Friday, December 27, 2019

“Watch and pray always that you be accounted worthy to escape all these things and stand before the son of man”



A comment from the previous post that deserves its own space:


For me, this topic post was a timely topic post. A previous post topic entitled “Why the Church” got me thinking and didn’t have time to post questions that came to my mind before other subsequent topics moved it into archive.
The Radio/Worldwide Church of God once had a booklet entitled “There Is A Way of Escape”. One of the hooks that drew people into the Church was the promise to escape the Great Tribulation which the booklet explained. “Watch and pray always that you be accounted worthy to escape all these things and stand before the son of man” Luke 21:36. Classic Armstrongism taught the Great Tribulation occurring in the first week of January, 1972 (end of second 19 year time cycle) with the German attack on America. The Philadelphians are taken to a Place of Safety and the remaining “Lukewarm” Church members left were the Laodicean Church era going through the Great Tribulation. Classic Armstrongism taught half the Church would be taken to Petra Place of Safety and the other half would be tried in the Great Tribulation (another Lake of Fire type fear threat). “Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your LORD will come. Matthew 24:40-42
So the question that arose in my mind when I read “Why the Church” post was how do the splinters and HWA wannabes teach Matthew 24:40-42 today? If each splinter and HWA wannabee teaches that their own splinter (and their splinter alone) are the Philadelphian era remnant and all the other Splinters are the Laodiceans in the Laodicean era, then how does the math work for the fulfillment of Matt 24:40-42 the way that classic Armstrongism always taught; i.e. half the Church taken to place of Safety and the other half remaining to go through the great Tribulation tried by fire?  
If “the elect” have been spread among all the splinters, and each is claiming that they are the Philadelphian remnant, then the numbers don’t work 50%/50%. Even if they still taught classic Armstrongism; i.e. that within their own splinter group, 50% will be taken to a Place of Safety while 50% are left behind to face the Great Tribulation with all the other Laodiceans in the other Splinters, the math still doesn’t work overall to fulfill Matt. 24:40-42, thus the question I posed.
If the Armstrong Churches of God are as many as 50,000 people today consisting of two types of people: 1) Philadelphian remnant in the Laodicean era; and 2) Laodiceans in the Laodicean era, then there is no one Splinter Group that is large enough for 25,000 Philadelphians (50%) worthy to escape all these things (Luke 21:36). Which means ALL of the HWA wannabees have to acknowledge that there are Philadelphians in other Splinter groups for the math to work. BUT WAIT, that would mean that, consistent with classic Armstrongism, we are still in the Philadelphian era and the two eras co-exist together. 
OH, BUT WAIT! It gets even better – Herbert Armstrong admitted that the dead Sardis era – the Church of God, Seventh Day – was also God’s true Church too, just doing a dead work!!! So do their membership numbers get included in the Place of Safety Matthew 24:40-42 prophecy that classic Armstrongism always taught that half the Church would be taken, and the other half left to go through the Great Tribulation? That would imply there are Philadelphians and Laodiceans in the Sardis era remnant.
Now that we are out of it, isn’t Armstrongism fun?  
Maybe the Doctor from the degree mill “Almost arrested for Sabbath keeping, doubly blessed” Thiel can prophesy an answer to my simple naïve question.
Richard


36 comments:

Anonymous said...


Not every so-called Church of God is really a true Church of God. Most are satanic imposter cults. Not every leader is God's man. Most are Satan's false leaders.


SATAN'S FUCKING HYPOCRITE

Garner Ted Armstrong: Spoiled brat. Came around for the money and the sex. Finally had to be put out of the WCG by his own father HWA.


SATAN'S APOSTATES

Joseph W. Tkach, Sr.: Died exactly forty weeks after rejecting all the laws of God in a December 17, 1994 sermon.

Joseph Tkach, Jr.: Sunday-keeping guy who orchestrated the Great Apostasy of 1995 but who still wants you to tithe to him.


SATAN'S COMPETITIVE TYPE

Roderick C. Meredith: Came up with “doctrinal upgrade” nonsense to compete against HWA.


