Thursday, July 26, 2018

COG Prophet Upset That Another COG Member Knows More Than He Does

It has been another tough day in Arroyo Grande, CA as the self-appointed prophet to the Churches of God has been preempted with another book by a COG member.

Almost-arrested but not arrested Elijah Elisha, Habakkuk, Amos, and doubly blessed Bob Thiel is swiftly seeking to discredit Hayden "Chip" Fox and his new "bestseller" The Ultimate Guide to the Book of Revelation.

Elijah Elisha Thiel is adamant that no other COG member or leader has the correct revealed knowledge for the end times.  The only person on this earth to be God's mouthpiece, due to his double blessing, is Elijah Elisha Thiel.

Elijah Elisha Thiel black marks Fox right out of the starting gate by labelling him a "preterist". Most COG members have no idea what a preterist is, but it sounds dangerous coming from the mouth of a COG prophet, so it must be something heretical.

Here are some comments from Chip Fox about his prophetic interpretations in his book:
Seals start immediately after Christ’s resurrection and continue up to sealing of God’s servants in sixth seal just prior to destruction of Jerusalem and nation of Judah.  Seventh seal includes the seven trumpets that run from when the Romans first started (66 CE) conquering or destroying cities of the nation of Judah, then (70 CE) the destruction of Jerusalem.  Third trumpet is the pollution of Christianity starting with the Christian/Pagan mix in the 300s CE.  Trumpets continue up to the sixth trumpet which ends with the Ottoman empire in 1923.  Within the sixth trumpet, prior to 1923, there is an assessment of Christianity, and then a major change in Christianity because of the two witnesses. 
The seventh trumpet is not chronologically subsequent to the sixth trumpet, but concerns a much broader time span from prior to Christ’s birth to sometime after the conclusion of the sixth trumpet to the end of our age.  The seventh trumpet includes the seven bowls or vials, which are a subset within the seven trumpets.  They explain in detail what was given in brief in the second trumpet, i.e., the destruction of Jerusalem, the temple, and the political nation of Judah.  It also includes, so importantly, the shift completely away from physical Israel and toward the importance, promises, and reality concerning spiritual Israel. 
The seventh trumpet gives the whole background of Christ and the people of God, and all the things leading up to the destruction in 70 CE.  It gives details of the destruction. And then there is a chapter in Revelation, chapter 13, that explains why this destruction had to be done.  Chapter 14 gives the aftermath of the destruction.  Then we come to the symbolic description of New Jerusalem, which is stated to be the bride of Christ.  A physical city is not a bride. The body of all Christians, spiritual Israel, is the bride of Christ, but the symbol of a city that far surpasses the beauty of the Jerusalem of the first century shows how much more precious spiritual Israel is than physical Israel could ever have been. 
At the most, only one of the seven seals of Revelation have been opened as of now. Hence, the idea that any of the seventh seal trumpets already were blown, etc. is simply wrong
People who believe that most of the Book of Revelation was already fulfilled are termed ‘preterists.’ 
In general, preterists believe that prophecies that have not been fulfilled yet, have been historically fulfilled. Full preterists do not believe in a coming Great Tribulation (Matthew 24:21), whereas partial preterists believe some future prophecies were only for the past.
OMG!  How dare Fox interpret the events in Revelation as things that have already happened in history!  Oh, the heresy!  Never mind the fact that every single interpretation that Armstrong, Thiel, Blackwell, Hoeh, Waterhouse, Flurry, Pack, Meredith and others have made has been 100% wrong makes no difference.  Thiel is not wrong but Fox is.  Typical Armstrongism, but that will not stop Elijah Elisha Thiel!  He continues:

COG groups like ICG, CGI, UCG, COGaIC, CG7, CGG, and the old CEM do not officially teach and/or do not believe in the idea of Church eras (The Churches of Revelation 2 & 3), though they sometimes teach about the churches of Revelation. They tend to take more of a preterist (past) view of those churches, despite the fact that many statements made to them had to have future prophetic ramifications (e.g. Revelation 1:19; 3:3; 3:10). Because of that they do not teach certain prophetic aspects of this, most do not see their own problems and will have to go through the Great Tribulation.
Let me also add that, like many Roman Catholics, many COG groups believe that certain remaining parts of Daniel 9:27 were fulfilled anciently.
Furthermore, many COG groups and independents do not believe that the Gospel of the Kingdom of God still needs to be preached to the world as a witness per Matthew 24:14 (e.g. GCW, PCG), do not really make that a high priority (e.g. COGWA, CGG), or do so in less than truly loving the truth (cf. Jeremiah 48:10). Some either believe that Herbert W. Armstrong fulfilled it–which, in my view, is another preterist view–or it is a job only remaining for the two witnesses, which is an improper interpretation of what that verse actually says.
Some teach that there is no biblically-required King of the South as that supposedly was fulfilled, while at least one group is unsure (CGF-NW)–but this is an error. This is not considered by most to be a preterist error, but since that prophecy has not been fulfilled, I consider that to be one.
Most COG groups fail to teach Habakkuk 2:2-8 is an end-time prophecy, hence are not properly getting the warning out to the USA and UK. PCG totally misses it, and LCG, while it once would teach it, has backed off because of what appears to be internal politics–it basically believes that Habakkuk 2:2-8 was fulfilled anciently, despite it clearly being a prophecy for the appointed time of the end. So, yes, in that way, LCG is being a bit preterist.
According to Jesus’ words to the churches in Revelation 2 & 3, relatively few Christians will (the remnant of the Philadelphia Church Era only) truly understand the Book of Revelation and various other matters.
Elijah Elisha Thiel wants to know if you will listen to him and heed his words!
I do not believe that preterist books, like the one Chip Fox is promoting, are correct.
Will you truly listen and truly understand the truth?
Or do you prefer preterist and/or other improper interpretations of prophecy?
The apostate Thiel has been blabbering for some time now that any who do not heed his words will NOT know the correct time the tribulation will start and will suffer the consequences.  No one in their right mind should be listening to anything that comes out of Thiel's mouth and his improper interpretations of prophecy.  No one!

Hayden "Chip" Fox has this to say about his book and as you read it you will see it is a typical COG belief that he knows everything about everything regarding the book of Revelation.

Up until now, the book of Revelation has been one of the most mysterious books of the Bible. 
Interpretations of time-line sequences are have been varied and confused, and there is a widespread misunderstanding of what in the book is symbolism vs what is literal. This book will clarify the entire book of Revelation for you, and take the mystery out if it. Once you’ve read it, you will understand the logical sequencing of the book, and how amazingly accurate and applicable are all of its symbols. You will understand the time lines and the meanings of the prophecies from the time Revelation was written all the way up to today and beyond. This is unlike any other book you’ve ever read about Revelation, and will give you greater insight into the book than ever before.
I am more inclined to give Fox more credit than I do India diploma-mill Thiel.  Fox actually has real degrees and knows scientific study techniques, unlike Thiel who relies upon homoeopathic quackery models for his "study" and Herbert Armstrong booklets.  Even so, whenever a COG member or a former COG member comes out and says, "up until now" or "revealed at last" some biblical form of interpretation my resistance goes up.  We have had 80 some years of men doing this sort of stuff and there is no end in sight!


DennisCDiehl said...

Bob best be careful in introducing Church folk to Preterist perspectives on prophecy coming alive. As I mentioned in a previous post, just the concept of New Testament hyperbole in the Gospels and especially the Book of Revelation will probably get most gyrating in their seats.

As of this evening, I have not found the proof which must be there that the Meso-Americans, Chinese and Aboriginals of Australia were taxed by Caesar when he taxed the whole world. But too...all the stars in the heavens are to fall to earth according to Revelation so that should be interesting all by itself. If, as stated, neither the Sun nor the Moon will give their light (obviously it was not understood by the author that the moon's light is reflected sun light), I don't see how anyone is going to be able to see who's who to fight, but then that might just be me.

