tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post8186584377430167058..comments2024-03-29T02:57:52.065-07:00Comments on Banned by HWA! News and Observations About Armstrongism and the Church of God Movement: The Dangers in The Ring Mastered ChurchNO2HWAhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02018654662518613623noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-90429703060645636972017-04-29T10:04:50.206-07:002017-04-29T10:04:50.206-07:00Also, I didn't make it to the AR event either....Also, I didn't make it to the AR event either. The technology revolution in my industry is relentless, and the installation and training on new equipment and systems has more or less taken over my entire life. Last week I had one of the regional managers from my primary manufacturer working with me. He anticipates that this wave of activity will continue for the next ten years. Had I been in Vegas, I would have been nervously watching my cell phone, and worried about my customers.<br /><br />BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602697337552385535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-42580187129346173052017-04-29T09:45:06.723-07:002017-04-29T09:45:06.723-07:00Dennis, you got double burned by the same people. ...Dennis, you got double burned by the same people. First they inflicted the legalism and Phariseeism, the additional pet theories of HWA and his spin on prophecy and the end times on the members, all of which had to be accepted unquestioningly as a unit or supposedly you were headed to the Lake of Fire. Then they inflicted New Covenant Christianity on the members using the same cruel managerial style, burning a lot of loyal people as well as creating hatred for the "new" teachings. It was as if they served ice cream, but made the same faces as if they were gagging down and force feeding everyone liver and collard greens. People were victimized by authoritarianism and control, and in the aftermath a certain number ended up choosing one philosophy, others choosing the remaining one, with a third group choosing neither and hating both! <br /><br />To me, the most important element is not that those who leave Armstrongism adopt a particular set of beliefs or non-beliefs, but that they recognize the toxicity and bogussness that is being forcefully inflicted on them, and that they get safely away from that. They've been taught (it is harped upon!) what happens to people and their minds if they should ever leave "God's" church, and then they witness people on these recovery sites who not only seem to embody that stereotype, but appear to be in majority. So the scary rhetoric regarding the built in toll for leaving ends up appearing as the overwhelming reality, playing into the hands of the tyrranical ACOG ministers, and strengthening the trap. They've already dealt with you and are prepared for you. Your role is to help scare people back into Armstrongism, and you do what you do very effectively, even though you believe that you are simply bouncing around your new ideas. If you listen to them, some of the anonymous LCG posters have attempted to tell you as much.<br /><br />None of this stuff supporting non-belief bothers or threatens me personally, because I had spent 30 years already pondering and considering it. I learned by the absence therof what God brings to the party, and it isn't the fundamentalist strawman stuff that some non-believers imply.<br /><br />We've all seen well-intentioned but tragic characters on TV and in the movies, some of whom are actually occasionally brilliant, but mostly miss or misinterpret social cues, and end up doing damage or creating detours that they did not foresee or intend. Hopefully, we don't have such people here. It works much better when we can point out those personality types as they play for the other team. "It takes one to know one" often initially exposes problems, but it's not the state of mind which gets the job done.<br /><br />BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602697337552385535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-86339092302909604422017-04-29T08:15:13.477-07:002017-04-29T08:15:13.477-07:00"Some of the references which you made in you..."Some of the references which you made in your post contradict what you state in your third paragraph of 11:19, Dennis. What mega-churches have ever existed in Armstrongism? Who in Armstrongism even had the types of charisma that could have built a mega-church, and what Armstrongite ministers drove around in expensive sports cars? Not even Pasadena meeting in the "House for God" approached mega-church status."<br /><br />Herb's son, Richard, had a sports car and drove around like hell in it, once clear across the country, bragging about ignoring speed limits, and this is before the interstates when roads were narrow and much more dangerous. I'm a little older, so I remember things like that. <br /><br />No, Herb didn't want to squander money on physical plants that he could spend agrandizing himself, but what he did build was akin for a time to a mega church.