tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post1289938491255896503..comments2024-03-18T22:20:48.943-07:00Comments on Banned by HWA! News and Observations About Armstrongism and the Church of God Movement: Demolition of Ambassador TV Studios and Men's Dorm OlcottNO2HWAhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02018654662518613623noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-43169874076945664142013-03-25T07:17:27.273-07:002013-03-25T07:17:27.273-07:00Velvet, in the Kingdom, Ted will be the boss of He...Velvet, in the Kingdom, Ted will be the boss of Herbie, since Herbie was a better friend of Satan than Ted was.<br /><br />(Ted certainly tried to outdo his pop in that area, but when he discovered his sister had a copy of the secret booklet 'Hop on Pop', he realized his efforts were in vain.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-69394419996497696812013-03-24T09:05:11.178-07:002013-03-24T09:05:11.178-07:00"GTA's epic treatise on proper child-rear..."GTA's epic treatise on proper child-rearing, 1963, I think it was, though it continued to be published into the mid '70's"<br /><br />When I was growing up, <a href="http://www.herbert-armstrong.org/Books%20&%20Booklets/Teach%20Your%20Children%20About%20God%20(Prelim%201974).pdf" rel="nofollow">Arch Bradley's booklet</a> was far more widespread; but GTA had long since been volubly discredited, and all the garbage he ever spewed, dumped by that point in the Church's history. Though it doesn't surprise me that such evil as Anon @ 1:43 recounts, happened as a result of the writings of someone who quite clearly followed the devil, instead of God.Velvetnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-81509189090795590742013-03-24T08:59:32.757-07:002013-03-24T08:59:32.757-07:00"They told me once to always tell the simple ..."They told me once to always tell the simple truth as best as you know it, because telling falsehoods is so much more complicated a business, and in most cases gets you tangled up in more and more as time goes on."<br /><br />I agree with your relative, Leo, though if there is anything that would unequivocally qualify for "the straight and narrow path," that would be it. My condolences on your loss. <br /><br />Though I should point out, the "sudden death" announcement actually occurred in the present-day Church (it was a relative of a Church member), not in the past; in the past, from what I can recall, suicides were treated as DFs; and never mentioned again. Though I am a bit fuzzy on that, as I can only just barely recall the two suicides in the Victoria congregation. (Membership of about 300, for those looking for statistics.) One of whom was not a member of the Church.<br /><br />"And besides, 99% of the time people will eventually find out the truth anyway. Does not the long and often sordid history of the WCG prove this in spades?"<br /><br />Perhaps. Though I don't think the ex-member websites promote the <i>whole</i> truth. Our discussions here certainly seem to reinforce that.Velvetnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-10716319871530212982013-03-23T22:25:19.636-07:002013-03-23T22:25:19.636-07:00Joe, the stat I heard from the Mail Processing Cen...Joe, the stat I heard from the Mail Processing Center (which was a primary source of many stats issuing out of HQ's) was that in terms of sheer numbers every ten years the WCG lost roughly HALF it's membership due to attrition. And of course certain biblical references were used to explain and justify such a dreadful record.<br /><br />And I think the height of WCG membership was around the FOT of 1989, if I recall correctly. The numbers started a slow downward spiral from about that point onward, culminating in 1995 when the WCG as a viable organization collapsed in upon itself fairly rapidly.Leonardonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-70810893186496944392013-03-23T20:45:22.455-07:002013-03-23T20:45:22.455-07:00Velvet:
You are correct. Peak attendance in WCG (...Velvet:<br /><br />You are correct. Peak attendance in WCG (which included man, woman and child) was about 140,000 in the early 1980s. <br /><br />My 200,000 guess (which is likely low) would have included EX-members as well. I actually think that it was likely about 300,000 or more people attended WCG at one time or another. There has been a high attrition rate in WCG, and I once heard someone in Pasadena give me some stats on it. <br /><br />Pasadena was always stat crazy, and the COG as a whole still is. Similarly, the Nazis were also stat nuts too! LOL! The number that I heard as the average "HALF LIFE" of a WCG member was around 11 to 12 years. WCG grew by being able to bring them in faster than they lost them. <br /><br />Joe Moeller <br />Cody, WY Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08762918803284340960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-51783280140826286542013-03-23T15:07:33.853-07:002013-03-23T15:07:33.853-07:00You know, Anon 1:43, that account is so tragic, an...You know, Anon 1:43, that account is so tragic, and sadly, it was experienced in principle by far too many kids raised in the WCG, especially in its more oppressive era - i.e., the time following the initial publication of GTA's epic treatise on proper child-rearing, 1963, I think it was, though it continued to be published into the mid '70's.