Wednesday, August 14, 2019

Finding Your Own Way: The Art of Being Yourself



You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist. 

Friedrich Nietzsche




Not every way that seems right to a man ends in death.  Not all wisdom men can come up with is foolishness.  Not all knowledge of human discovery make the gods laugh.  Not all ways of man are contrary to the ways of the gods either.   And not everyone that says there might not be an actual God is a fool.  And too, the gods are not easily perceived by just looking around at the physical world and all it contains. We have more specific answers to those things given by those who went the way of science that either give those that went the way of theology and religion pause or simply piss them off.  What the God of Job challenged him with, if he was so smart, could mostly be answered today by any high school kid without invoking the supernatural.  The way to be and think changes as knowledge increases.  Some think the increase of knowledge to be a bad thing and a sign of the end of time.  The one tree denied to humans in the Eden myth was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and evil and that way was not for humans in those times.  Those ways were just for the gods as was the way of living forever, so out you go.



In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs, it is the rule.

Individuals often know how life works and what the truth really is. But tragedy happens when a large number of people believe the lies. For example, a large number of people buy products sold by corporations that have no regard for the health of their customers.

There are no facts, only interpretations.

You don’t need to know the big truths of life, but you need to know the truths that apply to you. It is important to learn about life from our own perspective and know that there’s nothing as the absolute truth.


Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truths than lies. 

Keeping firm opinion about something means that you aren’t willing to change and expand. But change is the nature of life, so always question things and expect them to change over time.

And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who couldn’t hear the music.

In life, some people will love your work and your creativity, and others will hate it. Just because some can’t see your light doesn’t mean you should stop shining.

No one can construct for you the bridge upon which precisely you must cross the stream of life, no one but you yourself alone.

Everybody wants to find the magic pill for success. The truth is that it doesn’t exist. You need to build your own path by making mistakes and relying on your intuition.



Personally and speaking only for myself, finding "the way" in life via organizations or bodies of believers in this or that has not really been finding any way that I would want to follow. I grew up in the way to be as a Presbyterian kid. It was the way for my parents and being we are all born in the box our parents came from, that seemed to be the right and expected way to be.

 I then, at the ripe old age of 14,  found the way to be via the Worldwide Church of God and for decades settled on that being the way to be.  Other ways to be were suppressed only to have those ways  resurface as the years passed and my own life unfolded.


In time and through all the mud, the blood and the beer of being not only associated with the WCG but one of the coaches on the team, that way faded and was more than unsatisfying.  I read  books on other ways to be.

I found "No man can come to the Father except by me" to not be my way anymore. That makes no sense in my way of thinking. It actually seems weird and arrogant. Scary thing to think or say isn't it?

 I don't find any one person being the "Way, the Truth and the Life".  One person, real or imagined is not THE light to the world and one book  on the history, real or imagined, of an insignificant cultic folk who possess the only words of life does not convince me.  That's just my way.

 A way to be, and for me still is, was found in the writings of Eckhart Tolle who simply taught that being present in life, not living in the unchangeable past or the unknowable future, was not only wisdom but reality.  That is one way of being for me. He reminded me we all have a pain body that we feed if not careful and to our harm and for no good outcome. That helped me move on from the way I was and the potential to get stuck in the way I was, to the way I now am which is a far better way.  Many authors have come to the same conclusions about that being a better way to be.



Of course, the Bible being less than inerrant and the story less than I always was told and thought it to be is also my way. Decades of soaking in all made me this way.  This way angers some but another of my ways of being is not to care very much about that either.  It's ok if my ways are not your or anyone else's way or yours not mine.  We'll all live longer if we accept that there is no one right way to be.  There are no one true churches or any ONE faith ONCE delivered anymore than there are one or two chances in life to get it right and accept that one way.   At least that's my way of seeing it whether it is yours or not, and it's ok.


My way is a fascination with origins.  I like what we are learning about the Universe, it's origins and that of our own star and earth. I don't mind that every atom and mineral in my body came from the core of an exploding star. Makes me feel big not small and part of the one grand thing. That's just my way.

  I like that I am a hairless, conscious ape that has evolved over the past 2 million years from less conscious apes.    I don't mind that being my way of being and seeing the world around me through my own mind and musings. The why and how are the stuff of future discovery and not knowing everything is also a good way to be. It's not the destination so much as the journey.  That's my way.   In church I knew everything...just ask me.  That is not my way now.

There's no right way to be a woman; there's only a right way to be a human, which is to have respect for others. 

Anitta

In the past, there was only one way to look at relationships, that is not my way now. There was only one way to see the world. Ditto.  There was a need to all speak the same thing, correct or not. Not my way anymore. There are many ways to speak about many things depending.

I'd like to share a helpful article that is a nice balance to the concept,  "My way or the highway" we all grew up by those with real or imagined authority over our intellectual, moral and spiritual lives.

Sometimes There Is No Right Way


"I was raised in a home where a very common phrase was, “There’s a right way and a wrong way.”
The right way was the way my parents wanted things done. There were a great many rules surrounding the right way for nearly everything, in an attempt to ensure that we got it right, and, when the rules weren’t enough to enforce the rightness of our behavior, there were punishments, harsh words, and sometimes very public humiliation.
I’ve spent most of my adult life learning to deal with the fallout of this type of ingrained thinking, once important for emotional survival and physical safety, but no longer useful.
I work, now, to examine the precepts I live by, and whether they are helping me toward my goal of living a peaceful and conscious life. But there can still be some pretty huge blind spots in my view of things—places where I, myself, still expect those around me to conform to my concept of what is right. 
Three years ago, when I began to practice the base principles of radical unschooling, I fell headlong into one of these traps. It caused a great deal of pain, and nearly cost me my oldest and dearest friend.
We altered the way in which we interacted with our children from an authoritarian style to a partnership model. And I decided I would be a missionary for every other family who showed a glimmer of dissension (as all families, even mine, do, sometimes).
I had found a piece that was missing from the puzzle of my own life, and I was awed by the rapid and wonderful changes I saw within my family once I placed it.
I hadn’t yet learned that zeal and epiphanies in our lives can also be pitfalls; that not everyone will benefit from what benefits us. I was certain my way was perfect and even necessary—for everyone.
It can be easy to believe, when we find the answer to our life’s dilemmas, that they will solve everyone else’s problems, too—that we have found the one and only “right way.”
We may come from a place of positive intent, but we are no less invading another’s life or suggesting that they might not find their way, without us. We do not trust them to find their own answers, and that awareness can sting with unintended fierceness.
I believe now that these deeply rooted judgmental places may be within all of us who grew up judged, and dependent on the verdict of that judgment for safety or survival. 
What once helped us to survive the harsher places in our own childhoods can become a heavy and cumbersome burden, once we are grown.
It can hinder our relationships and our ability to create or maintain close connections, because, in insisting that we know what is right, we are also saying that the other is wrong.
I’ve never believed the phrase  “the ends justify the means.”
It seems so unfeeling of the harm, perhaps irreparable, that can be done to other beings, and to our relationships with those beings. And yet, I inflicted just this type of behavior on my dear friend, as though her life, and her ideas of right, must echo my own, else she would be forever wrong in my eyes.
I realize, now, that I was being invasive; I was thrusting myself and my brand-new “right way” upon another who had not asked for my judgment.
I didn’t stop to think, at the time, that my goals left no room for her to learn and grow at her own pace, in her own way, and for her own reasons.
I didn’t consider that my insistence upon my own version of the right way might bring her more hurt than healing; nor that my right way, which works such magic in our lives, might be absolutely wrong for her and her family—and that even if it was right, only they could judge that.
Now, I’ve learned (I hope, for the last time), that I can’t make others believe or live as I do; that I might cause irreparable harm to relationships when I react to their choices as though I had the “one true path.”
My friend and I needed to step away from each other’s lives in order to heal the damage I had done with my insistence and certainty about the right way and the wrong way. This freed her to find her own way, like mine in some aspects, and very unlike in others, but not ever mine to judge.
I have come to understand that she would not have had this certainty without making the journey she was called to make, with the obstacles and vistas she encountered along the way.
She always had the strength to make it; she was making it, in her own fashion, even while I was so forcefully urging her toward my right path. The true problem was not with her, but with my inability to see that.
Each of us makes decisions based on personality, beliefs, values, circumstances, ability, and many other factors that are diverse and variable.
None of us can see clearly enough into the life of another to see all the hows and whys of their living.
Any time I find myself thinking that I can, it has become a warning beacon alerting me to ingrained and unwanted attitudes.
Maybe the true value of these moments is in giving us yet another chance to ferret out those ingrained, black-and-white patterns so that we can see each other as-is, and to give others the space to determine for themselves their course in those nebulous areas that are neither right or wrong. 
Each time I remember to do this, I find that my own life opens up with possibilities I might have considered wrong, and so dismissed without even noticing them. My mind opens also to the reality that there are as many right ways as there are people and circumstances.
Letting go of judgments about right and wrong helps my relationship with my friend and others with whom I do not always agree; and it helps me to keep my awareness framed in possibilities rather than limitations.
So, these days, whether I agree with your way or not, I acknowledge that it is your way, and not mine.  
I will tend to making the choices and choosing the path that leads my way; you may have yours, and, perhaps, we will meet at some point along the journey, greet each other, and share the way for a while.
When our paths diverge again, I will bid you well for the portions of the journey we cannot share.





