tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post2309858056622764093..comments2024-03-28T22:34:16.707-07:00Comments on Banned by HWA! News and Observations About Armstrongism and the Church of God Movement: Dennis On The Concept of Church of God "Ranks"NO2HWAhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02018654662518613623noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-21323448191889669572013-06-25T08:23:54.565-07:002013-06-25T08:23:54.565-07:00Any number of times, In sermons, HWA would attempt...Any number of times, In sermons, HWA would attempt to shift blame. I recall on several occasions, HWA saying something like: "I never taught that! That is something that some of our younger ministers, in their over enthusiasm have begun.<br /><br />Of course, such backpedaling was bogus, first because the stuff happened on his watch, and secondly, he always ruled with an iron hand, often instantly picking up on the latest micro-trends. Would you believe that he actually shamelessly used that phrase with regard to the setting of the dates 1972 and 1975, after having printed and published "1975 in Prophecy" for all those years?<br />But, to the stalwarts who have allowed him to rise to biblical status, criticizing him becomes like the mockers who falsely accused Jesus during His human lifetime.<br /><br />Despite what he wrote in 1939, and despite the possible origins of the ranking system with Hoeh and Meredith, like a singer singing a song composed by another, HWA made government from the top down his own, and it was one of his most forcefully taught doctrines.<br /><br />BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602697337552385535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-16114024614088466042013-06-25T07:08:25.877-07:002013-06-25T07:08:25.877-07:00Joe Moeller said, "Smart organizations rotate...Joe Moeller said, "Smart organizations rotate out the bottom 5% of their workforce every year, or reassign them". <br /><br />WCG never removed their pain in the ass minister types, they reASSigned them to other churches to wreak their havoc there for awhile. I spoke up to this ONCE.<br /><br />I learned not to do that. DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-26977847051083617012013-06-25T06:27:14.241-07:002013-06-25T06:27:14.241-07:00Joe Moeller said, "Smart organizations rotate...Joe Moeller said, "Smart organizations rotate out the bottom 5% of their workforce every year, or reassign them". <br /><br />MY COMMENT - Joe, your entire post is right on the mark (but not the "mark" of the beast, LOL). But, your comment above rang true for me personally. I was in management of what was then one of America's fastest growing companies in the early 1980s. In a span that covered 2 decades, my company went from being an $80 Million company to being a $20 Billion company. I can tell you what you said is so true.<br /><br />EVERY organization including WCG has its "dead wood". In my company it was customary to reorganize every so often giving people new assignments or laying off if there was no fit, and doing annual layoffs cutting the bottom 5% - most of which were dead wood or non-performers. It benefitted the entire company and shareholders alike. <br /><br />The only time WCG ever purged itself organizationally was when someone got on the wrong side of HWA, or when a minister was excommunicated out of the Church over doctrine, or in Garner Ted's case moral issues. The first ministers I ever remember being excommunicated from WCG were Bob Lay and Carl O'Bearns (spelling?) in the late 1960s.<br /><br />Richard Lake of Fire Church of Godnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-24019327354013324952013-06-25T04:39:33.310-07:002013-06-25T04:39:33.310-07:00In my experience with ministers in high places who...In my experience with ministers in high places who are really proud of themselves, when confronted, they accuse the humble of being prideful or they would not question them.<br /><br />DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-42246617830776331362013-06-25T03:31:02.317-07:002013-06-25T03:31:02.317-07:00Hey, Junior, Franks, Meredith, Flurry, Pack, Weine...Hey, Junior, Franks, Meredith, Flurry, Pack, Weinerdude, and all of you so-called Council of "Elders" in UCG. I hope you're reading all of this, as well as all of you "local elders, deacons, and deaconesses". You have lied to your congregations for years, and I'm sure some of you actually believe the lie. But, it's hard to face the truth and give up your positions and/or paychecks, isn't it?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07190072973897851057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-83177590554454497432013-06-24T23:01:32.957-07:002013-06-24T23:01:32.957-07:00Ephesians 4 was mentioned. This verse was one of ...Ephesians 4 was mentioned. This verse was one of the foundational scriptures that Herman Hoeh used when he and Rod Meredith started instituting hierarchical government into WCG in the early 50s. This, in spite of the fact that HWA stated in 1939 very accurately, strongly, and correctly that there is no centralized government authorized in the New Testament.