SATAN'S GOON

Victor Kubik: Former Tkach goon who was just following orders from the apostates. Now his own goon.


SATAN'S BLIND GUIDE

David Hulme: Lacked vision. Any ditch will do.


SATAN'S FALSE PROPHETS

Satan's REALLY SATANIC false prophets

Gerald R. Flurry: Plagiarist. Gospel perverter. Identity thief. Family wrecker. The worst evil around since the apostasy.

David C. Pack: Endless yelling and spitting, lying and stealing. A “common” thief who wants it ALL.

Satan's really stupid false prophets

Ronald E. Weinland: Sick clown writing fiction.

Robert J. Thiel: Fooled by demons and pagans.


SATAN'S REBELS AND USELESS IDIOTS

Norman S. Edwards: Likes to cause DIVISION.

James D. Malm: Likes to cause CONFUSION.

Anonymous said...

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

in light of current events in our nation, it is even sweeter irony that not only is the above Scripture being fulfilled at large, but even here on this blog...

c f ben yochanan
please stop censoring me

Tonto said...

Hey!-- If the "19 year time cycle thingy" still exists, then the year 2020 will be one of those!

1972 plus 19 years, = 1991 , plus 19 more years = 2020!

Prepare to FLEE! LOL! ;-)

Anonymous said...

I think you'll find HWA has all the C.O.G.7th-day copping the G.Trib(tough break)

Byker Bob said...

Isn't it interesting that all of Armstrongism is now doing a "dead work". It's a nostalgia act whose time has long since passed. But, unlike other nostalgia acts, they haven't kept up with the times. Current trends in nostalgia involve huge tours projecting a hologram on stage accompanied by actual live musicians and background singers. Like Elvis. One of the ACOGs should put some bucks into their recruitment presentations. They need to develop holograms of HWA, and GTA and put on huge campaigns. Gerald Flurry could do a live sermonette, followed by special music by his HWA College Chorale. And then, a hologram of HWA could do the sermon on the two trees. (oops! yawn) Amonst the two "preservationists", Flurry would be the better to pull this off, because David Pack would want to do the sermon and only allow HWA's hologram to do the sermonette.

Mark Armstrong already uses "Dead Ted" for his telecasts. It'd be a simple upgrade to employ a hologram instead.

BB

TLA said...

Tonto - you miss the significance of the next time cycle - we will all be seeing clearly - 20/20.

Anonymous said...

12:37 PM
So what does that make HWA seeing he was the Elmer Fudd-looking little oaf with a stupid haircut and dumb look on his face that started it all?!

Anonymous said...

Tonto
Try 1776. the declaration of independence, add the Fibonacci number 233, giving 2008, the year Obama was elected. This date represents the end of Gods promise to Abraham. So start counting from this date.

Anonymous said...

1972+19=1991
1991+19=2010
2010+19=2029

Anonymous said...

All of this is more meaningful and makes more sense when your high.

Anonymous said...

Question asked was: "...how do the splinters and HWA wannabes teach Matthew 24:40-42 today?..."

There could be all sorts of speculations on those verses, such as: Could those of God’s Church be fleeing? Could it be some Firstfruit rising up? Does it have something to do with the 1st resurrection? 2nd resurrection? 3rd, 4th, 5th resurrection? What do you think it means?

A more important question could be: Who cares? Nobody cares?

Before mentioning the context of those 3 verses Christ spoke about a particular hour:

:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

No one is going to figure out that day and hour and so, if that is the case, what does that leave one to do?

Christ's answer was in verse 42:

"Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

Watch! That's it; just watch, and if one does not care then there is nothing to watch!

But when that hour does come, and it shall come (or Christ would be a liar), those who really cared about it AND watched will know the hour of that coming of Christ. I suspect verses 40-41 will also be clearly understood when that hour arrives.

And time will tell...

John

Tonto said...

Hey, I goofed up on my math on the 19 year time cycle thing above.