84 comments:

Byker Bob said...

The church taught us that knowing and observing the "right" doctrines was the reason why God favored us as a small and elite group with the understanding of end times prophecy. To me, there was so much misery, pain, and sacrifice growing up in a WCG family, all rationalized and justified by the spectre of 1975, that for me, 1975 would be the ultimate embodiment of "prove all things". In other words, the very threat of 1975 was such a huge, life-altering event, that it became a "one strike and you're out" thing regarding the church. If we endured years living on this event horizon, only to have it fail, there would he no second chances, and I would not accept backpedaling, and would not re-program in favor of the church. It could only mean that "we" (I love how they invoke that word) did not have the correct understanding, and therefore, we also did not have or understand the "right" doctrines, WCG exigesis or proof texts notwithstanding.

The intervening 44 years since the non-event have done absolutely nothing to demonstrate that I was wrong. It has become ludicrous to believe that "we" were just a little bit off on the timeline. The ridiculous circus and various clowns that have emerged amongst Armstrongites, and their impotence as warners of the world, have abundantly demonstrated that this was a totally bogus movement, a work "of men". Subsequent study has shown that the basic package of doctrines were simply one man's understanding. There is much greater depth available from those with an actual education. Armstrong theology was what happens when an advertising executive develops a marketing program, and sells it as the truth. Ah, but "He Was Right!" Too bad for the splinters that this title should be illustrated with a portrait of Gamaliel rather than that of HWA.

BB

Anonymous said...

Evolution is dead. Darwinism can only explain small changes. It can't explain how one species actually evolves into another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCxj7ZGfxAo



Anonymous said...

BB, yet you were wrong when you were sincerely an atheist. I would never expect you to forgive Armstrong, nor the WCG, but don't close your mind to the possibility that there may have been some things that were correct. Not because HWA taught them, since he stole everything, but because they make biblical sense. The feast days for one, HWA didn't write Zech. 14 which says Egypt and all nations will keep the Feast of Tabernacles. Also the Sabbath, HWA didn't write Is. 66 which says that all flesh will keep the Sabbath. Either the Holy Spirit inspired that as is or else it's wrong and the whole bible worthless.

TLA said...

Great post Dennis.
I am still studying intelligent design versus evolution and so far I see pros and cons with either approach.
Irreducible complexity seems to kill evolution.
The vast periods of time seem to kill intelligent design.

DennisCDiehl said...

919. Well, you just be you and I'll just be me :)

Anonymous said...

"The vast periods of time seem to kill intelligent design."

How does vast periods of time kill intelligent design? God is eternal. We have no clue what the age of the universe is, we can't see far enough. For all we know it's trillions times trillions of years old and continuing to expand while new galaxies are forming in the center which is too far away for us to see.

DennisCDiehl said...

Complexity is not as irreducible as some make it out to be. But folk gravitate towards the explanations that fit their prejudices or faith requirements.

If you put all of the history of the earth into 24 hours, humans appeared about 4 seconds ago. Dinosaurs about 20 minutes ago. Deep time is the time needed for slow changes leading to us and there has been plenty of it. Huge topics of course. Keep studying and you be you and I"ll be me :)

DennisCDiehl said...

faith restrictions not requirements.

DennisCDiehl said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DennisCDiehl said...

What's going to happen here with this post, which is not about evolution vs anything at all, is that, because one person goes off topic, a food fight ensues on a topic unrelated to the posting. The point will be missed. You watch lol.

Anonymous said...

Dennis, or the off topic subject is more interesting than the topic.

Anonymous said...

This lengthy statement by DD is based on a misunderstanding of history that has been recently especially underscored by the Dawkins-Dennett-Hitchens crowd. The idea is that at one time in history Man was making great progress in all dimensions of knowledge and then Christianity came along and suppressed this wonderful progress. And this caused untold human suffering and long periods of fallow intellect. Now the Age of Reason has set in and we are back on track in learning about the Universe and in due course we can stamp out the remaining vestiges of religion altogether and really make unfettered "progress" towards true enlightenment.

This facile rendition of history is all malarkey. History does not bear this out at all. You can read it yourself. And the modern Age of Reason has been marked by some of the most horrendous mass destructions one can imagine - some implemented by the followers of Nietzsche himself. (Sind wir nicht die Übermenschen? Ach, das schön ist.)

And this is supposed to be the post-Christian platform from which we are launched into true Enlightenment and a dewy-eyed appreciation of Nature? It is more like the foul subterranean passage to materialism, nihilism, narcissism, banality and vapid libertarianism.

Anonymous said...

"Keeping firm opinion about something means that you aren’t willing to change and expand."

Hey D.D., instead of silly statements, try studying into logical fallacies and the scientific METHOD. (Not fabricated fake scientific data).

Anonymous said...

I am not sure what is expected with this Posting, but it appears that Dennis has had a life that no one would want due to the WWCG experience or his past. My personal life included 50 years of WWCG created stronger Christian beliefs and a positive view the day when this life has finished its course. The beginning of my was started by my parents where members of an Anabaptist church and were bible keeping people with strict adherence to their beliefs. My wife and I were reared in churches with differentials in beliefs in how a Christian should live so we started looking at churches that we could agree on to raise our children. It was in 1958 when we decided to be baptized by ministers in the Radio Church of God. There were no churches in our area, but they sent two minister to our location and we were both baptized in time to take a trip to Texas for the First of Tabernacles.
That was the beginning of what was a religious journey that was filled with spiritual growth and development. I can honestly say that we were never forced to do anything that caused us to be separated us from either of our families or caused us to have our children a hardship in being what they wanted to be. Why can I say that? My life tells the story. When the WWCG began breaking apart we both recognized that it was time to withdraw our membership and focus on preparing ourselves and our families when our earthly life will be over. This was in the year 2000. Our whole life was not WWCG. It was a life with a successful business; strong relationships with church people when we were there; strong relationships with my wife's families while they were living and are; with my families while they were and are living. Our personal sons and daughters are senior citizens with adult sons and daughters plus families. What more can I ask for? ASB

Byker Bob said...

It’s not as clear cut as that, 10:17. We don’t even know when the feasts actually are today because of the numerous and severe calendar issues! Why is this important? If the high priest entered the Holy of Holies on the wrong day, the penalty was death. This is God telling us that it’s worse to keep the feasts on the wrong day than not to keep them at all. The Egyptians will be going up to Jerusalem to keep the feast. Motel 6 in Myrtle Beach is not Jerusalem.

There is also the issue of the original calendar, which the priests wrote as they were guided by the sun and moon each day, (which was how the calendar was compiled prior to Hillel II) versus the calendar of Hillel which was calculated mathematically (fixed) in advance. Hillel developed this method because he could foresee a time when the priesthood would no longer exist. The theocracy that was Israel actually did gradually cease to exist. The nation of Israel which was rebirthed following WW-II is not a theocracy.

Jesus was a Jew, not a Levite, and He is a priest after the order of Melchizedek. It was the tribe of Levi who had the authority over the administration of the Sinai covenant,
not the tribe of Judah.

Also, we’re under Noahchide law today, as pronounced by James, following the decision of the Jerusalem Council. As a matter of fact, Noahchide law is the basis for governance of all civilized nations today, in other words, it is written into our hearts. In the Kingdom, (restitution of all things), God will restore the times and methods of observance of the sabbath and holy days, so they can be kept correctly. Obviously the Armstrongs did not guess these right, otherwise, correct understanding of end times prophecies would have been revealed to us Anglo-Saxon gentiles. The reason the Egyptians will be held accountable in the future is that the truth will be known and undeniable. Until that time, Isaiah 1:14 is in play!

BB

Anonymous said...

ASB August 14, 2019 at 4:18 PM, and Anonymous August 14, 2019 at 10:17 AM

Very happy to know that there are some precious light in you people shining in the "dark" episode of RCG/WWCG. These are the salt of the earth. Keep posting such uplifting views to help the discouraged ex WWCG members who are struggling but still holding on to the precious truth once taught by HWA. Thank you, guys.

Yes DD, your way, my way.

Anonymous said...

Unless you’re trying to teach and maintain control of the classroom, what the hell do you care if the topic expands in other directions? A blog is one of the purest forms of democracy.

The bond inversion thingie happened today. Looks like we’re in for some nasty weather just in time for the presidential election.