<br /><br />I was not raised in the Church, and during my early years in it I foolishness looked upon those who were as being far superior to me, very fortunate and blessed by God to have gotten off to such a proper start in life. Seriously, I had absolutely no idea at the time what many of these kids had endured growing up. When I first went out to AC (1976) I distinctly recall that many of the students (about 95% of which had come from church families) seemed to suffer from a LOT of repressed anger, even to the degree of rage. Then I started hearing the stories, began connecting the dots slowly over time, and finally saw the utter futility of GTA's advice, at least how it was put into practical action in many church homes, at Imperial Schools, etc.<br /><br />There was a friend of mine at AC who confided to me once that he tried to take rat poison as a young teenager, with the same intent you had with the chemicals.<br /><br />Just terrible.<br /><br />On the humorous side, though: first, I'm glad your knowledge of and expertise with chemical compounds at the time wasn't all that well developed! And two, that following day with the horrific case of intestinal gas must have been a doozy, I should think, depending of course upon what specific components were involved!<br /><br />But the kid who ratted on you, whatever became of him, the little rascal?Leonardonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-90231563775257023192013-03-23T13:43:28.159-07:002013-03-23T13:43:28.159-07:00Hey, I ate a bottle of chemicals from my chemistry...Hey, I ate a bottle of chemicals from my chemistry set as a WCG child, and fully intended on it being a permanent solution to chaotic, random, excessive punishment experienced in daily life.<br /><br />Two things happened. I had a horrible case of gas the following day, and when I confided in a fellow church teenager who told his parents, I ended up getting spanked, reprimanded for bringing dishonour to the family, and told never to do it again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-55367114504704703932013-03-23T11:42:49.719-07:002013-03-23T11:42:49.719-07:00Velvet, I agree with your comments above about COG...Velvet, I agree with your comments above about COG suicides. I've seen this happen a lot: a relatively young or otherwise healthy person suddenly dies. And then it becomes almost a dead giveaway (and truly no pun intended) when the cause of death is never mentioned. But what tends to be the very first question that pops up in your mind when you initially hear such unexpected sad news?<br /><br />Yes, of course: "What happened?"<br /><br />I had to directly deal with a suicide in my family many years ago, and I choose to inform relatives and friends of the tragic news with the unvarnished truth, because I figured covering up the reality would only serve to promote rumors and all manner of unseemly speculations among those concerned. And the sad part is that I learned this principle from the very same person who chose to end their life in this manner. They told me once to always tell the simple truth as best as you know it, because telling falsehoods is so much more complicated a business, and in most cases gets you tangled up in more and more as time goes on.<br /><br />"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive!"<br /><br />And besides, 99% of the time people will eventually find out the truth anyway. Does not the long and often sordid history of the WCG prove this in spades?Leonardonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-41719235194873172502013-03-23T11:10:21.947-07:002013-03-23T11:10:21.947-07:00Anonymous 5:40 wrote: "What do cults offer pe...Anonymous 5:40 wrote: "What do cults offer people that some find so appealing?"<br /><br />Probably first would be the absolute sense of CERTAINTY cults pretend to offer with their overly-simplistic answers to life's biggest questions. Not a whole lot of thought or reflection is required to comprehend the simple and appealing explanations they tend to offer.<br /><br />Second may be the sense of personal importance such "answers" offer new recruits - the heady feeling that "I'm special now that I possess secret knowledge known to only a select few." Let's not underestimate the tremendous appeal this has to human vanity, which we all have to one degree or another.<br /><br />Third probably would be the strong sense of community and tight-knit social cohesion that cults almost always offer, and which recruits often find hard to escape from once formed.<br /><br />These, and other factors unique to each separate recruit coming into the cult, account for much of what lures them. And like you mentioned, a person's pre-existing insecurities, suggestibility, lack of critical thinking skills, paranoia and so on all exert their influence.