Retired Prof said...
Dennis, your comment about the story of Abraham and Isaac is pertinent to an anthology I am composing, with the working title "Fables of the Gods." The pattern is to summarize a story that includes a god or gods from one ancient tradition or another. Then I follow it with a moral like those attached to Aesop's fables.
Here's the moral for this story: "Not being human themselves, the gods see no reason to follow basic rules of human decency when they play a practical joke. Deal with it."
Your emphasis on Abraham's culpability is equally justifiable. In fact, way more so, if we're talking psychology instead of theology.
Here's the moral for this story: "Not being human themselves, the gods see no reason to follow basic rules of human decency when they play a practical joke. Deal with it."
Your emphasis on Abraham's culpability is equally justifiable. In fact, way more so, if we're talking psychology instead of theology.
RT Even as a child in Sunday School, this story puzzled me but also terrified me. What father would do that? What if the voices in his head were wrong? How damaged and distrusting of his father would Isaac forevermore be? What did Mrs. Abraham think of this? It never made sense to me and I never took it as a story of great faith worthy of note. It seemed a manifestation of mental illness. At any rate, I was NEVER inspired by it. And in the Dutch Reformed Sunday School classes, Abraham got a pass and was one of the great men of the Bible. Not in my young world.
So for your consideration, this sums up an alternative answer to the whole thing nicely for me and would have had I seen it as a child! :)
YHWH's Amazing Test
NOTE
There is also some consideration in theological circles that the story was a transitional story between the Age of Moses and Taurus the Bull, 4000-2000 BCE where Bulls and Calves were the prominent icon of worship (i.e. Golden Calf worship) and the now beginning of the Age of Aries, the Lamb. Thus the change in symbols to be used in worship.
(An "Age" is noted as the 2100 years or so the Sun is found in each of the 12 Constellations ending in one complete cycle of 25,000 years, called the "Great Year")
Even Mithraism, which preceded Christianity, notes the change with the God Mithras slaying the Bull in it's iconography making way for the new age of Aries. The death of Jesus in the story marks the end of the Age of Aries with the death of the Lamb of God and the beginning of Pices, the Two Fish (ahem) and the Church Age of Christianity. I personally think when this Age, which is about to end and whose sacred fluid is blood, without which there is NO forgiveness, the Age of Aquarius , the Water Man, will find the sacred fluid of the future to be WATER. .
23 comments:
They didn’t teach this story in Methodist Sunday School. First I heard of it was through the Radio Church of God, in the Plain Truth serials of the Bible Story. The funny thing is, since they had already taken away Christmas, Easter, certain staples of our diet, and our doctors, and had largely separated us from our beloved but “unconverted” relatives, by that point, I never even thought the story of Abraham and Isaac strange. It seemed totally consistent with the rest of Armstrong theology. It didn’t even seem strange that because the USA was no longer like Abraham, God would send the Germans after us. I mean, I did hate it, and wished I’d never been born. You see, we had gone from singing “Jesus Loves the Little Children” and thinking that God and Jesus were our loving allies who wanted us to succeed and would help us, to seeing Them as being judgemental punishers, who were just relishing any possible opportunity to annihilate us at any time.
Alas, decades later, still no Germans, and there won’t be, because HWA didn’t know his dna. In retrospect, it caused far less damage when I realized that we had been lied to about Santa Claus.
BB
the mythological God commanded a mythological prophet to prophecy that the mythological jews would be returning to a mythological land and would oppress the palestinians and dictate to the jordanians...
its a myth, despite what we see before our own eyes: we should believe scoffers, not our lying eyes...
I have a question regarding postings such as this.
If the beliefs of the OT and NT of the bible used to support beliefs using faith of any Christianity is destroyed or reduced to human religious efforts to support a God what is the point of working on destroying HWA's religion? AB
BB writes:
“Alas, decades later, still no Germans, and there won’t be, because HWA didn’t know his dna.”
As in Aesop's fable - “The Boy Who Cried Wolf” - where the wolf did turn up, the Germans will eventually arrive, along with their allies.
