Friday, May 3, 2019

The Unspoken Splinter in the Church of God Experience-The High Price of Losing Faith in Faith



                                       When Leaving The Faith Costs Your Everything

According to studies, institutionalized religion is losing its grip in The United States. Those who identify themselves as religiously unaffiliated (“the nones”) in America—persons who check “atheist,” “agnostic,” or “none of the above” on surveys—rose from 16 percent in 2007 to 23 percent in 2014. According to Pew Research, atheists make up 3.1 percent of American adults today; in 2007 it was 1.6 percent. Evidence shows that “the nones” are quickly losing their belief in God and becoming increasingly secular.
While there are significant demographic changes occurring in the U.S., as a phenomenon, atheism is still a long way from having the lion’s share of the American identity; religion still dominates our social world.
America is still “Christ haunted”—to use the words of Flannery O’Connor. Fears of public shunning and the risk of losing family connections and employment, keep many atheists quiet about their identity. There is a significant difficulty in being honest about disbelief in a country where prominent religious leaders warn that it leads to a nation’s demise.
“This liberal godless kind of what they call ‘reason’ should concern every freedom-loving American,” said Franklin Graham, about The Reason Rally on Facebook. “Here’s a warning— If you remove God, you remove God’s hand of blessing. That’s been shown over and over throughout history.”
In a study from 2014, which asked Americans to rate how open they were to having some religious and nonreligious persons becoming family members, the only group that ranked lower than atheists were Muslims. For those Americans who have left a faith and felt the costs, this is not shocking news.
“I have 5 grandchildren now, and 4 of them I have never held,” says Dave Warnock, a former pastor and now board member for The Clergy Project (TCP), a safe place and network for former religious professionals who no longer have supernatural beliefs. (Full disclosure: this author is a member of TCP.)
“They [his children] also withhold relationships from my wife—their mother, simply because she stays married to me, an apostate. They really do believe that the best form of love is to shun me and pray that the pain of that will bring me to repentance and back to God—from whom they think I am just running. They cannot conceive of the fact that I no longer believe that a supernatural god exists.”
Dave is one of 710 members of TCP, whose reach is global. Most have a Christian background, but a few are from Buddhist, Jewish, and Muslim traditions, though not all are out of the closet about being nonbelievers.
After 36 years in the Evangelical Charismatic movement in Tennessee, Dave left his faith. “For me,” he says, “it all started with a critical examination of the Bible and how it came to be…when I quit making excuses for the inconsistencies and contradictions, it started to have some gaping holes in it.”
After enough time in rigorous study, he says he saw the Bible as a collection of books written by very human individuals. Now he’s a stranger and pilgrim in a foreign land. “I feel like an alien here in the south. It’s all about where you go to church here,” he says.
Dave is not alone.
“My faith was the deepest, most sincere kind,” says Samantha (last name withheld), a former conservative Christian, who was firmly entrenched in the world of biblical inerrancy and Creationism. “Every thought in my mind was literally, how can I please God?”
Featured at the website of Answers in Genesis—the controversial creationist organization responsible for the Creation Museum and the forthcoming Ark Encounter—for her promotion of Creationism and awarded a scholarship from another creationist organization, she was a true believer. She was married at 19—saving herself for her husband to be—and like many evangelicals, submitted to a patriarchal order once married.
That is when her problems began, she says.
“Marriage was a very harsh disappointment for me,” she recalls. “He…took advantage of my beliefs that a wife is supposed to submit to her husband, and was very controlling and verbally abusive. It was like a very cruel game of Simon Says.” But she believed that it was God’s will for her, so she stayed married.
