tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post1989806448763061870..comments2024-03-28T14:49:35.135-07:00Comments on Banned by HWA! News and Observations About Armstrongism and the Church of God Movement: Ummmm......NO2HWAhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02018654662518613623noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-52197412025535205232018-03-30T12:40:06.733-07:002018-03-30T12:40:06.733-07:00"But maybe it's just me that's the pr..."But maybe it's just me that's the problem." <br /> <br />Part of your problem is that the system, perhaps any system yet devised, does not want to admit, or will not recognize, that the system is part of the problem. So, it blames the people. If the people have problems, it's because they did not follow the system! So, people blame themselves. You have internalized the defects in your belief system, and are blaming yourself. Nobody is perfect. Stop taking the blame for the defects in your belief system. Every system yet devised is flawed, and has rationalizations to exonerate itself. <br /> <br />-- Hideous "Troll" (because I expose the system). <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-6561512898690520462018-03-28T19:30:59.977-07:002018-03-28T19:30:59.977-07:00"But maybe it's just me that's the pr..."But maybe it's just me that's the problem." <br /> <br />Probably not. I think many people who did all they knew how to be good have had a lot of unanswered prayer. I certainly have. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-49535786711780882202018-03-28T19:21:59.157-07:002018-03-28T19:21:59.157-07:00I have never had the impression that Dennis was &#...I have never had the impression that Dennis was 'preachy' and even if so, he does not seem any more preachy than any of the rest of us on this blog. Maybe I'm used to being preached at. Maybe we all do itAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-88742022507957914472018-03-28T15:02:21.612-07:002018-03-28T15:02:21.612-07:00Anon 9:15
I agree with Denis, my heart goes out t...Anon 9:15<br /><br />I agree with Denis, my heart goes out to you. There is nothing we can do to be good enough. You are living your life the best you can, that is good enough.<br />JimAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-59017439188085351132018-03-28T11:17:24.768-07:002018-03-28T11:17:24.768-07:00You're good enough 915You're good enough 915Dennishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17266112796114131485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-75114549753844701012018-03-28T09:29:48.930-07:002018-03-28T09:29:48.930-07:00LOL, Dennis!
Indeed, a lot of the Bible is stupid ...LOL, Dennis!<br />Indeed, a lot of the Bible is stupid outdated trash, although it also contains some wisdom- as do almost all 'holy books' of other religions, and many comic strips, etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-25856251789665792342018-03-28T09:15:43.080-07:002018-03-28T09:15:43.080-07:00Unanswered prayer has been long explained as one&#...Unanswered prayer has been long explained as one's lack of faith, or your sins make God turn a deaf ear or the answer from God is just "NO" like Paul's ailment not being removed. Of course the lack of healing comes with this subject. <br /><br />After a 17 year of a bad marriage, my wife divorced me. I was free to start over and I found a wonderful, beautiful women who was mistreated most of her life. We were both on cloud nine, but after 3 months of marriage she was told she had 4 months to live. At her funeral, in my eulogy, I told everyone how angry I was with the Creator. For her to have been healed would have been a major miracle. My faith in God did not go away, but my "faith" in me went to a new low.<br /><br />I do suffer from the "not good enough" label discussed in a recent Dennis post. The lack of focus on grace and God's love in the COG's is probably part of the cause. The concept that we go ask God for daily forgiveness becomes hard to accept that you are worthy of forgiveness. After 49 years in COG's it's still a struggle and I never found the Joy that Christ promised. But maybe it's just me that's the problem. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-66861451945479357392018-03-27T23:23:01.163-07:002018-03-27T23:23:01.163-07:007:17
I do agree.
