tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post5493215953647917011..comments2024-03-28T10:21:50.226-07:00Comments on Banned by HWA! News and Observations About Armstrongism and the Church of God Movement: Dennis Asks: "Is Romans 13 Good Teaching and Advice?"NO2HWAhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02018654662518613623noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-65510700861982244842011-09-06T13:24:20.896-07:002011-09-06T13:24:20.896-07:00Part II
From Flavius Josephus ....
Flavius Josep...Part II<br /><br /><br />From Flavius Josephus ....<br />Flavius Josephus, The Jewish War 2.175-177<br />On a later occasion he provoked a fresh uproar by expending upon the construction of an aqueduct the sacred treasure known as Corbonas; the water was brought from a distance of seventy kilometers. Indignant at this proceeding, the populace formed a ring round the tribunal of Pilate, then on a visit to Jerusalem, and besieged him with angry clamor. <br /> He, foreseeing the tumult, had interspersed among the crowd a troop of his soldiers, armed but disguised in civilian dress, with orders not to use their swords, but to beat any rioters with cudgels. He now from his tribunal gave the agreed signal. <br /> Large numbers of the Jews perished, some from the blows which they received, others trodden to death by their companions in the ensuing flight. Cowed by the fate of the victims, the multitude was reduced to silence.<br />*****<br />Flavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 18.60-62<br />He spent money from the sacred treasury in the construction of an aqueduct to bring water into Jerusalem, intercepting the source of the stream at a distance of thirty-five kilometers. The Jews did not acquiesce in the operations that this involved; and tens of thousands of men assembled and cried out against him, bidding him relinquish his promotion of such designs. Some too even hurled insults and abuse of the sort that a throng will commonly engage in. <br /> He thereupon ordered a large number of soldiers to be dressed in Jewish garments, under which they carried clubs, and he sent them off this way and that, thus surrounding the Jews, whom he ordered to withdraw. When the Jews were in full torrent of abuse he gave his soldiers the prearranged signal. <br /> They, however, inflicted much harder blows than Pilate had ordered, punishing alike both those who were rioting and those who were not. But the Jews showed no faint-heartedness; and so, caught unarmed, as they were, by men delivering a prepared attack, many of them actually were slain on the spot, while some withdrew disabled by blows. Thus ended the uprising<br />*****<br /><br />There is a good reference by Raymond E. Brown, "The Death of the Messiah: From Gethsemane to the Grave: A Commentary on the Passion Narratives in the Four Gospels", in volume I, pages 693-710. It is too long to post here however.<br /><br />These paint a different picture of him than that which the Bible portrays.Realityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16593971656553572775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-28208020521248038242011-09-06T13:22:28.594-07:002011-09-06T13:22:28.594-07:00Some references I find written of Pontius Pilate:
...Some references I find written of Pontius Pilate:<br />Part I<br /><br />From Philo of Alexandria...<br />Philo of Alexandria, The embassy to Caligula 299-305<br />Pilate was an official who had been appointed prefect of Judaea. With the intention of annoying the Jews rather than of honoring Tiberius, he set up gilded shields in Herod's palace in the Holy City. They bore no figure and nothing else that was forbidden, but only the briefest possible inscription, which stated two things - the name of the dedicator and that of the person in whose honor the dedication was made. <br /> But when the Jews at large learnt of this action, which was indeed already widely known, they chose as their spokesmen the king's [Herod the Great] four sons, who enjoyed prestige and rank equal to that of kings, his other descendants, and their own officials, and besought Pilate to undo his innovation in the shape of the shields, and not to violate their native customs, which had hitherto been invariably preserved inviolate by kings and emperors alike. <br /> When Pilate, who was a man of inflexible, stubborn and cruel disposition, obstinately refused, they shouted: 'Do not cause a revolt! Do not cause a war! Do not break the peace! Disrespect done to our ancient laws brings no honor to the emperor. Do not make Tiberius an excuse for insulting our nation. He does not want any of our traditions done away with. If you say that he does, show us some decree or letter or something of the sort, so that we may cease troubling you and appeal to our master by means of an embassy.' <br /> This last remark exasperated Pilate most of all, for he was afraid that if they really sent an embassy, they would bring accusations against the rest of