Wednesday, January 30, 2019

Concerning Herbert Armstrong



There have been a lot of comments regarding the influence of HWA based on a posting by Church of God the Eternal - which stated a position concerning Herbert Armstrong that has not been, so much as we know, admitted or even alluded to by any Armstrong Church of God until now.Of course, this raises banter which ranges from why we are even talking about HWA from nearly every angle of position, it seems. 

Comments regarding the influence of HWA include this:  
How could the church have ever expected fruit from these visits when Herbert was too embarrassed to talk about Jesus. “A strong hand from someplace” is a crock of steaming bullshit. All Herbert was ever concerned with was the publicity and the photo ops, it certainly was never witinissing (sic) about Christ. What witness was it to help build The Globe Theatre in London or the Reagan Library with tithe money? Even Prince Charles found him embarrassing.
And this:
Tonto is right! The church dropped millions of dollars on AICF that never broke even. Performers were wined and dined with the finest of foods and Dom Perigon champagne. None of them and none of the public ever joined the church because of AICF. In fact, I saw them many times standing in the student center mocking the booklets on display. It was all about shedding the "cult" label and trying to look charitable and mainstream.
And then, we have NCK, who states: (Spelling errors highlighted)
What utter nonsense by tbe uneducated. Some of the distuctions hwa was awarded with are not for sale.
I spent many postings explaining who gave them and for what reasons. And still you come up with a crappy posting by somw splinter of whom non ever engaged with real people of consequence. I will resume my poatings on the handover of okinawa, the american king of thailand, the britiah king of jordan, the anerican 5 block embassy in tiny neoal, marcos investmwnts in new york, ambassador college on the swiss italian border next to the cia predecessor. etc etc etc You utter inconsequential ninkompoops.

The american emissaries thanking hwa for the Syria mari digs as they reflected well on the american people in a russian sphere of influence.
Japanese diplomacy and foreign investment in East Africa, Israel, South America,american covert support for the apartheid systen to keep South Africa in the Western Fold, worldwide sponsoring ig operating costs for cia radio stations programming western news and promoting western culture.
And I am not even starting.
You are so incredibly ignorant.
NCK professes to be a very wealthy, educated lawyer. One thing lawyers are trained to focus on specifically is attention to detail, of which there clearly was none with the above post. I am assuming Distuction meant distinction, don't know of a SOMW splinter, never heard of a poating before, am absolutely positive that at least countries would be capitalized properly as well as acronyms, and not sure what a ninkompoop is. But I do know what a nincompoop is, which is what this post looks like a bunch of because it is so poorly formatted. If this was an anger post, the hurried typing is unbecoming of a professional lawyer. 

Secondly, NCK accuses Gary (and others here, I'm sure) of being uneducated and ignorant, and nonsense. That in itself is ridiculous, as Gary was right there in the midst of it all and probably knows things you had no idea on. But all of this is neither here nor there because your posting (as horrible as it is) proves the point I have been trying to make. 

It does not matter if the claims of some of the commenters here regarding the wasteful spending (it was), ego-driven world travelling tour (it was), and extravagant spending (there was a lot of that) were true, OR if NCK's claims have any merit at all. In fact, let's just take a moment to imagine that NCK's claims are in fact, factual.

Let's imagine that HWA was deeply influential in the state of World Affairs, deeply entrenched in some sort of governmental operations on a global scale. Let's imagine his claims are even half-way accurate. What then would this prove? 

Remember what was preached by HWA. He told his people to "Come out of this world", and to be "set apart" from the world. If - and let's just say if - what NCK says is true - then all that would prove is that not only was HWA IN the world, purely caught up BY the world, but in fact, WAS the very world that he convinced everyone in the Church he was against. In fact, IF NCK's claims were true as he alleges, then not only would he BE the world, he would be everything he taught against - the very definition of the wickedness he claims to have been called to be the End-Time Apostle to actually end wickedness, setting up the return of Jesus Christ where he would reign under Christ. 

So, let's then get this state from a religious standpoint, not a worldly standpoint. Here we have a man who actually was, according to NCK, some sort of world operative deeply entrenched in world affairs. If true, he was NOT an Apostle, a complete and total religious fraud, and a first-class deceiver. If true, then this would prove that everything that happened was absolute nonsense in a religious standpoint. It would verify that he was always a businessman only - but even further then a businessman - a thoroughly entrenched figure in the world he condemned so thoroughly and rigidly. 

No matter how you look at it, in the eyes of those of us who were a part of the Fundraising Arm (the Church) who compile all angles of evidence (including NCK's), there are certain things that cannot be disputed any way you look. 

1. Herbert Armstrong was a businessman, first and foremost. He admitted to this many times in the Autobiography, in letters, and in writings all throughout his life. This is what he was. 