<br /><br />Allen C. DexterAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-2891055552995804022017-04-29T08:00:15.676-07:002017-04-29T08:00:15.676-07:00PS BB. Don't know if you ended up going to th...PS BB. Don't know if you ended up going to the Alumni Reunion in Vegas or the AR part of it and I chose not to for reasons of over stirring up my own pot of issues but had we both ended up there we'd have had a great lunch together I am sure :) I understand we didn't miss much at the AR part as it got off track and boring for maybe half of it. We could have spiced it up a bit I am sure! DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-23755622623156743522017-04-29T07:32:51.348-07:002017-04-29T07:32:51.348-07:00BB, I get it that you believe I am a threat to peo...BB, I get it that you believe I am a threat to people coming to a proper understanding of Jesus and Faith as you journeyed from WCG in your youth, to atheism and back to a more satisfying Christian faith. I get that. <br /><br />I have had my own experience from Dutch Reformed growing up to WCG, where in my naivete' just knew God wanted me to be and a minister to boot. (Wow..that has lots of double meaning for me! lol) to rediscovering my childhood and youthful love of science and real human origins. <br /><br />I have always thru it all believed in the fact of earth age being in the billions and the evolution of life, including human . I collect early human stone tools one of which is from Oldevai Gorge and is 1.8 million years old and have a collection of meteorites right over >>>>> none of which is less than 4.5 billion years old. I am so weird with my fascinations as to wear a beautiful piece of banded iron around my neck which is 2.5 billion years old and formed before there was only bacteria spewing O2 and rusting out iron from the ocean in beautiful layers. When I kid about not having been a paleontologist or geologist, I should use the word mourn. <br /><br />I honor your journey. I carry a lot of personal frustrations, issues with religion forced on me with my permission before I stood up for myself both outside and in. I deeply regret my youthful decisions but it was the 60's and both Biblical understanding which has and always will fascinate me and the understanding of where earth, humans and the universe were on the rise. I just picked the wrong one. <br /><br />We're all in this together here at banned. Someone suggested yesterday I start my own site where those so inclined as I am can go and discuss our issues and such, but I don't want to. Banned, to me, is a site where one can process their WCG/Splinter/Sliver experience and move on to either a better understanding Christianity, and awareness of what went wrong or even that religion has it's problems no matter which one you choose. <br /><br />Gary has the contacts for all the church baloney and drama past, present and probably future. I fill in the spaces with my own views as you could with yours if wished. <br /><br />Sorry, I have a LOT on my mind of late. You're a good guy. So am I.<br /><br /> I had many things in WCG I thought were either not important such as BI or stupid, such as makeup, doctor issues and believe it or not, the weird personalities I had to work for and around at times. I have not changed much in my entire life and WCG did not turn me into some religious freak or dictatorial pastor. <br /><br />DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-51888298911295890242017-04-29T06:59:22.583-07:002017-04-29T06:59:22.583-07:00Dennis. What mega-churches have ever existed in Ar...<br /> Dennis. What mega-churches have ever existed in Armstrongism? Who in Armstrongism even had the types of charisma that could have built a mega-church, and what Armstrongite ministers drove around in expensive sports cars? Not even Pasadena meeting in the "House for God" approached mega-church status.<br /><br />BB<br /><br />None of course. The posting was about the personality disorders that can arise in ministry and has and still is in the mega in their minds ministries of Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry, Bob Thiel and the silly little Bible reader men that have oozed out of the ashes. Herbert of course had his excesses as displayed on this site and the mini mega "leading Evangelists" of WCG all had their toys , big homes and heads. <br /><br />Sorry if I confused you straying into the concept of Mega Church ministries and the same pitfalls they face with their own challenges with personality disorders in ministry. It's a common problem in business and religion. <br /><br />So no, you are right. WCG never reached the status of Mega Church of course and most ministers did not ride around in expensive sports cars or wear Rolexes, well except Joey Tkach I suppose who I understand collected them. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-78316782892267829482017-04-29T00:14:38.796-07:002017-04-29T00:14:38.796-07:00Some of the references which you made in your post...Some of the references which you made in your post contradict what you state in your third paragraph of 11:19, Dennis. What mega-churches have ever existed in Armstrongism? Who in Armstrongism even had the types of charisma that could have built a mega-church, and what Armstrongite ministers drove around in expensive sports cars? Not even Pasadena meeting in the "House for God" approached mega-church status.