Let The Dead Bury The Dead:
I will call the young boy Billy. I was about 8 years old and Billy was about my age. We were friends at church. Billy was diagnosed with leukemia, prayer requests were made for him at church and a few months later he no longer came to church.
At the FOT Billy and his parents showed up. They placed him on a pallet during the double services held each day. Sometimes he stayed in the First Aid tent. He couldn't walk, very pale in color and laid lifeless on his pallet. He had been anointed and prayer requests had been made. So, he was going to be okay.
Sometime during the feast, Billy died. His parents had great faith and had totally trusted in God for healing. The minister said during the announcements, he would be healed in the 2nd Rez. He went on to say, Billy's parents decided to stay for the rest of the feast. Billy's father is allowing his unconverted parents to bury him. Citing the verse, "let the dead bury the dead."
4 or 5 months later Billy's mother was disfellowshipped from the church. She had become bitter over her son's death and was now in the 'bonds of Satan." Billy's dad was still attending when we moved out of the area.
As an adult, I often wondered what the unconverted grandparent's reaction was. Getting a phone call that your grandson had died. BTW, please bury him for us. We're not coming to the funeral. We're staying for the rest of the feast.
From Facebook, used with permission
56 comments:
Another example of the cold, calloused, emotion-less, uncaring behavior of the Church putting a convention over and above the importance of the death of a child. I have heard many stories about skipping weddings and ceremonies like graduation because of the Sabbath or of a Holy Day - but I believe this may be the first time I have heard of parents skipping their own child's FUNERAL to attend the Feast. But it does not surprise me in the least.
The word toxic is not even close to being strong enough to describe the poison of Armstrongism. It literally deadens emotion and callouses the heart.
According to the bible, Israel mourned 30 days when Moses died. It's unnatural to keep feasting during the FOT when your kid has died.
While the example is abhorrent and should never have taken place, let's recall that this admonition is probably given many times, by many ministers in many Christian churches to cover what is perceived as misplaced Christian priorities. It is the Bible itself and Gospel Jesus that is responsible for this concept and not just some ill informed minister. One might think that Jesus was a bit schizophrenic with his compassion and understanding of people's family needs from time to time himself.
Luke 9:57 As they were walking along the road, a man said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.”
Modern meaning. If it's to church or the Feast or to hear Gerald Waterhouse , so be it. I go no matter)
58 Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”
Meaning: "Good because I'm about to see if you mean it"
59 He said to another man, “Follow me.”
Meaning: NOW not later.
But he replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”
Meaning: "I have a family and love them. My dad died and I'll be back when I show my love and respect for my family and father."
60 Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”
Meaning: "NO! Follow me now and leave those not called by me NOW take care of it.
61 Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say goodbye to my family.”
Meaning: So at least they know I was not murdered or ran away from them because I love my family.
62 Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”
Meaning: "NO!!! I said NOW! I am the way, the truth and the life, and if you don't do what I say and follow NOW, you are unfit for my calling."
Gospel Jesus is to blame for the many ridiculous stories and examples of modern church members reading this and applying it to any number of circumstances that fails to put their church first over family every time. Gospel Jesus at times talked like a heartless narcissist with no compassion or understanding of human kindness. I imagine him to also have left a path of embittered disciples along the way whose stories have not been told but would sound familiar.
Curiously enough, HWAs funeral was attended by Buddhist Priests, in full regalia, and walking down the street of the cemetery as part of the funeral procession.
There were also plenty of other "non church people" there as well, including Mayor Tom Bradley and even the (at the time) disfellowshipped and marked, Garner Ted Armstrong.
We had a turd of a minister in our area that told a family whose son had committed suicide that they should not grieve for him. The other children were not allowed to express any emotion about their brother. They ended up hating the church and their parents.
Dennis
Your 6.03 PM post is definitely food for thought. One initial point comes to mind. Christ was establishing a new world religion, so His 'harshness' was perhaps understandable.
6:47
Lord Gautama was not even attempting to found a religion. Merely seeking the source of suffering.
Of course Jesus knew this from the eastern philosophies that passed through the empire capital city of sephoris where his father built many houses and jesus worked long hours as a kid.