DennisCDiehl said...

I was simply endeavoring to encourage individuality and being oneself in life and how the churches can take that from one if not careful. I illustrated it with some outcomes and example of my own journey out of group think into my own thinking through of the things that I always thought about even before allowing the church to tell me how it all was. I suppose the topics I repressed in favor of the church and Bible explanations for a time until I could no longer do that. I illustrated the post with a couple books that spoke to and informed me about my topics of interest. The additional article was a cautionary note on and the need to let others be themselves as well.

The rancor and personal attacks for posting such a simple topic that might help someone in transition from church to self is puzzling but typical anymore personally. I would encourage those of you who comment here so often about everything to post something of your own perspectives so we can have a look at them and your own journey out of WCG and the splinters for the benefit of others. Thanks to SHT, Concerned Sister and an occasional other for doing so.

It is true that this is the wrong audience and venue for the topics that interest me but still they are related to my own WCG and pastor experiences and how and why I reintroduced them into my own beliefs about many things I had allowed the church and pastor "requirements of thought and expression" to define for me. Too soon old and too late schmart as they say. My wish was to be helpful to others along the way and through the weeds.

Anonymous said...

Be yourself? Not at AC. In their Ambassador Club I was criticized because I spoke with a Bostonian accent and spoke to fast. BS. God likes variety, look at the birds, flowers and trees. In speech classes, as long as your presentation was in line, the content didn't matter. Sloppy research (simply finding information to support your biased views) was not important, only presentation. Just like HWA and GTA. Look good up front, don't worry about content. Same with the college. Looks great from the outside, no real scholarship on the inside. Indoctrination center, not an educational center.

nck said...

NEO

You don't know SHT about Nietzsche as follows from your posting.

Mass destruction happened in the 20th century because the technology was available.
Man has always been the same. At times the Las Vegas Casino shooter became leaders in history because of the power of their convictions. The old convictions died with WWI, that was the end of history. In the past the sword, axe and bow was used as a tool. Today your little cousin is practising his shooting skills on your mobile phone gameapp. Oh wait that latest remark is not proven by science.

Anyway, was Eve a vegetarian you suppose?? And the original sin an attempt by Eve to turn Adam into a vegetarian too?? What offering did God reject? Cains vegetarian offering of course.

Man seems to habitually sacrifice an offering of human meat too.

PS My musings are inspired by my impending visit to the offering place of moloch baal at carthage. Although scolars are not united conlusively on the origins of the 10.000 children corpses they found. Perhaps the Moloch people just buried children separately because they loved them so much.

I don't know. I do know that I know Nietzsche and he did by no means intend the meaning that perverted naziscolars later inserted. As a student I loved Nietzsche although the power of his message was somewhat dampened for me because he did not die a happy man...perhaps he wrote his powerful work because he was unhappy and craved for the power he lacked.

Why on earth would someone with a Bostonian accent be rejected since the Kennedy myth still swayed many at the time?

I have to many questions. No answers.

nck

Anonymous said...

5:23 We're under Noahchide laws today, why, because you said so? Acts 15 says no such thing. That's your personal interpretation, which is fine, if you would allow others personal interpretation as well. But your dogmatism doesn't allow that. You think that a priest going into the Holy of Holies on the wrong day proves the feasts can't be kept today? You think not going to Jerusalem makes Feast keeping impossible? You are a bigger legalist than you realize. Is. 1:14 isn't God saying that he hates His Feast days, he hated what Israel had turned them in to. Just as he hated sacrifices because Israel got to the point that they thought "I can sin any time I want I only have to offer a sacrifice and it will be forgiven", but God said that what he really wanted was a person trying to obey. You guys complain about the WCG pulling proof texts out of context but you do it all the time but you're too blind to see that.

Anonymous said...

4:15 The problem is that you're a broken record Dennis. You basically say the same thing in every post. I don't think you're trying to convince us, you're really trying to convince yourself. How many times have you defended your postings by telling others to post something themselves? Quit behaving like a minister and telling people what to do! If otgers want to post something they will, if they don't then they won't. Your constant hounding is getting annoying.

Byker Bob said...

Hey, 6:45, one of the zombies tried to correct me with some left over Armstrongism, equating one interpretation with God, as they always do. That’s been happening for the last 20 years on these forums and blogs. All I did was to respond to a challenge by presenting an alternative view which is based on some of the things I’ve learned from the Bible itself. Funny that someone would attempt to invert that, label it as legalism, and also raising the spectre of antinomianism. Nice consistency there!

Thanks for a great morning chuckle.

BB

nck said...

6:45

You are right about BB representing COG dogma in most extreme legalist way a lot of the time. I have jokingly called him a "fundamentalist" by the "requirements" he regularly cites.

It does not mean he believes it that way or is a legalist himself however. He just deliberately presents it that way.

I have made my peace with the fact that his tour of duty coincided with legalist times in rcg (mid to late sixties).

I neither consider him a liar anymore nor a legalist. He just never got into the more spiritual side of cog teaching.
(which I assume by the founders own statements that being so he belonged to a majority in the fold)

Nck

Anonymous said...

I don’t believe like Doug Winnail believes, but it seems silly to criticize him for his occasional repeats while one of our own is an even worst offender.

Anonymous said...

There was no more spiritual side, nck. We would have needed to go to other sources and teachers to get to a more spiritual place, and that was not allowed. Armstrongism itself failed to get to the more spiritual place.

BB

Anonymous said...

7:49 If you think my interpretation of Is. 1 is Armstrongism you had best read the whole chapter and quit pulling proof texts out of your ass. God was chastising them for being rebellious, a sinful nation, but you claim he was against His Feasts. Chuckle all that you want. Deny legalism all that you want, that doesn't make it so.

Anonymous said...

BB, you weren't there in the 80's so how do you know?

nck said...

BB
Dang you got me to agree again. (partly)


DD
Excellent topic. You are a true patriot and citizen of the world.

As Below, So Above
How do we tend to our nation and our world? By tending to ourselves and our pack. By playing OUR metagame and forcing the Powers to seek OUR attention and bend to OUR form, rather than surrendering our Identity for a scrap of their attention and the thin gruel of schadenfreude.

Andrew Fletcher, a Scottish patriot of the late 17th century who I’ll write a lot more about one day, famously said, “Let me write the songs of a nation, and I care not who writes its laws.”

By tending to ourselves and our pack … by playing OUR metagame … by forcing the Powers to seek OUR attention and bend to OUR form … we become patriots once again, but in a modern context of modern media and modern technology. We create a self-sustaining movement that works from the bottom up, not the top down. We will not be writing laws. We will be writing songs. These are the songs of Identity. These are the songs of an autonomy of mind. These are the songs of solving little puzzles, righting little wrongs, and seeking little truths. These are the songs of individual acts of good will, far from the gaze of the State. We’re not going to be embarrassed by our lack of “importance”. We’re going to celebrate it.

nck

Anonymous said...

BB, your legalism is the idea that one can only keep the Sabbath and Feasts by old covenant rules. So, there's freedom in Christ to keep Sunday, or no day, or to keep Christmas and Easter but there's no freedom in Christ to keep the Sabbath and Feasts not by old covenant rules, but by how an individual concludes how they should be kept? The problem with Armstrong is that he wanted to make the rules. We're free now, you can still call us Armstrongists all that you want if it makes you feel better but I'm free to keep the Sabbath and Feasts how the Spirit leads me. Others are free to keep them as the Spirit leads them. And if the Spirit leads you not to keep them fine. We just have to all strive to make sure we're following the right Spirit.

Byker Bob said...

Let's use some more Armstrongism against you, 8:30. "They" also always see the Old Testament and prophecies as applying to themselves today when it's flattering. So, based on that, I believe that Isaiah 1:14 is dual in its prophetic intent, and I believe it applies today to Armstrongism and all the sphincter groups and the messed up ways in which they butcher the oracles, like the sabbath, holy days, tithing, clean meats, etc.

I also hope they all drive electric cars, because when the first spark plug of their gasoline-fueled cars fires a charge, sending the piston down, they've kindled a fire and are breaking the sabbath. Imagine how many times they have sinned on the way to and from services running at 2400 rpm for several hours! unfathomable sin debt!

Legalism? I'm just using the same mirror of discernment with which they brainwashed us to shine a little light on the subject. But, I know! You are probably praying the Pharisee's prayer as you consider my contributions on this topic.

BB

Anonymous said...

2:29pm, no BB, you have proven yourself to be the type that would pray the Pharisee prayer. Your hatred is glaring!

Anonymous said...

Excellent post, Dennis. I find articles and wisdom like this to be of far more real-life use than myths written by ignorant ancient men. Keep up the helpful posts, no matter the silly, unrelated, unhelpful replies you get. Some people prefer cherished ignorance over enlightenment.

Byker Bob said...

