The Philadelphia Church of God has an article up in its January 2019 Trumpet magazine; Four Signs the Second Coming Is Near, by Joel Hilliker.
In it he says:
Weapons of mass destruction. An end-time Elijah. The true gospel preached around the world. The true Church splitting apart. These are four signs of Jesus Christ’s return that God inspired to be recorded and miraculously preserved in the Bible for 2,000 years. Today, they have all been fulfilled! These four specific signs, along with many others, show for certain that Jesus Christ is not just going to return, but He is going to return soon.Gerald Flurry and the PCG has always claimed that Herbert Armstrong was the end-time Elijah, which is an end-all statement that rubs the present day Elijah with some major butt-hurt. By proclaiming Elijah has already arrived and completed his ministry leaves no room for the various COG self-appointed Elijah's and self-appointed prophets to anoint themselves and expect adoration. That is a major bone of contention for our favorite self-appointed, doubly anointed and almost arrested prophet to the COG and the world, Tinfoil Bob Thiel.
He writes:
Notice that the Elijah is to come just before the great and terrible day of the LORD, and if he did not come, utter destruction would occur.
Herbert W. Armstrong died in January 16, 1986.
Now let’s see what Herbert W. Armstrong actually wrote about the timing of the final Elijah:
"Also Malachi 4:5-6 pictures the Elijah to come at the very end of the Church age (Mystery of the Ages. 1985, p. 349). "
When did Herbert W. Armstrong write that the Church age was over?
Notice:
At the end of the Church age and 6,000 years from Adam, Christ would return to earth as King of kings and Lord of Lords, ruling all nations, with the saints, for one millennium. (Armstrong HW. What If Adam Had Taken of the Tree of Life? Plan Truth, March 1983)
The “very end” of the Church age was not over nearly 33 years ago! The 6000 years has NOT yet been fulfilled. Since the “very end of the Church age” has not happened, and Herbert W. Armstrong died decades ago, his writings support that there must be another Elijah. And he was referring to an individual in the Mystery of the Ages.Then, as usual, Tinfoil Bob trots our Dibar Apartain as if the man was a legitimate validation for end time events. Given how the COG ministry has been abysmal failures in prophecy, using Apartian as a source shows poor judgment. Apartian was as theologically bankrupt as Meredith and Thiel both are. Plus, Tinfoil Bob has made lots of claims about conversations and statements Apartain supposedly said to him, none of which can ever be verified as true. Given how every single COG leader has lied to get himself in positions of authority, why should we believe any less of Theil?
That being said, sometimes Herbert W. Armstrong did think that he may have fulfilled the Elijah role, but he told the late Dibar Apartian (who told me) that he was NOT the Elijah. Furthermore, essentially on his deathbed, Herbert W. Armstrong admitted to his closest aide, Aaron Dean (who told me this multiple times) that there could be an Elijah to come after he died.
This combined with what Herbert W. Armstrong wrote in The Mystery of the Ages and the length of time since his death demonstrates that Herbert W. Armstrong could not biblically be the final prophesied Elijah.Next, our prophet wanna-be throws out some more scripture to PROVE he is the end time Elijah that was prophecied to come.
Since the Bible does teach that there will be an ‘Elijah’ who is alive right before Jesus returns (Malachi 4:5-6), it is not possible that Herbert W. Armstrong was the prophesied final Elijah.
Now, presuming Jesus will return within the next couple of decades, then that ‘Elijah’ would need to be alive now. And he would be part of the church that places the highest priority on the truth.
Yet, most Christians seemingly refuse to accept that.Woe to be to those in the Church of God community and the world at large that reject this end-time Elijah and his church message! Woe brethren! Woe!
We in the Continuing Church of God are regularly restoring more truth about church history, doctrine, and prophecy. And we have done this more, by far, than any other group in the 21st century (COG or otherwise for that matter).
Sadly, just as many would not hear Elijah’s nor John the Baptist’s messages, relatively few will pay much attention to the end time Elijah as well.
That is not a surprise as most Christians in the end times were to be Laodicean, and Jesus warned the Laodiceans since they would not ‘get with the program,’ that they would be punished (Revelation 3:14-18).