<br /><br />I think it important to think upon such things, because as American culture continues to split apart at the seams this will create a dumbed-down society more and more desperate for the simple answers cults specialize in.Leonardonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-5746589311052997352013-03-23T07:22:37.267-07:002013-03-23T07:22:37.267-07:00"It is probable that suicide was very much un..."It is probable that suicide was very much underreported in WCG."<br /><br />This might be true; I can't recall any suicides being mentioned from the pulpit when I was a kid, but the suicide of one (adult, never raised in the Church) schizophrenic son of one of the members was discussed.<br /><br />In the Church of the present day, it seems any "sudden death" that's reported, without qualifiers (i.e. heart attack, stroke, etc. especially if they are young) is likely to be; but they won't say that from the pulpit! (Although there seems to be no problem discussing it amongst the members during fellowship.)<br /><br />That could be endemic to my area, though, because the local newspaper has a habit of doing the same. So, they may just be following the example of the world around them in that.Velvetnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-39024077646176555722013-03-23T07:13:41.203-07:002013-03-23T07:13:41.203-07:00"It appears to me that the suicide rate for t..."It appears to me that the suicide rate for the COG community is lower than average."<br /><br />Joe Moeller,<br /><br />Statistically speaking, you might be correct (though your peak membership numbers are sky-high; the last membership numbers I recall being reported were in the 140K range and this was in the mid-80s, when Church growth began to stagnate), your argument highlights a more distressing point.<br /><br />IF (big if) statistically, the suicide rate in the Church was lower than in the general population, then the fact that certain individuals in the Church, actively drove individual members to suicide, makes your suggestion sound worse.<br /><br />Which doesn't even touch on the fact that there are suicides listed on the PT site, of those who killed themselves <i>because</i> of the changes (I consider anyone who takes their own lives in one of the splinter groups to be in this category as well -- yes, even Ratzmann); I do believe their blood is not on their own hands, however (nor any of those mentioned) but instead, their blood is on the hands of those who drove them to it.<br /><br />Generally speaking, I mean; I am sure every case is different.Velvetnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-32257982695266088642013-03-23T05:40:55.534-07:002013-03-23T05:40:55.534-07:00Correlation is not necessarily causation. Those w...Correlation is not necessarily causation. Those who committed suicide in the WCG may have been tormented by the church which led to suicide or they may have been tormented before their WCG experience and joined the church to find answers. What types of personalities are drawn to the WCG and other cults? To what degree does insecurity, suggestibility, lack of critical thinking skills, pessimism, paranoia, etc. play in someone joining a cult? What do cults offer people that some find so appealing? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-9285759396363896942013-03-21T21:35:38.411-07:002013-03-21T21:35:38.411-07:00Head Usher wrote: "If god were really at work...Head Usher wrote: "If god were really at work exclusively with members of the cult, intervening to help in people's lives, instilling them with divine peace and hope, those people would be really remarkable. How many remarkable church members were there? More to the point, how many people were transformed into remarkable people as a result of their contact with "the church"?<br /><br /><br />Exactly. Those are just the kind of practical real-world questions I'm interested in.<br /><br />Of course we would not reasonably expect to see an unrealistic degree of perfection, but I think it fair to say that the actual fruits produced over many decades were considerably less than what could have realistically been expected, and FAR less than "advertised." The actual results did not come anywhere close to what the theory predicted.<br /><br />Though the diehards will be quick to point out that various parables in the gospel accounts predicted that the failure rate would be high. I once knew a long-time minister who had a quite poor reputation in virtually all the areas he served in, as such areas apparently had fairly high drop-out rates for members during his tenures. But the minister, instead of humbly asking himself some serious questions, arrogantly (and publicly in a sermon) said that this is exactly what the Bible predicted would happen.Leonardonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-8618816790447663432013-03-21T21:22:43.924-07:002013-03-21T21:22:43.924-07:00I think suicides in general are under-reported. If...I think suicides in general are under-reported. If you are a family member, it's easier to say it was an accident with a gun than to say it was an intentionally self-inflicted wound. If you're a parent, it makes it look like you're a terrible parent. If you're a family member, it just avoids lots of uncomfortable questions about what was wrong. If you're also under all that pressure to appear "perfect" put on you by the church, I can imagine suicides are even more under-reported. In addition to any normal stigma, there's the added church stigma that it casts doubt upon everything that everyone is doing, so there's a whole bunch more uncomfortable questions that it poses, that no one is too keen to face.