tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post7175107103722812119..comments2024-03-28T08:37:16.470-07:00Comments on Banned by HWA! News and Observations About Armstrongism and the Church of God Movement: Dennis On: "This Will Be Like Nothing I Have Ever Quite Taught This Way Before...."NO2HWAhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02018654662518613623noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-16524005167247880112013-04-30T12:16:15.827-07:002013-04-30T12:16:15.827-07:00Head Usher said...
For so many, not just in Armst...Head Usher said...<br /><i> For so many, not just in Armstrongism, but in all churches, "religion" always remains on the level of academic theory or a nice lecture series, and never turns into anything practical. Why is that acceptable for so many people? I don't get it.</i><br /><br />It really wasn't supposed to be that way. It was supposed to be a "short work" (Rom. 9:28) in the "last days" of 2,000 years ago (Acts 2:17). They were supposed to "graduate" and become teachers themselves (Heb. 5:12).<br /><br />I reckon they want "the first principles" to be taught to them over and over and over again because they don't want to graduate and "go on unto perfection" (Heb. 6:1) and quit laying the foundation that is already laid.Corkyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15894537940881776504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-31972002971282164872013-04-30T11:28:46.364-07:002013-04-30T11:28:46.364-07:00BB said...
Why would a real gospel message require...BB said...<br /><i>Why would a real gospel message require hype, pressure, fear, sugarcoating, exaggeration, downplaying of certain elements, or excuses? The answer is that it would not! And, that should be the tipoff, right there.</i><br /><br />Yes...it should. Now, go back and read the NT canon again.Corkyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15894537940881776504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-30889026778166482782013-04-30T08:22:42.066-07:002013-04-30T08:22:42.066-07:00Hi Dennis,
You wrote,
"You know, that which...Hi Dennis,<br /><br />You wrote, <br /><i>"You know, that which does not kill us makes us stronger."</i><br /><br />I agree, but would add, that sometimes it doesn't kill us, but remains as a higher (or lower level) infection.<br /><br />I think it's apropos to consider a mindset inculcated in such an environment to be a virus and a meme.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-58852017917309281982013-04-30T08:00:36.727-07:002013-04-30T08:00:36.727-07:00I agree anon. It's almost like an innoculatio...I agree anon. It's almost like an innoculation. You have one first experience and then as in the case of WCG, the virus multiplies or you come in contact to more of the same , it is easier to fight it. I seriously doubt I will ever again be taken in by any one man or organization that pretends to be the one. Perhaps those who still look for more virus to infect them simply didn not learn anything or develope an immunity the first time "the truth, plain, real or restored," blew up on them. <br /><br />A meme is a mind virus that multiplies like a virus. In the WCG and COG world the memes are...<br /><br />There is one true church<br />I am an Apostle<br />God made me the Watcher<br />I am like Joshua<br />I am a prophet<br />HWA was the Elijah<br />Christians so called<br />How did you come into the truth?<br /><br />None of these are true but they are true to those who are not immune from them or those who could have been but it failed to take. In other words, they learned little or nothing from the past infection beginning with WCG which may have seemed like a vitimin but turned into a virus.<br /><br />CGI/WCG Tkach merel reinvented old viruses thought dead . I guess they dug them up from rotting corpses when they met the Four Square bunch. Hank Hannagraaf was a carrier from which Tkach was not immune. The insuing plague killed off most of the brethren. The survivors either crawled to another infected leper colony or were genuinly immune from the experience.<br /><br />You know, that which does not kill us makes us stronger.DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-72350613356937335692013-04-30T07:46:16.767-07:002013-04-30T07:46:16.767-07:00Hey Dennis and others- That was a fine blog entry,...Hey Dennis and others- That was a fine blog entry, and some good comments, too.<br /><br />I'm reminded of something I heard once, that seemed right...