tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post3469979394379357206..comments2024-03-28T05:59:44.118-07:00Comments on Banned by HWA! News and Observations About Armstrongism and the Church of God Movement: Fun Sabbath Facts : An Inconvenient Truth About "Prophesy Comes Alive!"NO2HWAhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02018654662518613623noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-3787634023431042552018-02-01T10:05:40.889-08:002018-02-01T10:05:40.889-08:00It's not Matthew that has misunderstood these ...It's not Matthew that has misunderstood these prophecies, but you have misunderstood them and what he was writing. Matthew did not see them as predictive prophecies, but as typological prophecies. Jesus, in various ways, was the typological fulfillment of these prophecies. Understood thus, Matthew is not wrong, but you are.<br /><br />See http://www.tektonics.org/qt/typola.php and http://christianthinktank.com/typol.html and, if you can, the relevant portions in Craig Blomberg's "The Historical Reliability of the Gospels".Sean Killackeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12629895352944360934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-33812338119026680852018-01-29T07:21:32.659-08:002018-01-29T07:21:32.659-08:00"Bahaha the NT a Roman book, very funny. This..."Bahaha the NT a Roman book, very funny. This books doesn't exactly potray the Roman empire in a good light. Actually Christ was even originally seen as a threat to Roman power not an accomplice."<br /><br /><br />An interesting comment from my perspective.<br /><br />On this blog there are some arguing that HWA was anti - american even communist. While I have fun defending the position that he was a usefull tool within the framework of the American empire, during the Cold War time frame especially as an anti communist warrior.<br /><br /><br />Now to see if the NT can be considered a Roman book, affirming Roman Power and displaying the possibilities of inter empire travel by the roman citizen Paul and the merits of pax romana, the order and legal dispute solving or obedient centurions or if it is an essential anti roman book with clouded references to evil cities on seven hills and marks of the beast that spell like Latinus, that is in the eye of the beholder.<br /><br />At least I have not seen 6 million Italians brought to the gas chambers as condemnation of what they did to christ. No it seems another grouping was adressed as culprit and victim to huge prejudice by christian preaching, while the romans got absolved somehow. No, no widespread persecution of Italians the past 2000 years. <br /><br />I am not going to solve this now. But it is a nice puzzle for me to contemplate just before sleeping. <br /><br />nck<br />nckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580008070423402328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-61018462558469872292018-01-27T17:38:50.205-08:002018-01-27T17:38:50.205-08:00Well, then it would be tubular and a gas if he lea...Well, then it would be tubular and a gas if he learned proper use of quotation marks for a continuing quote involving multiple paragraphs. Each new quoted paragraph is to be started with opening quotation marks. <br /><br />BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602697337552385535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-83007122806007975372018-01-27T11:55:05.099-08:002018-01-27T11:55:05.099-08:00BB, the part in Michael's post about having st...BB, the part in Michael's post about having students comes from the long passage he quoted. It is Bart Ehrman who is a teacher. Maybe Michael is a teacher too, but if so I missed that part.Retired Profnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-23795554095484162732018-01-27T09:43:57.116-08:002018-01-27T09:43:57.116-08:00Reality is that people leaving the ACOGs do turn t...Reality is that people leaving the ACOGs do turn to atheism in significant numbers all by themselves. Not much evangelism from the atheist community is required, because Armstrongism has historically been a major producer of atheists and agnostics. Most “WCG atheists” actually do realize this. If one were to examine all of the posts, one immediately realizes that what really spurs atheists to action is the odd occasional stalwart who attempts to defend Armstrongism against freer methods of thinking. This spawns an onslaught, because each group constitutes an enigma to the other. Neither side can comprehend how the other could possibly hold their views, and ends up pulling their biggest guns. <br /><br />It’s all just an exercise in polarity. + and - poles occur naturally throughout our surrounding universe. Liberals and conservatives indulge in similar battles and have been holding one another in check since the beginning of time. <br /><br />BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602697337552385535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-24970318249235529682018-01-27T08:09:53.228-08:002018-01-27T08:09:53.228-08:00Next time, Michael, read the rest of the paragraph...Next time, Michael, read the rest of the paragraph from which you lift my quote before typing your response. This is not the first time you’ve done this, either. You’re supposed to be some kind of teacher, with students? I feel sorry for them. They’re getting shorted.<br /><br />BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602697337552385535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-46500041081947424912018-01-27T07:03:53.621-08:002018-01-27T07:03:53.621-08:00Final comment:
My intentions were probably more p...Final comment:<br /><br />My intentions were probably more personal here than for everyone. My thinking was simply to study and learn what it was that Embarrassing College, which when I signed up as a Presbyterian kid at 18 for, thought was a legit seminary like the one I turned down to attend in NY. First big mistake. Since it turned out to be wrong plus all the drama and trauma of the Armstrongs and Tkaches, I wanted and still do wish to know what I wasn't taught that I should have been taught. I realize they did not know much about the origin, politic, agenda and problems with the Biblical texts either. They would not have taught it no matter. A legit Seminary would teach it. I never was a mere Bible reader. Anyone can do that an weave a tale that makes them happy and secure. I wanted and still do want to know what the Bible really is. And what it really is, is neither what I was taught as a Presbyterian kid nor a WCG minister. <br /><br />Banned has not proven to be a place where I can pursue Biblical realities and so I will not continue to do that here. <br /><br />I am not one to spin and spend my time bitching and moaning year after year about my WCG experience. I have my moments when certain topics come up but it is not essentially who I am nor the kind of person I wish to be the rest of my life. It was an experience. I chose it, I participated in it and I learned from it though I wish I had gone another direction much earlier in life. Thus..it is what it is. My view is what eats you...eats you, so getting past the drama and trauma of the church is more important to me for a better life now than constant reminders of who did what or how bad it all was. That is waste of good lifetime from my perspective.<br /><br />So I will not continue to assume I could be a theologically stimulating break at times while Gary hunts up the information that does help those still stuck to move out and up of the COG trap. This group don't stimulate! lol. <br /><br />Best wishes to all<br />Den<br />DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-34997816512313203072018-01-27T06:58:42.061-08:002018-01-27T06:58:42.061-08:00Some thoughts on the subject:
http://godcannotbeco...Some thoughts on the subject:<br />http://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2018/01/was-christ-predicted-by-old-testament.htmlMiller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrixhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02865316200703641028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-67221202366918182002018-01-27T05:20:48.635-08:002018-01-27T05:20:48.635-08:00Why didn't the Jews accept Jesus as the Messia...Why didn't the Jews accept Jesus as the Messiah? When you read descriptions of what the Messiah was to accomplish, there are two different descriptions. One describes him in his first appearing, the other, the second. Jews will say that there is not peace in the world. Swords have not been beaten in plowshares, etc. So . . . Jesus was not the Messiah. He came first as the Lamb of God to take away the sins of man. The second time he comes as the Lion of Judah. Lion or Lamb. I have read criticisms of the Bible and alleged contradictions, etc. If your doctor misinterprets the lab results of your blood tests, does that mean that the laboratory equipment was out of calibration or is it your interpretation? If you went to a doctor who was incompetent, does that mean that other doctors should be avoided, also? HWA was wrong on many points. But does that mean that Christianity, properly understood, is wrong? Some C of G members have blinders on and are biased to believe anything that is taught. Those who left the church are at risk of doing the very same thing, accepting any criticism of Christianity and being biased against any defense of it. <br /><br />Steve Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03186651595432665670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-47155101122559356232018-01-27T05:13:59.040-08:002018-01-27T05:13:59.040-08:00Aren't we all a bit anxious about the future? ...Aren't we all a bit anxious about the future? Isn't this one reason why prophecy is so fascinating to many of us. We want to know the future. This is why psychics are popular among some. The "end" can come at anytime for any of us individually. We could drop dead of a heart attack or have a fatal car accident. Or, the world as we know it can end with the return of Jesus. But these end of life possibilities (death or the return of Jesus) shouldn't be the focus of our lives. To make them can prevent us from living as we should. Shouldn't we, whether we are an atheist or a believer, live in the knowledge of our mortality either by death or the return of Jesus? Only the Father knows when Jesus, the bride groom, will return for his bride. So live in expectation but also in the realization that it can be a very long wait. Make the most of it.Steve Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03186651595432665670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-43348261952744884742018-01-27T04:36:23.402-08:002018-01-27T04:36:23.402-08:00Bahaha the NT a Roman book, very funny. This books...Bahaha the NT a Roman book, very funny. This books doesn't exactly potray the Roman empire in a good light. Actually Christ was even originally seen as a threat to Roman power not an accomplice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-85467020618310237672018-01-27T04:25:39.943-08:002018-01-27T04:25:39.943-08:00Frankly, it might be nice if Dennis would post som...Frankly, it might be nice if Dennis would post some sort of "tag" on all the pieces, his and others', that aren't news but in fact are interesting speculative takes on Christian/Bible history. People might well react more appropriately, for example, if Dennis had titled this piece "Dennis Reflects: The Problem with 'Prophecy Comes Alive'".