Although a) complete faith, tot...7:17<br /><br />I do agree.<br /><br />Although a) complete faith, total obedience and trust in a particular god is the core of most religions b) I do admire the pureness of theory but struggle when this philosophical pureness turns into practical hubris.<br /><br />I guess that is the difference with an understanding of the spirit of the law.<br />Faith and hubris. Two sides of the same medal/the force/yin yang or whatever. <br /><br /><br />ncknckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580008070423402328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-74973007640213659202018-03-27T22:02:15.004-07:002018-03-27T22:02:15.004-07:00(I recently ran across a joke that applies to this...(I recently ran across a joke that applies to this topic, but couldn't remember either all the details or where I read it. On Google I found a copy at humorplanet.com.)<br /><br /><br /><br />A journalist assigned to the Jerusalem bureau takes an apartment overlooking the Wailing Wall. Every day when she looks out, she sees an old Jewish man praying vigorously. So, the journalist goes down and introduces herself to the old man.<br /><br />She asks, "You come every day to the wall. How long have you done that and what are you praying for?"<br /><br />The old man replies, "I have come here to pray every day for 25 years. In the morning I pray for world peace and then for the brotherhood of man. I go home have a cup of tea and I come back and pray for the eradication of illness and disease from the earth."<br /><br />The journalist is amazed. "How does it make you feel to come here every day for 25 years and pray for these things?" she asks.<br /><br />The old man looks at her sadly. "Like I'm talking to a wall." <br /><br /><br />Retired Profnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-45389793769417395792018-03-27T20:27:48.013-07:002018-03-27T20:27:48.013-07:00"Minister Mode" - Top Ways you can tell ..."Minister Mode" - Top Ways you can tell a Minister from a "regular person" <br /><br />1. Must say "God" in high-low-high tonal inflection<br />2. Must say "certainly", "behooves", "well" once a minute<br />3. Must grab lectern with both hands like he's being held down from liftoff<br />4. Must sit in the front row and center of the meeting place<br />5. Must be able to go on for 20 minutes about something that could take 5 minutes<br />6. Must always conclude with "In Conclusion"<br />7. Must never conclude with the first "In Conclusion"<br />8. Must repeat turn-to scripture with breaks at least 3 times<br />9. Must lose place at least once during the service<br />10. Must be at least a little irked if someone forgot the cold ice water<br />11. Must repeat three scriptures in rapid fire with no explanation at least once<br />12. Must stick to three specific points during sermon, no more, no less<br />13. Must have a "Specific Purpose Statement" throughout <br />14. Must forget to stick to the "Specific Purpose Statement" <br />15. Must read from the Pastor General Report at least once<br />16. Must switch from "Two-Handed Lectern" to "One-Handed Lectern" and back again and then back to "Two-Handed Lectern" within 10 minutes once<br />17. Must start sermon with line about the beautiful weather we're having<br />18. Must make one cheesy joke per sermon, then expect laughter concerning said cheesy joke<br />19. Must take 1 minute before speaking to arrange material on lectern<br />20. Must take 1 minute after speaking to collect material on lectern<br /><br />Dennis, compared to what I remember above (in jest, mind you), and no I'm not talking about you but ministers in general in my past recollection, you're doing fine with your minister mode. I think you're just being you. I for one am not triggered by it (and that's weird for me, trust me I get triggered SO easy) - because you're nothing on here like what I remember. I think it'd be kind of ridiculous to expect you to remove every trace of ministerial programming from your memory :)<br /><br /> <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-24322100799647191912018-03-27T19:49:01.078-07:002018-03-27T19:49:01.078-07:00"and the goose that laid the Golden egg lay d..."and the goose that laid the Golden egg lay dead."<br /><br />I would give a small fortune to witness these former ministers in their new non church jobs. The horror of people disagreeing with them, mocking them, maybe being mistreated, and gulp, having to obey a real work boss. And people having rights that they stand up for. <br />The real world must be like a Hollywood slasher movie to them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-78776685792675415722018-03-27T19:38:52.918-07:002018-03-27T19:38:52.918-07:00Dennis
Well, if you can't pick up on your '...Dennis<br />Well, if you can't pick up on your 'minister mode,' we certainly can.<br /><br />Then I'll have to be more aware of that as that would not be my goal.DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-28160165910102502312018-03-27T19:17:45.666-07:002018-03-27T19:17:45.666-07:00NCK 1:07 said: To not accept medical care when in ...NCK 1:07 said: To not accept medical care when in need is one of the worst kinds of hubris, since it hurts far more people than just the person in need of medical support.<br /><br />The hurting of people and being a member of the WCG went hand in hand. Herbert Armstrong taught that as the "Eklesia" (The called out ones), we were not of the world - just in it. Obedience and trust in God for all things were required. No Easter, Christmas and birthday celebrations hurt most non-church members who were/are family. The trust in healing was just another example of obedience and faith constituting a chapter in the book of life for a WCG/COG member.<br /><br />The tandem of physical sin and not discerning the body teaching of the COGs is horrible theology. James asked "If" the person had sinned. Obviously there was a possibility that he (The person) didn't sin. The not discerning the body is obvious by the context, about considering ones conduct and care for fellow members of the church. Many are weak, many are sick and many die spiritually because of their poor conduct within the church (Body) of Christ.