LOL @ you, 4:00! You are reacting and behaving according to your programming. I hate no-one. Only a bogus philosophy, and the damage it continues to do in innocent victims' lives whose only crime was that they were seeking enlightenment. Alas, I've even forgiven HWA! As I've said many times, if he makes it into the KOG, and if God humbles him by having him polish the Popes' sandals, I will help him!

BB

Anonymous said...

BB, part of the problem is that the blind hatred that you have and refuse to see is apparently unable to read either. Go back through my posts, I never once asked you to accept the bogus philosophy of "God's one and only true church and his minions", I asked you to consider that some of what was taught was truly biblical, like the Sabbath and Feasts, and that perhaps your hatred for the system just might be blinding you. You claim to have no hatred but as I said, it's glaring in your posts. I asked, which you've neglected to anwser, "So, there's freedom in Christ to keep Sunday, or no day, or to keep Christmas and Easter but there's no freedom in Christ to keep the Sabbath and Feasts not by old covenant rules, but by how an individual concludes how they should be kept?" Why is it that every time someone brings up the Sabbath and Feasts you always bring the acog, Armstrongite accusation? You can call it brainwashing all that you want but I haven't been a member of a church organization for decades. I am anti minister as the WCG taught it. I am fully persuaded that the church is to be locally autonomous as should be the members. Only submitting to God and no man nor his interpretations. As I said, your hatred, which you refuse to admit that you have, is blinding you because the glare is so bright.

jim said...

Anon 1:58 If you want to observe the Sabbath and HD I don't think there is anything inherently wrong in doing so. However, when you talk about "some of the things WCG taught were biblical", I say be careful. Everything they taught that was counter or different than mainstream Christianity was believed to be a salvation issue. So what WCG and the COGs teach about the Sabbath and HD include "if you don't observe these days you aren't a true Christian". Thus, their teaching of the Sabbath and HDs was also false.

Byker Bob said...

I see. In order to be open minded, hate free, and correct in scholarship, one should follow your sterling example.

You’re a lousy salesman, and like most sales people, an irritating selective listener. If I were filled with hatred, as is your premise, you accusing me of hatred would be pouring the proverbial gasoline on the fire. So, in case others in the greater audience actually still do have such hatred, why don’t you quit while you are ahead? Hatred is not the reason that I am non-receptive to what you are selling. If you go back and read my posts, you will see that I did make room for the possibility that in the Kingdom, or in Heaven, when we have perfect specificity as to when times are actually holy, we may well be able to be keeping holy things holy, when we also have the correct knowledge as to how to do so.

Just as WCG atheists have had their non-belief spawned by their Armstrong experiences and not by science, former WCG members who are current sabbath and feast keepers have gotten that element of their beliefs from Armstrongism, like it or not. On the other hand, followers of Perry Stone, who have no knowledge of HWA, and many Messianics, got their knowledge of the oracles from other sources, arguably less contaminated ones.

Part of what was so huge about James’s oration following the Jerusalem Council was the non-requirement of circumcision for gentile Christians. Not being circumcised excluded them from full participation in the temple rituals as prescribed by the law of Moses. Yet, Paul still had the same troubles with the Judaizers who insisted that in order to be authentic Christians, one need first become a fully practicing Jew. The Judaizers of today still insist on ritual over circumcision of the heart.

BB

Anonymous said...

8:03 Just because they taught that Sabbath and Feast keeping are salvation issues doesn't mean that it's wrong to teach that to not keep them is a sin. Jesus came to save sinners. Many have kept Sunday thinking they were keeping the biblical Sabbath. Today those people are laughed at by mainstream. What ever happened to God judges the heart? It wasn't in the WCG, it's not in mainstream, and it's not here amongst several.

Anonymous said...

Bob why are Egyptians going to keep old covenant laws in the future? That's what you're saying and it makes no sense. What anonymous has been trying to get across to you is that it's possible to keep the Sabbath and Feasts outside of the old covenant. I think he's right, your mindset is too legalistic. You think the Sabbath and Feasts can only be kept if they're kept perfectly as commanded by the old covenant. That's why he's calling you legalistic.

The whole world knows that Sunday is the first day of the week, so why is it impossible to keep the Sabbath today without future "perfect specificity" from God? Don't work your usual job on the Sabbath. That's it. Forget the old covenant requirements. Work six days and rest the seventh. That's it, not complicated.

As for the feasts they're not complicated either. The 15th day of the first month in spring is the first day of unleavened bread. Go out and look for the moon. It doesn't have to be exact, remember God looks at the heart.

Your example to anonymous about the priest entering the H of H on the wrong day proves your legalistic tendencies. There is no physical H of H so that doesn't matter.

It's possible to keep the feast days without following anyone elses rules, just do what the spirit leads.

Armstrong complicated matters, and you are complicating matters now. It sure looks like you are the one more concerned about ritual than circumcision of the heart. Anonymous hasn't said once "how" to keep the days, just asking you to consider keeping them because they are biblical. God called them His days. You admitted they will be kept in the future by gentiles. Why can't they be kept today? You are the one complicating things.

Concerned brother

jim said...

I was going partly off this portion of one of your posts:

[I asked, which you've neglected to anwser, "So, there's freedom in Christ to keep Sunday, or no day, or to keep Christmas and Easter but there's no freedom in Christ to keep the Sabbath and Feasts not by old covenant rules, but by how an individual concludes how they should be kept?"]

Is it then freedom in Christ to say it is a sin to not observe the Sabbath? I can see both sides of that whether yes or no. Christ nor the Apostles, nor any before Moses teaches the Sabbath. It's difficult to then reconcile "calling its non-observance a sin" with freedom in Christ which does speak to the heart.

Byker Bob said...

9:54, you just don't get it! What you are calling my legalism is actually the original instructions for the Sinai covenant. WCG claimed to know when these holy days fall today. In other words, they claim to know when holy time, ordained by God, occurs. Turns out they don't. There are too many well documented problems with the calendar. What if I live in Australia and the holy days are upside down from the seasons? What about all of the setbacks and postponements? What about the fact that the F/T is gradually creeping out of phase with harvest season?

As for the sabbath, "the whole world knows" does not constitute proof. There is so much material available on the former lunar sabbaths. Jewish scholars are honest enough to admit that the falling point of today's sabbath does not track directly back to the same "day" of creation week. At some point in history, the day was arbitrarily set.

I believe that when the Old Covenant passed, due to the death of one of the parties involved, (Jesus), God obscured the elements of the Old Covenant, making them impossible to discover and properly observe, or to attempt to bring them into the New Covenant.

My so-called legalism is employed in an effort to demonstrate that if you judge these things employing the standards of legalism which we were taught were set by God as part of being a true Philadelphian in the WCG, you cannot be properly observant by using best guess for the dates of the holy days, or even the sabbath (try keeping it in the land of the midnight sun). Yet you say it is all so simple. When you make a remark such as that, you are speaking more eloquently about the condition of your own mind than you are about the concepts at hand.

But, go ahead. Gut the significance of the holy days by just making best guess regarding the date, don't build your sukkot at the F/T in whatever resort town you keep it in, and assume that you keep everything according to the IDL, and not by Jerusalem Standard Time. Ever wonder why everyone is commanded to go to Jerusalem? That's where holy time is reckoned! And, it doesn't float around the globe. Only God can resolve these issues so that there is understanding and unity, and other than displeasing partial obedience!

BB

Anonymous said...

Jim, I don't want to get into the debate between Bob and anonymous but I do want to question your comment about Christ nor the Apostles teaching the Sabbath. That's all a matter of interpretation as you well know.

Once again I'm going to ask this, I've never gotten an answer thus far. The interpretation by many of Col. 2 is that "the handwriting of requirements that were against us" was either the old covenant or the Ten Commandments specifically. The problem is that Paul was talking to uncircumcised gentiles. Two verses prior he says that they were dead in the uncircumcision of their flesh.

That being the case, how does the abolishing of the old covenant or the Ten Commandments forgive their sins? They were gentiles never under that covenant.

Also, most assume that verses 16 and 17 is Paul telling them to not let anyone judge them for not keeping the Sabbath and Feasts. I have never gotten an intelligent answer about who it was who were judging them.

Most assume it was the same ones from Acts 15, but they were believers of the Pharisaical party. As conservatives Jews today, so too were the Pharisees, the idea of uncircumcised gentiles keeping the Sabbath is/was blasphemous.

In Acts they were demanding circumcision first. They would never demand an uncircumcised gentile to keep the Sabbath without being circumcised first, but we hear nothing in Col. 2 about this. Whoever it was, according to what many think, was judging uncircumcised gentiles for "not" keeping the Sabbath and Feasts. That makes absolutely no sense.

What does make perfect sense is that the gentiles were keeping clean and unclean, they were keeping the Sabbath and Feasts, all while still uncircumcised. That is why they were being judged. That's the only conclusion that makes a bit of sense.