Those stupid temple priests wondered where a 12 year old lad could have acquired so much wisdom. The bible proves it was sephoris along the eastern trade route by not mentioning that city ones (huge imperial administrative trade and administrative center) just miles from "humble nazareth" without doctors or any kind of (sophist) ication.
Nck
This reminds me of an event back in the 60's at the FOT in Jekyll. I had a friend that attended in B'Ham Alabama, but lived in Huntsville. (We traveled long distances in those days, like a hundred miles or more). Jerry had epilepsy, and I saw him go into one of those 'fits' while I was talking to him. His Dad noticed that, grabbed him and laid him down against the wall until his tremors stopped. This made quite an impression on me as a teenager at that time.
A year or two later when Jerry was 14-15, we were staying at the Buccaneer Motel in Jekyll, (where many of the ministry stayed at that time), and although I was not there at that time, Jerry drowned in the pool. His Dad was talking to other men around the pool, and someone alerted them that there was this kid who just kept floating on his face! Jerry was dead. His parents took him home to bury him in Huntsville, and then returned to keep the end or last part of the feast. It was an act of faith and dedication, I reckon. :-(
A few years ago right after the UCG/COGWA split, we were in Branson and attended services for both groups a time or two. I don't remember which group it was, but do remember that Mike Blackwell announced that some man from out west, Kansas, Oklahoma or somewhere had died from a heart attack on the first day. He left a wife, and I think 4 children. Not one word was spoken about helping this family take their husband and dad back for burial, (don't know if that corporate church helped or not). He actually stated what a great thing it was for this man who was there to celebrate/picture the wonderful world tomorrow had died and the next thing he would see is that he is in the REAL thing! No sympathy, empathy, consideration or sorrow expressed for the family --- but his coldness, hardness and lack of qualifications were on display for all IMO. But I guess as long as HIS paycheck kept rolling in, all was good!
It is instructive to share these stories of instances where human compassion was greatly needed by people who had been bereaved, but that the people close to the situations were instructed by the ministry not to grieve or give vent to their emotions.
It has been my contention for years that this is one of the causes for DSM-IV Axis 2 personality disorders amongst church members and ex-members. Something normal and natural and good was literally excised from so many of us by our “spiritual guides.” If anybody has any doubts about this, I’d recommend reading up on personality disorders, because getting back these natural feelings is part of recovery, a very difficult part of recovery. The church’s cultic brainwashing caused horrible damage to the psyches of most members. Freedom from the borg is one element. Regaining what was taken away is an entirely different process.
BB
Anonymous said...
Dennis
Your 6.03 PM post is definitely food for thought. One initial point comes to mind. Christ was establishing a new world religion, so His 'harshness' was perhaps understandable.
Well honestly, very often here on Banned, it is easy to find examples of ministers saying things that are harsh, somewhat heartless and seem to lack a certain amount of common sense and they're doing so evoking scorn, bad memories and personal pain etc. But just as often, I at least, see the reason they say such is that IT IS IN THE BIBLE AS WHAT TO SAY IN SUCH MATTERS.
We can scorn Dave Pack but he thinks he is, along with his personality disorder and perhaps narcissistic tendencies, finding plenty of scripture to quote to fuel his foolishness.
Bob Thiel thinks he is a prophet because he finds in the Bible Bob Thiel Prophet Scriptures. He takes stock in dreams because the Bible does and dreams are not supernatural in nature we should know by now. Bronze age types thought it was God talking in their heads. Bronze age Bob and Iron Age Dave think the same and find plenty of scripture to back it up.
People get marked and disfellowshipped or dis-membered as I liked to refer to it because the Bible says to mark and do so, "no, with such a one not to eat". The Bible hands people over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so we do too. It goes on and on.
The core problem with fundamentalist and literal Christianity is the Bible itself. Old Testament and New for it from them that such draw their justifications that fuel their personalities and agendas. I know many sincere ministers who puzzle of just how to talk Bible talk, discipline and advice in our day an age where so much of it is obviously mistaken and ill informed opinion from a very long time ago.