2. Herbert Armstrong was of the world. His attitude, demeanor, rage, temper, focus, and fruits verify this time and time again. Whether or not you believe the majority of the commentators here or NCK - Herbert Armstrong was worldly. 

3. Herbert Armstrong's god was prestige, fame, fortune, and money. Regardless of how you spin it - or how you attempt to figure out his life from whichever angle you attempt to go down - this was his legacy - to build up an empire for himself. 

Now, back to the religious standpoint which is what all of this is points to.

Regardless of whether NCK is correct, or Tonto is correct, or all the other commentators are correct - no matter what angle you look at so long as all the facts are considered - the evidence stands that religiously, HWA was completely and absolutely irrelevant in the world religious regime. HWA did nothing to further the Gospel or to proclaim the Gospel in any long-lasting, effective way. Religiously, HWA changed absolutely nothing. HWA, religiously, did not even put a dent in the world empires of Organized Corporate Christianity. HWA did NOT usher in the Return of Jesus Christ. HWA did NOT precede the Great Tribulation. HWA's Worldwide Church of God did NOT take any long-term role of impact in the lives of 99.9% of all of Professing Christianity. HWA's Worldwide Church of God did NOT restore any "Gospel" that had not been preached in 1900 years to any point of international relevance. 

Indeed, from the standpoint of Religion (and not any other perspective), HWA was a complete, absolute, total failure in every sense of the word. HWA was as much of the world as any other Corporate Businessman or CEO. And his Church was as much of the world as any Corporate Business, complete with scandal, intrigue and drama inside and out. For Christians, this is the part that matters - not whether or not HWA was this or that in the worldly sense. What matters to Christians is the spiritual impact of Herbert Armstrong, not the physical. Even so, believe me, as many ex-members can clearly attest to, the physical impact was negatively enormous to those who believed his spiritual claims as a spiritual leader of a spiritual church, so-called. 

Herbert Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God was a farce and a scam - no matter how you look at it. Those who perpetrate his farce and scam refuse to look at the realities and are in denial to the realities to this very day - whether it's false prophesies or speculations, fear-mongering, scare-tactics, abuse, dictatorial tactics or autocratic tendencies - the spiritual aspect of the Worldwide Church of God was fully and completely dead, fueled by a worldly conceit, a worldly passion of success, a worldly ego and an inability to believe evidentiary truth in favor of his own delusional truth. This is the Herbert Armstrong that ex-members look at. This is the Herbert Armstrong legacy that we all remember. 

Whether or not he was this or that in the worldly scene? That is neither here, nor is it there. Because what he claimed to be - spiritually and religiously - is not who he was. And that is the Herbert Armstrong that we as ex-members trusted, believed we knew, and supported with our livelihoods.  What he was was a liar, narcissistic scam artist and first-class con who was out to make something great of himself - and to hell with anyone who dared get in his way of his self-centered vision to Make Himself Great. And this is what Herbert Armstrong was all about - himself.

submitted by SHT

51 comments:

Byker Bob said...

Good analysis. It certainly raises the fundamental issue as to whether “conversion” was even available or possible through the Radio or Worldwide Church of God. Ultimately, the HWA of the early part of his autobigraphy never changed his spots. His “soul print” remained consistent throughout his life, although Loma was said to have reigned him in somewhat.

BB

Anonymous said...

as much as it bugs you, HWA, with all of his failings, was used by God to draw untold numbers of people in His Church.

I'm sure that HWA was/is not the only one used by God in such a way, and had HWA not responded, God would have used someone else (and that someone else would probably be the topic of disgust on this blog or one like it)

face it, the Sabbath, the annual holy days, the food laws, etc etc are to be kept, and no amount of trashing HWA will change that.

you are very bitter, and I think it's because you are not focused on truth, but on your hatred of HWA....and that's sad.

and for the record, I think HWA was just a man, and he did his job...God will determine how well he did it and what his reward is...as for now, he is simply dead awaiting the resurrection.

Anonymous said...

So should us commentors start to draw attention to the (regularly-appearing) typos and mistakes in articles on this site when composing our responses and questions...or would that just be appear to be a petty distraction from whatever real point we're really trying to make with our prose?

At least we are much more likely to have the excuse of phone-posting.

Byker Bob said...

The thing is, 12:27, that most of the people who vociferously defend Armstrongism don’t exactly make the literacy scene. Typos, bad grammar, no working knowledge of the proper use of caps, inappropriate usage of words for which they clearly do not know the meanings, and horrible spelling litter their dissertations.

Nck, who is very capable of higher concepts, has stated (jokingly?) that he composes his entries while on the toilet. So you do have indication of higher intellect through the concepts, but his spelling sometimes masks the intellect.

