tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post8609593953706500184..comments2024-03-29T05:22:27.348-07:00Comments on Banned by HWA! News and Observations About Armstrongism and the Church of God Movement: Herbert Armstrong's "Failed Business Man" Home Street: Klikitat Street in PortlandNO2HWAhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02018654662518613623noreply@blogger.comBlogger68125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-52587632424243932832016-05-20T16:27:48.744-07:002016-05-20T16:27:48.744-07:00The pastor of a church I've occasionally atten...The pastor of a church I've occasionally attended (non-ACOG, of course!) had given up the family home, setting the example of putting the equity into the fund raiser for the land and church building that finally got them out of local high school auditoriums. He once told us that he was not rich in the realm of physical wealth, but rich through his collection of experiences. When you think of that in proper perspective, the memory of our experiences and relationships is all we get to take with us when we go. It's pretty zen or Christlike when you think of it in that way.<br /><br />BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602697337552385535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-12530120232187958552016-05-20T15:46:12.572-07:002016-05-20T15:46:12.572-07:00The bottom line was that I made enough to live on ...The bottom line was that I made enough to live on and never thought it too much or very much. Parents always helped along the way with downpayments and a start in a first home before I realized that in the church owning a home was a joke because you'd be giving it up shortly to move to where no one asked you if you wanted to go. I later learned some who had clout could turn down moves without consequences. I was not one of those. I moved to places that hurt my kids in both culture and education. They don't know where to call home to this day and lots of other prices to be paid . I am sorry I ever heard of WCG and save for the sons and grandies who'd not be here without it, regret not listening to my stomach instead of my head almost from day one.DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-356973713128544992016-05-20T15:39:48.259-07:002016-05-20T15:39:48.259-07:00I believe that would be in the early towards the e...I believe that would be in the early towards the end in the early to late 90's. I recall having a savings of $1200 and doing all I could to keep it there. Rarely was I able to increase it. I also had my boys cullinary college bills (Johnson and Wales) which took me the ten years of the 90/s to pay off etc. Plus by then , fleet cars were gone and we had to use our own and get mileage. And yes, a working wife was considered a couple less than into the ministry and church. Only the rebellious worked lolDennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-40521733317208443232016-05-19T05:52:49.848-07:002016-05-19T05:52:49.848-07:00I worked in the IT department, starting in the mid...I worked in the IT department, starting in the mid '70s as a student. Not long after I started, there were several rounds of layoffs. A couple of months after one of them I saw one of the programmers who had been laid off. He said being laid off had turned out to be a blessing for him because he had found another job at a far better salary. So wages, at least in IT, never reached market levels.<br /><br />On the other hand, a year or two after this, several members of IT attended a conference. I think it was for IT departments of non-profit organizations. They met several people from a Seventh Day Adventist organization whose pay and benefits were so poor that it seemed by comparison that we were living like kings.<br /><br />You are right that I don't remember hearing the name of John Egbert. If your account is correct, he is the reason we weren't living like those poor SDAs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-67252715845240656782016-05-18T22:28:50.918-07:002016-05-18T22:28:50.918-07:00The original outside panel, if I recall correctly,...The original outside panel, if I recall correctly, was instrumental in setting HWA's salary, although the principle may have later set a new tone.<br /><br />Throughout the 1960s, employees of the WCG, and Ambassador College were underpaid, which of course was typical amongst the workers in many top-heavy non-profit organizations of that era. While commitment to the mission was a primary motivator, church employees who were brave and honest would discuss their constant needs for emergency budgets, and the monthly bill roulette they had to play with their credit cards.<br /><br />When John Egbert assumed the responsibilities over AC Press, he began to investigate the wage scale. Press workers tirelessly put in a lot of unpaid overtime to get the publications out. With his prior experience, John knew what resources to tap into to provide a solid basis for a realistic wage scale, and he had the unique skill set to sell that to his superiors. Once due diligence was performed, press workers received relief in the form of raises. This caused an immediate uproar amongst other department managers who considered their departments and their workers to be more vital to "the work" than pressmen and bindery workers. Suddenly, press workers were being paid at a higher rate than the editorial staff for the publications!<br /><br />What ended up happening was that John's work had created a miniature revolution. Because irrefutable evidence supporting justice in wages had been created, the eyes of the powerful had been opened, and wages for church workers began being indexed to wages in the secular world as determined by similar study groups to those that John had originally used. <br /><br />This was one time that the church managed to get something right, and it all traces back to the vision and courage of one man, a man whose name few remember today. I will always remember John. He was one of the good ones.