his administration as well, specifying in detail his venality, his violence, his thefts, his assaults, his abusive behavior, his frequent executions of untried prisoners, and his endless savage ferocity. <br /> So, as he was a spiteful and angry person, he was in a serious dilemma; for he had neither the courage to remove what he had once set up, nor the desire to do anything which would please his subjects, but at the same time he was well aware of Tiberius' firmness on these matters. When the Jewish officials saw this, and realized that Pilate was regretting what he had done, although he did not wish to show it, they wrote a letter to Tiberius, pleading their case as forcibly as they could. <br /> What words, what threats Tiberius uttered against Pilate when he read it! It would be superfluous to describe his anger, although he was not easily moved to anger, since his reaction speaks for itself. <br /> For immediately, without even waiting until the next day, he wrote to Pilate, reproaching and rebuking him a thousand times for his new-fangled audacity and telling him to remove the shields at once and have them taken from the capital to the coastal city of Caesarea [...], to be dedicated in the temple of Augustus. This was duly done. In this way both the honor of the emperor and the traditional policy regarding Jerusalem were alike preserved. <br />******Realityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16593971656553572775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-18070506187661277392011-09-05T20:03:59.357-07:002011-09-05T20:03:59.357-07:00The alternative to law and order is anarchy. This ...The alternative to law and order is anarchy. This begins in the individual soul and spreads from person to person until the masses are engulfed in today's chaos.<br /><br />Since the Edomite bankers are rapidly moving all the nations into that direction through unpayable debt and war, we will see if disregard for law and order, even with bad, terrible, or abusive law enforcement is a safe and peaceful alternative to the Creator's law of love and obedience.<br /><br />The ecclesia was always told to stay separate from the governments of Babylon, but to be at peace with them is possible.<br /><br />Fly low and stay out of sight is good advice-then as now--to survive in this wicked world.Fly rightnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-40658252376808014002011-09-04T14:22:06.952-07:002011-09-04T14:22:06.952-07:00Hi Steve, yes, it is the passing on of stories un...Hi Steve, yes, it is the passing on of stories until someone writes them down and then who knows what really happened or was really said.<br /><br />The different authors give different details to the story but the question is why the story in the first place. There could have been a real Jesus Bar Abba in prison for those crimes, but what an amazing coincidence. A Jesus Son of the Father and a Jesus King of the Jews. And the Jesus King of the Jews was claiming to be a Jesus Son of the Father! ;)<br /><br />As noted, there is NO history of Pilate being such a softy towards Jesus or the caring what the people wanted. There is no evidence for this "let someone go at Passover," tradition. Pilate is painted at times as almost being a Christian and history would deny this portrayal. He was ruthless and to be feared.<br /><br />The key seems to be the crowd's response to "Do you want Jesus king of the Jews" and they said, "we have no king but Caesar.' This seems to be the point of the story and Pilate. To pin it on the Jews a bit and to test their loyalty to Rome. Not to release any man called Jesus the Son of God instead of Jesus.DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-64763856883697743952011-09-04T12:56:16.212-07:002011-09-04T12:56:16.212-07:00I understand what you're saying about "ba...I understand what you're saying about "bar abbas", but isn't "abbas" a common surname in the middle east? Could it be that no one knew who his father was, not even Barabbas? So, Matthew(or whoever wrote the book)lied? And, what about Luke? He said(or whoever wrote it)that Barabbas was a murderer. Mark calls him a murderer and insurrectionist. John calls him a robber. Peter also called him a murderer in Acts 3:14. Would they all say the same thing about the man they were following? I thought the Jesus Christ was without evil. If they were one and the same, how could one be that evil and the other be that good? It seems like opposites. Forgive me, but I'm a little puzzled about your religion. Don't get me wrong. I think there's many things in the bible(and I don't think it's "holy" or deserving of a capital letter)that ought to be taken with a grain of salt and not inspired. It's kinda like playing "telephone, telephone" for thousands of years.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07227542200969485271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-2699148430749010802011-09-04T11:35:51.129-07:002011-09-04T11:35:51.129-07:00And then .....