" "Wilhelm II wanted colonies and military bases around the world," author Henning Sietz wrote in Die Zeit. "The United States was increasingly getting in the Kaiser's way."
"Beginning in 1897, a German navy lieutenant named Eberhard von Mantey was assigned the task of preparing an invasion of the United States after German and American interests had collided in the Pacific.
"Von Mantey's aim was to find a way to force the United States to sign a treaty giving Germany free reign in the Pacific and Atlantic. He rejected ideas of a naval blockade or a naval battle and made plans for an invasion of the northeast instead" (Kaiser Wilhelm's Germany Had Plan to Take New York, reuters.com, May 8, 2002).
It wasn’t feasible earlier but will be in the future when the former United States is severely weakened by civil war and natural disasters.
History not DNA is the best argument - see the Anglo-American Hegemonic Cycle for a time-frame (members.optusnet.com.au/futurewatch/id10.htm).
The answer to that, AB, can be dependent on your understanding of New Covenant, and Old Covenant. Or it can depend on what solution you have found to the Armstrong problem. A lot of folks who post here have shared that HWA had already destroyed mainstream Christianity for them before they joined WCG, leaving nowhere to go but agnosticism or atheism.
To me, even if the story of Abraham and Isaac were simply a fable, I know that throughout history, incredible numbers of people have had their faith put to extreme tests. You might even say that Galileo had his faith in science severely tested. Whatever meanings any of us derive from the Bible are highly personalized. Personalization was not allowed in Armstrongism, because the Bible was used against us, to manipulate our behavior in one uniform direction, often in unChristian ways.
Look at Armstrongism now. It has created myriad atheists, and even the dedicated stalwarts are split up into 600+ schools of thought. What can a poor ex-member do but to start at ground zero and to rebuild his/her life, this time, thinking for self, and being very cautious about all of the guided conclusions.
I think some people that comment here are saying things just to get a rise out of people.
Perhaps the isolationism was the worst, most damaging element. Most denominations don't demand that of their adherents. We were, in many ways, cut off from "the world," and therefore unable to properly adjust in the real world.
For one thing, who cares? I didn’t die at age 27, which is when I would have had HWA been right. I got to live a full life developing my talents, collecting memorable experiences, and helping others. Not to get egotistical about it, but I won. This in spite of not 3-1/2 years of tribulation by the Germans, but the ten years of tribulation and torture growing up in a WCG home where the principles taught in the child-beating booklet were obsessively and compulsively practiced.
Secondly, you really need to get over to the old “Silenced” blog, and read the exhaustive series on BI there. Maybe knowing what they have to offer will keep you from making such ignorant pronouncements as you did at 1:23 in the future. Bias confirmation in your dreams notwithstanding, BI was a total crock. But, if it fills you with joy to live your life anticpating Herbie’s garbage, that’s your problem.
BB
A comment made: A lot of folks who post here have shared that HWA had already destroyed mainstream Christianity for them before they joined WCG, leaving nowhere to go but agnosticism or atheism.
AB comment: If this is true I will say that the person has not spent any time reading the works of people who write books explaining the foundational information of mainstream Christianity. I am a firm believer in the Christian Bible and accept it as the inspired word of God and is the revelation of Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior who will guide my understanding thru the indwelling of the Holy Spirit received when I was baptized 60 years ago. I have studied the writings of theologians and read the daily Devotionals of ministers like John MacArthur and others each day on my computer. If a person loses their faith it is evident they did not understand the God the scripture reveals. I have a personal library of books like the Daily Bible Study Series by William Barclay and Books defined as The Bible Speaks Today. These books go through each book the Old and New Testament explaining background and translation etc. My original question was pointing out that what HWA wrote years ago was useless if the bible is see as human reasoning.
BB
BI is not a Herb invention. Even before Herb was born, it was a mainstream belief in nineteen century England. It was the official doctrine of the Anglican church.