Of course, if you are willing to believe the truth and do what the Bible teaches, that does not have to include you.
Was that supposed to happen?
Yes.
Notice something that Daniel wrote:
4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.” (Daniel 12:4)
The end has not yet come.
Therefore, Herbert W. Armstrong could not have possibly been the final Elijah and Matthew 24:14 has not yet been fulfilled.
That being said, we in the Continuing Church of God are regularly restoring more truth, while we are reaching people around the world and preparing for the short-work (Romans 9:28), because Jesus will be coming relatively soon.
It is just that on at least two points in Joel Hilliker’s article, the so titled Philadelphia Church of God is wrong.Those poor deceived people in the Philadelphia Church of God just do not get it! Truth only lies in the improperly named "continuing" Church of God and NOWHERE ELSE!!! The problem lies in the fact that if they join up with Thiel they are just jumping from one spiritual despot to another. God has nothing to do with Gerald Flurry and the Philadelphia Church of God anymore than he does with the improperly named "continuing" Church of God. God never appointed Bob Thiel, just as he never appointed Gerald Flurry as a COG leader. That is a fact that cannot be refuted.
Any deluded fool can claim his dreams are god inspired and then turn them into mythological status as Thiel has done. God did no such thing with Thiel and he cannot prove that He did.
So essentially we have one deluded man lecturing another deluded man on what he thinks is right.
37 comments:
Bob has one thing right: Herbert Armstrong wasn't Elijah.
It's time to call tinfoil Bob on his bull compost. If he is really the end time Elijah, it would not be entirely unreasonable to expect him to duplicate at least one of Elijah's 16 miracles to authenticate himself. How else would everyone know that they were to listen to him?
Dr. Thiel, the ball is in your court. Put up, or shut up.
BB
Maybe you should post a picture of 2 drunks fighting. Looks like these 2 are swinging and missing each other.
Note the scripture says Elijah will focus on family relationships - which is far from what the modern day fake Elijahs are doing.
Malachi 3 v 5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
If I recall, Bishop Usher's 4004 BC creation date was the accepted date by HWA. You are well over 6000 years from 4004 BC to now. His 19 year time cycles have also come and gone.
I guess that doesn't leave much room for Pack then does it? How many Elijahs can one world handle?
Even more signs that the end is near:
1. Gerald Flurry plagiarized The Letter to Laodicea by Jules Dervaes, renamed it Malachi's Message, revised it half a dozen times, and started to teach that it had been delivered by a mighty angel and that it is the “little scroll” mentioned in the book of Revelation.
2. Gerald Flurry immediately did away with the “great commission” that Jesus had given to his apostles to preach the gospel of the kingdom of God, and replaced it with a “new commission” to cause massive division among families, friends, and COGs everywhere and call it “warning the Laodiceans.”
3. Gerald Flurry did away with the teaching that the church is led by an apostle and that prophets have no administrative, executive or preaching functions in the church, and replaced it with the idea that the church is led by a prophet. This required Gerald Flurry to edit and change HWA's last book called Mystery of the Ages.
4. Gerald Flurry did away with the idea that Deuteronomy 18:18-19 was referring to Jesus and replaced it with the idea that it was talking about Gerald Flurry.
5. Gerald Flurry did away with the commandment to honor one's parents and replaced it with a new command to cut off all contact with them if they do not follow That (False) Prophet.
6. Gerald Flurry is doing the anti-Elijah work of turning the hearts of the fathers and their children against each other so that they will never again say even so much as a word to each other.
7. Gerald Flurry claims to be faithfully holding on to everything that HWA had taught but edited and changed the writings of HWA that the PCG bought from the WCG apostates.
8. Gerald Flurry claimed that the PCG had been “flooded” with much “new revelation”. Gerald Flurry did the flooding.
9. Local PCG goons try to pair up other people's children--but not their own children--with old sex maniacs, sex perverts, and predators, and call it doing so much for them and trying so hard to “help” them. They get kicked out and slandered all over the place if they do not go along with it.
