tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post8614425484510922040..comments2024-03-29T03:57:21.878-07:00Comments on Banned by HWA! News and Observations About Armstrongism and the Church of God Movement: Living Church of God: Gerald Weston the New Dictator in ChiefNO2HWAhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02018654662518613623noreply@blogger.comBlogger109125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-79548416029003070922015-12-29T06:59:11.413-08:002015-12-29T06:59:11.413-08:00Kudos to Banned for outing this story over a week ...Kudos to Banned for outing this story over a week before Meredith told his followers. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-88663050105894313392015-12-27T17:44:29.667-08:002015-12-27T17:44:29.667-08:00Since the bible is so contradictory, depending upo...Since the bible is so contradictory, depending upon which parts of it you study and research carefully, you'll come away with very different opinions. Which is why there are ~40,000 different christianities that can't agree about what their god wants. Seems to me like the christian god is the author of little else but confusion!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-38545513269331081862015-12-27T10:51:50.137-08:002015-12-27T10:51:50.137-08:00Anon 3:29, you are pushing your perceptions as fac...Anon 3:29, you are pushing your perceptions as fact. Some of us have a very different opinion based on careful study and research.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06884498391956732954noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-67276039626173417222015-12-26T15:47:26.760-08:002015-12-26T15:47:26.760-08:00Hey, I missed an important sound-bite.
God’s way ...Hey, I missed an important sound-bite.<br /><br />God’s way is the way of outsourcing.<br />• The torments of Job, carried out by Satan, who was subcontracting for the Lord.<br />Retired Profnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-33833596651703861112015-12-26T14:28:00.943-08:002015-12-26T14:28:00.943-08:00Anonymous December 24 at 5:55 AM, you have an inte...Anonymous December 24 at 5:55 AM, you have an interesting way of reading the Bible. I love it!<br /><br />Like other fundamentalists, you take it as a given that your god gave humanity the Bible as a complete, consistent guide to how we should run our lives. Somehow or another, he managed to arrange things so that an anthology including diverse literary genres, composed over many generations by many authors, working in different cultural environments, and afflicted with different mixtures of individual quirks, nevertheless expresses a coherent set of moral and spiritual principles. Most advocates of your view go to great lengths to explain that obvious contradictions in the text are only apparent, and do not actually clash at all. Refreshingly, you ignore such complications and go straight to the single story that you maintain holds the key to the whole Bible: the parable of the talents, in which employees are chided for keeping money safe by hiding it and rewarded for investing it and drawing interest. <br /><br />That story was a metaphor meant to illustrate the principle that Christians must amplify and enrich their character by building on whatever spiritual gifts they possess. In the technical jargon of rhetorical studies, that essential meaning is the "tenor." It is carried by the "vehicle," which in this case is the act of investing money. It might be easier to see the relationship if we call the tenor “product” and refer to the vehicle as “package.” This leads to what I admire most about your stratagem. Not only do you ignore nearly the whole Bible and condense it into one simple metaphoric story; in that story you ignore the tenor and hold up for our admiring gaze the vehicle. You imply that the package is worth more than the product. What you explicitly tell us is, “God’s way is the way of trade.”<br /><br />Like I said, I love it. <br /><br />I love it so much, it inspires me to look for other scriptures to corroborate that lesson and amplify it. You and your Chamber of Commerce friends get impatient with long, involved explanations and prefer the simplicity of a single sound bite, but bear with me. Here is a list of additional sound bites that can help make your case for capitalism. Consider it the biblical equivalent of “news you can use.”<br /><br />1. God’s way is the way of showing who’s boss. <br />• Adam and Eve, brought to subjection for disobeying a command they were expected to disobey.<br />• Job, tormented to demonstrate that he shouldn’t get uppity and ask difficult questions, rewarded only after knuckling under.<br />• Abraham, ordered to slash his son’s throat just because. (This example should ease the consciences of bosses who oppress their employees merely to satisfy their sadistic urges.) <br />2. God’s way is the way of unfair advantage. <br />• Jacob, catching Esau in a weak moment and trading him lentil soup to get his inheritance.<br />3. God’s way is the way of fraud. <br />• Jacob (again), impersonating his brother to trick his father into validating his unfairly acquired birthright.<br />4. God’s way is the way of downsizing. <br />• The Great Flood, imposed on a workforce that had grown unruly and unproductive.