<br />It went something like this-<br />"The reason hormones rage in puberty is for it to be a kind of magnified event, so, in later more mature years, one can better understand and better deal with the emotions and reactions involved with adult living."<br /><br />In a way, I see experience with the WCG or other (secular or non-secular) 'high control' organizations (and that "experience" can be having a friend or family member involved, and not necessarily that a person joined such an org) as having a similar "magnifying effect" that can be helpful in evaluating other organizations later.<br /><br />Take the Daystar or TBN Christian TV networks, for example... They are full of Christian hucksters who use use many conniving techniques that are more easily identified and laid bare if one has had experience with other high control huckster-led groups. <br /><br />Heck, watching "Doctor" Creflo Dollar "operate" and preach for a few minutes raises many red flags for me, and my previous experiences help me see him as the con-man and huckster he is.<br /><br />When reading Dennis' blog entry, I thought of another 'response' aimed at "Doctor Dollar", which was, "Because my elbows are still sore (despite your healing them in front of tens of thousands of people) from polishing your Rolls-Royces every day?"<br /><br />Sadly, not everyone leaves the mindset inculcated in a 'high control' organization when they THINK they're "leaving and totally getting out" and they join another similar org(although happily, it's sometimes less controlling)....The many splinters of the WCG are evidence of this phenomenon. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-81685011366032836492013-04-29T17:06:27.315-07:002013-04-29T17:06:27.315-07:00...Continued
For me, Armstrongism ran out of anyt......Continued<br /><br />For me, Armstrongism ran out of anything relevant or helpful to say pretty quickly. And that is where the marketing, high-pressure sales techniques, and hyperbolic language begins to be "necessary." Not necessary for you or me, though. Necessary for others. It is not in the "best interests" of churches for their "students" to ever graduate, or to grow, or to ever get rid of old baggage or to ever clear monkeys from off their backs. It is in the best of interests of churches for their parishioners to never be able to solve any of their problems. This is a real conflict of interest for churches, and Armstrongism's organizations are no exception. And, after a while, the church itself becomes part of your baggage, and one of the monkeys on your back. So the conflicts of interest grow over time.<br /><br />There are billions of people who hold to some form or variation of the "lifelong church" paradigm. But I'm through believing that there is safety in numbers. I am done believing that the great mass of people always gravitate around things of value. If I don’t see the value, that means for me, there isn’t any there. I guess I owe Armstrongism a debt of gratitude for teaching me this lesson, and how to be self-reliant instead. Now I believe the great mass of people represents nothing more than the lowest common denominator. I graduated from high school a long time ago, and believe it or not, I still know what "lowest common denominator" means. Put that in your censer and smoke it.<br /><br />"If you maintain a dead church, contribute to a dead Bible-society, vote with a great party either for the government or against it...I have difficulty to detect the precise man you are: and of course so much force is withdrawn from your proper life...A man must consider what a blind-man's-buff is this game of conformity. If I know your sect I anticipate your argument. I hear a preacher announce for his text and topic the expediency of one of the institutions of his church. Do I not know beforehand that not possibly can he say a new spontaneous word? ...Do I not know that he is pledged to himself not to look but at one side, the permitted side, not as a man, but as a parish minister? ...This conformity makes them not false in a few particulars, authors of a few lies, but false in all particulars. Their every truth is not quite true. Their two is not the real two, their four not the real four; so that every word they say chagrins us and we know not where to begin to set them right."<br /><br /><i>Self-Reliance</i>, Ralph Waldo EmersonHead Ushernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-47656738353462439112013-04-29T17:05:57.321-07:002013-04-29T17:05:57.321-07:00Good point, BB.