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-15266339032921870652013-03-21T19:43:16.872-07:002013-03-21T19:43:16.872-07:00While the suicide information at Painful Truth is ...While the suicide information at Painful Truth is informative, I don't believe we would be correct in using it as any basis for statistics. Most of that info was probably provided by former members.<br /><br />It is probable that suicide was very much underreported in WCG. Actually, where would you even be able to report it? I think it was much more prevalent than believed.<br /><br />BBAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-41727962301343628882013-03-21T19:37:21.520-07:002013-03-21T19:37:21.520-07:00I have personally known several young people who h...I have personally known several young people who have committed suicide, although I was not in contact with any of them immediately prior. While I'm not glad that they did it, because it is tragic, it remains a rather obvious fact that they felt so unhappy and so completely trapped by their circumstances that they couldn't proceed. I respect the fact that they needed to get out of their situation, even though it is sad that they couldn't find any other exit.<br /><br />If all the hullabaloo were right about Armstrongism being the one and only way to find god, then you would expect the suicide rate to be at least lower, if not nonexistant. If the church provided so many answers and solutions, and that "way of life" really did produce "true freedom" and happier lives, as promised, the suicide rate would not be on a par with the evil outside "world." If god were really at work exclusively with members of the cult, intervening to help in people's lives, instilling them with divine peace and hope, those people would be really remarkable. How many remarkable church members were there? More to the point, how many people were transformed into remarkable people as a result of their contact with "the church"?<br /><br />One of the people I knew who committed suicide was born into "the church." He was about 30 years old when he hung himself. All those years steeped in Armstrongism. Where was god? Where were all the supposed benefits? <br /><br />The suicide rate is just one variable, but it is a very telling one. It is just another proof that Armstrongism offers none of the answers to life it claims to offer. All it does is take your money and fill your head with lies and empty promises that make you even more trapped and hemmed in than you otherwise would be. Either you're part of the solution or you're part of the problem, and Armstrongism is definitely part of the problem.<br /><br />If you are considering joining or are a new convert, learn from us, the survivors, who have been there and done that. Especially those like myself who were born and raised in Armstrongism, but survived because we eventually came to see through its smoke and mirrors to recognize it for the empty, dangerous cult that it is.Head Ushernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-66177705404096176352013-03-21T19:22:02.748-07:002013-03-21T19:22:02.748-07:00Suicide is not surprising. What does surprise me ...Suicide is not surprising. What does surprise me is that there were not more homicides. Imagine having your health, family, wealth destroyed by this cult. Should we not be surprised that leaders were not assassinated? Think of the damage they did do so many individuals and families. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-77771157629512349102013-03-21T18:52:59.611-07:002013-03-21T18:52:59.611-07:00The rate of suicide in the United States is about ...The rate of suicide in the United States is about 12 to 15 individuals per 100,000 per year. <br /><br />Suicide is actually a top cause of death around the world, and 1.53% of ALL deaths in the USA can be accounted to by suicide. <br /><br />If we give the WCG universe a minimum of 200,000 who attended at one time or another, then the 51 collective suicides over the years, shown over at the "Painful Truth" website seems very low. <br /><br />If statistics be a guide, then there should be about 28 suicides a year amongst those who once part of the WCG. This would mean over the last 20 years, a number of about 500 suicides would equal the "normal" rate for the rest of society. <br /><br />It appears to me that the suicide rate for the COG community is lower than average. <br /><br />The top reasons for suicide are schizophrenia , PTSD, BiPolar disorder, Substance abuse, Gambling addiction, financial problems