<br /><br />BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602697337552385535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-40023317786944442582016-05-18T06:27:49.591-07:002016-05-18T06:27:49.591-07:00I heard it from several different people that an o...<i>I heard it from several different people that an outside panel recommended (not set) the pay scales. They sounded confident in their tone of voice when they said this.</i><br /><br />I also remember "confident sounding" things expressed as fact, and some were even preached from the pulpit-<br /><br />Example: That during the Feast, the previous night's hurricane had "split in two parts, gone around(avoiding) the tent, and then the two parts- after avoiding the tent- joined together again and went on it's way"! The minister even said this information had been verified by the National Weather Service. Of course, that minister's words were pure bunk and unverifiable.<br /><br />So, I'd be hesitant to accept as "fact" any claims made in a church setting, no matter how "confident sounding" the purveyors of such information may be.<br /><br />Reminds me of someone posting here about people being "raised from the dead in the name of Jesus" at some church in FL. Turns out he was told about it from confident sounding people in a megachurch setting, and even though there was zero corroborating evidence, the person blamed the lack of evidence on a "biased media" who would not want to report such stories.<br /><br />My point is to be careful about accepting statements which may be biased and emotionally charged by virtue of the religious setting from which they emanate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-78513590596091820282016-05-18T01:39:32.067-07:002016-05-18T01:39:32.067-07:00Even with a fleet vehicle and clothing and car all...Even with a fleet vehicle and clothing and car allowances, and expense account, it would have been very difficult to live on $30,000 per year in the late '90s. Ministers' wives generally were not permitted to work outside the house. Farmers in our area brought the ministers their first fruits, but some of that was nowhere near commercial quality, like the milk when the cows somehow got into the garlic patch. Pesticide-free fruit often had some "livestock" inside, just waiting to surprise you.<br /><br />But, I remember some of the upper classmen buying Petrocelli and HSM suits, knowing they were going to need them for the field. Some of these new ministers and their wives had college bills to pay off during their first few years in the field!<br /><br />BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602697337552385535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-62487954133888099472016-05-18T00:23:45.704-07:002016-05-18T00:23:45.704-07:00Dennis,
I was going to say. Don't waste your ...Dennis,<br /><br />I was going to say. Don't waste your precious time unless of course it has some redeeming value. I personally was present at the Hall of Ad while "A Single Man" was filmed. At the time I didn't realize the redeeming value of a movie about Gay issues in the office of the Upper Echelon. I am not gay at all, but somehow the whole experience at the set brought closure.<br /><br />1:14 <br />I completely respect your position.<br />To clarify. I came to my conclusions after multiple visits at Versailles, The Pyramids of Egypt and many many more places and edifices I really admire. All of this was built by slave labor, multiple and excessive taxation, force and extortion. <br />All my comments are directed at those slaves and peasants so that they might find some solace that millions of American tourists are admiring their work until this very day. Although they themselves would have probably dreamed of another path for their lives.<br /><br />That's all. <br />I am not defending the Pharao's at all. (although they seem to have good taste)<br />I am just in my personal convoluted way trying to honor those that made it possible.<br /><br />Perhaps that dilemma is also expressed in that famous movie.<br />"Bridge on the river Kwai"<br /><br />Do we sabotage the bridge. Or do we make the best possible as an expression of our personal values. Are we a victim or a winner in dire circumstances.<br />My family died at that railroad. So perhaps my aproach is too theoretical for those who experienced it. I apologize to all victims if I am mistaken.<br /><br />nck<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-69122965269452600912016-05-17T20:39:49.570-07:002016-05-17T20:39:49.570-07:0012.36 PM. I heard it from several different people...12.36 PM. I heard it from several different people that an outside panel recommended (not set) the pay scales. They sounded confident in their tone of voice when they said this. Still, I wouldn't mind a authoritative source.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-78150585331416922012016-05-17T17:47:52.169-07:002016-05-17T17:47:52.169-07:00Ok ..home. I'll have to wait to a Friday day ...Ok ..home. I'll have to wait to a Friday day off to get out to east Portland where the address change actually puts the home. It is 60 blocks east of the address given in the old lit etc. Better to head out that way when not during rush hour . Did not mean to mislead and did not know the address was bumped up to the far end of Klikitat . I am sure it is a more "humble" neighborhood and makes sense as the home where they had to move where GTA was born is just a few more streets to the East from there in the same area. Probably and area where finding a goldmine line of work like religion looked good! I find the local WCG history interesting for this short time but in the whole scheme of things I could not care less and life goes on.DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-71592844671207457952016-05-17T17:17:50.894-07:002016-05-17T17:17:50.894-07:00Will get a pic asap. It's far east n near airp...Will get a pic asap. It's far east n near airport and rough rush hour tripDennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-39794358432685875912016-05-17T16:25:59.984-07:002016-05-17T16:25:59.984-07:0012:36 PM:
I remember hearing (possibly from Stan R...12:36 PM:<br />I remember hearing (possibly from Stan Rader at an employee meeting in Pasadena) that they had hired a consulting firm to set HWA's salary (and possibly Stan's, I forget). The rationale was to make everything look above-board and to be in a position to pass any tax audits or other types of audits.<br /><br />I never heard that a consultant had set the pay scale for anyone else. I can't say it didn't happen but I'm certain that I was never told that the pay scale for my unordained position was set by outsiders.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-39771833824412519612016-05-17T15:42:03.527-07:002016-05-17T15:42:03.527-07:00That was my experience and never heard of that. Th...That was my experience and never heard of that. They based pay i thought on Rank in ministry. I was ordained an elder my first year out at 23 lol. A preaching elder ten months later. Bit more pay. Pastor was next bit over the next 24 years n pastoring 14 congregations i got stuck at preaching elder. After the manpower meeting i was told by ________"for you the sky is the limit" but obviously only on low clouds day lolDennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-45155601048023631242016-05-17T13:14:06.009-07:002016-05-17T13:14:06.009-07:00I find nck's logic convoluted and not logical....I find nck's logic convoluted and not logical. As far as the tithing money doing good, well that is debatable. Money is not static it moves and flows. It only ceases to move if it sits in a safety deposit box or is buried in the ground or hidden in a mattress. Otherwise it becomes part of the general economy. If I go to my local drug dealer and buy drugs, then what happens to the money? Maybe he buys a big car, so the car salesman makes a living and perhaps tithes to his church or sends money to charity. Or perhaps the drug dealer gives money to a hooker who then decides to donate to a homeless person on the side of the road, and he goes right back to the drug dealer or one of the minions working for him.<br /><br />I can't see that any of that tithe money did much good. Is trying to convince people of bs any good? At least some people had a good living standard for a while and some architects had work building buildings. Isn't that a typical trajectory for money? the poorer segment of society donating to the rich who are kind enough to employ them to labor while they sit on their arses and pontificate. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-27835605999562226242016-05-17T12:36:31.769-07:002016-05-17T12:36:31.769-07:00Dennis, when ?I was a attending member in the 1980...Dennis, when ?I was a attending member in the 1980s, I heard that the church had a independent outside panel determine the wage rates of ministers. I heard that their pay recommendations were based on people with the same education and experience, on the outside of the church. So surely minister pay rates would have been far greater than 30K dollars. Am I missing something?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-8668901746584003802016-05-17T12:27:11.937-07:002016-05-17T12:27:11.937-07:008.01 AM. One of the biggest false claims taught by...8.01 AM. One of the biggest false claims taught by the tele evangelists today, is that a relationship with Jesus with cure people of all their mental problems. I hear it all the time. Millions of people study psychology, programs like Dr Phil are very popular, bookstores have a self help section, why even Tony Soprano went to a shrink. But according to these religious salesman, this is all unnecessary. This isn't to say that prayer and a belief that God is looking after you doesn't have some mental benefits. But it will not 'cure' deep mental problems. God does not clean people up, or solve mental problems, rather we do. This is because God cannot and will not make decisions for people. People who claim otherwise are under the spell of group think. Personal experience proves this. Certain mental hang ups that I had only disappeared after reading up on the topic, and coming up with mental exercisers that wiped them out. No amount of prayer or bible study alleviated the problem. The existence of wacko ministers and wacko church members is another proof of this. We cure ourselves. It's called over coming. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-16832248249787006852016-05-17T11:53:03.206-07:002016-05-17T11:53:03.206-07:00So any complaining kid that they didn’t get an edu...So any complaining kid that they didn’t get an education because of their parents tithing has every right to complain. I am only saying that a lot of that money was well spend after the parents decided to separate from that money. I am not saying that was the best ever decision.