If someone has another logical conclusion I'm willing to listen, but it's got to make sense. The Acts 15 Judaizers judging gentiles for not keeping the Sabbath and Feasts while remaining uncircumcised doesn't make sense.

As I said, interpretation, I see Paul telling them not to let anyone judge them "for" keeping the days, others see it as Paul telling them not to let others judge them for "not" keeping the days. Only one of those scenarios makes sense.

km

Anonymous said...

Holy time? Bullshit! The time isn't Holy, God being there makes it Holy. Where two or three are gathered.

Why are you of all people demanding unity? And who the hell are you to say what displeases God?

You're the one who doesn't get it, and it's willful. You don't want to get it because to you it reeks of HWA. That Bob is your problem.

One day you will be keeping the Sabbath and Feast days. Until then have a great life!

Byker Bob said...

By the way, if your conscience tells you to sloppily keep some of these oracles from the Old Covenant, have at it. Just know that you don’t have compelling evidence to teach others to do so. We really won’t know how to do it or when they fall until Jesus returns. The Bible tells us that whosoever keeps part of the law is required to keep all the law, so hope you are confident in getting it right.

BB

Anonymous said...

"My so-called legalism is employed in an effort to demonstrate that if you judge these things employing the standards of legalism which we were taught were set by God as part of being a true Philadelphian in the WCG"


And yet that was anonymous' point, that one can keep them without employing those legalistic standards.

Concerned brother

Anonymous said...

Hmmm, interesting! That sounds like something Pack, Flurry, Malm or Theil would claim. "You can't keep the Sabbath or Feasts with the proper understanding and unity unless you are following God's government in this organization". There might be some job vacancies for you in their PR dept. lol I kinda remember someone once saying that he honored someones honest attempt at obedience rather than a group of men who were arrogantly proud of their "perfect" letter of the law obedience. At least now I know that if I vacation in the land of the midnight sun my honest attempt to obey won't be accepted by the God that BB believes in. It's got to be perfect else God will strike me down. BB, you learned well in AC!

Anonymous said...

12:23 Who's talking about oracles from the old covenant? I'm not. I'm talking about God's Sabbath and Feasts which were created on the fourth day and the seventh day. You're the one demand the sukkot, demanding travel to Jerusalem, not I. Yes, they were required under the old covenant but I'm not under that covenant, nor will Egypt be when they keep the Feast. You keep proving that you're legalistic and unwilling to obey God unless he spells out the specifics. That's fine, that's why there's a second resurrection for those with a stubborn disbelief. That's the real meaning of the disbelief mentioned in Heb. 3 and 4. A stubborn refusal to obey. I've not once demanded that you obey my version. You admit that the Sabbath and Feasts will be kept in heaven, but you refuse today to keep them unless the specifics are spelled out for you. Are you unable to think for yourself? If your community says that Sunday is the first day, when is the seventh? Even if time has been lost you'd be showing God your willingness to obey. Even if you don't know the correct calendar, if you pick one, or establish the moon yourself and keep the days wouldn't that be showing your willingness to obey? If you want to stubbornly call that sloppily keeping the days, so be it. That just shows that I was correct that you're a legalist. In your mind if you can't keep them perfectly then don't keep them at all, while mocking those who "sloppily" keep them.

nck said...

12:23 BB this all or nothing thing on keeping the law should in my opinion be compared to taxes.

You do not get to choose which part of your tax goes to schools and what for defense. It is all or nothing. The law of God is sovereign and cannot be infringed.

That concept is quite different from a concept that anyone who ever ate a shrimp should perish into eternal damning hell fire.

The legal concept is balance, completeness, sovereignty, justice not damnation by unknowingly transgress time concepts by lighting a bridge at new years in Australia on the sabbath while jerusalem is still sleeping or decorating motel 8 with sukkoth to the annoyance of the night shift manager.

Nck

Byker Bob said...

Dennis often makes remarks about "mere Bible readers". You know, the people incapable of grasping deeper concepts. Silly me! I grabbed the bait and wasted probably a half hour arguing with one.

BTW- You really need to get out more. Discuss this topic with some of your orthodox Jewish friends, or members of the Chabad movement, and discover their learned opinions regarding your diet version of the sabbath and dishwater edition of the holy days. If your Apostle were alive today, it is a certainty that even he would identify you as Laodicean. But, I guess I'm now the legalist for taking the precision of the Torah, and applying it to your cheap substitutes for the level of observance actually prescribed by the Law of Moses. We'll have precision in heaven following the restitution of all things, but it is not possible to achieve now. In the meantime, different men, collectors of people, will be providing their versions of "obeying God" to enslave and control as many individuals as they possibly can. These mini-Torquemadas all invoke "You refuse to obey God" as their low grade, low mentality intimidation.

Peace Out!

BB

Anonymous said...

The questions BB poses about various uncertainties relating to the divinely ordained instructions about Sabbaths, holy days, etc. which HWA and his WCG conveyed as if it were all knowable, definitive and irrefutable for "so said Herbert" I have to be honest and confess that I've had similar doubts myself. I still do! Heck I'm human! So I'm not going to sit here and act like I know everything there is to know about these subjects and lecture someone else dogmatically about it all as if l’m right and everyone else is wrong. I've lived that life and believe me I know how utterly foolish it is especially since a lot that still passes for "truth" amongst Armstrongists I have proven for myself to be scripturally and/or historically false.

For me, a question I have mulled over for a long time now concerns the prophecy of Zechariah 14 and relates to our era and although I have pushed it to the back of my mind it sometimes comes to the fore and I still wonder. My main concern is God’s focus was on Jerusalem and His Temple and it was from there that the holy days were set and observed by His people as they will be once more in the Messianic era (Isaiah 2:3; Micah 4:2; Zechariah 14:16-17). But, now with the Temple having been destroyed for almost 2 millennia now perhaps we are in a dispensation similar to that of Noah and Abraham—à la the pre-Old Covenant era—so certain aspects of the covenant, which will be reinstated with Christ’s rule, are at present on suspension and in God’s eyes unimportant to a Christian’s salvation.

For instance, look at 76 things banned by God’s law in Leviticus alone. Can any Christian—Catholic, Protestant, Armstrongist, Messianic, etc.—affirm they’ve never committed any of these sins in thought, word or deed? I highly doubt it! So perhaps that individual or group of people who keeps on smacking BB down for having a different opinion to them and is honest enough to concede there remain questions that still haven't been satisfactorily answered for him just calm your farm. God will be his Judge, your Judge and my Judge—and thankfully He is superabundant in mercy and has the answers to all our unanswered questions!

”A foolish man thinks he knows everything. A wise man knows he doesn’t!”

nck said...

11:11

To me it seems the armstrongite solution was always like water flowing to the simplest solution.

There is no temple so one cannot do anything related to that temple.

One is not in Jerusalem so one adheres to local definition of time.

A person does not know about the Holy Days. So she can serve us dinner in between doubke services and coffee before AND said person can be recompensed through 2nd tithe too.

Etc etc etc

Nck

Byker Bob said...

The really funny thing, 11:11, is that they had either gotten the date wrong for Pentecost for decades, or have it wrong now! Or both!

Why is that important? It is arguably the most important day of the year for Christians! The day on which the Holy Spirit descended and began indwelling humans! I find it both ironic and symbolic that of all the calendar errors they could have possibly made, it had to be that day. One can draw one’s own conclusions, but to me that mistake was a huge, huge red flag, a bad indicator of the type of church with which we were involved. When you think about it, it’s even a worse mistake than British Israelism, and all of the false prophecies which resulted from that. Yet, there had been people who were put out of the church for insisting that Pentecost should be on Sunday!

BB

Anonymous said...

11:11 Wow, just where did I smack BB down? All I did was ask him to consider that some things that WCG taught may have been partially correct. It's BB who kept "smacking" me down, accusing me of "sloppily" obeying God, and in his last post called HWA "my Apostle" when I clearly stated that he was wrong. It's hilarious his attempts at justification. Grant it, he's a good writer, and he's blinded people like you to his way, but the fact is his last post at 5:26 is his ad hominem attempt to argue against the man rather than the topic. You're doing the same. Either Zech. 14 is an accurate prophecy or else the bible is garbage. Either Is. 66 is accurate prophecy or else the bible is garbage. BB's Sabbath arguments are worthless. Will the earth still be a globe when Is. 66 is fulfilled? If so, the Sabbath can be kept on a globe earth. Will the whole world go to Jerusalem when Zech. 14 is fulfilled or just representatives from each nation? Will those not in Jerusalem not keep the Feasts because they're not in Jerusalem? These questions can be labeled as coming from someone who is a mere "bible reader" if BB wants to continue his ad hominem attacks, but the truth is that comment from Dennis was the same fallacy. To Dennis, unless one is educated in the bible his understanding is worthless. It seems BB has fallen for that in his fallacious argumentation, not realizing that he doesn't have a theology degree either. BB is a mere bible reader too, but in his attack against the man, me, his hopes are that you the reader don't see that fact. His whole purpose of that last post was to attempt to belittle me. That's how he is I guess, he wants to appear great, he's braggadocious in all his posts (over $10,000 in tools in my truck) big shit, who cares. He's an old man trying to reclaim his glory days that he lost to Armstrong. He's the foolish man in your last quote, as are you if you've fallen for his shit.