Proverbs makes fun of those who drink too much, get sick, vomit and "go back and do it again." Alcohol addiction and craving is a biological hook not a silly joke of weak people who can't put it down. The ignorance of the day shines through in such a scripture.
"Be angry and sin not" might sound good, but once the molecules and peptides of emotion are literally released from the hypothalamus, they bind to cells and cause the emotions whether one likes it or not. "Calm down" is a function of the peptides releasing from the cell and returning it to normal, not "calming down"
All that to say that many of hurts and complaints here that go on and on and on year after year are experiences they had inflicted by men and ministry who found it in the Bible.
All my life I have had others ultimately try to shut me down with "It's in the Bible." To which I have come to say, "I don't care what the Bible says. It is mistaken and way out of date on that topic"
Read Job 38 "The LORD Speaks
1 Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm. He said: 2 “Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge? 3 Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. 4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand...."
And go through each challenge of "God" to Job on "Do you know" and in our age , we can yes, we do know where the snow and rain and wind comes from and why. We do know how animals give birth. We do know how the Universe formed along with the sun, moon, stars and our solar system. We know everything that Bronze Age God challenged Job with.
Today a God would have to say "Do you know the Higgs Boson?" "Can you explain Dark Matter and Dark Energy" "Have you seen parallel universes?" Tell me if you know! "How does a Black Hole work? Tell me if you know!" Do you understand light and the double split experiment? Answer me Job! "Do you know the answer to the Observation Problem and how it collapses the wave function by looking?" Speak up man!
Good news is that yes, we are getting a pretty handle on all this too. God of the Bible is an ever shrinking God as the gaps in what we know fill in and no longer fall into the category of special God knowledge . The God of the Gaps is getting squeezed by human research and knowledge into our amazing Universe with tools made by intelligent man not any God.
Dennis Diel said: “All my life I have had others ultimately try to shut me down with "It's in the Bible." To which I have come to say, "I don't care what the Bible says. It is mistaken and way out of date on that topic" ... “God of the Bible is an ever shrinking God as the gaps in what we know fill in and no longer fall into the category of special God knowledge . The God of the Gaps is getting squeezed by human research and knowledge into our amazing Universe with tools made by intelligent man not any God.”
Ahh now I see Dennis you’ve rejected Christianity and the God of the Bible for humanism and its god, i.e. man and his reason.
Dennis - WCG was highly selective of which teachings of Gospel Jesus they followed. Sell all your goods and give them to the poor was explained away.
Trying to take everything literally when some of it is plainly figurative causes some weird and strange explanations and doctrines.
Yahshua gave us signs to look for in proving which was the true assembly/church. He plainly stated that they will perform even greater miracles than what He did while on earth. Taking His words literally, the WCG and now its many splits, has proven that either they are not the true assemblies/churches or that they are totally out of step of what He taught.
Which is it?
Going by Yahshua's word, miracles and healing would be rampant within these groups. These signs would be fully evident as facts that they are truly the ones that Yahweh and Yahshua spoke about.
Consider this: If they are what they say they are, then why doesn't the Most High honor their prayers for healing and/or deliverance? Obviously something does not fit. I personally know that many of my prayers have been answered and I have witnessed evidence of divine intervention in my life, and to me, Elohim has proven His existence more than just a few times to me over the years.
I have concluded that He is more concerned with individuals than with church organizations and what they pretend to be. My relationship has been a one on one, just like that of Abraham and others had. So I say to those that are still members of these groups to come out of them and stand before your Elohim without the pretenders who are more interested in your money than you.
The bible is written by none other then human beings who injected their own theology and philosophy into its writings. We don't even know who wrote each book of the bible, we can only speculate. The bible is filled with stories of events that can't be backed-up as actually history because there is no historical documentation or scientific evidence to back them up. The bible is filled with contradictory statements of many important doctrinal issues. The common belief that every word of the bible is "God breathed" is contradicted by the bible text itself. The bible speaks loudly that it is written by none other then the hand of humans.
Yes! Finally someone writes about Situs Togel.
For all the positive Youth programmes the church has created, there is a chilling anti-child attitude that flys under the radar.
I only became aware of it after i had children.
