. He took his daughter dancing on Friday night while he was conducting tent revivals trying to get others to bend their lives into Sabbath limitations and said, "Those dummies will believe anything I tell them." He also drank coffee on the Day of Atonement. He was a total lying hypocrite all his life. It was a business to him, and we were the suckers who bought his con. You can read up on a whole lot of this by googling The Painful Truth website.

Allen C. Dexter

Anonymous said...

"Eternal Life without the Knowledge of Good and Evil sounds dangerous, like a split, splinter or sliver or even a Mr Pack!"

Ignorance is bliss, they say.

Careful now, don't crack on Mr pack- after all, he has a stunning Glorious Campus right next to the Wadsworth Giant Eagle- so there!

Ronco

Anonymous said...

What if the Giant Eagle builds a nest on the roof of Davey Pack's "mini-me" auditorium?

Will Pack call animal control- or climb a ladder, hop on the roof and convert the Giant Eagle to 'God's Ways'?

Will Davey's "converted" Giant Eagle be a factor in the Battle of Armstrongageddon, and will Davey's Giant Eagle be victorious over Mothra and Rodan in the great sky battle?

Will The Armstrong Auditorium Egrets come alive and turn into jumbo jets to fly all RCG members to The Place of Safety while this epic battle occurs?
(Joel Osteen's latest sermon seems to answer, "Yes!", on this point.)

In The Kingdom, we'll all be able to see a movie about these events-

Title: The Greatest Story Ever Sold by Davey
Director: Clint Eastwood
Greatest moments in and about the film-
1) Clint Eastwood talks to an empty Coronation Chair.
2) People are asking why Destoroyah wasn't involved in the fight. Davey responds: "Destoroyah didn't have SAG credentials, or even a green card, so he was deported back to Japan."
3) Destoroyah has a sad while getting dumped into the Lake of Fire.
4) Sully crash lands one of the "Pack airplanes" in the Tigress river, after flying into a flock of people flying away from his crap.
All are rescued by local boats.