History shows Pontius Pilate to ha...And then .....<br /><br />History shows Pontius Pilate to have been a ruthless man, not inclined to "wash his hands" of the outcome of Jesus' trial.<br /><br />This notion of his sympathy for Jesus was recorded in the text in order to facilitate more blame on Judah for his death.<br /><br />I will look up some of the references.Realityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16593971656553572775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-64045157715433296752011-09-04T08:51:16.351-07:002011-09-04T08:51:16.351-07:00Pilate "released" the religious title to...Pilate "released" the religious title to them for he cared not about that. Rome killed the Jesus who claimed to be a king and threat to Rome somewhere along the line. No human got released. But when given a title, the dead jesus got "King of the Jews" on his cross, not "Son of the Father'<br /><br />So in once sense, the Jesus son of God (Jesus Bar Abbas) didn't die on the cross. weird theology!DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-68253167960741691522011-09-04T08:48:42.467-07:002011-09-04T08:48:42.467-07:00Right. There was only one. Jesus. It was a debat...Right. There was only one. Jesus. It was a debate over which title the Jews gave the one Jesus and which one Rome killed. The crowd chose wisely to save themselves from Pilate and Rome too.<br /><br />There were no two people coincidently called Jesus the Son of the Father (Bar Abbas) and Jesus the King of the Jews.DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-12209388870319529392011-09-04T08:37:28.089-07:002011-09-04T08:37:28.089-07:00Hmmmm! So, neither "one" was released?Hmmmm! So, neither "one" was released?Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07227542200969485271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-70287863977041448502011-09-04T08:22:37.528-07:002011-09-04T08:22:37.528-07:00DennisCDiehl said...
short version
Early copies o...DennisCDiehl said...<br />short version<br /><br />Early copies of Mark have Barabbas called Jesus Barabbas<br /><br />Bar in hebrew means "son of"<br />Abba means "Father"<br /><br />So we have Barabbas or Jesus Son of the Father or Son of God. <br /><br />Hmmmmm?<br /><br />We have Jesus, King of the Jews.<br /><br /><br />Pilate is asking crowd, "Do you want Jesus the Son of the Father (Religious Jesus) or Jesus King of the Jews.<br /><br />Crowd: "we have no King but Caesar"<br /><br />Pilate: "Good answer because if you did, I'd kill you all. I don't care about the Jesus Son of God, that's your problem. I care about this same man being your King." So I release Jesus the Son of the Father who is harmless to me but this King gets it. <br /><br />There were not two men being discussed. There were two titles. Jesus was a dead man but the crowd was being tested as to their loyalty to Rome. If he is your Rabbi..take him. If he is your King...you all die. <br /><br />Give us Jesus Bar Abba<br /><br />Pilate: Good answer. SIGN OVER JESUS ON CROSS "Here is Jesus, King of the Jews."<br /><br />The Jesus that was the religious one was let go. They got Jesus Bar Abbas. Rome got their KingDennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-81315920902570922462011-09-04T08:19:42.523-07:002011-09-04T08:19:42.523-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-4516744322318014422011-09-04T08:03:20.342-07:002011-09-04T08:03:20.342-07:00DennisCDiehl said...
