tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post5180429792996489065..comments2024-03-28T22:34:16.707-07:00Comments on Banned by HWA! News and Observations About Armstrongism and the Church of God Movement: Growing up in a Faith-Healing CultNO2HWAhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02018654662518613623noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-6685146768214065882011-11-18T20:05:17.102-08:002011-11-18T20:05:17.102-08:00Nowadays, my own perspective is that it's just...<i>Nowadays, my own perspective is that it's just really cool to no longer be spiritually homeless. There are a lot of benefits involved. So, yeah. Why would I change, just because of another person's words or opinions, when I'm actually experiencing such benefits?</i><br /><br />There are many people who converted to Islam while in prison, who would echo those same words.<br /><br />NormAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-61566677208632683512011-11-17T17:35:23.362-08:002011-11-17T17:35:23.362-08:00"Nor do I think that Purple/Aggie/Velvet was ..."Nor do I think that Purple/Aggie/Velvet was either"<br /><br />Yes, she's completely irrational. <i>Cracked</i>. I hope she's reading this. She was an atheist the same way my cat is (especially in the sense of not possessing the faculties to examine the question properly). Take note Bob: a mood swing is not a reasonable basis for atheism.caseywollberghttp://armstrongdelusion.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-6153106842243286082011-11-17T17:22:08.918-08:002011-11-17T17:22:08.918-08:00"We don't have to be guilty of a moral wr..."We don't have to be guilty of a moral wrong for a law of good health to be broken.<br /><br />Even the Messiah said that the blind man was that way so that the wonderful mercy of the Creator could be made manifest."<br /><br />You just killed ten neurons with that nonsense. I can afford the loss, but what are <i>you</i> going to do now?caseywollberghttp://armstrongdelusion.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-85807090977743556702011-11-17T17:18:02.774-08:002011-11-17T17:18:02.774-08:00I like you, Paul Ray. Cogent and accurate comments...I like you, Paul Ray. Cogent and accurate comments.<br /><br />"So, yeah. Why would I change, just because of another person's words or opinions, when I'm actually experiencing such benefits?"<br /><br />Here, BB makes the common theist mistake of presuming that if a belief is comforting then it must be true. <br /><br />Bob, you can't honestly think that comforting beliefs are necessarily factual. So, you must be utilizing this as an intellectual cop-out. You won't go so far as to admit you don't have any support for your beliefs (your propensity for dodging inconvenient arguments is well-known here), but you will say, "[I may not have an answer for your fine argument, but] my beliefs make me feel good; why shouldn't I believe them?" Fine. Believe them if you want to maintain comforting delusions. But you don't get to go around making bald <i>assertions</i> just because they make you warm and fuzzy. <br /><br />If you want anybody to take things you say seriously, you have to support your assertions with reasoning or evidence. Let me show you what I mean: I'm smarter than you. This is analogous in its unsupported assertiveness to your saying, "Divine healing happens all the time," except it is infinitely more plausible. (Plausibility, though, is a concept you are obviously not ready for.)caseywollberghttp://armstrongdelusion.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-1521250203251979422011-11-17T06:39:52.317-08:002011-11-17T06:39:52.317-08:00"It took years, but eventually neither left m..."It took years, but eventually neither left me satisfied."<br /><br />We differ in our interpretation of what lack of belief is. My lack of belief in gods and leprechauns is not a belief system set up to provide some need. It doesn't make me feel satisfied or dissatisfied in the context you are referring to. It's simply reality, like gravity or the taste of bananas.<br /><br />I think that in the case of a believer who has been hurt by past events, pretending to not believe in god or trying to wish away his or her belief in god, is sort of foolish and counterproductive. It would be like me pretending that god is real. <br /><br />Paul RayAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-91681825201289720952011-11-16T23:16:48.167-08:002011-11-16T23:16:48.167-08:00"BB, I don't think you really were an ath...<i>"BB, I don't think you really were an atheist."