<br /><br />Healing is a certainty from God - just not a certainty at all times. Our local Elder gave a sermon in the 80's about the many miracles of healing from the long anointing circuit he traveled in the 1960's. Cancer and paralysis were healed instantly - sometimes in front of astonished nurses and doctors. Many other examples of all kinds of maladies that were healed with the recipients name were spoken of throughout the sermon. I was healed personally form a massive internal hemorrhage at a time when I wasn't attending church - I wasn't obeying God - I wasn't anointed and I didn't pray for healing. The church of God I was in previously told me and others that we were not and could not have been healed because we were not in the one and only church that he (Christ) heads. These same people would tell all the commentators of this blog who are not keeping all of the commandments, that you have no understanding based upon Psalm 111:10. Yet they claim to be using cutting edge technology to preach a gospel and do a work where that technology came from a lot of people with a real good understanding to invent highly technical engineered products and machinery that they themselves would have never been able to do. These same men would want to have you understand that all sickness is the result of physical sin, but can never give you an explanation from the bible what actually is physical sin. So I and you are left to have to believe that Christ gave up his body to be brutally beaten so that I/you can be healed from a physical sin that I/you committed which I/you have no idea what it is. These leaders of the COG's lack understanding (Spiritual) themselves because they put God in a box and elevate themselves first and foremost. The result of this action is a witness and record against them for all to see and a stain upon the name and omnipotence of God. What About The Truthnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-60738488299777455502018-03-27T18:37:25.110-07:002018-03-27T18:37:25.110-07:00"I can't say Ambassador College students ..."I can't say Ambassador College students were that well-trained in biblical studies and hermeneutics."<br /><br />AC students did not need to study hermeneutics. They were not on track to become theologians or scholars or even to defend anything that they preached, if ministers. They had the force of an autocratic form of religion behind them. They could leverage fear. All they needed to know was the contents of HWA's little booklets. The rest was imperious governance over local congregations and the despised lay members. What they needed to understand was the force and utility of brutality which in their odd self-serving world passed as "leadership." <br /><br />And AC students understood this system. Very few of them ever walked out because they felt they were not getting an education. I think most of them found what they wanted in life until WCG imploded and the goose that laid to golden egg lay dead. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08487906691943831671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-80559434536365548592018-03-27T17:50:26.875-07:002018-03-27T17:50:26.875-07:00Dennis
Well, if you can't pick up on your '...Dennis<br />Well, if you can't pick up on your 'minister mode,' we certainly can. It's a occupational hazard. Even when school teachers retire, they still see the world as one giant classroom, with them being the teacher. A family member is a retired high school teacher, so I get this crap all the time. It's a common experience.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-36386222106435141382018-03-27T16:55:50.424-07:002018-03-27T16:55:50.424-07:00and too... I do feel quite free of it all albeit ...and too... I do feel quite free of it all albeit a bit lonely at times in my recent move to be where I want to be for the final chapters of my life. I do not worry about the Lake of Fire some diehards insist is awaiting me nor do I stress over finding the true church or right beliefs. I am very confident in my scientific and historical perspectives.<br /><br /> Some accuse me of reverting to my WCG minister mode when I write, but that is lame and stupid in my view. If anything I revert to my childhood religion which was balanced, non threatening, not exclusive and certainly not filled with the clowns and characters WCG and all the present splinter types are. <br /><br />Every week it seems I vow to bail out of Banned. Then I think. "But those are my only real friends!" Pretty pathetic!! lol. <br /><br />I stayed past my own expiration date out of loving the people I pastored. I hung on too long thinking we'd get through this. Greenville was a church of Gerald Weston loyalists, at least in the leadership. It was the most difficult experience I ever had in pastoring as I didn't realize I was being stabbed in the back by the men smiling at me . Dan Rogers came to give me my 25 year watch , which had a dead battery, lol, and then stood up and told the congregation while I'm sitting there not to listen to me. I was teaching the background of the Birth Narratives and it annoyed HQ it seemed. I ended up being asked by my catholic priest friend to teach it to his church! The Priest even paid me to do so. I told him I'd be using Raymond Brown's material, a high catholic scholar, thinking he'd be impressed. He said, "Cool, I was his student in seminary." Oh... lol<br /><br />Just home from work so in blather mode. Sorry. I love my work and have plenty of clients here in Oregon. 