"I won't rekindle t...DennisCDiehl said... <br />"I won't rekindle the story of Bar Abbas vs Jesus King of the Jews, but there were not two men in the story. Pilate was testing the crowds loyalty and their lives depended on the answer."<br /><br />MY COMMENT: Go ahead. Rekindle it.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07227542200969485271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-60221240175350334962011-09-03T12:22:32.503-07:002011-09-03T12:22:32.503-07:00The story of Judas, imho, is an attempt to place J...The story of Judas, imho, is an attempt to place Jesus death at the feet of the Jews and not the Romans who clearly killed Jesus the King of the Jews. "We, had better, have no other King but Caesar," and all. <br /><br />I won't rekindle the story of Bar Abbas vs Jesus King of the Jews, but there were not two men in the story. Pilate was testing the crowds loyalty and their lives depended on the answer. <br /><br />Criminals were never released to the Jews on Passover in reality.DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-83374650165342939602011-09-03T10:50:47.540-07:002011-09-03T10:50:47.540-07:00"Even Gospel Jesus upended the tables of the ..."Even Gospel Jesus upended the tables of the Temple which would have brought Roman wrath upon him for risking riots during Passover etc. "<br /><br />And this leads to yet another biblical inconsistency. Why was there any need for a Judas to betray Christ with a kiss, since they knew exactly who Jesus was. They didn't want to arrest him during the "Jewish" feast because it might cause an uprising.<br /><br />Some authors postulate that the very name, "Judas" was to be reminiscent of Judah/Judaism so that they could usher in the idea of the Jews being responsible for Jesus' death rather than that of Rome/Pilate/Caligula.<br /><br />The list looms large!<br /><br />Your article is fantastic. I have to wonder how it was that so many of us never saw a problem with the very idea that God put the powers that be over us. I expect the churches would try to make it apper that the Bible's "rulers over us" only pertained to those leaders inside the church.<br /><br />Great work!Realityhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16593971656553572775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-51202338131473169512011-09-03T09:49:20.220-07:002011-09-03T09:49:20.220-07:00Thanks! Hi Steve, I have thought about this since...Thanks! Hi Steve, I have thought about this since a kid. Always seemed contrived to save Paul from Roman harassament.<br /><br />Also, If this is so, the Jesus of Revelation spends the whole book upending the Kingdoms of this world... If they agents for good and placed there by the Father God, I imagine it shows the Son is not on board with this "they carry not the sword in vain" etc...<br /><br />Even Gospel Jesus upended the tables of the Temple which would have brought Roman wrath upon him for risking riots during Passover etc. Very disrespectful again of Rome as the agent of God and appointed by God for their good.<br /><br />It is obvious that Paul never read about or knew any such Jesus, nor any Jesus him.DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-62398055234302871432011-09-03T08:12:52.029-07:002011-09-03T08:12:52.029-07:00Great job of again showing the obvious stupidity o...Great job of again showing the obvious stupidity of much of the Bible and religion in general.<br /><br />The purpose of all relgions is control of the masses for the benefit of the controlers. Some of my best friends (Bill Dankenbring, Richard Hopkins, etc.) set out to found their own religious organizations. I never wanted to because the last thing I wanted to do was control other people. <br /><br />Life probably would have been much easier if I had taken that route and some of my body might be less stove up from all the hard work entailed in wrestling carpet around, but I would have been just another leech sucking blood from deceived people.<br /><br />It's nice to sleep well at night and know that what financial benefits I have garnered were obtained honestly and hurt nobody.Allen C. Dexterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06615706118359802452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-23848208450952239472011-09-03T06:31:54.038-07:002011-09-03T06:31:54.038-07:00As usual, Dennis, you are writing what I have alwa...As usual, Dennis, you are writing what I have always been thinking. Get out of my head! :-) I have never told you this, but in regard to your debate with McCarrow and that other idiot...you came out looking like the intelligent one. The other two were so full of shit and made themselves look so bad with their parroting remarks, that if I were them, I would have hid under a rock afterwards.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07227542200969485271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-319028980580547742011-09-03T06:19:09.912-07:002011-09-03T06:19:09.912-07:00Dennis quoted this scripture:
2 Consequently, wh...Dennis quoted this scripture:<br /><br /> 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves<br /><br />MY COMMENT - Well, here is a WCG scripture conflict catch 22. The WCG taught British Israelism - the USA was Manasseh and Great Britain was Ephriam. Did not the 13 original colonies rise up and rebel against the British empire - rebel what allegedly God instituted?<br /><br />There could be no USA without rebelling and fighting the Revolutionary War in direct conflict of the quoted scripture. And, if there was no Revolutionary War, then there could be no WCG teaching that Manasseh was the biblical identity of the USA.<br /><br />Now there is a catch 22 that I wish Mr. Armstrong could explain. However, I wouldn't ask Gerald Waterhouse because it would turn into a 4 hour sermon. :)<br /><br />RichardLake of Fire Church of Godnoreply@blogger.com