BB

nck said...

The spelling in my posting is absolute crap. I do agree with that.

If we are paying attention to detail you should have pointed out the "witnissing" and "Dom Perinon" and other spelling errors in the other postings aswell. But hey, you are completely fair on the spelling.

Now to talk about the majors.

Suddenly you CHANGE the topic to the INFLUENCE HWA might have had, while the original posting was about EFFECT. That is a gamechanger.

When I call people uneducated on this blog I do not wish to diminish any of their real degrees at Duke or other institutions of learning, I am just saying that they are not aware of some of the real work some of our tithe dollars achieved and how (worldly) people of real consequence responded to that work.
Some of the Foundations established even to this day are still inexistence sponsoring real scientific progress. And for that matter the Globe theater is educating millions on culture. AND WE DID OUR SMALL PART. So if you say we left no legacy of consequence you are simply ignorant of the facts.


Now the religious part of HWA I have never commented on. I do know however that HWA's gospel was not centered on the person of Jesus, but rather the "coming of a new world order", nor was HWA's work centered on the making of many new disciples, but of "bearing some kind of witness to the world".

So again you are applying and inserting a misrepresentation of WCG and HWA and are simply proving that your understanding and expectations of WCG were plain wrong.

You might be right however on your current understanding about what the gospel is or how many disciples should be garnered. I just do not wish to comment on your current belief or understanding of religion. I am just commenting on your false representation of what WCG stood and did.

Now if you would just research the claims I made regarding okinawa and just the other few things of thousands of examples I could give, you would see that I am not lying.

And there is so much more sponsoring of research for certain disease, (Niven foundation), Oxford Chair on China affairs (all very logical today (your grandchildren might be learning chinese in school today) but revolutionary at the time) etc etc etc etc


MY CASE IS NOT THAT HWA WAS SOME KIND OF APOSTLE IN THE BIBLICAL SENSE. Althought I do claim he was an APOSTLE (ONE SEND FORTH) a MAILMAN to the elites of the day!!!!!!!!

And I do make a claim as to who was the one who send him.
I do not believe in "opening doors" in a miraculous way. But I do know of powers sympathetic to the message of the "unseen hand" of trade and western culture. And the sure deliverance at the time of a message of MUTUAL ASSURED DESTRUCTION in the battle against the Evil Empire. EVERY talk of HWA to the elites abroad centered around the US MAD policy. (unless the unseen hand would intervene), which by educated people during the Cold War would be largely understood as western capitalism free and open trade.


From a psychological perspective I regard HWA's Quaker upbringing as one of the main keys toward understanding his religion. The Quakers are/were a group who combined their philosophy and religion with practical Works. If you look at the Quaker museum, you will find all kinds of utensils and tools that are as simple and practical in their use. The work of AICF should be understood in that light. Not in the light of an effort to win souls for Christ.

nck


















Yes and No to HWA said...

Isa 49:3 And [God] said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel [aka Jesus Christ], in whom I will be glorified.
Isa 49:4 Then I [Jesus Christ] said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God.

SHT writes:

“Indeed, from the standpoint of Religion (and not any other perspective), HWA was a complete, absolute, total failure in every sense of the word.”

While I disagree with this conclusion, someone could have said something similar just under 2,000 years ago:

Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isa 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Lk 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

Jn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Jn 7:5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.

Ac 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

nck said...

I am so utterly dismayed by the spelling that I reposted it ints entirety without the spelling errors.


What utter nonsense by the uneducated.
Some of the distinctions HWA was awarded with are not for sale.
I spent many postings explaining who gave them and for what reasons. And still you come up with a crappy posting by some splinter of whom non ever engaged with real people of consequence. I will resume my postings on the handover of Okinawa, the American king of Thailand, the British king of Jordan, the American 5 block embassy in tiny Nepal, Marcos investments in New York, Ambassador College on the Swiss Italian border next to the CIA predecessor WWII headquarters. etc etc etc You utter inconsequential nincompoops.

The American emissaries thanking hwa==HWA for the Syria Mari digs as they reflected well on the American people in a Russian sphere of influence.
Japanese diplomacy and foreign investment in East Africa, Israel, South America, American covert support for the apartheid systen to keep South Africa in the Western Fold, worldwide sponsoring of operating costs for cia radio stations programming western news and promoting western culture.
And I am not even starting.
You are so incredibly ignorant.




Yes. It does not prove that Herbert did altar calls to make disciples and talk about Jesus to Denx Xiaoping. It does show that WCG made considerable effort to try and make an effort that another way of life was possible through a change of heart.

Did that effort succeed? That is everyones personal prerogative to judge.

nck

FFS said...

