Monday, January 23, 2017

Is Using the Bible As A Tool For Criminal Defense Appropriate?




I was sent a link to a story that I had read earlier in the day about a man and his son who have asked to represent themselves in court themselves in court using the Bible to justify their crimes.  While much of our government and legal system lightly base their standards on Christian principles many as asking if this is appropriate in this case.  Here is an interesting quote about the use of the Bible in legal decisions.




It is strikingly similar to Muslims who want to have all legal proceedings decided by Sharia Law.  That is the only legal defense that they deem appropriate and just.  According to them Sharia Law overrides any laws on the book in the United States and especially Christian laws.

So the question to ask is,  can the Bible and its record of rape, slavery, justified killings, confiscating property, etc. be used as a defense for crimes that citizens commit, especially when they are "Christians?"

The man and his son have ties to Messianic beliefs, refer to their god as Yeshua. Reporters have not been able to find out exactly what church they attended.

A father and son accused of raping a teenage girl over a three-year period and keeping her shackled in a basement have made it clear that they don't have faith in the law or in the people who practice it.
When they face an Ohio jury as they defend themselves against criminal charges that carry long prison sentences, they will rely on one book: The Bible.
Timothy Ciboro and his son, Esten Ciboro, both of Toledo, are each charged with multiple counts of rape. The trial is scheduled to start this week, months after the girl, who is Timothy Ciboro's stepdaughter, managed to unshackle herself and escape while her alleged abusers were gone, authorities said.
During a hearing Friday, the Ciboros made the unusual request of having access to the Bible, which they plan to cite as they defend themselves in front of a jury. The Bible, Esten Ciboro told a judge, is "the only law book that truly matters," the Toledo Blade reported.  Father and son accused of rape want 'only law book that matters' at trial: The Bible
Is the Bible the only law book that Christians should be accountable to?  Various COG cult leaders think so.  James Malm and Bob Thiel both thing this is approach as does Meredith.  They feel they are higher than the civil law and are accountable to Biblical law first. just like the Ciboro's.
This is the same thing I head many ministers in the COG claim over the decades.

During a hearing Friday, the Ciboros made the unusual request of having access to the Bible, which they plan to cite as they defend themselves in front of a jury. The Bible, Esten Ciboro told a judge, is “the only law book that truly matters,” the Toledo Blade reported.
“There’s a great deal of strategy in Scripture and I use those strategies in everything I do,” Esten Ciboro told the judge, according to the Toledo Blade’s coverage of the hearing. “It’s a vital part of everything I do.”
Timothy Ciboro said he and his son intend to “use God’s holy word to ask questions, questions that we believe are absolutely vital to our case,” the paper reported.
Is the Bible the only law book that matters?



Read more here: http://www.kentucky.com/news/nation-world/national/article128194164.html#storylink=cpy


Read more here: http://www.kentucky.com/news/nation-world/national/article128194164.html#storylink=c
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35 comments:

Anonymous said...

According to George Gordon's School of Common Law, www.georgegordon.com, you can, quite successfully too. He legally doesn't pay taxes and all that stuff, he has even given legal advice to Larry Flynt at one time.

DBP

nck said...

Everything these people claim about their bible is right.
The book had a profound impact on the founding of many nations.

So have plastic factories, farmers, policemen from Ireland and railroadworkers.

In the profound wisdom of thousands of years of experience with the "manuals" of all mankinds subgroups we have declared that they are all subject to the "rule of law" as established working manual for the peaceful cohabitation of adherents to all kinds of manuals as sources of knowledge.

The more interesting question in this particular question is where in the bible does it say that people are to cooperate or coexist with the powers that establish "the rule of law". That is "we the people."

One such instance I can quote readily is where Jesus says to "give the emperor what is his to receive." Scholars can perhaps find even better examples than I can quote among the sayings of Moses.

There is always the posibility to leave for another patch of land where one can live completely according to ones own manual, or be put to death or put away, if one infringes upon the established rights of other cohabitants of the lands on which one has decided to dwell. That is by a native American arrow, the electric chair or a commercial penal institution.

nck

Sweetblood777 said...

Where in the Bible does it allow rape? How can these two turkeys falsely imply that the Bible permits them to do what they are accused of?

Ed said...

If you can't defend your actions using the constitution and the bill of rights maybe you deserve to be behind bars!

Anonymous said...

Regardless of how you interpret it, the Bible does not condone rape, kidnapping, or holding someone against his/her will (even slavery is entered into more as an indentured servant arrangement usually because someone has driven themselves into debt, etc). The Bible has very clear laws regarding sex and fornication, etc. Unlike even what many COG ministers think and teach, the Bible does not favor men over women, or vise versa. These two sick and disgusting beasts should be hung for their evil crimes against this girl, and I hope the jury finds them guilty and they serve the longest possible sentence.

Byker Bob said...

I can't help but think that this is certainly a lousy test case for defending oneself in court using the Bible. You can almost understand some misguided Muslim wanting to apply the Koran and Sharia law in an American court of law, if sharia is what he was raised under in his particular culture, and if that provided greater leniency, for let's say an "honor" killing. But there is no logical defense to be derived from the Bible for the crime of which these defendents are accused. The phrase "gross distortion" comes to mind.

