tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post3166078195807898965..comments2024-03-28T05:00:51.911-07:00Comments on Banned by HWA! News and Observations About Armstrongism and the Church of God Movement: Dennis Muses on Caution with those voices.NO2HWAhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02018654662518613623noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-33062826363738567512013-10-15T10:25:36.166-07:002013-10-15T10:25:36.166-07:00I know what you mean about King Saul. It's pos...I know what you mean about King Saul. It's possible to interpret what the bible says in terms Saul being a catch-22 victim of the deity's Monday Morning Quarterbacking. The same thing happens in the military. If you're given an unlawful order, there are two ways to proceed, and both present risks to the subordinate. Either you can choose to think for yourself, and disobey an order, which tendency it is practically the sole purpose of boot camp to whip out of you. Or you can leave the ol' thinking cap turned off and follow the chain of command (definitely the less risky choice). And this is what Yahweh wanted of Saul. Except for when he didn't. Yahweh can getcha comin' and goin', so, I guess you don't want to not have divine favor. This only goes to show the capriciousness of the gods. You always know they're testing you, but you never know what they're testing you on. Contrast this with David, who did have divine favor, for whom the Monday Morning Quarterbacking worked in his favor. David could do anything he wanted and still be "a man after god's own heart," whatever that means. In fact, when David did screw up, Yahweh punished everyone except David, as if that made any sense. The moral of the story? Don't not have divine favor, whatever that means.<br /><br />As far as Dave Pack and theophany goes, people hearing "literal voices," is hardly something restricted to the Judeo-Xian tradition. The word theophany is a Greek word and was used to refer to the manifestations of Greek gods to their followers. The Delphic oracle, who was thought to channel Apollo, is a good example of pagan theophany, and not coincidentally, the Delphians held an annual festival called <i>Theophanies</i> to celebrate the return of Apollo in the spring.<br /><br />A couple years back on <a href="http://www.radiolab.org/story/301424-voices-inside-you/" rel="nofollow">Radiolab</a> they asked the rather insightful question, since we all hear an internal voice we attribute to ourselves, might it be possible that hearing other internal voices might just be a misattribution of our own internal voice to an external source? If one were to seriously believe that he's hearing an internal voice that is not, in fact, merely his own voice, why is it that god never appears or talks audibly to believers or groups of believers? Why is theophany always private and subjective, not just for Yahweh, but also for all the pagan gods too? Why do all gods behave as though they are all restricted by the same set of rules?Head Ushernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-16965555019091313722013-10-15T09:21:05.078-07:002013-10-15T09:21:05.078-07:00Well I will tell you a story about voices in the h...Well I will tell you a story about voices in the head. My whole family followed my father into the church in the 1960's, except for my mother who hated it. She was schizophrenic. As a child I always thought the church had driven her mad, but as everyone said she was always weird, it just got worse when the rest of the family joined an American religion and my dad started sending them a lot of money. Ministers came around to the house and my mother would start railing and yelling and insulting them, they said she was demon possessed. I guess she was just doing what later many of us wanting to do when we saw a minister. <br /><br />Not to deny she was seriously mentally ill. She told us all kinds of weird stories about what the voices in her head said, most of them were harmless and silly, but I did wonder when she informed us that men would go to the moon, whereas the church said they would never get there. She also told me I would leave the church when I was an adult, and I did at age 21.<br /><br />I should add, she despite being mentally ill and ending up catatonic in a mental hospital was the only one in our family who saw the truth about WCG. The ministers said it was demons who were telling her to attack the church. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-78229621754625286702013-10-15T09:13:22.009-07:002013-10-15T09:13:22.009-07:00Anonymous, is Daniel Ekechukwu a fraud?Anonymous, is Daniel Ekechukwu a fraud?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-53892515089578989102013-10-15T08:03:27.616-07:002013-10-15T08:03:27.616-07:00It is important to listen to those voices in your ...It is important to listen to those voices in your head so you can <a href="https://rational.org/index.php?id=1" rel="nofollow">overcome your addictions</a>, particularly those which involve the belief in British Israelism which is rather pernicious and difficult to eradicate (every news headline seems to bring the addiction right back again).<br /><br />The secret to AVRT is to listen to the voices in your head and then tell them <b>NO</b>!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-35960304296190279972013-10-15T05:08:02.084-07:002013-10-15T05:08:02.084-07:00Good points, anonymous 2:04! Especially since the...Good points, anonymous 2:04! Especially since the only kinds of prophets coming forward in the Armstrong movement seem to suffer from prophetic dyslexia! Now they don't make obvious dyslexic statements such as, "Dog tells us that in the nest 5-3 years leading up to the Minellium...." No, in their cases, timelines, races of people, history and prophecy, personal titles, and disasters become obscured and garbled as they are processed by their minds, rather than numbers and letters. The only things about which they do not get confused seem to be who is in charge, and where to send the money.<br /><br />BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602697337552385535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-33720384668306934602013-10-14T14:04:19.588-07:002013-10-14T14:04:19.588-07:00I still favor a Deity that can actually show up in...I still favor a Deity that can actually show up in person, prove Deityship and talk directly to people without the feeling it is halloween. God in the Bible tends to speak to individuals and it is the individuals that tell us "God saith to me..." That's cheating and not a credible contact. Whenever there is said to be a group encounterr there is confusion over just what happened . <br /><br />Telling a story about a theophany is not good enough for belief in that storyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-49788244052801920852013-10-14T12:10:04.382-07:002013-10-14T12:10:04.382-07:00Ha!