Anon 10:55

By what authority to you state that “HWA...was used by God to draw untold numbers of people in His church.” Used by God in WHAT WAY! You proclaim that the Sabbath and Holy Days are to be kept. Nope. Jesus said a NEW commandment He gives to us - to love God and to love our fellow human beings. he said nothing about the Sabbath and Holy Days. That’s OT.

You judge that SHT is bitter. Nope. He is reporting the truth of who HWA really was.

Yes, God is the ULTIMATE judge, but HWA’s fruits say that he was NOT of God.

Anon 12:27
I did this on my phone.

Anonymous said...

HWA always wanted to be someone important, a big shot. To start a church as a business, why would he put together a patchwork of doctrines that were so draconian. His theology was like the Edsel of religious teachings. He could have drawn many more tithe payers if he toned down some of the demands. If he didn't preach the observance of the Sabbath and holy days and all three tithes and avoiding doctors, he might have had a huge church with many more tithe payers. Perhaps he started off with some degree of sincerity, but then his old self kicked in and he went off the rails. I was in the WCG for only four years and attended AC for two. I'm a Christian and teach theology to pastors in Africa. Unlike so many who stayed in the church long-term, I didn't get hurt as many others did. I didn't suffer unnecessarily because of lack of medical care, nor did I end up broke at 70. I think that God used GTA to introduce me to Christianity, even though his church was a cult. The four years in the cult was sort of a round a bout journey where I learned to be wary of anything someone says about the Bible (I'm a Berean) and met the woman who became my wife. She is well worth having been in a cult for four years. I think God can use anyone He wants to get something done.

Anonymous said...

If you believe that HWA's personal failings did not stop God from using him, I suggest that you also look for the hand of God in the teachings of Charles Manson, L. Ron Hubbard, and Anton LaVey. LaVey, in fact, despite having an autobiography almost as fake as HWA's, had a reputation for sterling moral character in the service of his god.

Martha said...

I'm glad we're having this discussion, typos and all. As long as the COGs are around, HWA will still matter. Even among those who want to pretend he doesn't.

http://asbereansdid.blogspot.com/2014/11/herbert-w-armstrong-why-he-still-matters.html

http://asbereansdid.blogspot.com/2014/11/herbert-w-armstrongs-doctrines-and-fruit.html

http://asbereansdid.blogspot.com/2014/11/herbert-w-armstrong-and-todays-churches.html

We're not all bitter haters, despite what you think, or what you've been told to think. Trust me, I have no problem filling my time. Way too much to fit on my plate, actually. So maybe there's another reason some of us are here.

http://asbereansdid.blogspot.com/2019/01/on-personal-note-why-were-here.html

Anonymous said...

10.55PM,

I couldn't have said it better and more. For me, I cannot refute two truths: 1. The food laws. Since God is our Creator surely He knows what is best for our physical health. 2. No other religion or church teach the Plan of Salvation like WCG did.

These two are among the many truths that were revealed by God to mankind beginning with Adam to God's servants today.

TLA said...

When nck rambles on like that, I always assume he is joking.

Anonymous said...

10.55 PM
This and similar blogs would either not exist or would be a shadow of themselves if the issue was purely one of 'the Sabbath, the holy days, the food laws, etc'
The core issue is the abusive cult culture that Herb instituted. It's murderous and condemned from the cover to cover in the bible. White washing this with your 'HWA was just a man' doesn't sit with God, so don't expect to see your hero in the kingdom.
Herb and his minions have had their hour in the sun, and their 'reward' of the lake of fire awaits. Good riddance!

Anonymous said...

"HWA, with all of his failings, was used by God to draw untold numbers of people in His Church." What an empty, useless, unprovable statement! I'm sure fans of Benny Hinn and Jim Bakker would say exactly the same thing. Just because our bias causes us to 'feel' or 'believe' that something is true doesn't make it true. Things that are true must be provable. My question would be, could ANYTHING that HWA accomplished have happened WITHOUT a God making it happen? If the answer is that an individual who operated as a corporation could achieve the same results as HWA then there is nothing to suggest any activity of God whatsoever.

Anonymous said...

@ 7:21 AM, have you figured out yet that HWA taught only partial observance of the Bible's food laws? Not only did he reject the stuff the Jews have added that isn't in the Bible; he rejected a number of inconvenient food laws that are part of Scripture. For example, according to Leviticus 11:

- If you find a dead ant or a dead bug (other than a locust) in your oven, you must destroy the oven. Same for pots and pans; if you find a dead ant in a bowl, you must destroy that bowl.

- If someone cooks unclean food in your oven or on your range, you must destroy that oven or range.

The Bible makes no exception for unconverted family members. If your spouse cooks unclean food, you must destroy the cooking and/or storage implements used for that unclean food.