Her faith didn’t begin to unravel until she took a class on the Bible in college in 2011. She discovered the historical context in which the Bible was written, how it came together, and the more she learned about it, the less she believed. She also discovered that she had to leave her ex-husband, simultaneously coming out not only as an atheist, but also as bisexual.
While her siblings and parents continued to embrace her, she found other relationships crumbling.
“I knew I was leaving my husband, but I did not expect to lose my whole social structure of Christian relationships and support. I was shamed for leaving my marriage, abhorred for being attracted to women, and I was even told that my newfound confidence came from the devil.”
While she misses the community she had in her church and her marriage ended in divorce, Samantha has found that through her initial trial she now has a richer life.
“I feel like I gained more than I walked away [from]. I do not feel inequal as a woman. I have had delightful sexual relationships with men and women—none of which have ever made me feel ashamed about my body as my husband did.”
Gender and sexual identity as presented in the Bible are common themes among those who leave Christianity.
“I came out as an atheist publicly almost two years ago,” says Alexis Wesley, a former missionary and now an orphan advocate living in California.
“I spent 30 years as a very devout evangelical Christian,” she adds. “I became disillusioned with the Bible only after many years studying it.” For a while, she was able to explain away its passages that portrayed women as seductresses, as weaker than men, and as their property, but eventually she came to see how damaging this was to marriages.
She and her husband, who remains a Christian, immediately felt the ramifications of her leaving her faith in her social life.
“I was told by a close family member that I should stop fostering or adopting, and definitely not have another biological child since I shouldn’t bring them into an atheist household.”
Those who helped support their adoptions financially began openly expressing their regret.
“Another Christian friend in my adoption support group said during a discussion [that]…it would be better for kids to die orphans who loved Jesus after hearing a missionary talk about him, than to bring them into homes where ‘Christ wasn’t honored.’”
Those closest to her didn’t yell or threaten to disown, as she expected. “It’s been harder in some ways than that,” she tells me, “cold shoulders, strained looks, nervous conversations, forced prayers, and fake pleasantries….hide heaps of anger or hurt.”
Others found steep economic and personal identity costs in their departure from their faith.
Mark Farmer was a dedicated missionary and in ministry for most of his life. “We had been totally committed as missionaries who had no fixed salary and never requested donations,” he tells me. They lived on the hope of God leading others to send them money through their missionary society. By his 40s, and after he and his wife, Jean, raised three children in Western Europe, he managed to secure a position with salary and benefits while continuing his ministry.
It was that dedication to his faith, as well as liberal arts and seminary educations, that pushed him to study his faith deeper and presented troubling questions about the Bible.
“In my early sixties, serving as pastor of an evangelical church in the Midwest…it dawned on me that not only was Christianity a human construct and the Bible a thoroughly human book, none of it was plausible any more….I no longer believed in a supernatural god.”
His children had already left their faith after becoming adults, though Jean remained a liberal Christian; they remain happily married. Deconverting meant breaking with a significant part of his wider social network—he separated amicably with his church, though he did retain some Christian friends. It cost him a “sense of self,” and left life economically unstable, he says. “The idea on which I had based my life had turned out to be an illusion.”
Stories like these are not uncommon among nonbelievers. Many reiterate that departing a faith is not something they take lightly, but they often have to choose between being honest about who they are and losing family, friends, a job, or all of the above.
As more deconversions happen, it may produce less of a social shock for these unaffiliated expats. Until then, events, like The Reason Rally, and its sponsoring organizations, are representing the concerns of secular individuals and encouraging others to make their presence known as well.