I would say some despise children and despise families. Which is the complete opposite of everything Jesus Christ stands for.
If God would have created the human body the way that the bible was pieced together we would be nothing but a blob of unorganized cells or molecules that is unrecognizable as a living life form. My point is that if God is not the author of confusion then what appears to be a well organized creation contradicts the hodge- podge , patch work quilt, no rhyme or reason construction of the bible.
The belief that every word of the bible is literally accurate and truly written by the hand of God has resulted in a lot of harmful beliefs that have harmed or destroyed the lives of many people. The fruit of such a belief clearly shows the error of that way of thinking.
Anon said: "Ahh now I see Dennis you’ve rejected Christianity and the God of the Bible for humanism and its god, i.e. man and his reason. "
Humanism has no god nor is Evolution a "religion". Christianity has rejected 3000 plus gods that humans have come up with for one that evolved even in their own text from a Polytheistic start to one final true god. Well except for those who struggle to show how their version is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, all gods but one god. The concept of the Triune God is a convoluted answer to the problem of declaring Jesus as God in the flesh sending himself to earth to conceive himself, praying to himself, dying then resurrecting himself to return to himself. Of course there is the person hood of the Holy Spirit thrown in for a bit more confusion. It is Christianity's most divisive and confusing concept to explain but is taken on faith of course.
The just shall live by their faith That's what the scripture originally says and not "The Just shall live by faith." I find myself evidence based. If you can't show it you can't "know" it an all that. I have no problem being a conscious, hairless descendent from the ape family over the past 7 million years. I have no problem being composed of 14 billion year old stardust and all the elements born in the hearts of exploding stars. There are any number of things I would 'Like to believe" but wishing something were so does not make it so.
I am not afraid of having fallen away, become an apostate minister as Bob Thiel prefers to label me or a Minion of Satan as some here feel free to label me as. I was labeled a "High Priest of Molech" once but that is too long to get on a license plate.
I completely understand the sentiments, emotions, snark and views of everyone here and where they come from and why. Seeking the truth of the matter is what humans do. I simply don't find it all neatly contained in a Bronze and Iron Age book of contradictory views, political intrigue and Apostles who love and believer their own views and opinions on all things God and hate those of other Apostles who believe the same thing about their own views.
If there is a God. Perhaps there is. I can't prove it. And if getting the story absolutely correct and do the absolute correct things showing this God absolutely correct love worship and obedience or else is so important, the this God needs to show up in person and out all the middlemen. The Second Coming with all the associated drama and dividing sheep from goats does not count. There needs to be a credible first coming not clothed in the dark recesses of history, not actually witnessed by anyone (The Gospels are not eyewitness accounts of anything) . There is no way in our times to know what really happened or even if it did simply because a 2 to 3 thousand year old book says so. Men tell tales to their own ends.
Nor do I fear Satan, The Lake of Fire nor Eternal punishment for not getting it right in a mere moment in cosmological time of human existence. I don't mind going back to stardust again.
PS On a personal note:
I am ending my adventure here in Oregon and returning to South Carolina in a month to spend the rest of my life with the love of my life. I will be driving thru Los Angeles and stopping by to see Gary (Owner of this Blog for those that don't know) before heading out 40 across the country heading to the Carolinas. Be happy to meet anyone along the way if practical and convenient to the trip home. I will leave my very successful therapeutic massage practice here and go back to the one I had there. Love does what it does and she is a remarkable woman and a beautiful example of how star dust can arrange itself. :) I should be in LA sometime after the 20th of this month.
Dennis 6:00
I trust you at least councelled a (former) minister on this dating thing.
The ultimate Road Trip would be a drive from Oregon through La to SCarolina. But I guess you are flying over Las Vegas Graceland wedding Chapel on a safe 33000 ft.
From HWAs library back to "the heart of darkness" :-) The Lord works in mysterious ways indeed.
Nck
Cheers Dennis, have peace!
My mother buried my father at 40, and 2 adult sons in years past. She may have grieved, I don't know. Back in the "day" when someone died in the WCG the expression was, "well, he/she made it." That was supposed to make us feel better. As a kid, is was as incomprehensible as the Petra myth. Like they were replaceable, forgettable. I hated her for her heartlessness.