Yes and No to HWA said: "History not DNA is the best argument"
I've browsed on the site you've posted a few times now and tbh it looks interesting. In any event, I reckon your statement is correct. I've read a little on epigenetics and how the environment influences our DNA switching genes on and off so I believe there's much more to know about the DNA of the 12 tribes of Israel that probably won't be known until Christ returns. So in the meantime "history is the best argument" as you note as we see Germany and France uniting in the aspirations for an "independent" EU army to reduce American influence as well as the UK with its decision to Brexit no longer playing a pivotal role on the ongoing development of the EU.
Tbh does anyone know if HWA formed his view re the UK not being a part of the final "beast" union from others? Or were there others who had this idea before him or even at the same time? I believe that the BIWF are historicist in their position re the prophecies of Revelation so they didn't.
1.26 PM
Good post. The 600+ splinters is what happens when the church decided to lord it over members lives and faith, instead of feeding the flock and letting members live their own lives. Herbs house was built on sand and the inevitable happened. Many of the splinters still hang on to the Herb model, exclusively blaming big bad wolf Joe T for the collapse. But that's being intellectually dishonest. Long term, bully morality doesn't work. That's the moral of the story.
"BI is not a Herb invention. Even before Herb was born, it was a mainstream belief in nineteen century England. It was the official doctrine of the Anglican church."
No Herbert did not invent BI, it certainly was alive decades before Herb ever hit the scene. Herb had scores of books in the Pasadena AC library from the 1880's that went it great detail on the subject. We all know how he plagiarized Allen's book on the same subject.
Herb copied one of the church major doctrines out of another man's book and the church bought it hook, line, and sinker. It is also a theory that has been totally debunked by historians and by new DNA protocols. It is not an important topic for any COG member or for any Christian for that matter. Specifically because of this Bible verse:
Galatians 3:26-29 The Message (MSG)
25-27 But now you have arrived at your destination: By faith in Christ you are in direct relationship with God. Your baptism in Christ was not just washing you up for a fresh start. It also involved dressing you in an adult faith wardrobe—Christ’s life, the fulfillment of God’s original promise.
In Christ’s Family
28-29 In Christ’s family there can be no division into Jew and non-Jew, slave and free, male and female. Among us you are all equal. That is, we are all in a common relationship with Jesus Christ. Also, since you are Christ’s family, then you are Abraham’s famous “descendant,” heirs according to the covenant promises.
Armstrongism isnt split up into 600 "schools of thought", otherwise you wouldn't be calling it armstrongism.
Heck, my point over the years is that much of armstrongism is just a form of presbyterism as it has appeared since the mid 1600's. The city of munster was raised by the anabaptists awaiting the kingdom on earth. Scottish and Dutch reformed would recognize much of its interpretations as a mattercof fact armstrong is a scottish clan.
You people don't even have a clue as to what strict observance of religious tenets is. Armstrongism was a breath of fresh air as compared to some of the more "traditional" schools of thought, at the time etc etc.
The EU has been american and british foreign policy since 1945. Winston Churchill who breathed new air in the idea and campaigned for it all over Europe never intended for the British Empire to be part of a EU. Churchill was an old fashioned empire thinker who at the time did not realize as the foolish brits still don't, that the empire is part of the glorious past.
Both the Russians and increasingly the USA seem to try to fracture this economic juggernauth and alternative to their way of doing things.
Germany and France have no desire to "reduce" american influence. They are responding to threats posed by long time friends. Threats of corruptive business practices, russian military arm wrestling and control and monotoring of (social) media and all mankinds behavior by dominant us companies.
Even this message and the pictures sht posts strictly are not our property anymore. My phone just sent my location, this posting, my opinion to google and facebook for eternal storage.
BI was a phase in what today we call "five eyes". The dominant anglo saxon empire ruling the world since the fall of napoleon to thos day. And we will long for the goodies of Egypt once the Chinese have downgraded your social ranking points for what you wrote 25 years ago on an obscure blog somewhere out there.