There are other examples of food laws that HWA ignored but that are plainly in the Bible. If God knows what's best for us, and HWA had a different idea, how do you justify following HWA's watered-down interpretation rather than the plain words of the Bible, unless HWA rather than God or the Bible is your authority?
God is that serious about His food laws. Surely He knows best what is best for your physical health, so surely you should do what He says, not ignore the Biblical (not Jewish interpretation) laws that HWA ignored.

nck said...

9:09

The food laws are just partially about health.

They are about the environment alsp ( look at pigs stables and acid waste) and ruminating dung producers and soil.

But mostly they are about "a people set apart from others."

One can achieve the age of 100 bu eating lots of pig and smoke a pipe.

But that is not the point or shows any understanding of how a better world can be achieved.

And yes a lot of good healthy people eat pig.

Nck

nck said...

The focus on health and dietary laws is midwestern american adventist culture.

For jews it was to separate them from the gentiles. And God needed some USP's to establish a special people and elite to show the way. Which in itself is American exclusivism.

Why are the only people in the western world that are circumcized Americans?

For the rest of the practitionars of said custom its just a minority group in the Middle East.

Nck

Anonymous said...

nck - I will resume my postings on the handover of Okinawa, the American king of Thailand, the British king of Jordan, the American 5 block embassy in tiny Nepal, Marcos investments in New York, Ambassador College on the Swiss Italian border next to the CIA predecessor WWII headquarters. etc etc etc You utter inconsequential nincompoops.

The American emissaries thanking hwa==HWA for the Syria Mari digs as they reflected well on the American people in a Russian sphere of influence.
Japanese diplomacy and foreign investment in East Africa, Israel, South America, American covert support for the apartheid systen to keep South Africa in the Western Fold, worldwide sponsoring of operating costs for cia radio stations programming western news and promoting western culture.

I sure HWA had nothing to do with Okinawa handover, What Ambassador college existed on the Swiss Italian border. I actually listened to the CIA's Radio Swan. The UD government funded it, not HWA. They may have funded with drug aales. What American King of Thailand. Are you mentally ill or on drugs?

Tonto said...

A long forgotten character in all of this is Osamu Gotoh. He was a chief agent in getting these international meetings for HWA.

There was bribing, and gifting of officials all up and down the governmental ladder by Gotoh to get those meetings. When leaders learned that Herbert would give them expensive gifts, write glowing accounts of their nation, and print their photograph on the front cover of his magazine The Plain Truth, an internationally circulated, full-color magazine, it was no wonder that these leaders were willing to grant a 30-minute interview to Herbert and have their picture taken with Herbert, Rader, and company.

I remember vividly watching when HWA met the premier of Japan (which was featured in the "Behind The Work" FOT video) . HWA presented a copy of the Plain Truth magazine to him, that featured many photographs of the premier, including the FRONT COVER.
The premier just quickly scanned the magazine looking for more pictures of himself, hoping that all the shots came out well of him in the multiple million circulation magazine (a fact that the premier had been briefed about). While the premier scampered to see photos of himself, he was totally ignoring HWA as he rambled to him.

Flurrys cult magazine "The Philadelphia Trumpet" has this photo from the same meeting...
https://www.thetrumpet.com/8376-japan-do-you-remember-herbert-w-armstrong

Preaching the Gospel to leaders who were overly eager to meet him? You have got to be kidding! It was all a mutually beneficial stroking of each other, for either or all of vanity lust and greed by all parties involved.

Anonymous said...

It would be interesting to take a poll of ALL of those who are left from the original WWCG, practicing and not, to see who still has a warm and fuzzy feeling about their years in the church. HWA was an egocentric narcissist who would stand up at the podium and proclaim "oooh me!" "Look who I met, look what they gave me, look what I gave them!" We members were ends to a means, we financially paved his way to pseudo notoriety, meanwhile those officials and dignitaries were most likely laughing up their sleeves. AICF got nowhere, dust in the wind.

nck said...

Interesting to see the ignorant reactions to my postings.

Just a quick reaction to help you start your search.

Most of the underfunded cia cold war propaganda radioprogramming would not have been possible without the paid religious broadcasting. Often the World Tomorrow broadcast provided for 20 percent of total operating costs of such radio station. Other religious broadcast were dwarved by wcg budgets. Remember wcg was one of the worlds biggest advertisers.

Okinawa. Even for ignoramouses that information can be found in open sources.

To the ridiculous person who seems to know for sure it was not I would ask to offer his explanation of the highest civilian distinction offered whilst I rest assured in the facts.


Regarding Tonto's remark regarding Nakasone spending 5 minutes on camera with HWA.