<br /><br />Any true believer, whether an Armstrongite or a Catholic or a New Agey nutter, will sometimes fail to see that there's an over-reach in calling his beliefs "facts" as Dennis did with this article. Frankly, the article presents a lot of good history, some of it indisputable if you take seriously the premises of the scholars who did that historical work. But, especially with a mixed group as found on this blog, that's a big "if". It seems that Dennis didn't consider his audience, which is split among Bibliolaters, Bible-lovers, Bible-skeptics and Bible-rejecters. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-88224751340921602362018-01-26T21:50:05.529-08:002018-01-26T21:50:05.529-08:00Dennis has no agenda? Rubbish. Everyone has an a...Dennis has no agenda? Rubbish. Everyone has an agenda. His goal is to shred any literal interpretation of the bible. What will be left of it then? Not much. And when the bible and all traditional morals are gone human DNA will be fully exposed and the atheists will wish they had invented some gods rather than kill them off. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-38657430448803776672018-01-26T20:59:43.971-08:002018-01-26T20:59:43.971-08:00It was said:
“Christians secure in their faith nev...It was said:<br />“Christians secure in their faith never get upset over reading different theological viewpoints.”<br /><br />This may be true, but for a Christian to be secure in their faith takes a faith in the God that is the source of the biblical writings and their value to the lives of those who choose to use them to be the guide for living the life they been given rather than follow the way the unbelievers view the world. Faith is not faith if it does not recognize that there are supernatural influences that have an effect on our human existence.<br />What puzzles me is why a person that does not accept the biblical writings as a valuable source in revealing a God that is the source of life and gives the hope of an eternal existence; wants to destroy the only source that makes a life of trials and problems whether good or bad worth living. If we look at the positive things in the scriptures we will see that the way of God makes death which comes when this body wears out a little more acceptable. AB <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-195728477618041972018-01-26T20:55:08.608-08:002018-01-26T20:55:08.608-08:00The only prophecy that counts in the end is that o...The only prophecy that counts in the end is that of Nostradumas. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-40101197737575682572018-01-26T20:48:08.781-08:002018-01-26T20:48:08.781-08:00Blah, blah, blah! Another boring article by Dennis...Blah, blah, blah! Another boring article by Dennis Deal. And yes I meant to spell your surname wrong.Rusty Shackelfordnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-6502074696289666082018-01-26T20:38:51.771-08:002018-01-26T20:38:51.771-08:00Like with prophecy as with this website, I take it...Like with prophecy as with this website, I take it all with a grain of salt. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-83405236166982396402018-01-26T20:36:59.421-08:002018-01-26T20:36:59.421-08:00Byker Bob wrote:
"Therefore, there is no pers...Byker Bob wrote:<br />"Therefore, there is no person here on the blog fit to be the new guru, and there is nobody here with sufficient answers"<br /><br />Why does there have to be anything like a "new guru"? That right there is classic Armstrongism, which a lot of us are way past, and just don't see things that way.<br /><br />What's wrong just the exchange of ideas (among equals) but using logic and facts to support one's arguments?. Yes, there will be some good healthy controversy in any discussion worth its salt.Michaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-64885021294075312442018-01-26T20:14:33.312-08:002018-01-26T20:14:33.312-08:00Everyone stop!
Spend a few days doing nothing e...Everyone stop! <br /><br />Spend a few days doing nothing else but studying formal logic. Learn to think. THEN come back here. The logic on here is dismal. Truly dismal. Every time I come here I see more and more than humankind is hopeless. <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-90714117311756585482018-01-26T19:43:53.579-08:002018-01-26T19:43:53.579-08:00For those who have countered that Dennis is just t...For those who have countered that Dennis is just talking out of his wazoo, it might be useful to point out that the very same points are made by Bart Ehrman, a NT scholar who lives and breathes this stuff, and hence should know a lot more about it than any of us laymen.<br /><br />Apologies for a slightly long, but pertinent section from his blog (which parallels very closely the book "Jesus Interrupted"):<br /><br />"In their [Christians] view, the Old Testament makes a number of predictions about the messiah: he would be born in Bethlehem, his mother would be a virgin, he would be a miracle worker, he would be killed for the sins of others, he would be raised from the dead. These are all things that happened to Jesus! How much more obvious could it be? Why in the world don’t those Jews see it? Are they simply hard-headed and rebellious against God? Can’t they *read*? Are they stupid???<br /><br />What is very hard to get my students to see (in most cases I’m, frankly, completely unsuccessful) is that the authors of the New Testament who portrayed Jesus as the messiah are the ones who quoted the Old Testament in order to prove it, and that they were influenced by the Old Testament in what they decided to say about Jesus, and that their views of Jesus affected how they read the Old Testament.<br /><br />The reality is that the so-called “messianic prophecies” that are said to point to Jesus never taken to be messianic prophecies by Jews prior to the Christians who saw Jesus as the messiah. The Old Testament in fact never says that the messiah will be born of a virgin, that he will be executed by his enemies, and that he will be raised from the dead.<br /><br />My students often don’t believe me when I say this, and they point to passages like Isaiah 7:14 (virgin birth) and Isaiah 53 (execution and resurrection). Then I urge them to read the passages carefully and find where there is any reference in them to a messiah. That’s one of the problems (not the only one). These passages are not talking about the messiah. The messiah is never mentioned in them. Anyone who thinks they *are* talking about the messiah, has to import the messiah into the passages, because he simply isn’t there."<br />Michaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-72513301639757897562018-01-26T19:37:38.558-08:002018-01-26T19:37:38.558-08:00Anon 5:34 said:
"Articles like these are the ...Anon 5:34 said:<br />"Articles like these are the kind that makes it easy for the abusive leaders to convince their members to avoid this site. "<br /><br />Um.. Not sure, but I would guess abusive leaders like Pack, Weston and all the rest would tell their members to avoid this site because of the exposes and criticisms against them, which they fear may lead their members to question their authority.<br /><br />That already makes Banned absolutely anathema to them, regardless of the occasional article exposing the mythological and contrived nature of the Bible.Michaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-72065932318490465612018-01-26T18:40:21.540-08:002018-01-26T18:40:21.540-08:005:34 I understand what you're saying. Dennis m...5:34 I understand what you're saying. Dennis may have opinions that could make a doubting COG member doubt that they should ever consider leaving the COG. However, there are myriad perspectives on what Christianity is or should be and what it is not. This blog has numerous resources for those who need to investigate the claims made by the COG. After potentially disproving what the COG teaches, larger questions loom. If what I believed isn't true, then what is truth? Each answers in their own way according to what they believe or purport to believe. <br /><br />If a Christian can't handle arguments from atheists and agnostics or deal with the fact that some answer I don't know, or I don't believe in that God... Then, they really need to expose themselves to something outside the echo chamber. <br /><br />Ideas are only dangerous when they're suppressed. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-12335356213079736802018-01-26T18:29:45.990-08:002018-01-26T18:29:45.990-08:00Let’s get real. A high percentage of all of the w...Let’s get real. A high percentage of all of the written words here is personal opinion, whether the writers choose to identify their words as opinion, or to state and defend them as fact through their own version of apologetics. Almost all of the long term regular writers here have their own Hallelujah chorus, people of somewhat like mind, giving the old “attaboy” to one another every time something resonates on a soul to soul level.<br /><br />The problem is, can any of us trust the opinions of anyone who has ever been influenced and warped by Armstrongism? Remember, Armstrongites patterned their lives after what Herbert W. Armstrong taught. Through our discussions, we are most certainly indulging in cathartic therapy. But, we’ve got to realize that such things as the confirmation bias, and proof-texting, and leaps to conclusion which were imprinted upon us in our Armstrong brainwashing so often still remain, in spite of our repudiation of one unworkable philosophy and the search for or embracement of a more accurate one. Therefore, there is no person here on the blog fit to be the new guru, and there is nobody here with sufficient answers, no one who has it together enough that it would be safe to use them as a pattern for our lives. <br /><br />People post things to others when in reality they are talking to themselves. People unconsciously retain some of the same mannerisms as they had in their previous vocations. People’s personalities rub each other the wrong way. Intelligence is reckoned as conversion once was: the people who agree with one are intelligent, thinking types who are no longer in a box. All others are not. Unfortunately, these are some of the leftovers that all get stirred into the gumbo. <br /><br />So in the face of all of this, what is really important? It’s what we have in common: We are the A.B.A. (Anything But Armstrongism). And, since there are no fit gurus to follow, we’re all on our own individual journeys, which is probably the way it’s supposed to be. We’ve all got to take a deadly, dangerous ride through that long, lonesome valley we call life. And, just because we were once forced to drink tainted milk, that doesn’t mean that there is no such thing as “real” milk! Just gotta find it, instead of that damned ol’ Kool-Aid placebo.<br /><br />BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602697337552385535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-2078001025844960152018-01-26T18:26:40.968-08:002018-01-26T18:26:40.968-08:00Best wishes to all of all persuasions and experien...Best wishes to all of all persuasions and experiences coming out of WCG. Nothing is for nothing...Hangeth in..Dennishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17266112796114131485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-41941862325949641902018-01-26T18:11:47.323-08:002018-01-26T18:11:47.323-08:00You're probably right 534. Wrong topics,thoug...You're probably right 534. Wrong topics,though meant to stimulate while Gary finds the COG stuff,and wrong audience. Dennishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17266112796114131485noreply@blogger.com