Hyperbole and Preterist careful not to put those words in the minds of your readers.

Hoss said...

Although Bob has no hesitation in use of Catholic, Mayan, Hindu and other extra-Biblical literature, he appears to be very selective and skeptical of Hebrew thought and literature.
Regarding Hebrew thought on prophecy, it can be seen as not just having a single fulfillment, or a dual near-time and later fulfillment, but a near-time, end-time, and "in-between time" fulfillment. So, in that view Biblical prophecy can have three actual fulfillments, which could accommodate views which may be termed preterist. Bob earlier attached the "preterist" label to some revised CG7 interpretations of Revelation.
Even with the concept of dual fulfillment, the preterist view can be seen as the near-time fulfillment of a prophecy.

Connie Schmidt said...

Chip Fox may be a Preterist, but Thiel is definitely a "PRETENDERIST "!

DennisCDiehl said...

When one looks without the filters of reading the NT like it was being addressed to us today, we see that all the prophetic musings and encouragements were meant for those who were listening. After reality set in for them and there was no soon or shortly, the Church evolved apologetics to account for the disappointment. This allowed anything in the NT to be forwarded to anytime in history and seem relevant to anyone as the world in which they lived unfolded with all it's problems and fearful happenings. The carrot of "soon" and "shortly" has gotten a lot of play over the long haul of human experience and Christianity.

Even in the OT, Daniel, written not in the 6th century BCE where it is set, but in the 2nd during the time of the Maccabees, we have very detailed prophecies and seeming foreknowledge of whole kingdoms to come and go. The reason the information is so detailed in Daniel 1-11 is that it had already happened in history and was being back written as if it was yet to happen. This is the common understanding in historical theology. After Daniel 11 we get the very vague chapter 12 where Daniel is told that none of this is for him and will simply die and then be raised again. That puts the "it's all in the future" spin on the Book but it really is a reflection of the fact that as much about what the author could know about events was known and he could not write in detail any longer about what had not yet happened. In other words, he did not actually know the outcome or the future, which is normal in real life and thus we go from the already over details of chapter 11 to the vagaries of Chapter 12.

Revelation is a remake of Daniel where the in the first, the Jews are being encouraged to hang in there during the Roman occupation which was going badly for them and in Revelation it is the Christians being encouraged to hang in under the same circumstances. Rome won both confrontations and the prophecies failed to materialize as advertised.

Anonymous said...

If one looks at history, there is more than just dual fulfillment. History often repeats many many times since human psychology doesn't change. You observe this in the stock market where price patterns repeat over many years. The patterns are never identical since the players are different, but very similar. This also includes patterns compressing and extending in time.

Dennis, Caesar taxing 'the whole world' is understood to mean the Roman empire. He can hardly tax unconquered countries. Why play these nitpicking games.

Dennis Diehl said...

Of course it means the Roman world. The hyperbole in scripture is the author playing games with the reader. Not me pointing it out

Anonymous said...

In Middle East culture in Christ's day, and even today, people express themselves in the superlative ie, they exaggerate. There is no deception or 'playing games with the reader' since everyone understands the rules. It's a cultural thingy.

The only ones playing games or who 'cheat' are the ministers, who pretend that the 'exaggerated' claims of healing in the bible are fact. Just as 'ask anything in my name' isn't literally true, (ie, there are many unstated terms and conditions) so are the 'promises' on healing. I believe the ministers know this, but continue this deception.

Hoss said...