The next time cycle actually ends in 2029. BUT--- the reason it didn't work on my "first try" was because
YOU LACKED FAITH , and did not contribute enough COMMON MONEY to my work! :-)

Anonymous said...

I wonder if Paul Janvier Mbock is anon here.
I received a email with a list and chart of 19 year time cycles this week. I refused to publish the drivel.

It was signed:

In the Name of JESUS CHRIST

Testimony of Paul Janvier Mbock (Avoicecriesout)

Anonymous said...

In other words John, God IS the author of confusion.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:26,

No, I do believe I Cor 4:13, but there is an author of confusion:

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

John

Byker Bob said...

God always has been the author of confusion, 8:26. The saying that He is not is yet another misapplied cliche that Armstrongism has lifted from context to its own advantages, as has been "Let the dead bury the dead." The truth is that God uses confusion against His enemies. I believe the first example may be the linguistic confusion at the tower of Babel. Confusion was used also used on the Egyptians to protect the Israelites, as it was in various wars and battles throughout Israel's history, and then against Israel as they were punished and went into captivity. It is also obvious that the Armstrong movement has become divided and confused, as any objective observer can plainly see that it is in a state of complete confusion today.

I can also see from the comments above that some still believe that they can use math to know when the end is coming. That has been the error of the entire Adventist movement from the time of William Miller forward. Math is not the key. Father God is going to make a judgment call when He sees that conditions have become terminal and beyond redemption. This is why Jesus stated that even He did not know. The math of Revelation kicks in once certain undeniable events have occurred. And, of course Armstrongism and other organizations have falsely fanned those flames in an attempt to make it appear that those events are coming into play. They've been using that to gain acolytes and to fleece and manipulate them for decades now. I am sure that that's responsible for all of the confusion we see throughout Armstrong movement today.

BB

Anonymous said...

God is not author of confusion,

Armstrongism is.

Lake of Fire Church of God said...

The point of my post is that Matthew 24:40-42 poses a conundrum to the Splintered Armstrong Churches of God, and can't possibly make any math sense in today's ACOGs the way it was taught to us in the glory years of classic WCG Armstrongism before the failed 1972/1975 in Prophecy years. In those days it was simple: We were the Philadelphia era - half the Church would go to Petra Place of Safety for final training before Christ’s 1975 return and the other half remaining would constitute the Laodicean era. I remember sitting in Sabbath Services in Baltimore/Washington Churches (1,200 brethren) hearing this preached in the years leading up to 1972 and looking around the congregations trying to figure out who among my friends were Philadelphian destined to go to a Place of Safety and who were Laodicean destined to go through the Great Tribulation. Simple math – 50%/50%.

The Sardis era brethren in the dead Church of God, Seventh Day were never given any consideration and not counted in the equation. Presumably (although they were never acknowledged), they received the same fate as Laodiceans.

John’s 6:06 AM presents very reasonable explanations of Matthew 24:40-42. BUT, that’s not what I asked unless he is saying that is the way the ACOGs are teaching these verses now. I asked, “How do the splinters and HWA wannabes teach Matthew 24:40-42 today?” Because the ACOGs can’t be teaching it the same way it was taught to the Church when I attended R/WCG in the 1960s/1970s. Not when each ACOG and HWA wannabe is claiming Philadelphian status and the rest are all Laodiceans (except the COG7D which is the dead Sardinians of course). The math doesn’t work.

I agree with Byker Bob. Math has been the error of the entire Adventist movement from the time of William Miller forward. And, here is a condemning example of it for the ACOGs and the HWA wannabees of today.

Richard

Anonymous said...

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create (Heb bore/bara) evil (Heb ra): I YHVH do all these things.
(You can check the interlinear here)

Gen 1:1a In the beginning God created (Heb bara)
(You can check the interlinear here)

Gen 2:9b … and the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Heb ra)
(You can check the interlinear here)

Translations that render 'ra' as 'evil': KJV, JPS 1917, Jubilee 2000, ASV, Brenton Septuagint, Douay-Rheims, Darby, ERV, Webster, YLT
(You can check the parallel translations here)

What is the context?

