tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post2140371968369923551..comments2024-03-28T13:22:17.980-07:00Comments on Banned by HWA! News and Observations About Armstrongism and the Church of God Movement: Dennis On: "If We Are Following the Churches of God, We Are Still Stuck in Them"NO2HWAhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02018654662518613623noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-17843505801642480882012-07-16T13:08:05.462-07:002012-07-16T13:08:05.462-07:00Thanks, Paul R.
I definitely would appreciate som...Thanks, Paul R.<br /><br />I definitely would appreciate some reading suggestions from Dennis, or anyone else, about the origins of the Bible. I did do some reading about it many years ago, and want to do it again.<br /><br />I've recently read a couple of Bart Ehrman's book about the NT, and I'm looking forward to reading much more about it.<br /><br />Brenda (Meighen) RussellAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-8205495054055128692012-07-16T07:53:48.384-07:002012-07-16T07:53:48.384-07:00Brenda,
Dennis can point you in the right directi...Brenda,<br /><br />Dennis can point you in the right direction regarding the origins of the Bible.<br /><br />Paul R.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-37589710400338176722012-07-15T21:43:04.022-07:002012-07-15T21:43:04.022-07:00I think the issue is bigger that the COG's, it...I think the issue is bigger that the COG's, it is the basic emptiness inside us (all of us? many of us?, I don't know). Don't know for sure if there is a God, if there is I hope he is nice and kind. Why would he make people like us with all our problems and weaknesses and then be angry at us for being weak and having problems? I think Marx was right about religions being the opiate of the people, but then communism was no better, and I guess real opium is worse. Nothing like religion (mass deception) to bring people together and give you friends -- then when it is gone it's kind of hard to start developing social skills outside of shared membership in an alienated group. Don't know the answers, but then who does? Chins up though it can be fun.lostchildnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-84391354625978408862012-07-15T19:27:09.474-07:002012-07-15T19:27:09.474-07:00It's been 26 years since I left WCG. (My fath...It's been 26 years since I left WCG. (My father is in one of the very tiny splinters.) I still find myself feeling angry, and bitter, and mocking sometimes.<br /><br />When I left, I checked out the Humanists for awhile, then New Age churches for awhile, and then I lost interest.<br /><br />I've decided that since I choose to longer believe in the Bible, I can't just do it for emotional reasons. I need to know what it really is, how it came into existence, etc. I did a lot of reading about it several years ago, then lost interest. Now I'm back to strongly wanting to learn as much as I can about it.<br /><br />Brenda (Meighen) RussellAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-84470486007400536502012-07-12T21:16:05.779-07:002012-07-12T21:16:05.779-07:00Anon,
I understand what you are saying and would ...Anon,<br /><br />I understand what you are saying and would agree with you expect for one thing- as an atheist, I have no world-view to uphold. I don't have to defend my unbelief- I simply base my worldview on the available evidence. A believer, on the other hand, has to continually battle the evidence (evolution) and the lack of evidence (for a supernatural realm). They kick against the goads of reality. It is a battle, one that I do not have to fight. <br /><br />This isn't politics, where you may be a liberal and I the conservative, who choose to view the "evidence" in totally different lights. This is fact vs superstition. <br /><br />And I will say this again. I love fiction. I love spooky stories. I would love to find that there is a supernatural world. As a scientist, I would love to find out that there is a god so some sorts. It would blow my mind. But as a scientist, I apply the same criteria to science as to the existence of God. If there is no evidence, I can't believe. Sorry. It's not that I don't want to, it's just that I can't without any evidence. And according to the Bible, God has always left credible evidence- supernatural miracles. Just none to be seen these last 2,000 years. Sorry.<br /><br />Paul R.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-28723932958187547972012-07-12T21:05:06.606-07:002012-07-12T21:05:06.606-07:00Mish Mash,
I am a rabid atheist. Unapologetic. Bu...Mish Mash,<br /><br />I am a rabid atheist. Unapologetic. But if you choose to seek God, you need to look elsewhere than the Churches of God. They are the modern, literal equivalent of the Pharisees. Whitewashed tombs and all that. They bring forth nothing but dust and dry misery. There is no joy to be found there. <br /><br />I would suggest joining a local mainstream Christian church, preferably non-denominational. You will be surprised at how "nice" Christians are- that is, compared to the "Christians" of the COG's. They will be willing to help you find God, if that is what you want to find. You may find a home there. If you choose to further question the whole question of God, mainstream Christianity is a good way station to sit and catch your breath. But for Thor's sake, GET OUT OF THE CHURCHES OF GOD. They will suck all the joy out of you. Leave now, while you have your faculties about you. <br /><br />Cheers,<br />Paul R.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-84081827215478427422012-07-12T20:08:54.344-07:002012-07-12T20:08:54.344-07:00Dennis,