<br /><br />BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602697337552385535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-38392874243578925272017-04-28T23:19:21.552-07:002017-04-28T23:19:21.552-07:00"Becoming focussed on a profile creates a pre..."Becoming focussed on a profile creates a prejudice, and actually retards growth and progress. A mentor or guru who would fix such images in your mind is actually setting you back, although the most comfortable path is often buying into his simplistic line of thought. When stereotypes are presented, dig deeper. Don't just hear them and stop. You may be surprised at what you find!:<br /><br />Bob, the focus of the posting on the signs, symptoms and behaviors of narcissistic pastor types who run off in all theological directions possible and hurt people is, in context, being restricted to the split, splinter and sliver ministries we are all familiar with. It is done so in the hope that some in those groups who come to the site here might realize what it is they are seeing in their COG apostle, prophet and witness. I think we all know who we are all speaking of in the context of BannedHWA.<br /><br />I am not speaking of your large community church nor of those you may admire in your religious community though they are over a large number of people, though this problem in ministry is not restricted to "Armstrongist" types. All denominations have learned the hard way about bullies and narcissists in the pulpit amongst a minority of their own, however from time to time. <br /><br />I am not so inexperienced as to believe that "all pastors fall into one monolithic aura..."<br /><br /> <br /><br />DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-58950639273953642632017-04-28T21:06:28.758-07:002017-04-28T21:06:28.758-07:00Somehow, I never thought of the creation of a prof...Somehow, I never thought of the creation of a profile, stereotype, or strawman (shades of meaning; they're all pretty much the same) as being particularly brilliant, insightful, or useful. But, this is a technique we absorbed in Armstrongism to help us deal with those outside of our own little myopic world. Drunken Christmas parties, race fan only interested in the crashes, philanthropist motivated by his own guilt, mainstream minister who actually knows better, homosexual matinee idol, greedy salesman, power-mad public servant, etc.<br /><br />To assume that large churches and their pastors fall into one monolithic aura is to fail to view individual churches with any sort of depth or understanding. The fact is, there is a tremendous amount of diversity in that group, and individuality involved in each one. This is why others have recommended testing the spirit of a church that you are considering attending. This is of course something that was not allowed in Armstrongism. Seems they got past this bit of common sense through the notion that Herbert W. Armstrong was "God's Apostle", leader of "God's True Church". So, members were not permitted to "test the spirit" of their local congregation, or the various ministers. Check your spiritual intelligence at the door! Can you imagine telling Gerald Flurry, Rod Meredith, or Dave Pack that you were testing the spirit of their ACOG? There would likely be a nuclear explosion far beyond the hopes and dreams of Kim Jong-Un! Moab bomb? Forget that! We're talking the Korah bomb here!<br /><br />Large community churches have large resources with which to accomplish good. Many are deeply involved in their surrounding community, some providing free funerals, doing drives that refill foodbanks, providing viable alternatives for teenage prostitutes, and offering various services for at risk or special needs kids. The teenagers counter many of the bad influences prominent in the area high schools. Church governance provides a high level of accountability. Many of the self effacing ministers and their families live in modest homes, in spite of the resources of their churches. Perfect? Without faults or problems? No. But, they also do not fit the stereotypes that are all too often presented as being the only possible reality. <br /><br />In my line of work, I have an opportunity to rub shoulders with some really exceptional leaders. Many of these people have incredible vision, and the talent to mentor to and motivate those whom they employ, in a way which fulfills mission statements, and produces value to society at large. If you want to think of the reward as ruling cities, these people are ruling various domains right now! They are imperfect as are all humans, but their talents are nothing short of remarkable, and they consistently exhibit ethics and humanity that far exceeds the righteousness of Armstrongism. It's out there, and it defies the stereotypes and strawmen. You just need greater exposure in order to find and appreciate it. Greater depth.<br /><br />Becoming focussed on a profile creates a prejudice, and actually retards growth and progress. A mentor or guru who would fix such images in your mind is actually setting you back, although the most comfortable path is often buying into his simplistic line of thought. When stereotypes are presented, dig deeper. Don't just hear them and stop. You may be surprised at what you find!<br /><br />BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602697337552385535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-30450215768643647962017-04-28T20:30:32.226-07:002017-04-28T20:30:32.226-07:00Doesn't Mussolini look a lot like the actor, t...Doesn't Mussolini look a lot like the actor, the late George C Scott?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-27628582441231101272017-04-28T20:08:04.528-07:002017-04-28T20:08:04.528-07:00Ah, good old Harold Camping- RIP!