Dennis - best wishes to you and your love.
"I find myself evidence based. If you can't show it you can't "know" it an all that"
This statement appropriates "evidence" to the cause of atheism as if it were a natural and incontrovertible bedfellow. It neatly ignores all the evidence for a god.
If you can't show it, etc. Dennis knows that things exist but he cannot show you its source of being nor does his interpretation of reality admit of a source of being - a contradiction of this viewpoint.
He is, in the final analysis, an ardent advocate of naturalism - only natural phenomenal events and objects exist - a status that is forever logically incomplete.
NEO reacted to Dennis's statement:
"I find myself evidence based. If you can't show it you can't "know" it an all that"
This statement appropriates "evidence" to the cause of atheism as if it were a natural and incontrovertible bedfellow. It neatly ignores all the evidence for a god.
NEO may not realize that "all the evidence for a god" is equally applicable to YHVH, Allah, Thor, and Krishna, and to "unknowable beings smarter than humans." The world around us is full of evidence consistent with belief in a god, but it gives little or no direction as to which god should receive our belief. Yes, Dennis may be filtering the "evidence" through his presupposition that ambiguous evidence won't move him away from his naturalistic orientation. However, NEO seems unaware the he, too is filtering the evidence through a filter that presupposes belief.
This is why so many have found it appealing to imagine a White Throne Judgment during which God eliminates all the ambiguities about His existence and His demands on mankind. Unfortunately, there is no evidence for such a judgment, and if there is one there is no evidence that it's the judgment as envisioned by the ACOGs, as several other religions have similar ideas about the eventual final judgment.
I agree with Dennis that the fact that this incident (and others like it) occurred is abhorrent. Indeed, the general attitude toward grief within the WCG culture was very cold and completely lacking in compassion.
This attitude was justified by appealing to the notion that God and "His" will must take precedence before all (not an invalid notion, but it was grossly misapplied in this and other instances). In similar fashion, many within the church felt that these folks should be looking forward to the time of reunion with loved ones and the ultimate triumph over death (likewise, this is not an invalid notion, but it can obviously have terrible consequences in the wrong hands).
Unfortunately, these folks (along with many of their critics) ignore the many instances in Scripture where grief is validated and compassion is mandated. We are informed in those pages that Abraham, Isaac and David mourned over loved ones. We learn in those pages that Christ came to feel and understand Mary and Martha's grief over the loss of their brother and wept, even knowing that he was about to raise him from the dead (John 11). It is also reported in the gospel according to Matthew that Christ is reported to have said that those who mourn are blessed and that they would be comforted (Matthew 5:4). In the gospel according to Luke, we are informed that Christ quoted the prophet Isaiah and proclaimed that he was the one whom God had sent to heal the brokenhearted (Luke 4:14-21).
It should also be noted that there are alternative understandings of Paul's instructions to the Thessalonian Christians "that ye sorrow not" (I Thessalonians 4). Modern translations make plain to this reader that Paul intended only that Christians not mourn in the same way that people who have no hope of an afterlife mourn.
I hope your final years will be much happier with a love of your life to share them with. If you want a bed for the night going back east, we have a spare room here in Cottonwood, just south of I-40 and Flagstaff and north of I-10 and Phoenix. Phone #: 928-202-9020.
Continuation of my previous comment:
And, while I acknowledge that the Bible is full of contradictions, I think that we should be careful not to see contradictions where they do not exist. Scriptures should be understood within the context in which they were delivered.
Take for instance the verses taken by Dennis from the ninth chapter of Luke. If we read the entire chapter, it becomes clear that Jesus was speaking to his disciples about the commission to preach the gospel which he was then delivering to them.
He made clear that he wanted these men to be aware of the sacrifices that would be required of them in this service. After Peter's acknowledgement of the fact that he (Jesus) was the Messiah, he instructed them that "The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day. And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away? For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels." (Luke 9:22-26)
In other words, in the same manner that more had been expected of him, more was going to be expected of his apostles and evangelists! Christ sent out these emissaries to pave the way for his own preaching. And some of them were furious at the reception which they had been receiving. "Do you want us to zap them?" they asked.