<br>Hoeh read the KJV, which has Eph 4:12 wrong. Why are the church leaders to equip the saints? "For the work of the ministry." So, Hoeh taught that the main purpose of the saints was to support the work HWA was doing. Problem is, this is a wrong translation. "Ministry" really means "service", and there is no word "the" in verse 12. This more accurately reads "for works of service". In other words, this verse is not about the purpose of the saints being to support the work of the church leaders, no, just the opposite. it is the purpose of the church leaders to support the work of the saints. And power-hungry, deceiving and deceived one-man rulers are still with us today.NO2RCMnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-42066051662357541842013-06-24T18:33:24.301-07:002013-06-24T18:33:24.301-07:00Yeah, "ranks", the Lemmings lead the way...Yeah, "ranks", the Lemmings lead the way over the cliff. The rats who put them up to it did alright, didn't they? Everybody ended up broke at the bottom of the cliff...except them, of course.<br /><br />But, you know, when you're dealing with a God who says, "love me or I will kill you in fire", what can you expect from his minions?Corkyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15894537940881776504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-53066848921543047312013-06-24T16:31:38.478-07:002013-06-24T16:31:38.478-07:00Why should the servants receive the paychecks when...Why should the servants receive the paychecks when all the rest of us did things for free? Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07190072973897851057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-13580234100882898492013-06-24T15:45:01.335-07:002013-06-24T15:45:01.335-07:00Im not giving up my title for anyone!...
...PASTO...Im not giving up my title for anyone!...<br /><br />...PASTOR BUCK PRIVATE! <br /><br />In all seriousness, this "once ordained, always ordained" rank system is lacking. <br /><br />Tell me what job on the planet is permanent and without review? Even corporate CEOs are accountable to a board and if the profits are down, well, ... out the door. <br /><br />Ministry is UNDER the brethren! They are "servants" the same as the guy who mows your lawn, or cleans your pool! <br /><br />Servants are to be asking the served on how to do it! This is common sense isnt it? Yet how many ministers , of any faith, are asking their audience on what they truly need? <br /><br />Rare would be the church that had regular reviews, from the brethren they serve, with mathematical survey forms and feedback mechanisms. Smart organizations rotate out the bottom 5% of their workforce every year, or reassign them. Some people just dont cut it in their occupations. <br /><br />How much leaner and diligent would the ministry be if they had to be subject to PEER REVIEW from the very own brethren that they serve?<br /><br />This would not have to involve doctrinal compromising or the like either. Come on ministry, man up and face your customers. <br /><br />More traditional churches have local boards who provide this type of feedback and cleansing mechanisms. Anyone beyond accountability for their work performance will suffer from the temptation of coasting, or becoming comfortable or authoritarian. <br /><br />Joe Moeller <br />Cody, WY Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08762918803284340960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-62515954703454026162013-06-24T15:39:48.804-07:002013-06-24T15:39:48.804-07:00"Well, who the hell talks to god then?!"..."<i>Well, who the hell talks to god then</i>?!"<br /><br />Nobody. And that's all there ever was to it. HWA was the Great and Powerful Wizard of COG. He wasn't talking to anyone but the bank teller, with a great big smile on his face.Head Ushernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-56363869060351369292013-06-24T12:38:27.048-07:002013-06-24T12:38:27.048-07:00Eph 4:11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, s...Eph 4:11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be evangelists . . pastors and teachers. My understanding is not that these are ranks, higher to lower, but rather referring to sequence. Apostles go first, to scout out the area, evangelists to spread the Gospel, pastors to care for the new believers. Jesus is the head of the church with apostles, evangelists, etc. side by side, not one above the other.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-13839954538797982082013-06-24T11:52:06.915-07:002013-06-24T11:52:06.915-07:00Steve wondered: only "pastors" talk to...Steve wondered: only "pastors" talk to "pastors". Well, who the hell talks to god then?!<br /><br />June 24, 2013 at 11:04 AM<br /><br /><br />Steve...