</i><br /><br />Seconded. <br /><br />Angry at god, perhaps. Given serious consideration/reflection? I suspect not.Jacenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-33364388019374027332011-11-16T20:39:47.871-08:002011-11-16T20:39:47.871-08:00BB, I don't think you really were an atheist. ...BB, I don't think you really were an atheist. Nor do I think that Purple/Aggie/Velvet was either, I wasn't really that surprised when she did a 180.Mike (Don't Drink the Flavor Aid)https://www.blogger.com/profile/15447267814823944883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-59081018797877859372011-11-16T15:04:57.154-08:002011-11-16T15:04:57.154-08:00Well, when I was atheist, my non-belief actually w...Well, when I was atheist, my non-belief actually was a kind of faith. It was faith turned inside out, and/or redirected. Faith that there was nothing there. This is what informed most of my behavior.<br /><br />Basically, that's why I became agnostic. An agnostic admits he doesn't or can't know certain things, and simply does not care. He allows for the possibiliity of God, although does not actively pursue Him. Many agnostics practice the classic Christian ethics, but do this in a secular way.<br /><br />It took years, but eventually neither left me satisfied. There was always somewhat of a void, and accompanying depression. This void and depression were actually preferable to believing in a concept of God in which God was a sort of HWA on steroids. <br /><br />Nowadays, my own perspective is that it's just really cool to no longer be spiritually homeless. There are a lot of benefits involved. So, yeah. Why would I change, just because of another person's words or opinions, when I'm actually experiencing such benefits?<br /><br />BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602697337552385535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-69526664235600832202011-11-16T09:58:56.545-08:002011-11-16T09:58:56.545-08:00God's Power Wanes:
http://whyevolutionistrue....God's Power Wanes:<br /><br />http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2011/11/15/nietzsche-was-close/seonw/<br /><br />Paul RayAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-82113476144854925402011-11-16T08:01:40.149-08:002011-11-16T08:01:40.149-08:00Some comments here make me think that untreated ea...Some comments here make me think that untreated ear infections children were a common result of people following the HWA healing doctrine(with spectre of the Lake of Fire dangling above them to 'treat' them how 'God's Apostle HWA' decreed).<br /><br />My sister came close to death from an ear infection, and a good friend (also from WCG) suffered permanent hearing loss from an ear infection.<br /><br />And those examples are besides other things like-<br />My mom had cancer, and our family would spend hours gathered around her bed praying for her.<br />(Because we 'knew' the Truth.)<br />Finally, it got to the point where she was screaming loudly in pain, and my father couldn't take it any more; he broke down and took her to a hospital where she had surgery and recovered.<br /><br />Several years earlier, my parents had "joined the church", and my father got a different job because of the Sabbath issue. When it was time for his medical insurance to begin, he went in to his boss and told his boss he didn't want medical insurance because God would be healing all our medical problems.<br />His boss yelled at him calling him a "stupid idiotic fool", and went ahead with the medical insurance anyway.<br />(It's a good thing, too, because it was later needed for my mom's life-saving care.)<br /><br />That's just a couple of things about only my immediate family and my best friend in church.<br />There were deaths and many permanent medical problems created by HWA's healing doctrine in our local congregation.<br /><br />I suppose the promise of healing is one way hucksters make money. <br /><br />These days, flipping through the channels I see a bunch of faith healers, endlessly paraded on hokey Christian TV stations like Daystar, TBN, and CBN.<br /><br />NormAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-86437138911346402002011-11-16T07:46:59.154-08:002011-11-16T07:46:59.154-08:00I agree with you, Jace. Atheism is no recovery fa...I agree with you, Jace. Atheism is no recovery faith for me. It's the end of my journey from stupidity to enlightenment.<br /><br />Atheism is the complete lack of faith in anything but nature and reality. That takes no faith at all. It just is.Allen C. Dexterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06615706118359802452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-58677834246990428592011-11-16T06:17:58.363-08:002011-11-16T06:17:58.363-08:00"However, you show no signs of stopping so I&..."However, you show no signs of stopping so I'll just drop it."