Anonymous on December 16, 2018 at 4:28 AM said...“If I recall, Bishop Usher's 4004 BC creation date was the accepted date by HWA. You are well over 6000 years from 4004 BC to now. His 19 year time cycles have also come and gone.”
World War II was not the end. The USA and UK won that one. Italy and Germany lost. Benito Mussolini was killed. Adolf Hitler committed suicide (or escaped to South America).
Next, a 19-year time cycle theory led up to 1972, but not much happened then besides the WCG getting to advertise in the international edition of Readers Digest and getting some financing for the Ambassador Auditorium.
The WCG then fell back on 1996 as the end of 6,000 years of human history according to Bishop Usher's numbers. Did not happen then either.
Later, Roderick Meredith in his own splinter group said that there could be up to 35 years of “play” in Bishop Usher's numbers.
To 6:28 AM
In the article on 'The God Family' the author mentions God's 7,000-year plan for earth. Would you please explain what he means by this?"
https://www.hwalibrary.com/cgi-bin/mobile/m_hwa.cgi?action=getspectopics&InfoID=1466864204&SearchWhat=KeyWord&SearchFor=4004 bc&NoASearch=&page=&return=search
https://www.hwalibrary.com/cgi-bin/mobile/m_hwa.cgi?action=gettcast&InfoID=1382736903&SearchWhat=KeyWord&SearchFor=19 year time cycle&NoASearch=&page=1&return=search
https://www.hwalibrary.com/cgi-bin/download/viewitem.cgi?PageNo=#Page=1
Byker Bob suggests that Thiel should replicate some of Elijah's miracles and asks " How else would everyone know that they were to listen to him?"
Instead of an Elijah, I would like to see him pull a Jonah. Book passage on a ship out into the Pacific just before a violent storm is forecast and have the sailors throw him overboard at the height of the storm, having made prior arrangements with Gaylon Bonjour to persuade God to to lead a whale to swallow him. When he got vomited up on Redondo Beach after spending three days and three nights in its bowels praying for deliverance, he would be guaranteed worldwide coverage. If one of the chunks in a puddle of whale vomit stands up and prophesies, people pay attention.
4:28, 6:28 - Since HWA pushed the Gap Theory, I think he accepted 4004 BCE as the date for the six days of "re-creation".
Bob Thiel does have a lot of truth and biblical understanding and many get a lot out of what he says. Whereas this blog only has those who can do nothing but slam others and then those of his followers follow right in behind and see if they can outdo that slamming, slammers like Dennis the menace and bicycle Bob and others who just have to comment even though they say nothing but love to be heard. Very few can refute what Thiel says and explain it on paper but they do like to talk and say nothing..
Thiel's ramblings are simply "Tohu and Bohu"... Void and Confused!
Bicycle Bob with more put downs and slamming those he doesn’t like, especially Bob Thiel.but can never say anything to prove otherwise.
I used to think Gary had a hatred for what Bob Thiel but it has become obvious it’s a hatred for not only what he says but a hatred for the man himself that seems to go way back and can do nothing but slam him in everything he says about him, name calling like a little child to other childish comments. I don’t expect you will let my comments go through especially when they are true. I know you can come up with some good stuff but it seems your bent on slamming and name calling, and it only looks worse when your copycat followers just have to follow by trying to agree with you by their own two cents worth of slamming someone you are slamming,, bicycle Bob can’t talk about anyone without putting them down without adding a childish name calling in front of his real one especially without explaining where the person is wrong and explains what the real truth of the matter is since he thinks he knows so much. Since this is a blog where a lot of put downs and slamming others is okay, I thought I could use a little myself just to make my point clear.and hopefully not meaning to hurt anyone’s feelings as they do.
Certainly Converted Charlie wrote:
Since this is a blog where a lot of put downs and slamming others is okay, I thought I could use a little myself just to make my point clear.and hopefully not meaning to hurt anyone’s feelings as they do.
I guess "an eye for an eye" is easier than "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
The ultimate truth is that there is no such thing as a nice guy scammer. Bob Thiel is perpetuating a scam, using dubious credentials (google “Ambassador Watch Blog” Click on to it on the list which comes up. Look at the information in the upper right hand of your screen. Gavin researched this thoroughly, and left it for posterity.)