Christ responded that they didn't understand the nature of the Spirit in which he had commissioned them to take part. This is the context of the verses that Dennis quoted in his remarks. He's not telling them to abandon their families. He IS clearly reinforcing the notion that they have to have their priorities straight to participate in THAT ministry!
Moreover, it is unfortunate that even in instances where one scripture clearly contradicts another that folks are sometimes unwilling to sight the contradictory evidence. Yes, the Old Testament God is sometimes portrayed as vengeful and petty; but "He" is also often portrayed as magnanimous and compassionate. We sometimes forget that these are MEN offering their impressions of God, "His" will and character (and those of us who are not literalists or fundamentalists are happy to acknowledge that some of the views expressed were flawed/wrong.
As someone who still holds Scripture in high regard, I believe we should interpret those writings within the context in which they appear, within the context of the times in which they were written and seek to understand whatever wider spiritual application they may have. And, even when we find disagreement/disharmony/contradiction, we should seek to establish where the weight of the evidence ends up - how does a particular scripture measure up to others which address the same topic. And finally, I believe that all of this can be aided/assisted/enhanced by our acceptance of the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Unfortunately, when some folks look at the evidence, they decide to throw the baby out with the bath water. For some, when a flaw is pointed out in a painting, they begin to see them everywhere (even where they do not in fact exist). Eventually, they conclude that the work before them is completely awful and unworthy of future consideration. This is a shame.
I want to say to all of the former and current Armstrongites who read this blog: There are numerous interpretations and conclusions available to you. The rejection of Herbert Armstrong's understanding of Scriptures does not have to lock you into a rejection of all things spiritual! Armstrong was wrong, but it doesn't necessarily follow that the God and book which he professed to follow are too!
sight = cite :) that happens when you're full of passion and writing in haste
How did my Christian ancestors cope, when families were 15 of which 6 survived and mother usually at age 38 according to my family records?
Nck
Congratulations Dennis! I am so happy to hear that you are moving away from a path of being alone toward a road to warmth and love. "Oh what a feeling, dancing on the ceiling!"
I hope you will continue to share your thoughts and opinions with us on this site as time permits.
Your courage in the face of adversity has been an inspiration to me. It is not easy to admit how wrong our thinking has been for much of our lives. It is difficult to finally recognize that all those Bible stories we were told as kids were from someone's fertile imagination, as is much of our once cherished Bible. It wasn't just HWA and his disciples.
In my opinion, it takes courage to live our lives with uncertainty. Like you, I have discarded my belief in the Bible and the god of the Bible. When thinking with a clear head, it seems obvious that the Bible is not holy. Also, like you, I cannot say there is no God. Without some mind and power greater than our own, the universe is, for me, impossible to explain. I am aware and conscious of my existence. How could consciousness be a product of evolution? Maybe someday via Higgs Boson or the Hadron Collider, science will explain matter, but so far we are still searching.
Both religion and science want to hold the authority of absolute knowledge. In the meantime, we live not knowing...agnostic. That is reality. Uncertainty is exciting! We do not and cannot know the future. Believers are unable to deal with that lack of secure belief. That "not knowing and alone feeling" is foreign and uncomfortable for them, as it was for me for a time.
I look forward to your stop over in Southern California. Hopefully you, Gary and I can meet for coffee. Would you want to walk across the old campus grounds? I am planing on attending the mini-reunion on July 27th.
See you soon, my friend!
well Dennis good luck with the love of your life. I admit I am just an old skeptic but I am always amazed at how elderly people can still fall in love with little discretion, not to say this is how you are Dennis, but from reading your posts for awhile you seem to be a person who has a great need for 'love' or 'meaningful relationships'. Lucky you that you are still healthy and good looking (from your photos).
As for the story about the boy who died and his parents remaining at the feast.....I can believe it. These kind of things have forever tainted my soul with sadness, and any ability to believe there is much good about humanity. Its not just the church either, how many people forsake their children for a questionable ideology. In the Bible there is the story of Abraham prepared to kill Isaac, Jobs daughters, descendents cursed until the 3rd and 4th generation ..... and countless episodes where children are collateral damage.