Anonymous said...

11:11pm you do realize that your link comes from a pro homosexual site don't you?

Anonymous said...

Hmmm, a dispensation similar to that of Abraham? When did God tell Abraham that he'd have a son? Gen 18:14 - Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son. Only us mere "bible readers" have a clue what is being said here since those with a degree, those who translated it, hid the meaning. The "time of life" is in the spring, when everything is coming back to life. The phrase "at the time appointed" is the Hebrew word mowed, or translated elsewhere as feast.
When is the spring mowed? Passover and Unleavened Bread.
Now of course you're all going to deny any significance to this, that's how you typically do things, just put the blinder on. But here is clear evidence that Abraham knew of God's mowed. Now go back to your slumbering and sleeping!

Anonymous said...

I doubt Gary will let this through but I found a pic of BB.

https://vanishingpointbikes.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/scooterman.jpeg

Anonymous said...

11:11pm rather than trying to make your own conclusions about how to worship God and where why not let Jesus answer it for you.

John 4:20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”
21Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Looks like a Motel 6 in Myrtle Beach is just fine. I've never claimed that I'm following the old covenant rules regarding the Feasts. That's how legalistic view it.

Anonymous said...

Hi dennis I know i'm late coming to this thread,
you said "The point will be missed. You watch lol."
you were so right, please don't stop posting, I love
reading what you say, this was one of the best posts
from you as some have already said. Please keep it up
It makes thinking people start to check what they believe
and hopefully reflect on what you say.
toby

Byker Bob said...

You are funny, 4:51! The fact is, since I left Armstrongism in 1975, unlike some, I actually got to have four decades of glory days. I wish all could have experienced that, but the effects were different for each individual. And, by the way, $10,000 in tools and parts is nothing for a technician these days. The Ricoh, Konica, and Xerox techs carry double and triple that, and they drive new SUV’s, not a 2010 sedan.

You tipped your hand and made it clear that you are a Bible inerrantist, and a literalist. I am not. I don’t buy into the black and white 100% accurate or total garbage line of thought. Many of the points made by textual critics are valid, as are the observations of linguistics experts who are familiar with the nuances of the ancient languages. And then, there is the history of the canonization process, and the back stories pertaining to King James’ translation committee. You cannot blame Dennis for my knowledge of these, as you attempted to do. In fact, when Dennis first burst on the scene, I thought he was a pretty shallow reader. I have always read widely, but Dennis and I reach completely different conclusions.

I am not a legalist. I turn around the legalism, the literalism, and the logic of Armstrongism and use it against its adherents to demonstrate their own lack of depth in knowledge and shallowness in obedience, their preoccupation with the physical rituals rather than with the deeper spiritual principles, the unChristlike inhumanity this causes, and the leaps inherent in applying every detail of every prophecy literally to themselves and this particular Kodak snapshot of the world in time. If, as a result, you actually see me as the legalist, it demonstrates that my technique has been effective.

The prophecies you have cited are about a time when all of the mysteries have been resolved and clarified, a time when it is no longer necessary to guess, or to deal in sloppiness. Or for that matter, to just “pick one”, teach it, and exploit people using something that nobody can really know as being right. In the meantime, we have measurable things that we can get right: the two great commandments (love for God, and love for man) the Golden Rule, and basic Noahchide law as a firm and solid basis for the ways on which to base our lives and relationships.

BB

nck said...

Dennis posting resembles some of Michelangelos ideas for making his David in Florence.

No poster advertising a movie depicts the end and conclusion of the movie. No one wants to know.

Yet every David before the Renaissance (rebirth) had been depicted as the conquering David. The David who slew Goliath.

Michelangelos David however is depicted before the battle takes place. Confident, ready, bold, awaiting the right moment to move and change the odds in his favor.

I too wish Dennis well at the parts of the journey where we may not converge. Even if that means 'all the time' or "when we are conducting our real lives away from the virtual crowd."

Regrets I have a few, but I did it my way.

Nck

Anonymous said...

12:08 At least you're coming across a little more mellow this time, but you're still making incorrect observations. I'm neither an inerrantist nor a literalist. Is it really impossible to accept a prophecy as written without being labeled as such? Obviously you don't understand why I call you a legalist. It's not the typical reason. I know that you don't believe in keeping old covenant law, I don't either. The old covenant ended with Christ. I call you a legalist because you think that in order to keep the Sabbath and Feasts one must do so by old covenant rules. That's where you're a legalist. You think it's impossible to keep the Sabbath and kindle a fire (starting a car), you think it's impossible to keep the Feasts without going to Jerusalem. As I said, I don't follow old covenant rules, I'm not under the old covenant. The Sabbath existed before Ex. 16. The fact that it's not commanded prior to that proves nothing. Jesus said it was made for man. It was made on the seventh day when God rested. If you need a literal written command in Gen. 3 before you'll ease up on your stubbornness then show me where the command against murder is written! Where is the command to give an offering of the herd and not the field? Genesis was not intended to be a book listing laws and commands. You like to keep blabbing about Noahchide laws. Was murder acceptable prior to the flood? The Noahchide laws didn't exist prior to the flood if you are going to take everything so dogmatically concrete. As I asked earlier, what's so wrong about guessing? The world says Sunday is the first day so we keep Friday sunset to Saturday sunset as the Sabbath. The Jews using Hillel's calendar set a calendar, I use that. Why is that so wrong in your mind? Just because someone else chooses to use the Karaite calendar doesn't make them wrong in my mind, (they're sincerely trying to obey God) does it yours? Just because someone keeps a lunar Sabbath doesn't make them wrong in my mind, does it yours? If so, you're the one with the legalism problem, whether you keep the law or not, it's still legalism. I have never told you what day or days to keep, I've only asked you to consider that there might have been some truth in the WCG even though it was corrupted. Yes Bob you are a legalistic if you think the only way to obey God is through precision, resolve and clarity. You leave out the heart. You're as big a Pharisee as they were and you're just as blind. Sad!

Anonymous said...

12:08 love for man but not an acog member or anyone else who keeps the Sabbath or Feasts is your philosophy I guess.

Anonymous said...

legalist not legalistic, autocorrect is not always correct.

Byker Bob said...

I’ve come to the conclusion that you guys or guy are just totally confused. When someone makes the statement that several Old Testament prophecies are either true or the Bible is garbage, that is about as literalist and inerrantist, and possibly even as legalist as you can get. It doesn’t even display correct understanding of what prophecy is in the first place! And, to go from that to stating that guessing about when the holy days are to be kept is commendible (rather than garbage) is inconsistent to say the least. If these laws concerning the holy days are to be kept, they are to be kept as commanded. Would you guess about committing a murder, and say it’s ok as long as your heart was right while committing it because you are in the new covenant???

The Bible has been edited and updated occasionally as it has been compiled. The doublets in Chronicles and Kings remain as two examples of these edits. One obvious time of editing fell during the Babylonian captivity, and another during the intertestamental era of the Maccabees, which was also the era of helenization and of the Hasmonean kings. In one of the edits, the law of Moses was backwritten by the scribes into Creation Week, depicting God as resting for a literal 24 hour period. This is what has distorted the creation narrative, making it appear that all of the time-consuming processes which were interdependent actually took place in sequence in literal 24 hour periods, even the events which supposedly took place prior to there being a sun and moon which have always been used as the time keepers for mankind. It’s why geologists, and paleontologists laugh uproariously at the creation narrative.

Cain slew Abel. Murder existed before the time of Noah. However, cite me scripture which demonstrates any human keeping the sabbath before the law of Moses and the example of the manna. Melchizedek was uncircumcised, and inobservant of the sabbath. Ditto with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and all of the other men listed as being pleasing to God. Where are we told that Noah kept the sabbath? Certainly we are told that in the old Plain Truth, but not in the Bible. The Israelites had to be taught when the sabbath even was through the example of the manna.

I’m sorry, but if the Christians of Acts 2 had gotten the day for Pentecost wrong, they would have missed out on receiving the Holy Spirit, whether they had a good attitude or not!!! HWA claimed to be a restorer of truths, as revealed to him by God. Yet, he found himself needing to change from a Monday Pentecost to Sunday. I suppose you think me legalistic for noting that?