<br /><br />Bob on atheism is like a Creationist with erroneous arguments. No matter how many times it is disproved, they keep on repeating the same thing in hopes that it will be true. <br /><br />Equating atheism with faith is a defense mechanism. By pretending that atheism is a faith just like Islam or Hinduism, they can disregard it and ignore it as having to substance, or worth thinking over too deeply. <br /><br />But again, to beat the horse, is a lack of belief in leprechauns a "faith?" Does it take active faith to disbelieve in Allah? No, it doesn't. It doesn't take faith to not believe in something for which there is no evidence. But Bob knows this. <br /><br />People who were angry at God or religion and decided to not believe in God are not atheists, in my opinion. They still believe in God, they are just hurt and angry at what people have done to them in the name of God. And hey, that's fine. But being angry at God and pretending to ignore your deep-seated belief is not the same as looking around and finding no evidence for God and seeing no point in pretending that God is real. <br /><br />Paul RayAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-69812663049416420132011-11-15T19:06:20.022-08:002011-11-15T19:06:20.022-08:00"Even some of the ex-WCG members who chose at...<i>"Even some of the ex-WCG members who chose atheism as their recovery faith"</i><br /><br />Cmon' Biker Bob, I thought we'd had a breakthrough last week. You know, established some common ground in the "dancing like you f*ck" regard? <br /><br />Your above comment is not only absurd, it is rather inaccurate, don't you think? Atheists having a <i>faith</i>? Then again, I've complained to you before about insinuating that atheism is simply a form of recovery that will be eventually discarded for jeebus. However, you show no signs of stopping so I'll just drop it. Sigh...Jacenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-68522521697086125522011-11-15T16:43:04.391-08:002011-11-15T16:43:04.391-08:00Byker Bob said...
"Even some of the ex-WCG m...Byker Bob said... <br />"Even some of the ex-WCG members who chose atheism as their recovery faith have admitted on forums past that they either experienced or witnessed healings."<br /><br />MY COMMENT: Get real! That is just wishful thinking. We were always told that when a certain person died, and they ALL died, (none of them were healed, no, NOT ONE), then they were healed and would be in the first resurrection(You're healed when you're dead? What kind of healing is that?). Nope! No one has been divinely healed in our present age. Never has been. Never will be. Have you ever seen an arm or a leg grow back, or an ear that was cut off put back on? Why not? Has anyone? Haven't seen the news report on it. Is that too hard for the divine being to do?Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07227542200969485271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-64460845758246088682011-11-15T15:03:53.729-08:002011-11-15T15:03:53.729-08:00"... ex-WCG members who chose atheism as thei..."... ex-WCG members who chose atheism as their recovery faith have admitted on forums past that they either experienced or witnessed healings..."<br /><br />While I never "chose" atheism, and my disbelief in gods is no more a faith than your disbelief in leprechauns, I can say with all honesty that if I had witnessed a supernatural healing (one with no other explanation than the supernatural), I would not longer be an atheist. <br /><br />"Divine healing does occur. So does natural healing through the strength of the subconscious mind."<br /><br />How do you tell the difference? How do you know what you may perceive as divine healing isn't actually natural healing? When Aunt May is prayed over and her cancer goes into remission, how can you tell whether Zeus intervened, or it was the power of the mind? Or her immune system? How can you tell? <br /><br />There is no divine healing, or if there was, it stopped just as man invented instruments that would be able to record it. It is very suspicious that all modern divine healings are never, ever events that cannot be explained as anything other that a supernatural miracle. Never. For example, cancer can go away. It's rare, but it can happen. It's the body. But a missing limb regrowing? Never, ever, ever. Funny, isn't it? Funny that all divine healings are events that can be, no matter the improbability, explained by natural causes. <br /><br />Your admission that God works through the medical profession, and that Christians recognized the glaring "disparity" and moved to build hospitals, and that doctors you know seek to" work with God" is theological back-pedaling. It reminds me of the cartoon where the priest is confronted with the evidence of evolution and after a pause proclaims, "God works through evolution! Praise God!" <br /><br />I prefer Fundamentalists to "enlightened" believers, who spend so much time trying to fit their belief system into the framework of reality that science has revealed (much to their embarrassment), all the while snubbing their noses at their low-born Fundamentalist brethren. <br /><br />Paul RayAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-60260217187001827762011-11-15T14:30:32.638-08:002011-11-15T14:30:32.638-08:00"We don't have to be guilty of a moral wr..."We don't have to be guilty of a moral wrong for a law of good health to be broken. "<br /><br />What health laws?