35 comments:

Byker Bob said...

Interestingly, there are now numerically more Christians in China than there are in the USA, and the numbers of Chinese Christians are growing. This is in spite of the fact that Christianity in China amounts to a secret society, of necessity completely underground because of severe penalties if discovered. Complete copies of the Bible are rare. Some have fragments or pages which are shared and exchanged.

One can only speculate as to the reasons behind this phenomenon, although it is easy to understand how people who were deprived of belief in a society of institutionalized atheism would find hope in belief in Jesus Christ.

Humans often vacillate between extremes, and one man’s enlightenment is often anothers’ dark ages. Who would have even believed as short a time as 15 years ago that we would have the type of president we now have, with the level of approval he seems to currently enjoy?

BB

Anonymous said...

eh, nothing new really..

galatians 1....

the parable of the sower...

but I do feel sad for those folks....

then you have sites like this one, where people not only turn away, but turn back and attack....the best you can hope for is to draw away the weakest...

hmmm, much like the lion.

Anonymous said...

I was disappointed by The Clergy Project when I looked into it.

It's an insular little group. It doesn't accept unordained ACOG members who have worked at their cult's HQ. It doesn't accept unpaid ACOG elders. It doesn't welcome ACOG deacons. It doesn't welcome people who have rejected BibleGod but who remain agnostic about the theoretical existence of some kind of deity, even a Blind Watchmaker. Although I didn't ask the specific question, my impression is that if you are open to the "simulation argument" you aren't sufficiently atheistic as to meet this group's criteria for membership.

Basically, after talking with some members, it's a group for people who were ordained as special above ordinary members of their religion, and who want to keep that feeling of being set apart as special even now that they are as militantly atheist as they were once religious.

Frankly, I don't see our Dennis as a great fit for the group, as he seems much more humble than the TCP members I talked with, and he is certainly much more affirming of the worth of people's individual journeys.

Anonymous said...

I'm keen on anything you blokes seem to be " up " also.
Such sensible employment along with credit reporting!
Remain the great works people We've included you to your blogroll.
I do think it’ll increase value of this site ??

Anonymous said...

I can understand the woman's new found confidence after dropping out of church. I had the same experience. That's because one is now free from busybody ministers who follow you around like a dog. Finally your life is your own. Which is the way God meant it to be.
I still believe she has thrown out the baby with the bathwater.

Anonymous said...

The practice of shunning is simply controlled violence. The country makes it illegal to murder or assault ex-members so the church tries to hurt them as much as they can without legal trouble.

DennisCDiehl said...

The Clergy Project is strict about being a behind the scenes service for full time paid pastors, many with incredible theological training and years in ministry only. It is not recovery from religion site. These are men and women who are endeavoring to break free from years of full time ministry having drawn personal conclusions about the veracity of their calling and their willingness to perpetuate it. . The price they will pay is predictably high. Loss of job, income, often divorce and family alienation. Some few commit suicide in the messiness of transitions that they don't want to have all those high prices to pay.

I know from experience here on Banned that some are quick to judge a man or woman in that position that just doestn' quit come what hell may come. Some here voice their disgust that someone would take a paycheck during this emotional and generally kept to themselves times as they think it through or wrestle with the implications both to their own faith story and whatever the hell is to come. All I can say to that is if you haven't been in that position with family responsibilities and real life stuff to see through, perhaps just leaving the judgement out of it on one's part is the kindest and best route. Walking in the shoes of others and all that.

I find it is the most sincere in their original faith who suffer the most when that faith is lost for many many reasons along the way academic and personal.

I am not personally involved in the ongoing "counseling" or just listening to those in transition at this time. I belong but am basically inactive. I do have a part of me that has come to see that jumping into the lives of others who simply must go through the fires of change may help them, but not serve me very well in my own progress.

At any rate, the Clergy Project does limit its help and availablility to the topic tier of full ministry in crisis for good reasons.

They won't even take a minister as a member to help others who have moved into any other kind of spirituality or practice such as meditation, Reiki, crystals, stones and other New Age beliefs in place of their loss of Christian faith and ministry. I personally wondered if they would take me because I had to assert I was not swapping one for the other. I do have a "spiritual but not religious" , as they say, side to me whatever that means. But my awe is in the natural world without the need for it to be intelligently designed or created etc as you well know. I do meditate quietly for my own peace of mind but to no end such as "enlightenment". I call a lot of bullshit on some of the practices my peers do with clients or recommend. I have done my homework on it for my profession. (Ear candling, ionic foot soaking, crystal healing, and even Reiki and I just finished 18 hours of Reiki Training! lol. I did it for CEU requirements and mostly because it was very relaxing. But I don't subscribe to it in any deeply spiritual sense. Quiet intentional touch is relaxing and I leave it at that. I was tired of how to classes on muscles and proceedures.

Byker Bob said...

I just happened to think of something that gave me a chuckle. Wouldn’t it be ironic if in 229 years when we reach Jewish (keeper of the oracles) year 6,000, the Christian religion were the dominant force in China? Imagine Gog and Magog being Sunday-keeping Christians rather than Communist hordes!