BB

The Painful Truth said...


"Is Using the Bible As A Tool For Criminal Defense Appropriate?"

Sure, why not? Uneducated Cult leaders use it to steal money.

Use the book to your advantage or disadvantage. If the culture thinks it is the word of God, then those parts of the culture would accept it as so. But I am not one of those who accept the book as of a divine nature, and a boatload of others in the bible belt don't buy into the lie either. Two sets of laws in a culture make that culture two different societies. The society that is to judge these men will also convict them.

Anyone who enslaves another is a piece of shit. Common man or cult leader. They are of the same lowly mold.

Black Ops Mikey said...

"Judah’s Sceptre and Joseph’s Birthright" by John Harden Allen should also be allowed in court along with the Bible for all Armstrongist offenders to defend themselves, since it is the key to understanding the Bible.

nck said...

1)


What sad attempts to defend the bible as an apropriate book of law for a civil modern society!

Judges 21:10-24

They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, ‘Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn’t find enough wives for them when we dest60royed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'” So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.


Numbers 31:7-18

“These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.


Deuteronomy 20:10-14

When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

THIS IS EXACTLY LIKE SHARIA LAW


Deuteronomy 22:23-24 (Death to rape victim)

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.


2 Samuel 12:11-14

I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight.


OH MY GOD

nck1

nck said...

2

Deuteronomy 21:10-14


“When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive’s garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.”


Exodus 21:7-11

SEX SLAVES


When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.


Zechariah 14:1-2

GOD ASSISISTING RAPE AND PLUNDER

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city.


SO AGAIN AS MY INITIAL STATEMENT IMPLIED> THE BIBLE WILL NEVER EVER BE THE SOLE BASIS FOR A CIVIL SOCIETY ANYMORE.

nck

Black Ops Mikey said...

Well, fine.

We will use the Bible in the court of law to execute false prophets.

How's that.

And we have several hundred right now who can be convicted and put to death in very short order.

Why not?

Anonymous said...

It was OK at Rimmon Rock!

Anonymous said...


Remember to read Leviticus 18:1-30 to see what God said were UNLAWFUL SEXUAL RELATIONS. This might save you from attributing to God all the perverse things that are in your own porn-addled mind that you would like to do and say that God approves of.

God instructed Moses to tell the Israelites, “You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God” (Leviticus 18:3-4, NIV).

Anonymous said...

It is the book that matters however, it is translated and used for personal and political agendas by most thereby rendering it almost useless.
And, since the Old Testament is fulfilled, the laws and punishments of the Torah are no longer in effect.
The law of Christ Jesus in the New Testament is simple: love God and love your neighbor as yourself.
This is usually how the law is judged. Hence you can't speed, kill wantonly or etc.

You had better hope this is not a "Judeo"-Christian nation. In Orthodox Judaism it is illegal for a gentile to 'observe the sabbath and holy days'. The penalty is instant death by beheading.

I used to get a chuckle out of Church of God members who thought Jews loved them for keeping the sabbath and holy days. No, dream on. You are heartily disliked by the most religious. You are considered a beheimah (beasts)
Trust me on that one as I know what I am saying.

Anonymous said...


LEVITICUS 18:1-30, NIV


18:1 The LORD said to Moses,

18:2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'I am the LORD your God.

18:3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices.

18:4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God.

18:5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD.

18:6 "'No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD.

18:7 "'Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.

18:8 "'Do not have sexual relations with your father's wife; that would dishonor your father.

18:9 "'Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.

18:10 "'Do not have sexual relations with your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter; that would dishonor you.

18:11 "'Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father's wife, born to your father; she is your sister.

18:12 "'Do not have sexual relations with your father's sister; she is your father's close relative.

18:13 "'Do not have sexual relations with your mother's sister, because she is your mother's close relative.

18:14 "'Do not dishonor your father's brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.

18:15 "'Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son's wife; do not have relations with her.

18:16 "'Do not have sexual relations with your brother's wife; that would dishonor your brother.

18:17 "'Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.

18:18 "'Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.

18:19 "'Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.


Continued below...

Anonymous said...


...continued from above.


18:20 "'Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor's wife and defile yourself with her.

18:21 "'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.

18:22 "'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

18:23 "'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.

18:24 "'Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled.

18:25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants.

18:26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things,

18:27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled.

18:28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.

18:29 "'Everyone who does any of these detestable things--such persons must be cut off from their people.

18:30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.'"

Anonymous said...

Ugggh so now the are messianic Sabbath keepers kidnapping and holding prisoner a teenager to rape as some sort of sex pet for their sexual perversion. I truly am wondering that some sort of high level demon is wandering through the churches of God. When you think you've heard the worst it gets even worse. Who've we got to blame ? Only ourselves for the man worship, the hypocrisy, the lousy leadership, worshipping ourselves instead of God. Perilous times indeed.

Anonymous said...


Anonymous on January 24, 2017 at 10:41 AM said...“It was OK at Rimmon Rock!”