Oh, and for you...Ah, good old Harold Camping- RIP!<br /><br />Oh, and for your entertainment there are a few ministries that still believe that Judgment Day began on May 21, 2011...<br /><br />http://www.may-212011.com/<br /><br />http://www.ebiblefellowship.com/<br /><br />http://bmius.org/<br /><br />LOL<br /><br />Ronco<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Ronconoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-52902861542002402202017-04-28T19:01:50.368-07:002017-04-28T19:01:50.368-07:00Correct, according to books on psychopathy, there ...Correct, according to books on psychopathy, there is no cure. Robert Hare's classic on psychopaths 'Without conscious' points out that they are self satisfied with their mental state, hence see no need to change.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-35536459911214422312017-04-28T15:28:05.912-07:002017-04-28T15:28:05.912-07:00Anonymous Anonymous said...
The biggest problem wi...Anonymous Anonymous said...<br />The biggest problem with narcissists and sociopaths is that THEY will never look at themselves thru and unfiltered lense. <br /><br />That's very true and the success rate for treating such a personality runs right at about zero. The best one can do is know they are being led around and out to see by one before they drown.<br /><br />DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-33802616868169997192017-04-28T12:54:47.230-07:002017-04-28T12:54:47.230-07:00The biggest problem with narcissists and sociopath...The biggest problem with narcissists and sociopaths is that THEY will never look at themselves thru and unfiltered lense. You can call someone a narcissist all you want but THEY will never see it. As a result their followers and loved ones will never see it either because the "charismatic leader" has spun their web so perfectly. I guarantee all of the minions reading this are saying to themselves "well that could never be Mr Charismatic Leader because...."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-9528323094939796232017-04-28T10:24:29.206-07:002017-04-28T10:24:29.206-07:00While reading through this post I could not help a...While reading through this post I could not help asking myself if I read something similar way back in 1974 -- when I became enamoured with HWA and his WWCG -- if I would have realized how well all the psychopathic traits identified in this post was applicable to the then PG, as well as the minister of our local congregation? I'm not sure, because I was only 17 years young and needed a roll model :-( <br /><br />But, then again, rather late then never... I sincerely hope that any of you practicing COG-gers who read this post, will think seriously about what it actually entails. I hope some of you, if not *all* will think seriously about what you've read... Peace :-) Arnohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11534713948983999720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-79116141782744581152017-04-28T10:05:06.244-07:002017-04-28T10:05:06.244-07:00Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey’s circus ju...Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey’s circus just recently announced that it will be shutting down this year. The dropping of elephants from the act led to a sharp decline in ticket sales. <br /><br />Maybe, we too will see an eventual closing down of the RING MASTERS in the COG, especially when their "WHITE ELEPHANTS", like auditoriums , jets, and campuses fail to generate enough "tithe tickets" to be sustainable. <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14910856904624749641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-71605204598722412972017-04-28T09:16:58.964-07:002017-04-28T09:16:58.964-07:00It's all about the narrative.
Are you certain...It's all about the narrative.<br /><br />Are you certain you want to follow it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-23626847067098737022017-04-28T08:12:40.533-07:002017-04-28T08:12:40.533-07:00It shouldn't, I suppose, come as quite as much...It shouldn't, I suppose, come as quite as much of a shock to me as it did, that my own family who remain in the COGs would be Drumpf supporters (even if they don't vote) since they already belong to a fascist church, worship a fascist god, and harbor delusional fantasies about a soon-coming fascist theocracy.<br /><br />Of course they don't like democratic forms of government, democratic values and ideals, or democratic institutions. Of course they don't believe the people ought to have a say in how they are governed. They believe the power ought to come down from above, not up from below.<br /><br />And they've already been putting up with incompetent, indecent, immoral leadership in their church for decades, so they're more than prepared to embrace the same coming from the federal government as well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com