BB

DennisCDiehl said...

PS There is as much BS in alternative healing modalities that are out there as there is in the promises of religious practice. I am sensitive to not getting sucked into yet another idea that proves to be wishful thinking and if you call in right now, we'll include absolutely free detox foot patches that draw out all the toxins in your body while you sleep! lol.

Anonymous said...

"...If you remove God, you remove God’s hand of blessing. That’s been shown over and over throughout history.”

Says Franklin Graham...and Armstrongism too. Herbert loved this fearmongering tactic.

But is it true?

It's true that this IS a conclusion to which superstitious people of all stripes have jumped to over and over throughout history.

When misfortune occurs, can it ONLY be because the particular deities, whichever ones you might happen to believe in, have removed their hands of blessing?

Well, no...

There are literally innumerable reasons why things could occur. Sometimes these things are favorable to humans, and sometimes they're not. But how often do they have anything to do with us or anything we might have done or not done? Are we really as important as all that?

When calamities do occur, which of these innumerable gods should be on humanity's list of suspects? Any of them?

Or, which of these innumerable gods can we all rule out? Any of them?

Deities' "hands of blessing" have literally never been "shown" to have ever been the cause of anything. Not only is correlation not causation, in this case, there's not even a correlation! All we have here is wild superstitious speculation piled on top of wild superstitious assumption.

Superstitious people have always gotten a lot of exercise jumping to conclusions, so I guess it should not be surprising when superstitious people continue to jump to the same superstitious conclusions today that superstitious people have always jumped to.

That's light years from anybody, even religious zealots like Franklin Graham and fervent Armstrongists, having ever "shown" the "hands" of ANY gods have ever been the cause of anything.

Certainly historians have never "shown" this. And if historians haven't shown it, is it something that has ever been "shown" to occur in history, even once?

Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...

As one who fully understands the consequences of "being in the closet" and "coming out" of it, I empathize with the folks described in the article and feel nothing but compassion for their circumstances. Having said that, it is appropriate to point out that homosexuals do not have a choice in their sexual orientation, and folks do have the option to believe or not.
Still, alienation and loneliness are not things that most of us would want to take on personally or wish on others.
I have written extensively on the practice of excommunication/disfellowshipping/shunning. First, the practice violates the teachings/spirit of the ministry of the founder of Christianity (Jesus Christ). It also is inconsistent with the definition of love outlined in Paul's first epistle to the saints at Corinth. The fruits of the practice (alienation, bitterness, anger, resentment, humiliation, guilt, etc.) mark it as not only unproductive but also as detrimental to both those who practice it and those who are the objects of its use. Finally, the practice is inconsistent with the scriptures which touch on how to deal with errant/apostate/agitating members.
It is also important to remember that we should all respect each others journey. I've said it before - an evangelical atheist can be just as obnoxious as an evangelical Christian! In other words, if an atheist seeks to forcibly convert others to their way of thinking or insist on sharing their "enlightenment" with those "poor wretches who are still in the clutches of Bible God," then that person shouldn't be surprised if he/she becomes persona non grata in such circles.
Personally, I wish that more Christians would take the time to study the origins of their scriptures and faith. I think that such a study would greatly benefit anyone who chose to pursue it. Moreover, that kind of study does not inevitably lead to the conclusion that Christianity or the Bible should be abandoned. The trend away from human organizations is probably a good one. However, as Byker Bob pointed out in his comment, there is abundant evidence to suggest that this does not necessarily suggest a death spiral for the Christian faith.

Anonymous said...

Dennis observed:

At any rate, the Clergy Project does limit its help and availablility to the topic tier of full ministry in crisis for good reasons.

What is the "topic" tier? A Freudian slip for "top"? Yes, the Clergy Project people did strike me as thinking of themselves as the "top tier" above the ignorant masses whom they have failed to educate in the realities of Christianity. They have every right to associate with whomever they like, but I find it off-putting that this group would accept a Gerald or Stephen Flurry but reject a defrocked Dennis Leap or conscience-stricken Kieren Underwood. None of my business; I just find it reeks of an attitude I have already seen too much of in Armstrongism.