Isa 45:1 Thus saith YHVH to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

Isa 45:5-7 I am the YHVH, and there is none else, there is no Elohim beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me.
I am YHVH, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I YHVH do all these things.

Cyrus was most likely a Zoroastrian, one who believes in a good God and an evil god. YHVH is saying that He is the only God, and the only Creator who creates both good and evil.

p.s. Farrokh Bulsara was also a Zoroastrian.

Anonymous said...

BB said: God always has been the author of confusion, 8:26
My comment: I disagree with this statement. It is not God that causes confusion. It is human beings that read things and tries to fit them in their personal human mind and experiences. If a person reads the scriptures with a clear understanding of Christ's death on the cross its relationship with God's plan and purpose they will find that those things that appear to be confusing are human failings and warnings to continue to convert ourselves and focus on spiritual growth and devotement. ASB

Retired Prof said...

All this uncertainty about exactly when Christ will return reminds me of my late father-in-law. He always made sure to tune in to the weather on radio or TV. He used to say, "If you don't get that forecast, you just gotta take it like it comes!"

Anonymous said...

author and user are two entirely different verbs...

author--be the originator of; create:

e.g. "the concept has been authored largely by insurance companies"

yet, cannot other industries use what was authored by said industry?

c f ben yochanan

Lake of Fire Church of God said...

Let's not forget that the Doctor from a degree mill - Bob "Almost Arrested for Sabbath Keeping, doubly blessed Prophet" Thiel - made this statement in the previous Post linked which prompted my question:

The Doctor Thiel said,"Most end time Christians, however, are not Philadelphian, but Laodicean and are not promised the type of protection that Jesus promised the Philadelphia Christians".

So Dr. Bob, if you are monitoring Banned by HWA (and we know that you do), and since you will not allow comments or questions on your website, how do YOU reconcile your statement above which is in direct conflict with what God's End Time Apostle Herbert Armstrong taught regarding the Petra Place of Safety in the R/WCG in the 1960s/1970s using Matthew 24:40-41 as support for the belief? 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left". Matthew 24:40-41

This why it didn't make any sense to me and appeared to be a math conundrum among ALL the ACOGS.

Richard

Anonymous said...

while you all scoff, Daniel 11:30 is being fulfilled...

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/27/asia/china-russia-iran-military-drills-intl-hnk/index.html

i posted a link weeks ago that showed v 29 being fulfilled...

i posted the 2 Thessalonians Scriptures on this thread which state how in the end time a liar will rise up and many christians will delude themselves to justify him; and why? well, read what 2 Thessalonians says...

all these are signs of the end times...

c f ben yochanan

please stop censoring me

NO2HWA said...

c f ben yochanan

The next time you end a post with "please stop censoring me" I will delete it and every post you make after that with the phrase in it.

Anonymous said...

u are an agent of the devil, so ur little decree doesnt surprise me, but understand this: God has no intention of being trimmed by anyone, especially not ur kind, old man...

Anonymous said...

so, go ahead and shoot ur best shot...censor me...you wont be entering into His Rest anyway, so it doesnt matter...

c f ben yochanan

Byker Bob said...

Context, context, context, Booch! The construction workers on the Tower of Babel project didn't suddenly read or perceive something that altered their languages. God did "divide, confuse their tongue" as we all used to sing in the old Dwight Armstrong hymn. The thing is, God doesn't deliberately confuse the people who are really His. He confuses people and brings their work to naught if they are working at counter-purposes to Him. If some guy claiming to speak for God has altered perceptions as a result of using his daughter as a sex slave, you can bet your bottom dollar that God is going to confuse that individual, to make his perceptions of prophecy and doctrine skewed, so that nothing the guy ever predicts will ever come to pass, and so that his empire self-destructs. Let's face it! If HWA had been correct, God would have been on board with his timeline, because that would mean that HWA would have just been repeating God's timeline. We would have gone to Petra in'72, would have received our final training, and would all have been ruling our cities with a rod of iron for the past 45 years. We'd know one anothers' thoughts as opposed to needing to post them for each other to read on an internet blog.