Thank you TLA
Miller, what you actually find is one author portrays Jesus as compassionate as in John, as thought insane by family as in Mark. As harsh as in Luke and as a psychopathic vengeful narcissist in Revelation. And too, just because the Good Fairy Godmother was kind to Cinderella in a story does not mean she really existed
Dennis, Don't you think it's a tad simplistic to summarize these different accounts in a couple of sentences? After all scholars have proposed that the evidence suggests that the authors of the gospel accounts may have borrowed from earlier writings and each other and that their work was very likely subsequently amended by others. And, just because Cinderella is a fictional fairy tale, doesn't mean that it is completely devoid of truth or that there are no valuable lessons to be gleaned from it.
Since we know that humans authored Scripture, are you suggesting that humans are incapable of arriving at truth - that because the human mind is limited and prone to error that it doesn't have the capacity to imagine something better. Critics may find fault with the moon in Vincent van Gogh's The Starry Night and remind us that he had mental problems. There is a reason, however, that the painting has enjoyed such wide acclaim - many of us see the author's inspiration in the finished product.
Thanks Gerald and 1135. Yep, pic is a few weeks old. Parents lived to just under 100m She is intelligent, beautiful in every way and we have known each other for 28 years. She used to stare back at me when giving sermons. Long story. We share our current professions in common as well. I admit to being the hopefully romantic. She totally understands me and I her having the WCG story in common. Her being a bit younger will probably keep me on the planet longer. If you saw her picture I'd get nothing but "you dog!" Lol
I also at one time heard these stories about a death at the feast and how the 'family' put their trust in the armstrong god and stuck to it to the end of the 8 days.
No way that is normal. The whole religion is a abomination. One has to ask, "what the fuck is wrong with their god?" Or "what the fuck is wrong with these people that they would deny themselves the grieving process?" The whole premises of armstrongism is wrong. It does not allow for the expression of normal human emotions. A sign that armstrongism is a cult is written all over it.
On a happy note,
Dennis, I wish the very best to you on your move and relationship. You deserve some goodness and love in your corner of this world. Best to you my friend!
-James
Painful Truth Editor.
PS "You dog" as opposed to Minion of Satan and High Priest of Baalzebub which is a step up for sure :)
I, for one, would love to see her picture. I'm very happy for you.
Al Dexter said...
I, for one, would love to see her picture. I'm very happy for you.
You're on my Face Book Al, She's right there!
No one should characterize anyone who has survived the Armstrong roller coaster as a minion of Satan or the high priest of Beelzebub! On the contrary, we should all rejoice in the fact that Dennis has found at least some measure of peace and happiness and wish him well going forward. We should also respect and welcome his desire to share what he has learned on HIS journey.
My point is that my journey, Byker Bob's journey, Gary's journey, Dennis' journey isn't YOUR journey. We have all shared our experiences (and the conclusions we have reached based on them) on this blog and in other forums. And, I am certain that each one of us earnestly desires to be of some assistance/comfort to others who have survived Armstrongism or are currently in the clutches of one of the WCG's splinters. Nevertheless, it is my hope that no one in those circumstances will feel compelled to reach the same conclusions that any one of us has reached. Atheism and the complete abandonment of God and things spiritual is not the only sane and rational option available to you. Likewise, you don't have to embrace literalism and fundamentalism and reject modern science to still embrace the Bible.
Leaving Armstrongism is a golden opportunity to really PROVE ALL THINGS. Indeed, I believe that we were put on this earth to explore, question and learn.
Miller Jones
Evil does exist. Minions of Satan do exist. Crown stealers do exist.
Widows who didn't perceive the Pharisees true character and motives had their houses stolen by them. There are consequences to burying ones head in the sand.
Anonymous 6/5 @ 9:10,
Yes, evil does exist, but I don't see it in Dennis. Evil, however, can take the form of intolerance, resentment and jealousy of others. Is it burying ones head in the sand to avoid considering the opinions/perspectives of those we disagree with? I want to hear what you and Dennis have to say, I simply don't want you or him attempting to evangelize me and/or the other folks who come here for help/comfort!