Some of us once watched a real historian make mincemeat out of Bob Thiel’s version of “A True History of the True Church.” Bob refused to incorpoate the actual truths which were presented to him, and continues to teach the scam version instead.
This is an individual who does not deserve to be treated as a nice guy or a brother. Unfortunately, he’s got lots of company amongst the other purveyors of the HWAcaca.
BB
Only the Restored Church Of God has bible truth.
All the teachings in the WCG had come through HWA. So, near the end of his life HWA began to teach that he was the Elijah who was prophesied to come and “restore all things.” People counselling for baptism in the WCG around that time were even asked if they believed that HWA was the Elijah who had restored all things. Everybody supposedly believed it back then.
Now, along come false prophets like Bob Thiel denying that HWA was the Elijah. But then, who is, or who will be, the Elijah? And, another big question is, What will they restore? Maybe Bob Thiel could say that he restored the idea that you can look to demon-inspired pagan prophecies to try to guess future trivia.
David Pack recently claimed to have “130 proofs” that he is Elijah. He initially restored HWA's teachings, but then later changed them. His new big thing is that he restored a massive “common” theft scam.
One of the very first things that Gerald Flurry did, even before claiming to be That (False) Prophet, was to do away with preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, which HWA in his writings had called “the true purpose” and “the very purpose” of the church. HWA had taught that the true gospel had been suppressed early on but that his WCG had been given an “open door” to preach it. Gerald Flurry said that HWA had preached it, as if it was now over and done with, and quickly suppressed it again.
The false prophets appear to some people to have some truth, but that is only because they got some things from HWA, and even what they got from him they warp and pervert. In the context of warning about false prophets, Jesus said that a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Those who think that the false prophets are doing any good at all are mistaken. Satan did not send his false prophets to do any good.
Charlie = Thiel
Charlie - I used to follow Bob Thiel's cogwriter web site to keep up with the going ons of the different groups.
I was very disappointed when he decided to form his own church.
After the breakup of WCG in 1995, I decided to read the Bible continuously as my first priority in Bible Study.
This led me to realize there were a number of area in the Bible we did not follow.
I tried asking questions but was rebuffed.
I no longer have the patience to listen to Bob and others give sermons about the parts of the Bible they wish to emphasize.
I do miss the occasional sermons that were well constructed and useful, but not enough to sit thru the majority of boring ones.
Besides, the COGs have the conceit they are the only ones with the Truth when they just have bits and pieces.
Opinionated wrote:
Charlie = Thiel
Bitter Butthurt Bob, after Rod Meredith spurned him, began to tell the world that Rod Meredith was a big fat liar and that one big proof of CCOG was that it told the truth.
Now that Bogus Bwana Bob is the Overseer of his own ACOG, he has apparently decided that it is OK to lie "for the Church." He has become the very liar that he accused Daddy Rod of being. If Bob isn't a sociopath, if he has any conscience left, he must know deep down that he is a fraud, and he must be working very hard to keep that knowledge below the surface where it won't surface and ruin him psychologically and spiritually.
HWA taught against demons and paganism.
Bob Thiel is trying to restore demons and paganism to respectability.
HWA taught against fiction books.
Ronald Weinland is trying to restore prophetic fantasy fiction books to respectability.
HWA taught against insatiable greed and theft.
David Pack is trying to restore insatiable greed and theft to respectability.
HWA taught against family wrecking and sexual immorality.
Gerald Flurry is trying to restore family wrecking and sexual immorality to respectability.
Know what's really amazing? Every once in a while some anonymous troll appears, rises up in self-righteous indignation and trashes us for telling it like it is about the ACOG "leaders". Like we're the ones being unchristian. The funny thing is, some ACOG members from all the groups are here critiquing their own leaders, and taking precautions against including any personal information that would get them caught. Pack's people do it, Weinland's people do it, there are people from RCG, PCG, LCG. They've all discovered, to cop an old gag from the Spokesman's Club manual, that "Moses supposes amiss!" There's something horribly smelly lurking in every corner of the Armstrong movement. You'd think they'd maybe want to get a clue, and to correct it. Instead of spraying some spiritual Lysol around, they just whine about being criticized.