and severe medical conditions. <br /><br />This post is not to deny any situation or tragedy of those who have been in the COG and who have committed suicide. Please note this disclaimer carefully before you flame me. <br /><br />However, in any large group of people, statistically, you will have a reversion to the mean. COG people have their share of problems , hangups, dysfunctions etc. It appears though that suicide has a lower incidence amongst them than average though. <br /><br />Peace Brothers. <br /><br />Joe Moeller <br />Cody, WY Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08762918803284340960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-53825853206447062852013-03-21T18:50:06.507-07:002013-03-21T18:50:06.507-07:00Amen to that, Anon! And the American public schoo...Amen to that, Anon! And the American public school system indeed used to teach such a vital subject in principle all throughout a student's academic career!<br /><br />But then something to consider: if we once again re-instituted the teaching of basic critical thinking skills much of the huge marketing and advertising industry would be neutralized in its intended effects very quickly, the pop Hollywood culture would pretty much collapse due to lack of interest, and perhaps worst of all, politicians in Washington would actually have to work in the best interests of their constituents instead of duping them by their fancy rhetoric that they care when in reality they undermine such interests virtually every chance they get.Leonardonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-52883881737328422362013-03-21T18:27:20.923-07:002013-03-21T18:27:20.923-07:00What really needs to be demolished is the ability ...What really needs to be demolished is the ability of men to control the minds of people that are easily swayed by their smooth words. We need to help people develope critical thinking skills.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-54022002636995799522013-03-21T17:09:12.891-07:002013-03-21T17:09:12.891-07:00GG,
My condolences on your loss. The suicide list...GG,<br /><br />My condolences on your loss. The suicide list at the PT is sobering, to say the least. The couple on the list that I find really disturbing, are the people (one minister as well I believe) who killed themselves after (because of) the changes. The Church always was sorely lacking in ministerial support, but I find it horrifying and ironic that, for all the Evangelicals screaming about how their Jesus is love, after the changes, they became even <i>more</i> hateful than they were before, as faithful(??) leaders(??) of the people.Velvetnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-83173838132997054802013-03-21T16:59:40.043-07:002013-03-21T16:59:40.043-07:00Doug,
The Surrey office actually already sent me ...Doug,<br /><br />The Surrey office actually already sent me those booklets. :-)Velvetnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-33883620392675994162013-03-21T14:05:41.569-07:002013-03-21T14:05:41.569-07:00“Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as...“Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.” — Blaise PascalLeonardonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-68041086994782382262013-03-21T13:18:14.718-07:002013-03-21T13:18:14.718-07:00Thaks Leonardo, for the link. I wonder if these CO...Thaks Leonardo, for the link. I wonder if these COG groups had any idea of the pain and harm done by cutting children off from extended families and other potential social supports. Not to ever celebrate Christmas, get a birthday gift from your grandmother or aunt, exchange a valentine with a friend. The true evil was that old man in Pasadena that people worshipped as they put their brains far, far back on the back shelf. I had figured out long ago that the less spent on gifts or family holidays the more there was for the old bastard in Pasadena and I had never gone near a COG, not that I could have, as they keep the locations hidden. No church building --- more money for Pasadena.<br />G.G.G.G.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-22181058462430386882013-03-21T10:27:22.516-07:002013-03-21T10:27:22.516-07:00G.G. wrote: "I had a teenaged relative who ki...G.G. wrote: "I had a teenaged relative who killed himself after being born into and growing up in that church and possibly a splinter group later. I don't know how much the church was to blame but it couldn't have helped."<br /><br />You're right, G.G., its hard to come to definite cause and effect conclusions about such a horrible tragedy of teenage suicide, which often have multiple causes.<br /><br />But the WCG did have a higher-than-average rate of suicide than occurs within the general public. Though like many other unpleasant things associated with it, the Church tended to sweep such events under the carpet and be hush-hush about it.<br /><br />Here's a link that discusses this tragic issue in a little more detail, though I'm quite sure the list it includes is not comprehensive:<br /><br />http://hwarmstrong.com/suicide.htmLeonardonoreply@blogger.com