I have sometimes celebrated Cinqo de Mayo with my Mexican-American friends. I’m flexible culturally, kind of a global citizen. There are various commemorations all of them special in their own ways. Frankly, when someone introduces themselves to me as being Jewish, I respond by telling them that I was raised as a Messianic Jew, keeping the sabbath, holy days, and only eating clean meats. If I met another person who had become aware of these holy days through the teachings of HWA, I would need to run from the area as quickly as possible, and at top speed. I would know in advance that their minds are so contaminated by all of the evils of Armstrongism, even if they were so-called “independents”. That’s been burned, possibly until the Kingdom when Jesus re-educates us all and sets things right. You doubt me? There is no cleanup going on in any of the ACOGs today. They just use the same old recruitment plan of backing ungrounded people into a corner using the sabbath, holydays, clean meats, and especially tithing, and then take over their entire lives with their foul, tyrannical “church government”. Rot your brain, rot your kidneys, rot your heart! Kook-a-rot-cha!

BB

nck said...

Who was the guy who said divorce is ALWAYS wrong, but is to be allowed "because of the hardness of our hearts." Likewise a Christian should NEVER kill and ALWAYS be outside the military. Yet I consider the military one of the nobler professions and necessary as long as we have human kingdoms, some centurion amazed the first Christians" since they had not seen faith as the centurion faith (a faith that might have been a result of the exemplary leadership and example of other military leaders in battle).

Yet killing is the PRIMARY sin against God and I would not hesitate to defend my kin ANYWAY possible if under attack in say El Paso or thank a police officer for doing so.

I'm not sure if BB understands absolute legal concepts VS the hardness of our hearts. Does he understand why peers are to decide in a jury. And why OJ was to be set free even if he slaughtered his wife of which I am sure. If true love can exist in the Jewish neighborhood where he grew up.

And yes that God does the demand the death penalty for just the second I lusted after my neighbor sunbathing and thought it unnecessary to separate the plastic from my other waste and be a b unwise steward of the earth. It is sin and death will follow. Yet God provided a solution to attone since through observing and learning only God observed that since I am man and dust I am not capable of being pure.

God has decided to not be All Powerful but delegate true power to man by allowing choice and therefore the inescapable sin as Paul put it. Sin is a necessary and inescapable concept both for God and man as long as God is not going to raise up stones for sons and implant them with algorythm that are designed to produce nothing but purity. Although God threatened that he could do that and raise algorythmitic purity stones for sons, he would never do that since it would be the ultimate failure to do so for a creative dynamic personality.

Nck

Nck

Byker Bob said...

Just about the dumbest Armstrongite sabbath story I ever heard appeared on one of the old forums about 15 years ago. A young lady slipped and had a one nighter. Yep, she became pregnant. So, after agonizing over what to do, she scheduled an abortion. Shortly before the abortion, she felt guilty about having it on the sabbath, so she rescheduled it for a weekday.

BB

Anonymous said...

looks like a couple of the anonymi dont realize that if you mix the new covenant with the old covenant it contaminates both. they are incompatible. its kind of like trying to harmonize the gospels, which is another impossible thing

Anonymous said...

BB 1:38 AM re Pentecost
So true! Even now we've got Christians of both the Western and Eastern branches observing "Pentecost" counting inclusively from Easter Sunday, but, following the Gregorian or Julian calendars respectively.
Then there are Christians of the Armstrongist branch who observe "Pentecost" counting inclusively (or exclusively) from Sunday (or Monday) that falls during the Feast of Unleavened Bread (or even the Sunday or Monday AFTER the weekly Sabbath that falls during the FUB), and either follow the Jewish calendar or the new moon as sighted locally or in Israel.
Then there are Christians who observe "Pentecost" on a fixed date in the Jewish calendar on Sivan 6 following Judaism.
If one thinks we're not in "Babylon" surely this proves otherwise! SMH!

4:51: "...Either Zech. 14 is an accurate prophecy or else the bible is garbage. Either Is. 66 is accurate prophecy or else the bible is garbage..."
I believe the Bible from Genesis to Revelation is the true Word of God and all of the prophecies written therein shall be fulfilled in accordance with His sovereign will irrespective of how you, me, HWA, or anyone else might interpret or misinterpret them!

4:54: "11:11pm you do realize that your link comes from a pro homosexual site don't you?"
So if a site is "pro homosexual" and publishes a post highlighting 76 prohibitions from Leviticus that is accurate and true does this automatically invalidate and negate the post? Isn't that an ad hominem fallacy?

5:06: "...The 'time of life' is in the spring, when everything is coming back to life. The phrase 'at the time appointed' is the Hebrew word mowed, or translated elsewhere as feast. When is the spring mowed? Passover and Unleavened Bread...here is clear evidence that Abraham knew of God's mowed."
I'm aware of the various discoveries made by Bible scholars that significant events in the Old Testament appear to have occurred at the time of a holy day or season, and therefore, it is concluded God works with His people at ordained times on the sacred calendar. But, just because God might have done so prior to His ordination of Moses and the Israelite exodus from Egypt and His revelation of the weekly and annual Sabbaths to Israel doesn't necessarily mean those people (e.g. Abel, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, etc.) knew of, and were observing, those same holy days as Jews (or Armstrongist Christians) do today.

6:43 AM: "...Looks like a Motel 6 in Myrtle Beach is just fine. I've never claimed that I'm following the old covenant rules regarding the Feasts. That's how legalistic view it."
I don't need to go to a feast site where ACOGs claim "God has placed His name" to observe His holy days. Like Paul and the Diaspora today I can celebrate His holy days and festivals wherever I so choose be it at home, interstate or overseas.

nck said...

9:32

Anything we should do with the Jews now?

Or just let them be and withdraw billions of support and the Army from the entire Middle East as we have No strategic interests there whatsoever.

A shale man inquires.

Nck

"contamination" is the word that triggered my sarcasm

nck said...

Laws or a legal system are a Method toward governance, democracy or liberty.

A culture is a prerequisite for the laws to function. That's why to some who were raised in different culture instead of "masculine" fear and power culture some of the posters experiences in wcg sound like an alien experience.

WCG was to young a church for ANY member to have ever shed their past completely. That's why Dennis's leadership was mild and moderate and others complain about racist idiots as ministers. No surprise these are usually the 1950 US ministry.

As some have proven by HWA 1939 musings on governance one cannot find more enlightened or "democratic" writings in the history of Christianity since they stem from before the USA turned into an empire.

Nck

Anonymous said...

"I don't need to go to a feast site where ACOGs claim "God has placed His name" to observe His holy days."


I never said that you did! In fact, as I recall I quoted Jesus "where two or three are gathered". I'm not a member of any acog group, nor do I believe they have the authority to place God's name anywhere, so I'm wondering where that comment came from.

Anonymous said...

9:32pm it looks like you haven't got a clue about the purpose of the covenants.

Anonymous said...

nck, 9:32 has no clue when it comes to the covenants. The old covenant was "added" because of transgressions. The new covenant was given to forgive transgressions. Transgressions being the key to understanding the covenants.

Anonymous said...

"But, just because God might have done so prior to His ordination of Moses and the Israelite exodus from Egypt and His revelation of the weekly and annual Sabbaths to Israel doesn't necessarily mean those people (e.g. Abel, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, etc.) knew of, and were observing, those same holy days as Jews (or Armstrongist Christians) do today."

First, I never said they were observing the holy days as Jews or Armstrongists do today. There were no motel 6's at that time. 😉 (if you missed it that goes back to BB sarcastically mentioning motel 6) But they had to have known about them or else God telling Abraham when he'd return makes no sense. I don't recall reading Abraham questioning, "When is the mowed at the time of life?". Interesting how Lot prepared matzo for the two angels too. Or when God told Abraham to go sacrifice Isaac. Once told, they left, they saw the mountain three days journey away. Hmmm. Could the day that God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac have been the tenth day of the first month? Then they journeyed and the 14th day possibly being the day that Abraham placed Isaac on the altar? Who knows? But aren't we told to search out things in the bible? Or should we demand everything be spelled out perfectly, resolved, and clear before we'll accept them? You're right, we're in Babylon, so what are we supposed to do? Go hide our heads in the sand until we're told from on high what God wants? Or search the scriptures and do what we're individually convicted of? If I go to Myrtle Beach for the Feast and stay in a Motel 6 (not likely) who are you or BB or anyone else to say my feeble attempt at obedience is not pleasing to God? I don't believe any group has the authority to place God's name there or anywhere, but if I and a few others agree to go there and meet for the feast didn't Jesus say he'd be there amongst us? You all are so hung up on Armstrong and the long dead WCG you automatically assume that if I keep the feasts I'm doing it as Armstrong commanded. Or you're so old covenant legalistic that you think it impossible to keep the feasts without building a sukkot exactly as prescribed in the old covenant. You read things into posts that aren't there such as the fact that I never said you had to keep the feasts the way acogs or Armstrong commanded. Nor did I say that acogs place God's name on any site. If you want to make the general statement that you don't have to follow acog rules fine, but not at the expense of making it sound like I'm requiring feast keeping by Armstrong rules. Put a tent up in your backyard, I don't care. Stay in your house, I don't care. Don't keep them at all, I don't care.

nck said...