This was actually an incredible gesture by Nakasone of resoect toward his "father". We were informed in advance that he was only able to see HWA just 5 minutes before he had to go into the paris oecd meeting and talk to all world leaders. So whwt looks like disintetest to tonto was actually an incredible honor toward the Work. He had known HWA since his twenties and knew hwa had met every clanleader (japanese sons) who ruled the semi democracy that the americans had established post ww2 on japan. Still ruled by the samurai turned businessmen.

Nck

Anonymous said...

go to youtube and search on: talmud supremacist

you will not understand the bible, the mission of Jesus, the new or old testament, unless you understand it in the context of the talmud, which was written by rabbis

the old testament was for the outer circle, the talmud was for the inner circle

nck said...

Hwy ridiculous anonymous 9:52.

Re American king of thailand and beitish king of the hashemites.

DONT YOU POSSESS ANY GOOGLING SKILLS? Then please cease from participating on the internet and go smoke a pipe.

Nck

Been There said...

I worked in the offices of AICF and also went on several of HWA's overseas trips. These fantasies that NCK is passing off as fact about the CIA and other things are absurd and ridiculous. The "honor" garnered towards the work was because HWA opened his wallet and started programs in certain countries. They did nothing to advance the church but did garner goodwill because of good works. You can rest assured that Jesus Christ was not a factor in any of the overseas projects. AICF was created precisely so HWA did not have to mention the Worldwide Church of God.

Anonymous said...

Flurry is a twit.

-- sent from my private airplane

nck said...

Tonto

Now I explained Nakasones 5 minutes to you.

The reason why I am posting all this information is not to aggrandize HWA.

I am just akin to meet people through the internet who can tell me WHY Stanley Rader that very morning left an hour before the GII from Brussels to Paris and took n an expensive First Class ticket to Paris instead of just leaving together with HWA to Paris on the GII one and a half hour later?????

hwa only told that he had important affairs to attend before meeting up for the nakasone meeting at the oecd. Just like the church paper reports many times that "HWA arrived back in Los Angeles while Rader left at the fuel stop in Washington DC, to attend business".

nck

nck said...

"Been there"

You have not consulted the academic research on the cia radio programming during the Cold War.

It mentions the World Tomorrow frequently as a sine qua non.

The rest I agree with since that was exactly the mission statement of the AICF. So you are right there.

nck

Tess said...

Herbert armstrongs value is that he and many in the wwcg demonstrated that knowledge is not enough. When you just have knowledge without gods spirit of love kindness compassion humility etc you have an organisation like the Pharisees of Judea at the time of Christ. Christ told everyone to get away from those leaders and to not be like them. This and other recent discussions on Banned have brought this out I MO. Ps the idea that nck is an intelligent educated lawyer had me laughing.

Anonymous said...

All of this prompts my recollection of my first perception that all was not what it was purported to be in the WCG.

I was, perhaps, half way through my 13-year stint in Armstrong’s church. I and my family had suffered mightily from my “joining.” My wife and kids refused to affiliate in any way (wise).

I remember some recording from “Headquarters” being broadcast as the sermon message, telling about HWA’s venture into some distant official chamber, where he met with some government officials. Good. I wanted to hear just how the great man conveyed his special Gospel message. I was going to hear if from the Master himself.

But it came down to the frequent and famous, “There will be a great hand from somewhere....” Nothing more. Utterly vacant. without direction or information.

It took another few years for me to come to my senses. But that episode sunk through my hardened skull. The man said absolutely nothing, made no reference to anything I heard (and endured) each Sabbath.

A few of my tithe pennies paid for the fuel in his private jet to get him to that distant event.

What a waste. What a fraud. (And, what a fool, me, those years.)

Anonymous said...

All of you seem to forget that there has never been a more well travelled, more educated, and more loyal man in the COG than nck. He is the Dos Equis man of the church. He has done everything and seen everything while we are uneducated nincompoops and ignoramuses. I have seen too many of his ilk in the decades I was part of the church. They are the same people who end up falling for so many of the dumb conspiracy theories.

nck said...

1:12

Thank you for your contribution and thorough research.

You forget that you once fell for the religious aspects of the church, so who is the dumbass.

nck

Tess said...

Re the law. It is not the laws that Armstrong taught that are the problem it was the proud controlling nasty kind of government he promoted. Christ condemned this kind of behaviour. Hwa had no idea about how to be a godly person. He didn't model kindness compassion love or mercy. He modelled greed arrogance self aggrandisement and authoritarianism. The minions attempted and desired to emulate him and his character rather than Christ. The forcing of tithing for people who had no increase made a mockery of our generous God and has turned many away from God. Hwa gave cause for people to blaspheme the name of god. This was a disgrace. The people who still copy his behaviour cause so much trouble and suffering today and turn people away from God. Knowledge of the law was the only thing Herbert had and he used it in a way that produced bad results. Today people still think that money is the answer to teaching about God. Where does how you live your life and care for other people come into the picture. It just doesn't. Some talk about the wonderful example they are to their neighbours, with their tidy houses and mowed lawns. They have no idea what they're talking about.