Sadly, HWA shit the bed back in the '40s, and we never knew it until David Robinson wrote his book.

BB

NO2HWA said...

"u are an agent of the devil, so ur little decree doesn't surprise me, but understand this: God has no intention of being trimmed by anyone, especially not ur kind, old man..."

ROTFLMAO! If you think I am threatened by you and your impotent god then you have a lot to learn. Your god is just as false and impotent as Bob Thiel's. I have been threatened for years with every imaginable curse and proclamation imaginable, so ask me if I feel threatened by you.

And as for not entering into his rest; that comment proves that you have ZERO idea on what the new covenant is or what it has already accomplished.

Anonymous said...

Looks like the fake Jew got his tassels in a pharisaical knot.

Byker Bob said...

There are always certain people whom you just know in advance are going to become destructive if you attempt to reign them in.

Censorship? Hah! That's on the boards run by the ACOGs where every comment that doesn't agree with official doctrine is quickly expunged, and people are banned and quarantined upon their second offense after warning. Makes me laugh that someone would take advantage of the freedom here to get their warped message out, and then accuse the person who provided the forum to do it of being an agent of the devil.

Just remember Ben, God says you get judged by the same standards which you use to judge others. Oh, and uh, you're not His gatekeeper anyway. You're just some gas bag we've all barely tolerated and snickered at. Just another version of a Bob Thiel type.

BB

Anonymous said...

I believe the four blood moons back in 2014-15 were an omen to Greater Israel—and have occurred around the time of events that are of historical significance to God’s people. This is a reason why I wasn’t surprised when Brexit succeeded and Trump won the US presidency a year later leading to the political upset we’re witnessing all over the West ever since.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous, December 28, 2019 at 11:31 AM, said:

******
"......Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create (Heb bore/bara) evil (Heb ra): I YHVH do all these things.
(You can check the interlinear here)......

......Isa 45:5-7 I am the YHVH, and there is none else, there is no Elohim beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me.
I am YHVH, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I YHVH do all these things......

.......YHVH is saying that He is the only God, and the only Creator who creates both good and evil......
******

Yes, and Satan was created evil: perfectly evil.

John

Anonymous said...

BB, December 28, 2019 at 4:13 PM, wrote:

"......Context, context, context, Booch! The construction workers on the Tower of Babel project didn't suddenly read or perceive something that altered their languages. God did "divide, confuse their tongue" as we all used to sing in the old Dwight Armstrong hymn. The thing is, God doesn't deliberately confuse the people who are really His. He confuses people and brings their work to naught if they are working at counter-purposes to Him......"

Yes, BB, context is very important. As in 1 Cor 14:33 "For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." [{confusion: Gr. tumult, or, unquietness}

God was the author of peace, as opposed to confusion, in all churches of the saints. Satan is a god and author of confusion, and when confusion is in God's Church it may well be caused by Satan working in the lives of unbelievers, and/or tares, allowed to be among those saints.

As an aside, but part of this particular thread, something else that may well throw a curve ball to those striving to understand Matthew 24:40-42 is the fact of how Jesus Christ spoke and taught: in parables!

"All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:" Matthew 13:34

Why parables?

"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." Matthew 13:13

It just wasn't their time to see/hear.

That surely could lead to some confusion among people.

When might it be time to see/hear and eliminate any confusion?

Time will tell...

John

Anonymous said...

Anon, December 28, 2019 at 11:31 AM, said:

******
"......Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create (Heb bore/bara) evil (Heb ra): I YHVH do all these things.
(You can check the interlinear here)......

......Isa 45:5-7 I am the YHVH, and there is none else, there is no Elohim beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me.
I am YHVH, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I YHVH do all these things......

.......YHVH is saying that He is the only God, and the only Creator who creates both good and evil......
******

Yes, and Satan was created evil: perfectly evil.

John

Anonymous said...


12:37 PM left out some.


SATAN'S LOSER

Ronald L. Dart: Born to lose.