5:19

Yeah. I myself get entangled by trying to explain legal philosophy in layman's terms.

Anyway. Some nutcases assert that acog's have started celebrating pagan days. By their "legalistic" reasoning, of which they stand accused here, both lcg and ucg Australia and New Zealand should on the 25th of July have celebrated their annual winter solstice party.

I am not in the business of defending religious dogma but when people speak of covenants or contracts I may be triggered by unsound legal reasoning or even the disgusting habit of interpretation. :-)

Nck

Byker Bob said...

I don't know that we're living in Babylon, although I can see how some would embrace that metaphor as they watched the figurative tongue of their belief system become divided and confused. Others invoke Laodicea, which is of course harsher, and prompts judgmentalism and finger-pointing amongst the 600+ splinter groups.

To me, a religious scam has simply been disrupted. Personally, I am very happy that it was. I feel compassion for the psychological damage this has caused in some sincere peoples' lives, but then again, Armstrongism has a long history of causing such damage. It would seem that as a religion, it has been equally unfair to everyone involved, in that all have been damaged; persons like myself while I was a part of it, and persons such as some of the commenters above in the aftermath of it all coming down. The angst has touched all of us. In retrospect, it would be so much better if the scam had never existed in the first place.

BB

nck said...

1:11

In my opinion apocalyptic description of Babylon contains an economic trading system that is globally interconnected.

When in October 2008 I noticed from the heart of darkness (City of London) that sophisticated people in London had lost all hope for the world and called their wives to go to the countryside and get their weapons, Dubai went completely and utterly broke overnight and so forth and so forth I thanked God for the dark "Nimrod" from "the new Rome" who managed to keep all heads cool and saved the world as we now it from Jackson Hole November 2008.

Everything we experience today is completely fake and supported by nothing. To me that constitutes babylon. Do I fear it? No, I am a proud Cold War survivor. One cannot protect against any storm only set sails like all have done that came before us.

Of course I will die within 8 days after internet is taken from me. :-)

I mean. How did people get their food before internet...... Impossible.

My investment advice. Learn how to garden and save a little since man is resourceful in maintaining leaking ships. The King of Tyre has leaking ships bwahaha. Just a couple of days and I'm off to the greatest portcolony of Tyre and all of you will enter a time of rest from my musings.

Nck

Byker Bob said...

The thing is, nck, the trading system based on nothing can only survive if it is based on global cooperation. And yet we have stupid know-nothing anusses attempting to promote a resurgence of nationalism. That is a scary recipe for disaster. We cannot allow continuance further down that road. It is my fervent hope that the recent bond inversion stimulates a political correction!

BB

nck said...

BB

Yes. "The invisible hand of politics". The correcting mechanism. The swing of the pendulum.

I wonder however how much control has remained for (just) politicians over "the unseen hand of economics and trade".

Has it gone beyond control.

Central bankers have limited mandate. Perhaps soon we'll pay for having savings at all.

As I said one need not fear ever and never. Just adjust sails and see. I'm not a prepper but an observer and enjoyer.

Nck

nck said...

BTW BB

that is a most excellent summary of the symbiosis that is required between "the unseen hand (of international trade) And "the way of give".

The two cannot be separate.

That's why you hear a current politician incite the masses "that they are not benefitting and are being taken advantage off (partly true). The danger does not lie in the truth but in the fact that he/they are not counting the blessings and tribute they would otherwise not have had. The reason they do not see this is a distribution problem which is presented as socialism by people who have never understood the dangers of rampant corruption of a failing wealth distribution system.

Ford at least understood that the people buying his product needed to be able to acquire the quality product. Too many don't care today about the dental health of the Appalachian people or whatever.

Mr E Babble On convinced me about the wealth destruction of the wars between the Italian city states. I favor Italy as a whole.

In terms of worlds production capacity steel prizes should be 10 percent of what they are. In the eighties Europe reduced its life stock. Otherwise there would have been "free milk, cheese and butter" for two continents in terms of capacity.

But no "Homey don't play that game."

Nck

Anonymous said...

11:53/5:11
I'm afraid you mistook my reply to 6:43 as a reply to yourself🤦‍♂️

6:06
My personal preference is the KISS principle. So I follow the divine instructions to not add to or take from His instructions (Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32; Revelation 22:18). Regarding holy days as I understand it if you look into the various Christian organizations that observe the annual feasts of the Bible you'll often find a connection with HWA or someone who was associated with him, his teachings or his RCG/WCG. So it's not incorrect to insinuate the possibility, even probability, that HWA was the source of the man-made traditions that are common among Sabbatarian Christian groups to gather together at sponsored sites across America or the world to celebrate the FOT for 8 days as an annual pilgrimage holiday. And if he wasn't the original source then he definitely popularized it. But, what irks me, is the ministerial leadership of these groups use covert, if not overt, psychological tactics to compel their members to attend these conventions as if God Himself commanded such when He hasn’t! So these Armstrongist Christians keep these annual holy days thinking they’re obeying God’s commandments when, in truth, they’re keeping them according to the man-made traditions set by HWA not God! Browsing through the UCG “Festival Planning Brochure” as an example I’ve noted references like, “The primary purpose of the Feast is to appear before God at this appointed time at the place where He has placed His name” or “We sincerely seek and appreciate your earnest prayers for God’s blessing…on all the Feasts around the world where God has chosen to place His name” (2019 edition, pages 21, 22) besides the typical scriptural references to second tithes (e.g. Deuteronomy 14:23 page 3). I’m not alone in my criticism of such HWA-made traditions (see Richard Nickels Bible Study and Dan White’s Bible Study). Further, these Christian authors rightly point out God ordained 3 annual pilgrim feasts not 1 as HWA and his followers teach. For me, His annual holy days should be observed similar to the early Christians and the Diaspora, i.e., in local congregations, and if people want to go to another congregation in the same city or another state or another country to celebrate them or not then let them do what they want to do. But, please don’t compel them to go to some far away convention under the guise that this is where “God has placed His name” for them to “appear before Him” to spend His “tithes,” when He hasn’t commanded any such thing! Finally, please don’t mistake my criticism of these ACOGs traditional practices as criticism of your choice as I’m not criticizing you personally. Like you said: “Put a tent up in your backyard, I don't care. Stay in your house, I don't care. Don't keep them at all, I don't care.” ;-)

Anonymous said...

In 2015, the median global net worth was only $3,210, if your net worth is above that you're richer than half the world. If your net worth is over $68,800 you're richer than 90% of the world. The median (half own more half own less) net worth in the U.S. is $81,000. Compare $81,000 to $3,210. A "fair" global economy means the average U.S. citizen's wealth will have to drop drastically. Do you really want that? Are you willing to give that much up to make everything "fair"? https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-richest-people-in-the-world-20160121-story.html
Is it greedy on my part to want to keep America great? The liberal rhetoric is bullshit once one really thinks through the facts. Hate Trump all that you want, conservatives want equity among everyone but not at the expense of those who already have attained. Liberal Socialist leaders want equity as long as they remain among the elite. The U.S. isn't even the richest in the world when net worth is the subject. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/managing-wealth/112916/richest-and-poorest-countries-capita-2016.asp It's all propaganda folks and most of you are buying into it!

Anonymous said...

2:02, I am the one who posted in all the time slots that you mention. 11:53, 5:11, 6:06 and yes, 6:43 too. Which is why your assumptions about what I was saying in my 6:43 post was inaccurate, which is why I wrote the 11:53 and 5:11 posts. I agree 100% with your disdain of the "clergy" class of Armstrong telling people that going to their sites is going to where God has placed his name. Which is why I never said that one had to, no, not even n my 6:43 post. I mentioned Motel 6 because you know who sarcastically brought it up about going to resorts for the feast. I enjoy going to resorts/vacation locations for the feast, I went to England last year with family. I see nothing wrong with the tradition as long as everyone knows that's all it is, tradition of one man, HWA. I got on to one independant feast site recently because in their web advertisements they quoted Lev. 23 and said God commands us to do this and we do. I told them God commanded Israel in
Lev. 23 not us. I will be going there for the feast but not because Lev. 23 commands me, I'm going because that's where I choose to vacation. I'm not sure how many days I'll attend services, maybe just first day, Sabbath, and eighth day, mostly because those are the days that God commanded Israel to assemble, while he didn't command me, those days are his mowed, his appointments, so it seems good to me to meet on those days. If others choose not to I have no problem with their choice.

Anonymous said...

What a discussion Dennis has spawned! I bet we'll have over100 comments before this is over.