5-7 a day, five days a week and getting a nice reputation here as the guy to see if you have neck and back problems or the stress of you life is eating you up with headaches. <br /><br />I am just waiting for the day I have a client on the table and they put two and two together and know who I am from my and their WCG past ! I've come close with some whose relatives were in "that church." <br /><br /> <br /><br /> <br /><br /> DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-21643037739708408552018-03-27T16:28:55.614-07:002018-03-27T16:28:55.614-07:00Darren said: "I can't say Ambassador Col...Darren said: "I can't say Ambassador College students were that well-trained in biblical studies and hermeneutics. Nothing personal against you. But the Armstrongs did none of us many favors.'<br /><br />They weren't. I wasn't. AC was , as some know me already to say, a mere bible reading education. I don't take it personally as I really don't consider my "education" at AC to be anything new to the one I already had previous to coming there. I knew the Bible very well before I went to AC We soaked in it from the second grade on up thru High School in the Dutch Reformed Church with memorization, Sunday school which rehearsed all the stories and catechism which actually delved into the why and how of church doctrine. We had to memorize the Westminster Confession of Faith and it was big and long!!!!! I could rattle off all the books of the Bible OT and NT since second grade. <br /><br />All I got from AC, in hindsight, was repetition and the speculative prophetic perspective, which believe it or not, I took with a grain of salt. I stood watching them build the auditorium in 1971 thinking, "HWA and these folk don't really believe the end is all that close or why this?" I see the same in Pack's campus. He is not really spending money on building because the end is so so near. And "blessed is he who is found so doing" has nothing to do with building more shit and buying more stuff to decorate it right up to the Second Coming.<br /><br />In my youthful ministry time I honestly thought that the church would smooth out and balance up when HWA died and I told people he would die asking them, then how would they feel? I told that to Waterhouse and all I got from him was "well, I'll believe after three days and three nights." I thought he was a fool and that was an arrogant and ignorant statement if ever I heard one. <br /><br />I thought I could be a force for the good, next generation ministry etc, but that was delusional as well. I pastored 14 congregations in five states and mostly two and sometimes three at a time. I always wondered how I got stuck at "Preaching Elder" for 26 years when my inner circle buddies were ordained Pastor Rank stuff. It took awhile to realize I was not in the loop. Only the last five years, when I was in mental transition did I speak at the FOT and had a great time stirring up the pot. Little did I know I was publically hanging myself slowly and eventually was not about to cooperate mentally with the Tkaches and their reinvention of the theological wheel I already had memorized from my youth. . lol. anyway.....DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-76007254426532392562018-03-27T15:51:54.606-07:002018-03-27T15:51:54.606-07:002:57 PM, that is your opinion and thankfully you d...2:57 PM, that is your opinion and thankfully you don't get to dictate how I choose to live my life, and yes I find scripture inspirational, but just because you were burned in that Armstrong horse crapp doesn't give you the right to tell me what to do. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-80612054610913527432018-03-27T15:34:43.694-07:002018-03-27T15:34:43.694-07:00" In my old age, I have given up on God givin..." In my old age, I have given up on God giving me free stuff. So I see these verses differently as a consequence."<br /><br />So that means you're (wait for it...WCG cliche incoming...) BITTER!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-46758940869575262532018-03-27T14:57:23.617-07:002018-03-27T14:57:23.617-07:00Looking for guidance and direction from the pages ...Looking for guidance and direction from the pages of the Bible is a colossal waste of time. <br /><br />So many are consumed in trying to understand what the Bible is saying to them. When we grasp that it is not meant for us, and is not speaking to us, we are freed up to search for answers from more meaningful sources. No progress will be made as long as our faces are stuck in the sacred scriptures. "Studying the Bible" is wasting your life. Do something worthwhile with the time you have left.Gerald Bronkarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01351342089409543119noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-69615922096356626792018-03-27T14:52:59.849-07:002018-03-27T14:52:59.849-07:00This is not an easy issue to respond to. I have m...This is not an easy issue to respond to. I have my viewpoint which may or may not be correct. My view is that none of the listed statements can be viewed in isolation. They are each embedded in a large system that we call the New Testament consisting of the New Covenant and its implications for practice and worship. <br /><br />At the over-arcing level, God has purposes, plans and objectives. The entire system is subordinate to that level. An example is what happened to Job. He lived in a system where if you were obedient you received blessings. If your slipped up, you sacrificed an animal. Job thought he was walking the straight and narrow, expecting a continuation of the blessings he had always experienced, and he got suddenly hammered without explanation. But it wasn't supposed to happen that way according to what he understood. <br /><br />And I think that James probably does not belong in the canon. <br /><br />And the Book of Job is a recounting of his "court room" defense based on how the established system failed him. And God agreed with Job after the debate was over. Job's expectations had been eclipsed by a larger purpose. <br /><br />This is the closest I can come. I always thought Job got a raw and scary deal. I think you have to be really oriented toward the afterlife to have this give you any comfort. <br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08487906691943831671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-49663227230546648222018-03-27T13:07:07.903-07:002018-03-27T13:07:07.903-07:00Dennis.