Anonymous said...

From the Clergy Project website, a reminder that the door swings both ways, and that confidences may be put at risk:

TCP Disavows Former Member Teresa McBain

Gerald Bronkar said...

Dennis, thank you for another helpful and thought-provoking post!

It is not difficult to understand why so many require an all-knowing, powerful, eternal creator God in their lives, who they can call "friend" and chat with in their lonely moments. Most of seek and need a degree of certainty in our lives. This spiritual friend can provide great comfort today, and for all their tomorrows. What a great concept! But is it real?

I will forever wonder how I got here, and why. No one can say with absolute certainty that there is no god or some kind of spiritual essence that is in control of the universe. It seems reasonable that some superior force had to "create" a beginning. On the other hand, no one has proven there is a god in charge who loves his creation.

When I look at the world and see hurricanes, drought, earthquakes, famine, disease, crime and war destroying human life, I ask, "Where are you God?" Even the animal kingdom survives by devouring the weaker species. Is this the work of a caring, loving God, or the result or evolution, natural selection and survival of the fittest?

When innocent people pray, but die due to sickness, war and crime, I must question God's existence, or at the very least his concern for his creation.

Sure, the Christian community blames it on Adam and Eve and the devil(Original Sin). A piss poor excuse for a lack of intervention from a loving God.

I cannot be certain there is no "supreme power" controlling the universe, but I will bet my life there is no Old Testament or New Testament YHVH waiting to judge and burn us if we worship on the wrong day, eat the wrong foods or belong to the wrong church. What a horrible man-made invention.

Living with some uncertainty has given me a life with vastly greater freedom to be myself. I am thankful my mind was opened to the silliness of the Bible. When did it become Holy?

DennisCDiehl said...

Anonymous said...
Dennis observed:

At any rate, the Clergy Project does limit its help and availablility to the topic tier of full ministry in crisis for good reason.

I'm not sure what I intended to say but suspect that the spell picker put "topic tier" in place of something I can't recall. It should have conveyed the meaning of "Clergy Project does limit its help and availability to career and full time ministry in crisis for good reason"

"Career" may have come out "topic tier", and what a button pushing concept to convey to this crowd, lol.

Byker Bob said...

For all those who enjoy celebrating diversity and multiculturalism, I'd like to take this opportunity to wish you a wonderful holiday weekend!
I've got the makings for some awesome tacos, and will probably watch some Salma Hayek movies, and enjoy some dos Equis cerveza. Maybe even break out my vintage Santana vinyl. Happy Cinco de Mayo everyone!

BB

Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix said...

Si, Feliz Cinco de Mayo!

Anonymous said...

Interestingly, there are now numerically more Christians in China than there are in the USA.

Not true. In 2010 the Pew Foundation estimated about 35 million "underground" Christians and another 32 million split among the "approved" churches ("Chinese Catholic Church" which is doctrinally Catholic but functions more like an Orthodox national church, "Three-Self Patriotic Church," and the "China Christian Council"). Christianity in China is growing very quickly, but it has a way to go to reach the USA, where Pew and others estimate 100 million people attend a Christian congregation at least weekly.

Anonymous said...

Gerald
You're back? You seem to have changed your atheistic song with "I cannot be certain that there is no supreme power."
"No one has proven that there is a God.." Of course they can't if one rigs the rules of the game. Some demand dancing angels in front of them as proof of Gods existence. This level of proof is absent in physics and chemistry. One cannot see, hear, smell or touch these laws. But their existence is believed by observing their effects. But this criteria is rejected when it comes to God. A double standard. One standard for me, another for thee.

BTW, only a portion of animals survive by devouring weaker species. Others survive by consuming vegetation or a combination of vegetations and other species.

One proof of Gods existence is observing the end of WW2. When the dust had settled, the commies had half of Europe, including East Germany. This was the perfect laboratory to prove/disprove communism. This involved speeding up the Russian advance by keeping the Nazis out of Moscow with the worse winter in 130 years. Hitler himself believed that he was divinely protected after over 20 failed assassination attempts. Preserving his life stopped the German generals from surrendering all of Germany to the Americans and British. And not forgetting Hitler's battle of the Bulge which slowed down the Americans advance by 5 months. Plus Hitlers initial miraculous victories etc, etc.