<br />"Ye are gods" so ye get to talk to God anytime you want!DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-69383628529975031702013-06-24T11:04:15.047-07:002013-06-24T11:04:15.047-07:00I remember a local "elder" coming to me ...I remember a local "elder" coming to me and scvolding me for calling Jim Franks on the phone instead of letting my "pastor" call him. I was told by the "pastor" via the local "elder" that only "pastors" talk to "pastors". Well, who the hell talks to god then?!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07190072973897851057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-34775549725915574262013-06-24T10:31:11.571-07:002013-06-24T10:31:11.571-07:00And Dennis, you missed between "Deaconesses,&...And Dennis, you missed between "Deaconesses," and "Husbands" the "Head Usher" and the lowly "Regular Ushers" who I get to trounce all over with mah authoritah!<br /><br />Yeah, I've come to accept that Herbert was determined to be a captain of industry, the CEO of an important American corporation. What could be a more important industry than the god industry? And how could he possibly be more important than to speak for god himself? Herb wasn't building a "church" so much as he was building a corporation. Well, unless you think of "church" in totally pejorative terms. Which I do.Head Ushernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-50157843804029675362013-06-24T09:34:43.706-07:002013-06-24T09:34:43.706-07:00How dare dost thou attack ranks? Without ranks, my...How dare dost thou attack ranks? Without ranks, my title of Assistant Deacon has no meaning! I am reporting you, Dennis -- to the deacon, of course, so that he can take it to the local elder, who can take it to the preaching elder, who can take it to the pastor (rank), who can report it to the evangelists, who can take it to the pastor general himself. <br /><br />But don't doubt for a minute that you will be found out. For, as an assistant deacon (complete with arm band), I am temporarily given POWER and OFFICE to do this. Besides, I am destined to be a deacon in no time. Imagine: At long last, I'll be able to put all those pathetic ushers, greeters, song leaders and prayer-givers in their place. And then...can local elder be far behind? And then preaching elder? And then....<br /><br />As a <i>former</i> minister, Dennis, you are no longer qualified to even straighten my arm band.Assistant Deaconnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-37087187279263142232013-06-24T08:36:21.950-07:002013-06-24T08:36:21.950-07:00Yeah. Nail, meet head, once again. This ridiculo...Yeah. Nail, meet head, once again. This ridiculous ranking system, assumed to be carried forward into the kingdom, was another example of extrabiblical teaching, exemplified the arrogance and vanity of those so ranked, and was by definition intimidating. Meredith was saying that same stuff in our First Year Bible Class, as well, thus making himself and his colleagues into a modern version of the Boanerges brothers, only even entertaining such a comparison back then would have been thought to be rebellion in the extreme!<br /><br />BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602697337552385535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-66494257492401051462013-06-24T08:19:22.904-07:002013-06-24T08:19:22.904-07:00Yes! An article from Dennis I completely agree wit...Yes! An article from Dennis I completely agree with :)<br /><br />Rank has always been a problem in the church. The biggest problem with rank is how it promotes ego instead of promoting service. Jesus said the ministers are to serve. Rank says ministers are to be served. The New Testament doesn't use offices as a matter of authority and rank. It uses offices based on what they are gifted to do best. <br /><br />The churches of God have abused rank as a power structure not based on their ability, but based on their authority. This is why there were preachers who had no idea how to preach. Evangelists who never evangelized a day in their life. Pastors with no qualifications to actually pastor. And the list goes on and on. <br /><br />Rank did nothing but promote abuse within the churches of God. The scriptures you stated you grew up with are the proper example. Rank promotes power trips, ego, the desire to be served, and not to serve. Rank promotes everything nasty and everything un-Christian. The hierarchical government model is actually military-like in war, not servant-like in peace. <br /><br />I don't give a rat's booty about rank. You know them by their fruits, not their self-imposed title. You're right. They ordained elders at 23 and 24. I agree with your bahaha. 23 and 24 year olds have no experience, and know nothing. They had no business pastoring a congregation. I don't know what the church was thinking at that time. <br /><br />Good post, Dennis. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com