<br />5. God’s way is the way of genocide, because trade cannot be profitable except under the aegis of business-friendly government.<br />• The plagues of Egypt.<br />• Jericho, turned to rubble because it stood in the way of Israelite progress, along with several other Canaanite communities, as recounted in Deuteronomy.<br />• The Jebusite wars, in Judges 19-20. <br /><br />These are just examples. You can find many other Bible stories that support capitalist practices currently in vogue. Furthermore, interested entrepreneurs may find other helpful hints for maximizing profits by studying the Prophets.<br /><br />Retired Profnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-62220427957782151792015-12-26T12:15:17.768-08:002015-12-26T12:15:17.768-08:00Official: Weston to be President and Chief Operati...Official: Weston to be President and Chief Operating Officer from August 2016 (RCM sermon - live streaming from Charlotte on Dec, 16). Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-29957358360729703342015-12-26T07:33:00.722-08:002015-12-26T07:33:00.722-08:00Priam – I just did a poll of COGers (11 in LCG) – ...Priam – I just did a poll of COGers (11 in LCG) – they all said that salvation depends on your works. However, I did look up LCG’s statement of belief on salvation and was surprised that it sounds better than I would have ever given them credit for but, within it are the clues as to how/why this statement does not exactly jibe with the teaching of the leaders and the beliefs of the members.<br /><br />This is LCG’s statement of belief on Salvation: Salvation is God’s gift by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Titus 3:5; 2 Corinthians 2:15; Romans 5:10). Upon repentance and baptism, God justifies us from our past sins. We then begin an ongoing process of "being saved" as we grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ (2 Peter 3:18). Our salvation will be complete at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). In observing the biblical Festivals and Sabbaths, we come to understand more deeply God’s plan of salvation, and the steps toward salvation that we take as Christians. <br /><br />Okay, they got the gift lingo correct from the start but, the statement ends with the steps (works) a member has to perform. In Armstrongism, if the gift idea is mentioned at all, it is always something someone has to work for – in that case, Armstrongism re-writes a crucial point in the plan of salvation by making it not a real gift with strings attached.<br /> <br />In the second sentence, the meaning of justification is mangled by the error that it only covers past sins. Justification is the New Covenant expression of Atonement – it gives righteous standing and the ability to be with God forever. There is no biblical limitation that relegates justification to past sins. Armstrongism will not cover this topic because they do not want their members to understand it.<br /><br />Armstronism overlooks verses like Ephesians 2:5 and Ephesians 2:8 because they depict being saved in the past tense – as in it is a done deal. Also, these verses poignantly state that salvation is all grace and zero you. Any statement of belief on salvation from a credible Christian entity would include these verses and elaboration on the concept of grace. Instead, LCG only mentions grace in this second sentence in a despicable manner that makes it sound like the person has to do works so that they can grow in grace and knowledge. Memories of COG teachings about needing to pray and study for an hour a day or you won’t make it to COG salvation come to mind. <br /><br />The third sentence is a display of Armstrongism designed to enslave people to tithing and writhing to the leadership because the people can never be sure if they will be saved in the end. That’s because in Armstrongism, salvation is not a gift but is works based with a final outcome determined by one’s works. Again, Ephesians 2:5-8 displays the past tense, it’s a done deal, aspect of salvation that Armstrongism rejects because it won’t keep the people in the shackles.<br /><br />The last sentence does not literally say you must keep the holy days to be saved but, the Armstronism thinking and believing require it. That is what sermons are preached on and the members believe. So, COG salvation is only based on the works people perform, not on grace – which is based on giving us the rewards earned by the works Jesus performed. Again, the steps referred to in this last sentence are a clue that COG salvation will only be granted to those who work, work, work, and you can never be sure if you did enough, so you had better send in more money while you’re still breathing.<br /><br />Priam, COG theology is not New Covenant compliant and for you to suggest that we do not understand what COGs believe is proof of your deception. I am still hoping you can provide links to COG sermons or booklets on topics such as: salvation by grace, Jesus as Savior, justification, sanctification, glorification. Given the weight Christians-so-called place on John 3:16, surely there must be an entire sermon preached on it, at some time in all of COGdom, that you can share.