Thanks for your insights. This is exactl...Dennis, <br />Thanks for your insights. This is exactly how I feel. The churches disgust me but I still can't stop feeling like they control me. I guess everything that they have done still isn't enough. I am still looking for that one big "folly" so I can finally say to myself, "this isn't God's true church" and stop feeling that I'm cursed because I don't go anymore. Seriously, I fear all my current problems are because I'm being punished for leaving. I still go to services on Sabbath, but with messianic jews. They are ok, but, I still feel like something is shadowing me and won't let me go. I want to feel free and that God is ok with me. I don't feel that. If I think about going back, it would be hypocritical and I would hate it. So why would I do that just to feel the shadow lifted from my back? I mean really, there are tona of loyal COG people who have problems and tragedies. I don't want to think God is singaling me out. I'm so confused. Every time I go through difficulties, I have set myself up to think I'm being punished. Why can't I just feel like I'm ok? I guess I'm not alone with 53 comments on this article !Mish-Mashnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-41608567069375776262012-07-12T19:33:59.845-07:002012-07-12T19:33:59.845-07:00To the comment directly above: This is a major le...To the comment directly above: This is a major league cop-out. One of the most outrageous I've ever read and intellectually dishonest. Show me the evidence and I will believe. Otherwise, you got nothin.' Go ahead, you can admit it, but stop pretending that there's something there. It's like what Gertrude Stein said of her native city of Oakland, CA., "There's no "there" there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-67456731370174629572012-07-12T18:54:14.197-07:002012-07-12T18:54:14.197-07:00@Paul
It could be put simply as this, i.e. a thei...@Paul<br /><br />It could be put simply as this, i.e. a theist chooses to believe in the existence of a Supreme Being (or God) and as a consequence sees abundant evidence everywhere that is acceptable to him/her as proof of His/Her existence. An atheist, on the other hand, chooses to believe no Supreme Being (or God) exists and as a consequence sees no evidence anywhere that is acceptable to him/her to prove His/Her existence. Thus, to the theist the existence of God is proven, but to an atheist His/Her existence remains unproven. Boiled down to the essentials both worldviews are a matter of choice and faith. And both interpret the evidence accordingly i.e. in accord with their chosen belief-system.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-75895491573980314092012-07-12T11:32:21.289-07:002012-07-12T11:32:21.289-07:00Personally, I think that before Dennis can post ag...Personally, I think that before Dennis can post again, he should demonstrate that he can solve a Rubik's cube in less than 41 seconds. <br /><br />~<i>Another Holy-Spirit inspired comment by Norm</i>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-3179136432250279122012-07-12T10:09:27.898-07:002012-07-12T10:09:27.898-07:00Dennis,
I also would like to see an increase in a...Dennis,<br /><br />I also would like to see an increase in agnosticism in your posts; a 7% increase would do nicely. <br /><br /><br />Thanks,<br />Paul R.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-9337496988485344902012-07-12T07:22:22.243-07:002012-07-12T07:22:22.243-07:00Someone said: "However, at my risk of again b...Someone said: "However, at my risk of again being banned by Banned by HWA, I wonder if you would consider not trying to "help" people with your musings and advice? Perhaps, since that was your WCG role, it's not your eternal strong suit, and healing blossoms from the death of that function. On the other hand, perhaps I'm the kwazy one for perceiving a COG tinge to everything you write. "<br /><br />Well that's an interesting comment and recommendation. That might workDennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-74539551336140176002012-07-12T07:07:01.821-07:002012-07-12T07:07:01.821-07:00"Beside do you have any evidence that a soul/..."Beside do you have any evidence that a soul/spirit/supernatural realm does not exist?"<br /><br />No, Anon, I don't have any evidence that disproves that a soul/spirit/supernatural realm exists. Nor do I have evidence that disproves the existence of leprechauns, unicorns, purple dragons, hobbits, elves, orcs, fairies, Allah, Thor, Jupiter, Zeus, Darth Vader, and an honest politician. <br /><br />Since I can't disprove the existence of Thor, should I therefore believe in his existence? Of course not. Neither do you- except when it comes to your own personal god/supernatural being. <br /><br />Look, it's pretty simple. When a person makes a claim to the existence of something that no one has ever seen (except in ancient religious tomes and Televangelists) the proof is on them to provide evidence to support their claim. This is how we humans discover what is true and what isn't. To try to throw the ball back in my court suggests that you aren't willing to carefully consider the question, or more likely, you know very well that there isn't any evidence but refuse to man up and admit it.