<br /><br />I do not support a corrupt organisation. I have tried to paint a picture that reflects the truth. Every now and then I ask if this board is satire. Than I get rebuked that it is all very serious. Well don't expect satire in return then. If your parents decided to not vaccinate you for polio than that sure is a problem. I was lucky my mom had a pastor who had been a doctor. He anwered that is was my mothers call to decide to vaccinate or not. After 20 protestant calvinist kids got polio in my area my mother decided to go with the vaccination. She has been an upright member for 50 years now. Do I recognize the hurt of other children (now adults) in wcg who fell victim to such disease. Yes I do. I do recognize the stripes that BB recieved. I also know of many church areas that believe and acted completely different from the directives from HQ. Sometimes even obliged by local national law that did not allow for such stupidity.<br /><br />Look I am only correcting wrong or colored statements now and then. <br /><br />Even Dennis has proven to be wrong on the house. Does that matter. Yes actually it does. Again a wrong picture of hwa is painted. But I do like Dennis a lot. I love him like a brother and admire his effort to live in that area. The ultimate karma. He can redeem himself with a new picture of the actual house. <br /><br />nckAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-12908944595335663522016-05-17T11:52:39.777-07:002016-05-17T11:52:39.777-07:00Kevin,
I’m sorry. I completely missed your last po...Kevin,<br />I’m sorry. I completely missed your last posting. Probably because contrary to custom I was being referred to as intelligent. My postscanning brain didn’t connect that with my persona.<br /><br />Ok. <br />You ask about my seriousness about points. As I remember it was Gotoh and Rader who felt the need to “support” the attendance numbers. Many wrong assumptions are made about hwa. For instance on all the blogs people talk about the yaght that was hired in Monaco. HWA didn’t even go on that yaght as he was working and typing his articles. He was very disappointed about the cost of the yaght too.<br /><br />Although there are probably many wrongs on HWA. Most people have no idea of the amount of control that was exerted from Wiltshire. In all seriousness. In the seventies HWA was away from HQ for 350 days per year. <br /><br />All of the numerical information in the letter is clearly prepared by an assistant. You must be aware of the manner in which executives are briefed. Do you really think that an executive with the persona of hwa would be concerned about how many people fitted on the balcony like Adair. Of course not, they are generalists, they need the general impression from their assistants. And indeed the copywriter was hwa, since that was his profession. HWA was clearly enthusiastic that more people than expected attended, but he went into a fit when he discovered these people were paid to attend. I am even surprised Adair made a career after showing himself a little man, instead of a generalist with executive potential. (or am I mistaken and did he only make a career during the Tkach years, when the little, honey I shrunk the church, people took over.)<br /><br />I am not even making the case that an advertising executive would make that actually more than 24.000 people attended since there seemed to be “a constant flow” of people.<br />In the same manner advertising agents claim that the PT reached 30 million people per month at its peak. Since every copy was touched or read by three people on average.<br />In the same manner it can be claimed that even though wcg had only 150.000 members at its peak, in reality some 500.000 people “had been in constant flow” over the years. That is how advertising people think. That is how they get paid by their corporate customers. Well at least I was paid 40 million dollars that way by my customers. <br /><br />My second point about the tithe money still at work was in no way intended to exculpate the church about any extorsion of money that might have occurred. (Although I never had any request for money that I felt was extorsion.) (Like the exagerated claims that 35% tithing was required while in reality it was close to 12% I gather from those who made the calculation on one of these boards.<br /><br />My remarks were merely directed to Dennis who said that he had coped with depression or others who might feel that ALL their dollars came to naught. My only point is that those dollars did and are doing good things until today. I was not talking about the manner in which they separated from the members paycheck. <br /><br />I was there when my parents turned down every single handicapped person soliciting money at the door, while tithing and hwa donating that money to other causes. I am just saying those causes were OK. I only hold a grudge against hwa because he forgot to mention the people who donated that money and that it was not apostle hwa’s money. Even the Concert series that originally were intended to rake in that money were making losses after dissidents complained about wcg in the jewish la community. <br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-32892420049618631572016-05-17T08:01:20.209-07:002016-05-17T08:01:20.209-07:00On page 6... it says, “Not a soul was seen leaving... <i>On page 6... it says, “Not a soul was seen leaving until the end.” Each night there was a continuous flow of people leaving... I feel the readers of the letter (brethren and co-workers) are being misled. I can’t agree with the “salesman” idea.</i><br /><br />Yes, Herbert was a salesman all the way, making exaggerated claims to give himself status and lure in the money. Today, you can see the same types of exaggerated claims from televangelists such as Joel Osteen, Mike Murdock, Creflo Dollar, Joyce Meyer, etc.<br />These con artists think it's ok to repeat unproven (or invented out of whole cloth) claims if it "brings people to Jesus" and (perhaps more importantly) brings dollars into their pockets.<br /><br />Of course, one might defend such lies by rightly saying that it's 'Biblical', and that God lies by proxy in order to deceive people to His own ends.<br /><br />God's a tricky fellow. In fact, being God, He's the trickiest!