Anon said:
People counselling for baptism in the WCG around that time were even asked if they believed that HWA was the Elijah who had restored all things. Everybody supposedly believed it back then.
I never heard that asked once in 26 years nor knew anyone who had it required of them at baptism. Just me I know...and this does not account for true believer die hard ministers who just made up their own baptism stuff
1.28 PM
Your post is wrong about Gerald Flurry. In the nineties, his stated position in his literature was one of warning the fallen away Laodiceans. But only for a certain number of years. He stuck to his position, and switched to the Ezekiel role of warning of a coming WW 3, and Christ's return.
HWA claiming that the gospel is the government of God is dubious. It seems a extension of the church culture of tyranny. What difference does it make if people believe this doctrine.
But the gospel of salvation (people can qualify for eternal life) is a different story, It give people the incentive to get their stuff together. And it gives them hope.
Christ telling his generation to repent 'because the kingdom of God is at hand' makes no sense if it only refers to a government two thousand years in the future.
World War II was not the end. The USA and UK won that one. Italy and Germany lost.
The UK lost its empire so they did not really win.
"Only the Restored Church of God has bible truth."
I think I hear your mother telling you to put your toys away.
Errr they with the allies, saved Europe from 1,000 year Nazi reign. Their people were not sent to concentration camps to be obliterated so i think they did really really win.
DennisCDiehl on December 16, 2018 at 6:24 PM said...“I never heard that asked once in 26 years nor knew anyone who had it required of them at baptism. Just me I know...and this does not account for true believer die hard ministers who just made up their own baptism stuff”
It sounds like you did not really pay attention in the WCG to what was actually taught. If you had not been laid off when the Tkaches shrunk the church, you would probably still be in GCI now and still collecting a paycheck and still just doing your own thing.
Asking a baptismal qualification question about HWA being Elijah was a Flurry thing, not a WCG one.
BB
I never heard or heard of that confession being required of anyone, and certainly not as a matter of policy. But it would not surprise me if it was the case at some point or another, as policy or just some ministurd trying be sonorous. Especially in later years when HWA was not as actively shunning such accolades.
PCG is reported to do that as a matter of policy though. Which is amusing in the sense that Lil Stevie has spent so much ink telling us that Lil Joe Junior lied when he said that HWA openly stated "I am Elijah" in several late sermons.
The problem with the ACOG works is the focus on esoteric twigs that make no difference in people's lives. I'd far rather support a ministry that is about building relationships and helping people do something useful with their lives. What does it matter who Elijah is? But helping someone defeat the shackles of their problems and get their act together has definite consequences.
Demanding that people confess their sins to a 'minister' is a abusive cult ploy. The 'dirt' acquired is used as a club against that person if they ever question or disagree with the church. It's also a case of a minister exalting himself and putting himself in place of, or above God. A very human/demonic trait.
I once had a member tell me that our minister demanded to know his sins. He told me that the minister didn't tell him his sins, so why should he tell him his. A good mental defence.
Byker Bob on December 17, 2018 at 7:21 PM said...“Asking a baptismal qualification question about HWA being Elijah was a Flurry thing, not a WCG one.”
Even after HWA's death, some WCG ministers would ask it. It was probably a quick way to find out if someone believed everything that the WCG taught. This was a bit of a change from HWA's early years in the COG(7D) when HWA would not even tell people about the clean and unclean animal laws before baptizing them, in spite of the COG(7D) wanting people to know what they were getting into ahead of time.
Gerald Flurry's PCG would ask people if they believed that HWA was the Elijah. Gerald Flurry's fake PCG ministers would later shout that if anyone did not believe that HWA was the Elijah, and that Malachi's Message was the little book mentioned in Revelation, they did not want them. Of course, if anyone did not agree with Gerald Flurry later editing Mystery of the Ages so that the church could be run by a self-proclaimed prophet like Gerald Flurry rather than by an apostle, they would get kicked out.
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