<br /><br />Your very existence, like the existence of a beetle, or an elephant, is not proof of a supernatural realm. A thousand years ago when most of humanity lived in absolute and squalid ignorance, your point would be accepted. But not anymore. If you are feeling courageous, I would suggest Don Prothero's easy to understand "Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters." <br /><br /><br />Paul R.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-85409601276881589812012-07-12T01:50:36.390-07:002012-07-12T01:50:36.390-07:00Paul said: "Do you have any evidence that the...Paul said: "Do you have any evidence that there is a soul/spirit/supernatural realm?" <br /><br />IMHO Paul the fact that I'm alive alone to me is evidence enough. And looking around me everything is supernatural and proof of a supernatural creator. <br /><br />Nevertheless what about the evidence of OBE and NDE? IMHO such anecdotes suggest another, indeed supernatural or spiritual dimension that cannot be measured in physical terms. <br /><br />Beside do you have any evidence that a soul/spirit/supernatural realm does not exist?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-623262822087447412012-07-11T19:33:09.466-07:002012-07-11T19:33:09.466-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Byker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602697337552385535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-24483781752438557252012-07-11T19:25:32.930-07:002012-07-11T19:25:32.930-07:00Dear Sensitive, Not-a-Dick Dennis,
Thanks for sha...Dear Sensitive, Not-a-Dick Dennis,<br /><br />Thanks for sharing your heart; I agree with much of what you wrote.<br /><br />The last time I felt a bit of connection to WCG was on my wedding day. Then, when the babies started popping out I never had a minute or inclination to look back at it. <br /><br />Recently, when trying to rescue my brother, who returned to COG vomit after several years of freedom, I was shocked to discover all these sites filled with people with yet fresh wounds. <br /><br />I imagine there are plenty of Diehl babies popping up too - from another generation. <br /><br />Grandfather must be one of the coolest roles ever invented, or ever to evolve - I hope you enjoy every minute of it. I wish you many fulfilling hours of playing, laughing, and caring for your family.<br /><br />While deep within the embrace of loving family, I hope you'll contiue contemplating your dear deep thoughts. You're correct about love being sole reality, while all else pales as illusion. Your gifts are truly love, humor, and caring.<br /><br />However, at my risk of again being banned by Banned by HWA, I wonder if you would consider not trying to "help" people with your musings and advice? Perhaps, since that was your WCG role, it's not your eternal strong suit, and healing blossoms from the death of that function. On the other hand, perhaps I'm the kwazy one for perceiving a COG tinge to everything you write. <br /><br />May your exploring of the reality of love forever bring fresh delights.Urim and Thummimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-76914832745284598172012-07-11T15:00:59.098-07:002012-07-11T15:00:59.098-07:00Albert,
Thanks for your answer. You could save y...Albert,<br /><br /><br />Thanks for your answer. You could save yourself some time by simply replying "No." <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Paul R.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-42813245719219116802012-07-11T14:47:15.551-07:002012-07-11T14:47:15.551-07:00Paul said: “Do you have any evidence that there is...Paul said: “Do you have any evidence that there is a soul/spirit/supernatural realm?”<br /><br />My Reply: Do you have any evidence that soul/spirit/supernatural realm doesn’t exist? <br />I am not really trying to prove anything. What I pointed out was the fact that in time and space everything that has ever existed historically still exists in the time and place existed. As far as I know traveling back and forth in eternity is a mental activity and not a physical activity.<br />I could ask a lot of questions, but will only ask this one. Was information in existence before a person’s awareness of it or did the person create the information when they became aware of it?<br /><br />Albert B.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-23670855101541151392012-07-11T13:20:50.332-07:002012-07-11T13:20:50.332-07:00@ Paul Ray
"Do you have any evidence that th...<b>@ Paul Ray</b><br /><br />"<i>Do you have any evidence that there is a soul/spirit/supernatural realm?</i>"<br /><br />He'd be the first.Jacenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-81392772598282976842012-07-11T13:08:57.138-07:002012-07-11T13:08:57.138-07:00Albert,