I've had interactions with a variety of C...Ha!<br /><br />I've had interactions with a variety of Christians who have put forth as 'FACTS' things which are nutty, such as someone claiming people had been raised from the dead recently. <br /><br />Of course, no proof was offered other than "I believe it because people in my megachurch told me", and "The mainstream press ignored it so it MUST be true!"<br /><br />People thinking they have the "Holy Spirit" would do well to second-guess what they think the "Holy Spirit" is confirming for them, whether the leader of their church is David C Pack or some head of a megachurch.<br /><br />The fraud Todd Bentley even claimed that many many people at his 'Lakeland Revival' in Florida had been raised from the dead.<br /><br />What's totally crazy about that, is the fact that some people think the "Holy Spirit" has confirmed it as true for them, so they repeat the lies!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-75784846987052099022013-10-14T11:58:52.092-07:002013-10-14T11:58:52.092-07:00Somehow I doubt that they heard any voices in thei...Somehow I doubt that they heard any voices in their heads. I have this sneaking suspicion that their words were well thought out according with their various agendas.<br /><br />Of course, everything has been redacted and edited and the NT has been edited and rewritten so many times that it reached the point of complete obscuration by mid second century.<br /><br />There can no sense be made of the complete mass of confusion that is called the bible. That there are those who believe they can is evidenced by the 40,000 different sects of Christendom. That's the religion where one theory is about as good (or bad) as another.Corkyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15894537940881776504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-54821880690458795702013-10-14T08:44:30.645-07:002013-10-14T08:44:30.645-07:00Hypothetically speaking, if God, or if Jesus Chris...Hypothetically speaking, if God, or if Jesus Christ were to speak directly to someone, the only way in which an individual could verify that would be that what was said came to pass, or ended up being 100% true, without equivocation. Otherwise, it probably would be time for the "prophet" or messenger to check himself into the hospital for observation. The problem or "check valve" being, that the prevailing odds today are in favor of mental illnesses causing audible "spiritual" voices. There would need to be something phenomenal to distinguish a specific hearing of voices from some sort of garden variety psychotic break.<br /><br />Taking it to the next level, is the credibility issue. The person, once again, hypothetically hearing the voices of the deity, would need to be a person who 1) was capable of understanding the voices, and 2) could accurately and faithfully represent what the voices had said without making his own additions or subtractions, and 3) the individual would simply be the messenger, not manipulating or exploiting whatever the situation might be to his own benefit or advantage.<br /><br />Even if we leave open the possibility of God speaking to someone, David C. Pack fails any litmus test which could be applied. He is known to exaggerate. By his own words, he misunderstands or is slow to understand. He is not known for his compassion; does not suffer on behalf of the victims of his "interpretations". He has not set admirable examples of personal repentance, in fact he has met attempts to critique or correct him with indignance, and statements of self-righteousness. He lacks the humility necessary to be a servant of God, or of Jesus Christ. In fact, if he were to read these words, his reaction would be most likely be anger, not even momentary introspection. <br /><br />The fact is that huge churches have been planted, have grown phenomenally, and are positively impacting the communities in which they are located without the leadership claiming that they are specifically referred to by obscure passages in the Bible, without someone claiming to have heard voices, and without someone taking on Biblical titles such as "apostle" or "prophet". <br /><br />The fruits are evidenced by these churches for all the community to see, campusses are built, and the membership gives back to and serves the community. The leaders are bold in the right ways, and humble in the right ways, appropriate using God as the reference point, not arrogant, prone to exaggerate "self". These churches are rejected by certain ones who use Herbert W. Armstrong, or the metaArmstrongism of the splinters as the sole litmus test as to whether they are of God. <br /><br />It seems obvious that so long as a pastor preaches perhaps 90% of the core of Armstrongism, a non-growing group of brainwashed individuals will give him a pass on all manner of ridiculous or irrational behavioral patterns, and will support him financially, even to their personal detriment. The arrogance in that is that the teachers know it and exploit it. <br /><br />BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602697337552385535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-8658173884815113282013-10-14T07:54:37.491-07:002013-10-14T07:54:37.491-07:00Would love to know what Pack would do when the voi...Would love to know what Pack would do when the voice in his head says the classical paradoxical statement: <br /><br />"EVERYTHING I SAY IS A LIE"! <br /><br />Joe Moeller<br />Cody, WY Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08762918803284340960noreply@blogger.com