So the USA should rapidly dedicate itself to its original mission (which is bi, (to bless other nations through its existence) or loose all through a misguided believe that all that was given to them was a function of their right to posess it for themselves.
Nck
BB, in response to my post, wrote:
“you really need to get over to the old “Silenced” blog, and read the exhaustive series on BI there”.
Well before looking at the blog, sometime back, I was well aware of the BI misapplication of Scripture - nothing new there.
BB also wrote:
“Maybe knowing what they have to offer will keep you from making such ignorant pronouncements as you did at 1:23 in the future.”
While I believe in BI, there is also a secular argument. So my pronouncement was based more on projecting a future from modern economic and hegemonic history:
"Every modern transition of world power supremacy has involved an ally or former colony of the previous hegemonic power. Holland was a breakaway possession of Spain. England was an ally of the Netherlands, and from 1689 trough 1702 both states shared the same sovereign, the Dutch-born William III. The United States was a former colony and intimate ally of Britain..." (James Dale Davidson & William Rees-Mogg, The Great Reckoning, p.137).
"History is coming full circle. After breaking away from the British Empire, the United States came together as a unitary federation, emerged as a leading nation, and eventually eclipsed Europe's Great Powers. It is now Europe's turn to ascend and break away from an America that refuses to surrender its privileges of primacy. Europe will inevitably rise up as America's principal competitor. Should Washington and Brussels begin to recognize the dangers of the growing gulf between them, they may be able to contain their budding rivalry. Should they fail, however, to prepare for life after Pax Americana, they will ensure that the coming clash of civilizations will be not between the West and the rest but within a West divided against itself... and America [and BB?] remains largely oblivious" (Charles A. Kupchan, The End of the West, The Atlantic Monthly, November 2002, p.42-44).
Far from being an ignorant comment, I would argue that based on history it has some merit - [West] Germany, an ally of USA in the Cold War, will comprise a large part of the coming United States of Europe?
BB also writes:
“But, if it fills you with joy to live your life anticipating Herbie’s garbage, that’s your problem.”
It does not fill my life with joy to watch the suicide of the Anglo-American-Celtic and Related Peoples. But from an observational aspect it will be interesting to see a modern version of the HRE:
"... Even when institutions are disintegrating and decaying, their leading ideas sometimes live on. And remerge, often in distorted and even horrendous forms. So it was the Berlin-Rome axis came into being; the link was the Church. So it was that the Concordat between the Vatican and the Third Reich was signed. There was perhaps no basic differences between the attitudes of Pius XII to Hitler and Leo III to Charlemagne. "Heresies," as Sir Thomas Browne wrote,
do not perish with their Authors, but like the river Arethusa, though they lose their currents in one place, they rise up again in another... Opinions do find, after certain Revolutions, men and minds like those that first begat them. To see ourselves again, we need not look for Plato's year: every man is not only himself; there have been many Diogenes, and as many Timons, though but few of that name; men are lived over again, the world is now as it was in Ages past, there was none then, but there hath been someone since that parallels him, and is, as it were, his revived self.
"If this is true then can we be sure that history has written finis to what was perhaps the grandest design ever conceived by man: the Holy Roman Empire?” (George Bailey, Germans: Biography of an Obsession, p.360).
YHVH's Greatest Yest must be British Israelim. Lol.
I believe that the only reason people fear Europe is that subconsciously, even ex-members have HWA’s failed prophecy mold running through their minds. That, and our two world wars. It is much more likely that China will come into dominance, if your eyes and ears are tuned into the realities of today, and its currency replacing the dollar as the world’s reserve currency.
Having said that, the USA could indeed have a civil war over any one or combination of several issues, considering the polarization of the left and right. The factions are not regionally divided, however, as they were in our original Civil War. Factions are interspersed throughout the entire population. So, it’s far more likely that such a war would be guerilla war fought on the streets as opposed to a military block seceding and attacking the mother ship.