Anonymous said...

BTW, only a portion of animals survive by devouring weaker species. Others survive by consuming vegetation or a combination of vegetations and other species.

Plants are weaker species. The only living beings that don't sustain their lives by the deaths of other living entities are the very few that subsist entirely on fruit.

Byker Bob said...

7:50 ~ Did you just post that to have something to say??? You really need to refine your research skills a bit further if you intend to have a meaningful role in discussion.

You cited 2010 statistics. China’s annual rate of growth of baptized Christians is estimated as being 10%. If you combine the numbers you cited for “officially sanctioned” Christians, and your estimated number of underground Christians in 2010, and you compound the 67 million figure by 10% over the period of 2010 to 2018, the total number of Christians in China has grown from 67 million to 143.6 million. That figure may not tell the full story, however.

In 2006, Xiaowen Ye, then the head of the Chinese Communist Party’s (CCP) Religious Affairs Bureau reported in a closed door meeting at Peking University that Protestants (alone) in China numbered 110 million. Amongst the three officially sanctioned Christian churches in China, annual growth rate is estimated as being 6.5 % (official figures from the CCP). So, even at the lower 6.5 % growth rate, the total number of baptized Protestant Christians in 2006 grows to 234 million by 2018.

Generally accepted estimates in China indicate that there are between 2-4 times more baptized underground Christians in China than baptized members of the three government sanctioned Christian churches. At the lowest number (2), based on the most recent figures, this indicates an aggregate total of 147 million Christians in China in 2018, or 245 million at the highest ratio (4).

In fact, Chinese Christians not only outnumber American Christians in 2019, they also outnumber Chinese Communist Party members! Still, they comprise less than 20% of China’s 1.4 billion population. Lots more room for growth.

BB

Byker Bob said...

Meat provides a highly concentrated source of protein. The vegetarians whom I’ve known are really gung ho on the health aspects of a vegetarian lifestyle, but are very conscientious about meeting the challenges of compensating for the protein deficits inherent in a vegetarian diet. They must also strive to keep their food intake interesting when meat, fish, and poultry are off the table.

BB

Anonymous said...

10.51 AM
Would you care to explain why plants are species (living entities) but fruit isn't?

Gerald Bronkar said...

Anon, 5/4/19, 10:21 AM

FYI, I never entirely left. I still read this blog when I have time to kill. I am not at all interested in arguing what various Bible verses mean, or what some would like them to mean, as most have no relevance to my everyday life. There is some good advice and sweet sentiment in its pages but nothing I cannot derive from other sources. Arguing about what the Bible says or doesn't say is a total waste of time.

I have never declared myself to be an atheist, as the universe and life are inexplicable. I leave room for the possibility of a supreme power, and I would not be shocked to discover none exists, thus, the uncertainty. Can you follow the logic?

Your WWII story about Hitler, Germany and Russia is fascinating, if not convincing. Maybe your God is the real one to whom I should have been praying all these many years. Would you mind introducing Him/Her to to me? Per your post, you must have everything all figured out. Comfortable like a mushroom: In the dark and covered in shit.

BTW, do you have some reason for posting anonymously, or are you just a coward?

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:25 PM asked:

Would you care to explain why plants are species (living entities) but fruit isn't?

OK, I guess they don't teach kids biology anymore, especially ACOG kids. Fruit falls from plants to make more plants. The fruit plant doesn't die when the fruit leaves its branches.

Anonymous said...

Gerald
You have asked why people post anonymously before. As several people have pointed out, it has to do with having family members in these churches, or avoiding problems with their minister. No doubt you exercise your right to privacy when it's in your self interest. So there is no need to name call when others do the same.

Anonymous said...

2.49 PM
So while a apple is part of the apple tree, it is living. But the moment it's picked from the tree, it's no longer living. Hmm, I need to ponder this one.

Gerald Bronkar said...