Do you have any evidence that there is a ...Albert,<br /><br />Do you have any evidence that there is a soul/spirit/supernatural realm? <br /><br /><br />Paul R.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-12802041813023840732012-07-11T12:12:30.714-07:002012-07-11T12:12:30.714-07:00Paul said: “Hmmm. Still not connecting here. Could...Paul said: “Hmmm. Still not connecting here. Could you elaborate a bit? Are we dancing around the word "soul" or "spirit" here?” <br /><br />My reply: Yes and No. The concept of soul or spirit is built on this truth, but the idea of soul or spirit envisions the mind and body into two separate entities. I recognize that the mind doesn’t function without a body, but it is what is in the mind that separates us from all other living beings (other humans included). It is the content of the mind that makes who we really are. A body that has no human mind is not a human being. It is what is recorded in the mind that makes us the person we think we are no matter what body we have. My point is that using time and space as a standard who and what we are can never be undone, it is just a matter of when in time and where in the universe our existence took place.<br />In some ways this principle is what has been used to support religious teachings. When the belief in an eternally existing God that is not subject to time and space is factored into this obvious fact it justifies the idea of God giving a person experiencing human life the capability of being at another place in the universe at a different time in the span of eternity. I am not saying this is true or false. I was simply pointing to this as some of the philosophical ideas that have been instrumental in building Christianity. <br /><br />That is best I can do to explain what my use of the immaterial side of life. <br /><br />Albert B.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-29266483511576251912012-07-11T09:53:15.532-07:002012-07-11T09:53:15.532-07:00Does "immaterial" mean "supernatura...Does "immaterial" mean "supernatural?" I no longer accept supernatural explanations for phenomena that aren't (yet) fully understood or explained. I suspect that everything going on between our ears is completely physical. I accept that the science will not be complete in this area during my lifetime, but still don't feel the need to appeal to supernatural explanations. HWA posited "the spirit in man" theory/doctrine. Related to another post here, I had heard it said that this was his only original doctrine. Hah! The various gnostic churches beat him to that and even managed to get some of their ideas into the NT through the redacted (by catholics) letters of Paul. Getting this church out my head has meant filling it with something other than the supernatural.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-13979040654129685662012-07-11T07:17:12.566-07:002012-07-11T07:17:12.566-07:00"....having no material body or form and I us..."....having no material body or form and I used it as relating to what goes on in the mind."<br /><br /><br />Hmmm. Still not connecting here. Could you elaborate a bit? Are we dancing around the word "soul" or "spirit" here?<br /><br />Paul R.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-56430377027691222712012-07-11T06:19:34.690-07:002012-07-11T06:19:34.690-07:00Anon said: I too would like an answer to this ques...Anon said: I too would like an answer to this question. Just what is the immaterial side of humanity?<br /><br />AB Reply: Immaterial by definition means – having no material body or form and I used it as relating to what goes on in the mind. We may not think about this as being separate from our body or form, but it is as real as our body or form. There is a continual activity the goes on in the mind that makes us different from any other human being. I see it as the real person that is known only to the individual and what has been defined as God. I have had people say they know me better than I know myself, but I disagree since they do not know what goes on in my mind. Other people must judge by my actions and the words I choose to share with them.<br /><br />I have given this a lot of consideration in recent years and have related it to time and space by considering that everything we think will always exist at the particular point of happening, whether there it has been recorded or not. That which is recorded exists as long as the records exist, but as long as the time is used as a standard nothing can be truly be non existent whether we can retrieve it or not.<br /><br />At least this is the way I look at things.<br />Albert B.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-84561010100934757932012-07-11T04:44:36.053-07:002012-07-11T04:44:36.053-07:00Anonymous said...
"Thank you for everything w...Anonymous said...<br />"Thank you for everything written here. The article and comments have shown me that being a reasoning, questioning and searching being is okay<br /><br /><br />Please know your words, all of you, are reaching those seeking their freedom. Those of us still ensnared today are in more trouble than I ever imagined. Thank you."<br /><br />Thank you too...you made my day. If one is going to have an experience, it may as well be a helpful one in the long haul.DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.com