The national disasters we are witnessing, and atypical weather patterns are not exclusively affecting nations in which large populations of Heinz-57 white people with part Anglo Saxon dna reside. (Remember, in the USA, majority dna is actually German!) The uptick in disasters, the intensity of wildfires and hurricanes are the result of global climate change! Read Friday’s NOAA report from our own federal government if you still think global warming is an international hoax against the USA! National disasters are not supernaturally singling out the USA. Climate change is affecting the polar ice caps, the Great Barrier Reef, Russian and Canadian permafrost, the glaciers around the world which have by controlled release fed most of the great rivers upon which civilizations have been built, and the very existence of numerous island around the world. Yet, the USA, under our delusional president, has withdrawn from the international effort to combat climat change. It is as if a Cat 5 hurricane were about to hit, and somebody were giving orders NOT to evacuate, Not to deploy sandbags, NOT to board up windows, and NOT to hoard emergency supplies. Fortunately, with overwhelming evidence, I believe the tide is turning on this issue, and most likely within the next two years the US will rejoin the accords.
Europe has had great difficulty absorbing an influx of a measily 1 million Middle Eastern refugees. Hitler-style forced labor today would remove jobs from Europe’s work force and ruin the economy. That entire model is as antiquated as the 1700’s model for gentlemans war, in which line after line of British soldiers would come to the front, take their shot and many be shot, and then the next line advances to repeat the process. History is indeed important, but methodology and theory constantly evolve.
I believe wars will continue to exist, and disasters will continue to occur. However, they have nothing to do with Herbert’s “hook”. That model appeared feasable during a limited time period last century. The world has moved on. There are now greater nations and philosophies to fear.
BB
truth or fiction?
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/did-a-mysterious-extinction-event-precede-adam-and-eve
Based on DNA testing, humans began around 100,000 years ago.
This intriguing discovery posits a new origin theory for life as we know it today.
The Bible story appears to begin with Abraham and the events recorded prior to it, seem to be more of an origin tale than fact.
HWA used to teach that science and the Bible agree.
Maybe when it comes to pre-Abrahamic history, we only have fables.
It is obvious that the history around Adam's family is minimal - only 3 brothers and no sisters mentioned.
Maybe Adam was the first man to receive the promise, and blew it - not the first man to exist.
When the kinds of people who are afraid of football hear that Kaiser Wilhelm planned to invade the Northeast US, or that Hitler tried to cut a deal with Mexico so he could invade us from there, they don’t even remotely consider the possibility that we would have overpowered and repelled them. They say to themselves, “Wow! We almost lost the war! Better watch out for next time!”
The fact is that in conducting a war, many strategies are considered and rejected for various reasons, and leaders (usually the losers) make tactical errors.
You can also bet your bottom dollar that people afraid of football have no idea how many AK-47s and AR-15s are now floating around, owned by private citizens who have thousands of rounds of ammo for them, and advanced equipment and supplies for reloading. Also, thanks to revised military policies and procedures, and wars in the Middle East, there are now housewive raising their families who have advanced training, and could kick most guys’ asses in 3 seconds flat. Conditions such as these were not even thought of during the era when HWA was screwing his daughter by night, and developing his doctrinal and prophecy approaches by day.
As I always say, time and date stamp, people!
BB
Even though I myeslf am no atheist. I used to look at people that had left the church and wondered what happened. Now that I have been through it, I understand the saying that goes "he who feels it knows it". Glad to see BB had a full life. SOME of us who had left are not so lucky we may had left when half of our lives were over,little to no outside friends,no worldly coping skills,poverty,illnesses due to neglect,broken marriages and homes e.t.c it can truly be a traumatic experience no wonder Cogdom produced so many atheist. We were even conditioned to believe we had it all spiritually and nothing outside the church of God was of any use (especially spiritually) . It is almost like awaking from the Matrix. Our minds were being screwed with in a way that should had never been allowed, and most of us couldn't see it for what it was.
Oh please. Most nations I visited or lived are over 8o percent atheist.
Most literature in those nations is about how religion screwed them big time. Even if HWA produced atheists they would be regarded enlightened in nations with free health care, gun control, safe schools, and roads well built.
Nck
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