Satan is a mythical character, and there are crooks and thieves in all societies, that’s why laws are necessary and fighting corruption is important. Or maybe we can send out thoughts and prayers (both useless exercus s in terms of making something happen).
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he did not exist.
Miller Jones
You say "you don't have to embrace literalism or fundamentalism and reject modern science to still embrace the bible." which sounds like evangelizing to me. So why complain about others evangelizing? Why are others point of view 'evangelizing' but Miller Jones points of view aren't?
Anonymous 6/5 @ 12:45
You seem to have missed everything in my comment that appeared before the sentence you chose to quote. :) And the quote is me calling out folks who present false dilemmas - that are stuck in binary either/or thinking! (e.g. The Bible is either all true or all false, If you can't believe all of it, you can't believe any of it, You can't believe in evolution and believe in God and/or the Bible, and other similar garbage)
Good, Dennis. I hadn't seen anything from you on Facebook for so long, I didn't think you were active anymore,
Anon 12:38 PM wrote:
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he did not exist.
Yeah, it's a great trick. The Flying Spaghetti Monster, unicorns, and Bigfoot have all perfected it as well. Heck, judging by the number of atheists out there, YHVH seems to be pretty good at pulling the same trick.
Best of luck in your new life, Dennis!
I wish that we’d been able to convince ourselves that HWA didn’t exist!
The impact from the deaths of people in the WCG, who often died from the lack of medical care, is a subject that hasn't been given enough attention.
I was only a child when I went with my mother to a member's home in Cincinnati, who was suffering from an intestinal blockage. Mrs. Mathis was lying on a bed in the dining room. By this time, she was extremely thin except for her extended stomach. Her eyes watched me but she was unable to speak.
To this day I am racked with guilt from not giving her a hug. I know I was only a child but that doesn't make any difference. I now understand only too well the reality of what she must have gone through and no amount of scriptural excuses can change that.
We were standing around her, the adults talking about her but no one addressed her. I now realize how humiliating and inhumane it was - it was like her awful condition set her apart when she should have been comforted. She should have been addressed.
As we were standing there, my mother whispered to me that the owners of the nearby liquor store were starting to ask questions because Mr. Mathis had bought almost all of the liquor in the store in trying to ease his wife's pain. I can remember the tone of my mother's voice, a combination of horror and panic. Horror about the amount of alcohol Mrs. Mathis must have consumed and panic because questions were being asked.
Mrs. Mathis died shortly thereafter.
Two months later Mr. Mathis died when his car ran into a tree.
Mr. and Mrs. Mathis have long been forgotten by 'the church' by now. No remembrances for them. Once they had died, I do not remember their names even being mentioned.
Ironically, Carn Catherwood who was Mrs. Mathis' minister, would develop his own intestinal blockage but of course he had the benefit of medical care. I wonder when was the last time he has even thought of Mrs. Mathis and her husband, or the family they left behind.
*The impact from the deaths of people in the WCG, who often died from the lack of medical care, is a subject that hasn't been given enough attention.
Let me correct my post to include the impact of the death of a loved one or friend along with those who died from lack of medical care.
After I posted, I read some of the other comments more closely and one caught my attention.
"My mother buried my father at 40, and 2 adult sons in years past. She may have grieved, I don't know. Back in the "day" when someone died in the WCG the expression was, "well, he/she made it." That was supposed to make us feel better. As a kid, is was as incomprehensible as the Petra myth. Like they were replaceable, forgettable. I hated her for her heartlessness."
As I read that post, I remembered a childhood friend in the WCG who went through something similar. When I first met her (we had just moved into her area), she poured her heart out to me over her grief over the lost of her father, which had happened two years previously.
Try to imagine being a child and not being allowed to grieve or be supported in that loss.
Before I met her, she had also lost a best friend in church due to the lack of medical care just a few weeks prior to meeting her. I was surprised because if she hadn't told me about it, I certainly would not have known about it from attending church.
'Like they were replaceable, forgettable.' Yes.
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