<br /><br /><br />Paul RayAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-38229721670955521092011-11-15T12:23:10.810-08:002011-11-15T12:23:10.810-08:00Steve,
The rationale for the spit was that the Ph...Steve,<br /><br />The rationale for the spit was that the Pharisees added dos and don'ts proscribed the making of clay on the sabbath. This was just a case of Jesus getting into their faces, breaking their human laws, and demonstrating His own sense of humor. LOL, He was an awesome teacher! To fully appreciate this, imagine how much fun it would be for us here to be able to do a similar thing to Flurry, Pack, Meredith, or Weinland!<br /><br />BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602697337552385535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-13689121875787708382011-11-15T11:53:51.369-08:002011-11-15T11:53:51.369-08:00Even some of the ex-WCG members who chose atheism ...Even some of the ex-WCG members who chose atheism as their recovery faith have admitted on forums past that they either experienced or witnessed healings. <br /><br />This is a very complex topic. I do not believe that a corporate church group has the right to enforce what should be a matter of faith. No matter what doctrine or practice HWA/WCG taught, there was always some observable error or other contamination, which I personally believe has contributed to the bitterness all of us have experienced from time to time. In this case, the error with old school WCG, and with the more strict groups such as PCG is that the help that educated medical professionals could offer was always taken off the table, and adherence to this forbiddance was always used as criteria for one's continuation as a member in good standing, unless, however your name might in some cases be Armstrong or Meredith, and your role thought of as being indispensable.<br /><br />Divine healing does occur. So does natural healing through the strength of the subconscious mind. For some reason, a certain percentage of the general population has success with these, while others do not. The fact is that other Christian churches have recognized this apparent disparity or dichotomy, and were some of the earliest builders and supporters of hospitals and institutionalized healthcare, but the Armstrong movement calls these groups "Christians falsely so-called", and rejects them and their hospitals totally and completely.<br /><br />Personally, I believe that we live in a wonderful time, a time when we have many options, and when our health can be optimized through a variety of these options. To say that God cannot work through the medical profession, or that doctors and physicians in our present time are devil worshippers or sorcers is just plain ignorant.<br /><br />If we surveyed my own family to determine a dominant profession, that profession would be healthcare. I can assure everyone reading this that the five doctors in my immediate family are not devil worshippers. They are caring individuals who seek to help and alleviate human suffering.<br />Mostly, they see their role as working in harmony with God. They have some incredible experiences to share!<br /><br />BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602697337552385535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-41946528711944723292011-11-15T11:53:01.011-08:002011-11-15T11:53:01.011-08:00You said, "Armstrong explained, however, that...You said, "Armstrong explained, however, that “you might not have been guilty of any wrong, yet nature’s laws were violated or you wouldn’t be sick!” How’s that for double speak?"<br /><br />This is very clear, no double-speak at all.<br /><br />We don't have to be guilty of a moral wrong for a law of good health to be broken. <br /><br />Even the Messiah said that the blind man was that way so that the wonderful mercy of the Creator could be made manifest.NO2DOUBLE-SPEAKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-37497380490245191292011-11-15T06:30:19.680-08:002011-11-15T06:30:19.680-08:00Anonymous said...