Looking into some of the things Bob has denounced has been informative. Of course, Bob is not unique in that, some books discredited by PCG come to mind.
In a more recent post, Bob once again referred to the Temple Institute to show that a Third Temple is not necessary to fulfill prophecies in Daniel. Waiting for a Third Temple would take a while; after the June 1967 war, HWA wrote that time was short to get the Temple built(by 1972). Bob quoted part of HWA's statement and claimed HWA never taught that a Third Temple must be built. I guess he was trusting that no one checks his sources - as one blog comment said, Bob goes back and rewrites his web articles; he can't undo things from the PT archives.
Anyway, to Bob, thanks for bringing to our attention another person with a different perspective on Biblical prophecy!

'All the world' - in first year French we learned 'tout le monde' - which literally means 'all the world' - is used to mean 'everybody' within the context of its use, not everyone on Earth.

RSK said...

Yes, all the stars will fall directly on Earths surface at once. That woukd definitely be apocalyptic eh?

Yes and No to HWA said...

Below is from Simon Peter - Cephas, Petros and Petra - and the “Keys to the Kingdom”:

Excursus: ‘all’

Ac 9:35 And all that dwelt at Lydda and Saron saw him, and turned to the Lord.

Jer 42:17 So shall it be with all the men that set their faces to go into Egypt to sojourn there ... and none of them shall remain or escape from the evil that I will bring upon them.

Jer 44:14 So that none of the remnant of Judah, which are gone into the land of Egypt to sojourn there, shall escape or remain, that they should return into the land of Judah, to the which they have a desire to return to dwell there: for none shall return but such as shall escape.

“Not that we need interpret the “all” as meaning literally every single inhabitant, for, as Calvin [I, p.277] wisely comments, ‘when Scripture mentions all, it is not embracing, to a man, the whole of whatever it is describing, but uses “all” for many, for the majority, or for a crowd of people” (John R. W. Stott, The Message of Acts, BST, p.183).

Ge 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

Dt 2:25 This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee.

“It may sound strange to say, but the word “all” is not always absolute in biblical usage. Look, for instance, at Deuteronomy 2:25, where the Lord says, “This very day I will begin to put the terror and fear of you on all the nations under heaven.” This verse even uses “under heaven” in the same way that Genesis 7:19 does. Yet in context, few would contend that this refers to more that the nations of Canaan and perhaps a few others. In Genesis 41:57, Joseph opens the storehouses of Egypt and “all the countries came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe in all the world.” I do not know of anyone who contends that therefore the Eskimos must have been included.

“Similar use of language can be seen in Akkadian texts. Most instructional is a text called the Sargon Geography, which names the lands of the known world one by one and concludes that “Sargon, King of the Universe, conquered the totality of the land under heaven.” Based on such examples, it becomes clear that it was perfectly acceptable, and not at all deceptive, to use the word “all” to encompass all those of a more regional delineated area. Such usage does not violate biblical authority because the Bible does not intend to claim more than the regional impact” (John H. Walton, Genesis, NIVAC, p.325).

Dennis Diehl said...

1047...I'm with ya. I learned what exaggeration was in the OT when I actually saw Mt Zion ehen on the Temple Mount

Yes and No to HWA said...

Typology suggests that there will be a Third Temple and Ezekiel sees the Fourth Temple in vision in 40-48.

Looking at the four kingdoms prior to the end-time kingdom of the image of Daniel 2 - the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek and Roman Empires, it may be argued that they shared these four characteristics:

(1) they were the leading gentile empire of the 'world';
(2) the people of Judah were a vassal people of that empire;
(3) they had possession of the city of Jerusalem; and
(4) the Jewish sacrificial system was in operation, with a temple, during part of each gentile overlordship.

Therefore, it follows in consistency from the above, that there will be a Third Temple; and that it will involve the commandment/covenant of Daniel 9:24-27.

Da 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Bob Thiel argues that this is a peace covenant, while not discounting that peace will be involved - cp. the Munich Pact of September 30, 1938 - it points to a building project - perhaps an earthquake (cp. Mt 27:4; 28:2) will flatten Jerusalem leading to its rebuilding along with a Temple.