<br />Since He's only lying "by proxy", that makes it 'A-OK!' - Plus, I'm sure there's no untruths in the Book He's given us, which is surely the "Word of God" that He's gone to great lengths to make sure is 100 percent accurate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-14877820675784038642016-05-17T07:33:49.174-07:002016-05-17T07:33:49.174-07:00PS thanks for the standard "let them eat cake...PS thanks for the standard "let them eat cake". DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-12084044650218303292016-05-17T07:27:20.329-07:002016-05-17T07:27:20.329-07:00I had a lease car for church and paid a monthly pa...I had a lease car for church and paid a monthly part of it for any personal use. Rents and house came out of pay like anyone else. Sometimes they paid mortgage for a home on market in a transfer and repaid it to church after sale. Church dolled out 2T once in spring n then fall and was taxable income. Ministers all got tithe checked. By late 90's I personally was paid around 30k per year. Tithed n offeringed about 4K of that. Made much less when pastoring 3 churches, then 2 then one large at the end. I found out in time what inner circle minister with contacts made and i was not in that circle. I once estimated I "inspired" the giving of millions in 14 congregations. Never made more than my dad did at Kodak and they cared for all my brother's state hospital care for 22 years before state took over. They also met dad's retirement agreements n benefits to his passing st 98 even though Kodak had gone mostly down the tubes, the difference being Kodak had some worthy and real product to offer i supposeDennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-25059437437533206272016-05-17T03:29:15.936-07:002016-05-17T03:29:15.936-07:0030 year mortgages did not exist in the 1920s times...30 year mortgages did not exist in the 1920s times. Usually it was 50% down with a 5 or 10 year note. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14910856904624749641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-28261676538529755772016-05-17T03:26:53.230-07:002016-05-17T03:26:53.230-07:00Annon at 8:16 provided excellent information about...Annon at 8:16 provided excellent information about the address changing. The Armstrong house was much more humble than the posted Klickitat house, and was only 1100 square feet. <br /><br />Looking at the price history, it appears that downtown Portland real estate has really boomed in price, with this $300k house being worth less than $200k just a mere 6 years ago. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14910856904624749641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-76567748349105072242016-05-17T02:23:10.067-07:002016-05-17T02:23:10.067-07:00Dennis, didn't ministers have paid for church ...Dennis, didn't ministers have paid for church cars, and church paid rents? So why are the ministers financially broke? Didn't they save for their old age, By contrast, church members have gone on financial diets, walking around with holes in their shoes, in a attempt to pay off their homes and have financial security in their old age. Why should anyone have sympathy for the ministers financial plight. Let them eat cake!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-68903551629395087092016-05-17T00:52:38.158-07:002016-05-17T00:52:38.158-07:00-At least DD has got us involved in some nice arch...-At least DD has got us involved in some nice archeology project. I haven't had so much fun since discovering that Vernon Street was renamed into the Mason's St John's street right after the Auditorium was finished. The old St John's being a mile down.<br /><br />I still contend that hwa mostly sincerely spoke the truth (as he understood it) (that was the truth compounded in his own brain) It is far more difficult for someone to be poor if you have been rich before. Especially salesmen have very short memory and are prone to compare circumstances.<br /><br />-Message to DD. If in your current quest you are interested in real estate or architecture that directly relates to your genetic and therefore perhaps true inner spirit I would refer you to study and observe the Seattle Central library.<br /><br /><br /><br />Yes, it would have been nice if Jesus name had been stamped on our charity. Unfortunately that was never the stated purpose. I dislike hwa for having used his own name to often, not for donating it to the great causes. Now I focus on the causes or great institutions. oxford china chair etc and medicine these donations went to, alive and kicking while hwa is largely forgotten.<br /><br />Leaders that are still alive?<br />-The American King Bhumibol of Thailand<br />-Current president of the State of Israel<br />-The lovely American/Texan Liza Hallaby doing good works<br />-Some four years ago the minister of Education and Technology of Japan (AC graduate)<br />-Mubarak is treated well after the US changed their mind and reversed the military regime again<br />-Belgian princess still awards top academics from a foundation listing hwa and rader as founders. Belgium just sent the requested F16 to Syria in support of USA.<br />etc etc<br /><br />But I'm not talking about people, I was talking institutions like WWF, UN, UNESCO, International Court of Justice etc etc et all recipients of part of our tithe dollars and still working toward the One World/Humanity goal. The millenial goal that was advertised as being the reason for solliciting the tithes in the first place, since Jesus supposedly had the same goals as the Rockefeller policy paper. (a family who btw donated the NY real estate for the UN and whose private funds are out of fossil fuel and into solar, hint hint) <br /><br />nck<br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com