Anon, 5/4/19, 4:33 PM

I understand why some post anonymously, but my question to YOU is "Why do you personally post anonymously"?? Are you protecting family members, or are you a salaried minister? What is your particular reason for hiding behind the anon designation?

Don't expect to throw jabs without a response. I am not a complete pacifist. I am willing to put my name out there and take shots; Dennis does the same, and for that, he has my respect.

Most who post are anonymous. Are they all "protecting" family, or do many just like to snipe at others without identification? In my opinion, this is cowardly. If that is your definition of "name calling", then so be it.

I only post on this site when I have something on topic to express. I do not get involved in arguments over what others wish the Bible to say. It's all very meaningless to me.

Anonymous said...

Gerald
In nature animals often survive by hiding or running away from danger. You yourself hide from dangerous people or situations.
As far as I'm concerned, you are trying to bully me into identifying myself with no regard for my personal safety. What does this say about your character or motives??

Anonymous said...

Gerald wrote:

I understand why some post anonymously, but my question to YOU is "Why do you personally post anonymously"?? Are you protecting family members, or are you a salaried minister? What is your particular reason for hiding behind the anon designation?

You're not a stupid man, Gerald, so I'm surprised by your questions. Any answer specific enough to satisfy you would also be specific enough to get the poster in trouble. "Hi, I'm the wife of an LCG minister" would quickly be matched to the location of the incidents/circumstances she reported, and she could destroy her family's livelihood. The same with, "I'm a salaried elder working with The Clergy Project to find employment that will use my skills so I can support my family" which could quickly ruin the family when the minister's affiliation became obvious through his comments.

Yes, there are a couple of trolls who will make baseless accusations to roil the different ACOGs. There are more than a few here who act like a$$ho!es even when signing a name (e.g. Kevin M.), and others who are anonymous a$$ho!es. Basically, if the mods here got rid of anonymity, the jerks would still post their jerk stuff, but the insiders would have to clam up in sharing their inside views of the ACOGs. There's nothing wrong with that, if that's what the mods desire, but the fact that this board became a pressure release valve for people trapped in the ACOGs tells me that there's a need for the function that anonymous posting provides.

Dennis said...

1211 All you have to say is "I have personal safety issues" and let it go at they. We have enough psychics on the site who divine motives, agendas and intent.

Gerald Bronkar said...

Hey Mister Anonymous,

You sound like an authoritative Armstrong minister with a need to judge my character and motives, and brand me "a bully". Or maybe you are a minister's wife (no balls). I seriously doubt you are protecting anybody or anything except your own ego. I don't believe you are hiding from any real danger.

I don't care who you are, I just want to expose you for the weak, spineless person you are. You are like an Isis terrorist who shoots your enemies like a sniper and then runs to a hospital or a school for protection. If you enjoy your little sniping game, have at it. I don't want to fight or pursue you now that I see what you are. You can have the last word.

Gerald Bronkar said...

Mister Anonymous,

Sorry to be so rough on you. After reading your last post it looks like we may be on the same side. I would love to see more people escape Armstrongism without being harm, and possibly that is also what motivates you as well. If so, please accept my apology.

Byker Bob said...

The funny thing is, drive-by posters attack both believers and nonbelievers. That’s just what they do, because they’re not interested in discussion, they’re manure stirrers who like to start trouble. Unfortunately, they can be difficult to ignore.

BB

Anonymous said...

The entire article is out of kilter with what happens with the Churches of God movement.

Deconverting with a reasonable amount of honesty to oneself and others may apply to Evangelicals, Baptists, Catholics and Christian Scientist and such.
But the complete oppposite goes on when Churches of God ministry and members deconvert.

They arrogantly want to deconvert everyone else around them. They emerge kamikarzi, men and women on a mission, wanting to war against true belivers from within their own church.
It is ridiculous and deluded and pure evil. They want innocent christian bystanders all slayen on the Mountians of Gilboa with them.

That is the crazy difference.

The unjust domineering goes both ways. True Christians who have a unshakeable faith in God can see through it all.

Why they have no honesty and live in a dishonest closet seeking how to destroy and hurt innocent believers is beyond me.