Daniel 9:24-27 is a type/antitype telescopic prophecy involving the Antichrist and Christ. The Antichrist builds the Third Temple and Christ builds the Fourth Temple.

In his epistle John refers to him as "the Antichrist" (1 John.2:18). The beast-person is "an opponent of Christ; that which sets itself in the place of Christ, which appears as Christ in opposition to Christ..." (E. W. Bullinger, A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament, p.56).

Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Lk 23:3 And Pilate asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answered him and said, Thou sayest it. .
Lk 23:38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

Just as Christ is not a priest on earth so the Antichrist is also not a priest; both Christ and the Antichrist are both “princes,” better rulers/kings who get assassinated halfway through their 7 year covenants.

Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince [nagid] of Tyrus
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king [melek] of Tyrus

Dan 9:26 ...and the people of the prince [nagid] that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary

(V.26 is describing the antitype from which the type - an inferior fulfilment - is to be understood).

The near-future fulfillment of this ruler was Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the far-future will be the Antichrist. As Hoss notes that there are "in-between time” fulfillments and Vespasian fulfills it in AD70.

1 Macc 1:29 Two years later the king sent to the cities of Judah a chief collector of tribute, and he came to Jerusalem with a large force. (NRSV).
1 Macc1:30 He spoke to them deceitfully in peaceful terms, and won their trust. Then he attached the city suddenly, in a great onslaught, and destroyed many of the people in Israel. (NAB).

But strictly speaking from a type/antitype-near future/far-future fulfilment in telecopic prophecies, it was fulfilled by Antiochus and will be by the Antichrist. (Hadrian being the near-future fulfilment of the Beast-person of Revelation).

Byker Bob said...

Hypothetically speaking, if the end were coming within the next 3-5 years, scientists should be able to take a look through all of their high powered telescopes at all of the heavenly bodies which are 3-5 lightyears and less away from planet earth. These should be readily observable as hurtling towards us at unimaginable speeds.

I am reasonably sure that if this were the case, some scientists would be making an attempt at a bit of short-lived fame by sharing their discoveries with us and with their peers.


Byker Bob said...

Well! We know what Armstrongism did with cognates. (‘Saac’s sons). Is Hadrian the reason Bob Thiel associates the Hadron Collider with the beast power?


Anonymous said...

well, one thing is for certain: Revelation 16:8-9 has begun, and all the mocking and scoffing will not stop it from being fulfilled...

one thing about being human: we think so highly of our selves, and put ourselves above the Word of God, but the power of those invisible forces what bring about changes in our little fish bowl of an existence wil humble us quick and make us meek as newborn pups...

c f ben yochanan

Miranda said...

what a load of crap! no 4th vial has been poured out. the myths of Armstrongism have already been discredited decades earlier, so no new COG prophet in this day and age has any understanding that is of value.

Anonymous said...

90 wild fires burning in the us and 40 burning in canada according to the latest bbc radio report at the top of the hour...

each year the earths temperature rises; i was in north dakota last month and the temp was more than 100 degrees...

scoffing is ineffectual in the face of the tangible realities of environmental changes what directly affect the flesh, and the bible warned us well in advance; there will be no excuses...

blaspheme and fulfill prophecy...

c f yochanan

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said…

This is off topic here and only for Yes and No to HWA, but is from another earlier topic

Yes and No to HWA wrote:

"...A 36 page article, with the above quote, which is a refutation of certain points in Rick Railston’s sermon explains which one it is..."

Is that 36 page article available? If yes, from where?

Thanks in advance,

Submitted 8:09 AM EST 16 June 2018
June 16, 2018 at 5:09 AM
Yes and No to HWA said...
Email me at

and I will send you a copy - hopefully it will past correctly

(Forgive the amateurishness and typos of it).
June 16, 2018 at 3:40 PM
I requested that 36-page paper on 19 June 2018 via and could not seem to get anywhere, so would you please send the paper to me at:

Thanks, in advance.