I feel stupid after reading the other res...Dennis.<br /><br />I feel stupid after reading the other responses.<br /><br />We hail from the same religious background though my tradition is older. There are reasons I have called you "a brother" before. <br /><br />The pastor I mentioned was the later wcg pastor who had been a trained doctor before, abandoning it all for sending out co worker letters at the press. (no its not bb) Apparently he could still see merits of his former profession. His closest friend was an extremely intelligent apothecarist eho like him abandoned his trade and only 20 years later officially became a local elder while having been overqualified all the while. Ironically he being s friend of dr stav got to introduce the revised healing doctrine. He did it brilliantly but he did not survive the many changes sane. <br /><br />As a headstart we had many sermons on human interest, team building, young families, gentlemanly behavior.<br /><br />After pastoral rotation sermons changed more to prophecy and legalism, keeping the law etc. Mostly irrellevant stuff for daily interaction. The founding pastor was so much loved that the three times he came and visit all the neighboring congregations were warned to remain put and not all come and visit. <br /><br />I now realize our pastor must have been jealous that a colleague of his could be genuinely loved and popular. It also explains why qualified AC graduates seldom got a chance to speak, since in my area they also hailed from families whith genuine life experience in sacrifice and humility not the proverbial pastor brats or church nobility.<br /><br />To not accept medical care when in need is one of the worst kinds of hubris, since it hurts far more people than just the person in need of medical support. It is possible to argue some respect for the no medicine point but in the end it only produces bitterness, grief and even more hubris for unnecessary sacrifice.<br /><br />Ncknckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580008070423402328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-49345070432056980392018-03-27T12:06:09.074-07:002018-03-27T12:06:09.074-07:00The passage in James, if you don't limit yours...The passage in James, if you don't limit yourself to certain translations, seems to indicate raising up the forgiven sinner in the afterlife. The anointing is primarily to help us meet our Maker, hence the emphasis on confession of sins. By Jesus' stripes we are healed -- not primarily so we can get over our coughy, headachy sicknesses during flu season, but for the healing of our spiritual condition.<br /><br />The other passages from Jesus are not meant to promise that God will be our genie in a bottle. But he will do anything to provide what we need for salvation. We don't seek, knock, and ask for fame and fortune, but for truth and eventual union with the Truth Incarnate. We don't really search for pearls of great price, but for eternal life with God, which has no price.<br /><br />I remember getting in trouble in the fourth grade when I passed a classroom in the hallway. The class door had a sign that said "Please knock," so I rapped on the door as I smiled and kept walking. The sign was not defective; it was me, the interpreter, who was defective (or in this case, I had a defective sense of humor).<br /><br />I can't say Ambassador College students were that well-trained in biblical studies and hermeneutics. Nothing personal against you. But the Armstrongs did none of us many favors.Darren C.http://www.catholicevangel.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-59436797706646383112018-03-27T12:04:41.230-07:002018-03-27T12:04:41.230-07:00Dennis
Didn't the Church teach back then that...Dennis<br /><br />Didn't the Church teach back then that the sins mentioned in James 5:15 and maybe verse 16 were physical sins? I have had a problem with that for years. Did you preach that it meant physical sins when you were a minister?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-58711421593200922182018-03-27T11:06:22.613-07:002018-03-27T11:06:22.613-07:00It is my understanding that the term anoint has tw...It is my understanding that the term anoint has two meanings. One is a ceremonial anointing, the second is medicinal. So James is saying, in effect, "get medical care and pray for the patient." As for "asking whatever you want" and getting it . . . this is a ploy of the prosperity preachers. One thing that they leave it is "the will of God." Even Jesus wanted to have the cup pass from him, but not his will, but God's will be done. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com