Anonymous said...

I disagree with those mocking Herbs "strong hand from somewhere." For political and diplomatic reasons, these code words were used. These leaders weren't dummies. They knew what Herb meant. Their advisers would have filled them in if they had any doubts.
Many would have been privately informed of the churches apocalyptic prophesys.

Byker Bob said...

My guess would be that HWA would have a relatively low Q Score. (Google: Q Score).

There is just too much negativity tied up in the effect he had on his own followers for it to be otherwise.

This is important! Q Score is used in predicting the success of actors, politicians, and products. The number of people who love you and the number of people who hate you cancel one another out, often producing very low scores. The ambivalent also drag down the score. Many ACOG members would not participate in a survey rating HWA, so it would be difficult to obtain an accurate score, I’d guess the score would be below 50, and perhaps down in the single digits.

BB

Anonymous said...

Tess
HWA definitely had a bad character. One proof is his booklet 'Pagan holidays - or Gods holy days - which?' The original one with the red cover was extensively edited and replaced with the orange colored version. I recall many off statements in the original which revealed a person with the heart of a thug.

Ronco said...

Someone has to play devil's advocate and defend the indefensible even if it has to be NCK.

Wait, I thought John Paul II did away with that...

https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/27717/why-has-devils-advocate-office-been-changed

Never mind...

nck said...

Look this topic is a lot of fun.

Bottomline in 2 sentences:

-For SHT HWA is a total and utter failure by the standards of his (mainstream) Christianity
-For NCK HWA's religion should be held by the standard that defined his religion that he/we all defined outside of mainstream Christianity.

To explain it differently I find it utterly ridiculuous to measure the USA by the standards of French culture.

There you have it.

nck

nck said...

1:12 re Dos Equis

Sorry for my annoyed quip regarding your religiosity.
You made an interesting remark about conspiracy buffs.

Whereas I focus on politics and others on religion, it is indisputable that the two are interwined in the United States. This has been so since the foundation of this "nouveau riche" nation.

Whereas the sole objective of this blog is to point at a certain "HWA" as the source of all misery ever I am continually raising the question if HWA is just one of many and part of a broader all encompassing cultural movement within the USA. For instance the likes of John Hagee who made a big deal out of this "blood moon thing" in relation to the start of "the Great Tribulation" could be relegated to the real of lunacy IF NOT THE PRESENT ADMINISTRATION invited such person to invocate the new US Embassy in Jerusalem.

My point. RELIGION IS INTERTWINED WITH POLITICS and foreign relations in the USA. PROPHECY PROPAGANDISTS have in my opinion been an integral part of US foreign policy ever. I regard HWA as just a symptom of this larger and broader field where PROPHECY PROPAGANDISTS act as spokesmen for the government.

Now probably people will answer me and say, oh this John Hagee business of no consequence just as they claim HWA was of no consequence. Then why do I have pictures of Hagee in the White House and why did he preside over such controversial political act of the opening of the US Embassy in Jerusalem.


Getting the gist of what BB is hinting at when he said that nck is capable of grasping larger concepts albeit a terrible writer??

nck

TLA said...

Everything in the USA is business. Politics, religion, media, non-profits, even most businesses LOL

Anonymous said...

Nck
HWA repeatedly claimed that the bible, NOT your "encompassing cultural movement" as his reference point. Revelation states that Christians are judged by what's written in the books (ie, our deeds plus the ten commandments), not some "cultural movement." Herb knew this full well.
You dishonor yourself by jumping through moral loops as Herbs defence attorney.

nck said...

RONCO. ABSOLUTELY SPOTON.

Regarding the current value of "sainthood."

"Pope John Paul II eliminated the position of promoter fidei in 1983, ending 400 years of tradition. Since then, saints have been canonized at a rate about 20 times faster than in the early part of the twentieth century. Apparently it's now like the multiple Who's Who reference guides. If you're nominated, you're in. There's no opposition, thus it's lost it's meaning. And with no opposition, your great idea may not be developed to be of much importance."


There is no meaning, only devaluation and depreciation without the "Advocatus diaboli".

L Nicky

nck said...

5:27

Yes you are correct!!

Your assumption is that HWA knew what I/We know in retrospect.

Most of us cannot see the forrest because of the trees block our view.
That's why some commenters end their contributions with "time will tell."

nck

tess said...