Judges 21:25 (NIV) ends the story by explaining that, “In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as he saw fit.”

Anonymous said...

"The Judicial System" is modeled after The Levitical Priesthood?

DBP

Lake of Fire Church of God said...

President Lincoln was also an attorney who once said, "He who represents himself has a fool for a client”.

Our beloved President was a wise man, and I think we will see his wisdom in practice again when these two morons walk into Court.

Richard
Lake of Fire Church of God

Anonymous said...

Yes, thats the excuse made by the writer. And yet, they even consulted the god before their civil war in the same story! Did they just misplace "God's LAW" at some point in the previous century and manage to collectively forget everything, and all the god could do was give the occasional oracle if you happened to stumble into his closet? Come on, that's just weak revisionism.

Anonymous said...

1.03 PM
Worshipping ourselves?? I believe that by definition, worship must be external to ourselves. Accusations of self worship is another manifestation of the taboo on self love. The reason? People are expected to be slaves to the losers of the world. Only losers have a right to life, such as the right to ask, to desire, to prosper, to self defence, to liberty, etc. This is the real meaning of Herbs 'give way.' This is Herbs church culture. This is the voice of personal experience. My last minister was vile, and open about the matter. Most other ministers used guile to the same effect.

Anonymous said...

you folks are really good and finding the kooks out there, and trying to tie them to The Church....

Anonymous said...

...and then are marched into jail for the rest of their lives. Only if they are guilty of course.

DBP

Anonymous said...

Especially given the exacerbated sort of crimes of which they stand accused, what they are claiming they're about to do in court is going to constitute no defense at law whatsoever, and they're going to get "the book" thrown at them. Strategy indeed. Whether they're guilty of these crimes is one thing, upon which I will not here speculate, but whether they're guilty of being ignoranuses and legal idiots, the latter is an open-and-shut case. Motion for summary judgment...

Byker Bob said...

They probably plan to use Gen. 1:29 as their defense for using medical marijuana without the proper ID card or prescription.

BB

nck said...

Chances are that a regular army like Pharao's Egyptian army would NOT engage in rape and pillage if not specifically instructed to do so. Of course Stalin gave the Berlin maidens as a prize for THREE entire days to the regular army for the sins of the Germans. But a band of rebels like the Bosnian Serbs is more likely to engage in atrocities while entering the promised land. But I must watch that latest movie about Moses the army leader again to learn the truth, it's been a while since I saw that movie.


Anyway. The bible one of the great sources of morality and truth. Great thing we live in an age where we can construct and balance our own laws choosing from the best and tried over a 5000 year period.

nck

nck said...

My comments were about non-consensual intercourse. (rape)

LEVITICUS 18:1-30 seems to be directed at family relations that thousands of years of experience had shown that the practice thereof would in its ultimate consequence result in the weakening of the tribe and genepool and therefore result in death and disease. Common knowledge for every person today. And Tutanchamun suffered the worst of diseases because of earlier "family relations". Still it did not keep the Egyptians from bringing in new Syrian brides. (Well actually Moses stepmother the "sister" of pharaoh would of course have been a Syrian princess, as the ransom and exchange of princess and princesses were the Nato aliance of the day.)

nck

Anonymous said...

I am very pleased with all Church of God members or ex members who know the law and remembered Leviticus. The bible actually condemns their practice and condemns their act of wickedness. So if they use the Bible as defense, it will backfire to their criminality. Leviticus 18:17 You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shall you take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is WICKEDNESS. TOUCHE

Black Ops Mikey said...

Using "Dianetics" would go a long way to establishing justice in the United States legal system.

Of course, just as using the Armstrongist interpretation of the Bible would require submission to the sovereignty of Herbert Armstrong, so would using "Dianetics" would require submission to the sovereignty of L. Ron Hubbard (which, in many ways were very similar, creating a religion based on science fiction).

Of course, adding the Book of Mormon, the Torah and Koran to the list of sovereign principalities to our legal system would create chaos and is irrational, just as using the Bible, specifically (and not some of the few precepts from it that made into American law), would subvert justice in ways that we should not even want to imagine.

Anonymous said...

All hail Xenu!

RSK said...

I would find it more interesting if those rushing to show off their half-memorized passage/defense of the Bible morality would answer the question posed by the post header.

Anonymous said...


“Is Using the Bible As A Tool For Criminal Defense Appropriate?”


Probably not when you are guilty of committing the abominable sins that the Bible quotes God as saying not to commit.

Anonymous said...

Rapists Who Brought Bible to Court “As a Reference” Will Spend the Rest of Their Lives in Prison

January 28, 2017

53-year-old Timothy Ciboro and his son, 28-year-old Esten Ciboro, were found guilty yesterday on all counts of “rape, kidnapping, and endangering children” over a period of three years. Their victims include a “13-year-old who said she was shackled in the basement at various times.”

Their only request in the courtroom was having a Bible at their side.

Looks like that didn’t help them one bit since the judge gave them both the maximum allowable sentences.

Career Criminals said...

Are Career Offender Laws Constitutional?