"Maybe spit and mud has so...Anonymous said... <br />"Maybe spit and mud has some property we have lost awareness of!"<br /><br />MY COMMENT: I always wondered why Jesus had to use spit and mud in that particular incident. I never tried it to see if it would work. I just thought that it had to be God's spit, or it wouldn't work. I remember why my little daughter, about three or four years old had an ear infection and the "ministers" told us not to go to the doctor, so MR. Stan Watts and another asshole came out to our house and "anointed" her. Her ear ruptured and she has had problems with it ever since. She's 38 now. Thanks God!Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07227542200969485271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-43947431021183141352011-11-14T23:33:49.221-08:002011-11-14T23:33:49.221-08:00A couple of my children had a predisposition towar...A couple of my children had a predisposition towards ear infections. After a trip to the doctor and a course of antibiotics they would be fine. Then I would justify it to the judgmental folks around me with: "I am not going to let my boy go deaf to prove MY faith." That always shut them up, at least for that round, and my sons can still hear.Vaughnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-40260656408711289082011-11-14T14:51:01.815-08:002011-11-14T14:51:01.815-08:00Yes, and knowing a seizure lasts about 30 mins wit...Yes, and knowing a seizure lasts about 30 mins with all it's dramatic contortions, spitting, drooling, contractures, wild eyed blue skinned responses could make you seem like a healer if you cast out the demon.....and waited a few minutes if your timing was off.ha.<br /><br />Studies have shown that when the few people who never could see had vision restored, it was extrememly frightening, disorienting and in some cases, too much information and they didn't want vision. When you read the NT accounts a man is blind (not for women obviously) healed and acts like no biggy! <br /><br />Maybe spit and mud has some property we have lost awareness of!<br /><br />M.T.SocketsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-13574864725920458572011-11-14T13:09:38.516-08:002011-11-14T13:09:38.516-08:00"Healing never worked."
Nor does it now..."Healing never worked."<br /><br />Nor does it now, nor will it ever. Imaginary beings can't heal people. <br /><br /><br />I don't understand why God is always healing terminal cancer but he can't seem to regrow a missing leg, or hand. Perhaps it is because there is no other explanation for a regrown limb except supernatural intervention, which doesn't happen. <br /><br />Paul RayAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-30205738795973850612011-11-14T12:14:55.879-08:002011-11-14T12:14:55.879-08:00Just the sight of that stark black on white stripe...Just the sight of that stark black on white striped booklets makes me sick. (No pun intended).<br /><br />It's not just a COG thing. The Presbyterian Minister implied my folks must have done something to have a handicapped child. Bull shit of course. The hospital did it with too much oxygen and no nitrogen in those days.<br /><br />Healing never worked. I annointed maybe "thousands" over time and have no amazing record of healings. I sent many a member to the ER for help or to see a doc and some even fought me on that, so it was up to them. <br /><br />All sorts of horror stories I know are tweeked on this topic, some of which I am sure we will hear.<br /><br />The point is THE BOOK does not tell the truth on this matter. The only difference between surgery in your gut and a filling in your tooth is that with the tooth, the hole to get to it is already there! Otherwise, no difference.<br /><br />But again, James 5:14 may mean something but whatever it is , it has caused untold misery., fear, guilt and shame to those who take it at face value. There are lots of scriptures that do that if taken literally. <br /><br />The "prayer of faith," does not heal, restore, fix or mend the sick. Sin has nothing to do with illness unless one has so much anxiety over religion you give yourself an ulcer, cardio probs or cancer with the stress.<br /><br />The only minister I know who went to his grave unnecessarily refused treatment for MRSA long enough to be too late. <br /><br />Kids are another thing. NO ADULT has the right to exhibit "Faith" for a child. ALl children should get medical care. If an adult wants to trust the Deity with their health, knock yourself out, but no one can put a child in that position . You should go to jail if you think to exhibit faith for a child that is in need and you do nothing! <br /><br />"I will only be anointed and trust God," is an adult decision, or crackpot view, but not one a child should have to endure or have dictated to them. <br /><br />And don't ask a child if they want to trust God to heal them. They always say "yes." They're kids!<br /><br />M.T. Cranium<br /><br />amenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com