In Revelation, there is a recurring phrase - "keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" as a description of faithful people of GOd. If Herbert couldn't bring himself to mention the name of Jesus Christ at the one on one conversations he had with world leaders, then he certainly failed to fit this description. Also the phrase"who have kept my word and not denied my name is right there as well. Rev 3:8 There seem to be people who follow Herbert and copy him and those who wish to follow Jesus Christ. There is a telling phrase in Revelation, "the synagogue of satan" At the time of Christ, it was obvious that the Pharisees and religious leaders kept the commandments but they hated Christ because he was a really great person and had him eliminated. They didn't want a bar of Him. Now, there seem to be people who want to keep the holy days etc, and don't want a ham sandwich, but they think Herbert is the source of their knowledge and salvation. Are they of the synagogue of satan? There are those in the cogs who are quite unpleasant and demeaning to those they regard as beneath them, they mistreat them and dismiss them as nothing. Herbert is still the focus for many people who seem to ignore the kind of person Jesus Christ was/is and promote the worship of a greedy proud man as their religion.

Anonymous said...

The Catholic church needs more saints, to make up for all the sinners.

nck said...

Tess

I admire your focus on the big picture.

Regarding hwa. He would not have been granted many introductions as "an american religious leader".

Most of the cold war diplomats of the non alligned nations and certainly those plagued by communism blatantly stated so. The Chinese extended the invitation only after they wanted to distance themselves from Russian communism, conversation excerpts reveal.

The cloak of, a philosopher of humanities, a philantropist, a newscaster, one sent forth to announce and witness toward a new world order, earned hwa/and thus our former wcg identities by extension the title of "much needed navigators" for politicians to steer on and trust.

(lebanese and cypriote words), sri lankan ( the more you give the more you get, after the tamil war), etc etc

For all of the cloak words, descriptions of jesus could be found in the new testament.

Under Jimmy Carter "moral diplomacy" with the explicit use of religious leaders, even became a matter of policy in international diplomacy. And Reagan of course had been a regular visitor to the Auditorium and an avid proponent of and fervent believer in nuclear armageddon even more so than hwa.

The files show that the soviet empire was partially brought down by the kgb assessment that "reagan really believed the madness of MAD, for a 100 percent and would act upon it if taken to the task". Moreover Reagan coined and divided the world into "good" and "the evil" empire.

That is no small thing. And the kgb trusted reagans apocalyptic, linear ( beginning and end) protestant worldview as genuine. So was HWA perceived as genuine, when he YELLED at the elites that only "an unseen hand would save them from annihilation."


I know. This has nothing to do with your personal and genuine belief in a personal savior. But hey, you are not under investigation here. Hwa is, as relating to his philosophy.

Nck

nck said...

Of course there are the reports how Ron Reagan and his staff found the members of the church strange.

Yet. A multimillion viewership of a propaganda program foretelling the end of the world plastering the american people is an instant recognizable mass psychology opp. And this time it was free for both the republican ran cia and president. To keep the american people herded to vote "right" and be driven by the subliminal fear of annihilation.

You have no idea how difficult it is in a democracy with fat spoiled rich people to keep the incentive for war alive.

Later on of course the first lady reagan worked with the church. First to keep lefty drugs away from the conservative mind/voter.

But later in the most important field of american - china relations.

(another program got bejing its own ambassador auditorium copy) It is still running to this day and influencing the minds of millions of chinese for the good of humanity and focus on our commonalities.

Nck

Anonymous said...

This is to inform you that even if you continue to denigrate the late Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong, his legacy in Jerusalem continues:

http://jerusalemfoundation.org/news-updates/2018/honoring-40-years-of-friendship.aspx

http://jerusalemfoundation.org/news-updates/2019/even-our-philippine-friends-celebrated-tu-b’shvat.aspx

FYI, this is a strong witness against you and those who support your work. You will definitely be judged by God according to your works.

Anonymous said...

This is to inform you that even if you continue to denigrate the late Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong, his legacy in Jerusalem continues:

http://jerusalemfoundation.org/news-updates/2018/honoring-40-years-of-friendship.aspx

http://jerusalemfoundation.org/news-updates/2019/even-our-philippine-friends-celebrated-tu-b’shvat.aspx

FYI, this is a strong witness against you and those who support your work. You will definitely be judged by God according to your works.

the Ocelot said...

The age of aquairus!

Anonymous said...

HWA was right about one thing. Jesus was ONLY a Messenger. God is the Father and only one God. The Quran of Islam not only tells us this, but he never did die on the cross either. The appearance of Jesus was put on another man (ie Judas, Gospel of Barnabus).
The first murder required no sacrifice, merely a mark.
This from a book, the Quran that upholds the Jewish Sabbath in four Surahs.