In my experience, when you come i...Good point, BB.<br /><br />In my experience, when you come into contact with things that are really true that you did not "get" before, which is to say, not just true, but stated in such a way as to be relevant and helpful, it needs no sales pitches, fanfare, hyperbole, puffery, fearmongering, etc. I will often have a kind of V-8 moment when I come across a helpful truth, because once I've heard it and fully understand it in its proper context, it seems so obvious that I wonder why I never thought of it before.<br /><br />When I come across truth that I have been lacking and needing, and have in fact been suffering because I was missing it, I don't need anyone to "sell" it to me. It's like my whole subconscious brain resonates and lights up with it, because of it. Sometimes I'll have to watch a documentary several times before I figure out consciously what the exact principle is my subconscious is responding to.<br /><br />All pressure, sugarcoating, and exaggeration are just marketing. Any time someone has to "market" an idea, it means it's an idea that will benefit the one who is speaking, not necessarily the one who is hearing. I am quite capable of knowing what information I need without any "extra help", thanks.<br /><br />And when you think of it that way, the info that you specifically are missing, that will help you ditch your old baggage and live your life more fully, that has to be unique to you and your circumstances. There is no reason why anyone else should know what info you need, as opposed to the info you've always had and take for granted. There is no formulaic package of info that is going to be universally helpful to everyone. There are some belief systems out there that, at least in principle, recognize this fact and that one should, as A.A. says so simply, take what is useful and leave the rest. Of course the major world religions like Christianity and Islam do not recognize this fact. And controlling cults such as Armstrongism takes pains to not only ignore this fact, but to make it seem like their formulaic package of info is exactly what everyone everywhere needs.<br /><br />One of the things that I don't understand about churches of all varieties is that they all just repeat similar lectures on topics from their formulaic package, which are not, in a way, dissimilar to a lecture you might receive in high school or college. How many times do you have to hear about how, for example, Jesus died for your sins, before you "get it" already? How many times do you have to hear about how the quadratic formula works, or the mechanics of how an earthquake happens, or the difference between an adjective or adverb, before you "get it"? Nobody thinks you should continue to attend high school or college and have those lectures repeated over and over for the rest of your life. Why do they think that about the lectures at church? Why aren't you expected to attend church for a few years, and then they give you a diploma and expect you to graduate to real world practice? For so many, not just in Armstrongism, but in all churches, "religion" always remains on the level of academic theory or a nice lecture series, and never turns into anything practical. Why is that acceptable for so many people? I don't get it.<br /><br />Continued...Head Ushernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-15098073431754122482013-04-29T16:27:07.946-07:002013-04-29T16:27:07.946-07:00Dave is all about hype. He must watch a lot of &q...Dave is all about hype. He must watch a lot of "news" (actually propaganda) on TV. Maybe he took a degree in "journalism" (actually propaganda). Y'all know the sea levels have risen 2000 feet since Al Gore's movie and we are all under seawater now, right? Y'all know Iran will have nukes by next year (they have been saying that for 5 years), right? Y'all know Israel is in grave danger from Iran (Israel has 300 undeclared nukes and everybody knows it). Y'all know Dave is an apostle-god, right? (Frankly, I could make up the same shit he does). Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-36957339425684550372013-04-29T15:34:49.685-07:002013-04-29T15:34:49.685-07:00Drama queens are not mentally healthy for you.Drama queens are not mentally healthy for you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-9158254879715285822013-04-29T15:22:20.037-07:002013-04-29T15:22:20.037-07:00They do BB you are right about the need for consta...They do BB you are right about the need for constant and unending surprises, awesomeness, incredible breakthroughs and such. It gets really old and is mentally exhausting, and spiritually probably to people. Living a quiet spiritual life from the inside out is unacceptable evidently. I guess it makes you hold more on to your money and hype squeezes it out of you for the next "just around the corner," and "soon."<br /><br />ddAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-682485539351396992013-04-29T14:54:32.724-07:002013-04-29T14:54:32.724-07:00One of the horrible character flaws many of us pic...One of the horrible character flaws many of us picked up from WCG is the incessant use of hype (short either for hyperbole, or hypocrite?). I hadn't even realized that this was a problem in my own life until about ten years ago, because it just seems so normal, and even honest, to the one applying the hype, or it's first cousin, spin.<br /><br />Now, when you read what a David Seapack has to write, it immediately smacks you in the face. Why would a real gospel message require hype, pressure, fear, sugarcoating, exaggeration, downplaying of certain elements, or excuses? The answer is that it would not! And, that should be the tipoff, right there.<br /><br />The subtilties of the particular infection just keep on surfacing, decades after one has left, don't they?<br /><br />BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602697337552385535noreply@blogger.com