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-66757608512156812752015-12-26T00:32:05.293-08:002015-12-26T00:32:05.293-08:003:29, pushing opinion as fact was part of the mini...3:29, pushing opinion as fact was part of the ministerial training at <br />Ambassador College. In fact, it was part of the UAP (Universal Ambassador Personality) which all students were expected to adapt and make their own. Those who mastered it were sent into the field. The problem today is that the UAP was intended be used only in pushing HWA's picked and chosen elements from the Bible, HWA's officially approved conspiracy theories, and the works of HWA's discredited historians such as Hislop and Velikovsky. Although it actually spills over into a person's entire life, really the UAP was never intended by its originators to be used in advancing other than the HWAcaca.<br /><br />The footnotes in a good study Bible deal with much of what has been continuously discussed about the conflicts and controversies which supposedly invalidate Paul, although why anyone would want to throw out the character in the Bible who actually rescues us (via Romans and Galatians) from Armstrongism is incomprehensible to me. HWA always filtered Paul through the Old Testament, giving Paul's words the opposite meaning. I don't believe HWA even knew that Paul did not write some of the books that were attributed to him.<br /><br />People harp on things in the hopes that others will embrace their new "understanding". They like to teach. Others accepting their ideas provides some apparently needed validation. We had one old guy on another forum who couldn't discuss anything other than this One God (Arianism) nonsense. It got to the point that that was in every comment he made. And there are others whose every post involved new, non-HWA-approved conspiracy theories. One topic controls some people's lives, and it is usually about something that is unknowable in the first place. But, I guess that everyone has their own perception of balance or equillibrium. As John Lennon sang, "Whatever gets you through the night...."<br /><br />BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602697337552385535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-90330440635121413132015-12-24T05:55:04.831-08:002015-12-24T05:55:04.831-08:00DennisCDiehl, my story is very different to yours....DennisCDiehl, my story is very different to yours. When I started attending the WWGC I barely knew my bible or what to say in prayer. I feel embarrassed by how backward my prayers were. However unlike yourself, it was obvious that God was answering my prayers. I acted on what I knew, and God responded. No person can fake that. Today I am a stay at home Christian. God confirmed my suspicion that Armstrong betrayed his training in capitalism via advertising, and embraced collectivism instead. Hence the 'give and get' bull rather than trade. I believe the man is loved because of such lies rather than telling the truth. Notice how unity, motivation by service, human nature needs to change, people don't get it, are all communist themes or expressions. He does not have Gods approval.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-4760660643185958042015-12-24T03:29:20.023-08:002015-12-24T03:29:20.023-08:00DENNIS...You keep trying to push your opinion and ...DENNIS...You keep trying to push your opinion and perception of the bible and the Apostle Paul as fact when it is only as I said, your opinion and perception and you can't see past that. My opinion and perception tells me you are totally wrong because I believe what the bible says. Just because it doesn't come right out and say how Paul became an apostle doesn't mean he wasn't one, if the bible says he was then he was, I don't need to know how or who anointed him or whatever. My guess is you are an atheist because of certain things the bible tells us and you reject it. If you are an Athiest that's your business, but really, quit trying to push your opinion and perception as fact.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-78640103068451132552015-12-23T06:39:37.295-08:002015-12-23T06:39:37.295-08:00I would not begin to present myself as a theologic...I would not begin to present myself as a theological scholar. My credentials for such are non existent. I grew up in a very Calvinistic and Dutch religious environment. As children we memorized whole chapters of the Bible and by the time I went to AC I knew more of what the Bible said, not meant perhaps or any of the background on who and what, than most of the students that were my peers. AC wove a plausible tale for me and a context to put it in that the Orthodox Presbyterian faith did not. They seemed to care little about most of it but was a nice place and way to grow up. No abuse for sure. <br /><br />As a thinker more and less of an emotionally religious person, long story short, I studied my way out of the story. The evidence for the Christ of Paul, the God become man and then man back to God is implausable and simply base on faith. Facts, for me, eventually trump faith and they did. The evidence for a human gospel and historical Jesus is weak and in the realm, for me, as doubtful but interesting . In my studies of the character of Paul I find two Paul's. The cooperative and team playing one in Acts, written by a fan named "Luke" and the nasty, self absorbed , ugly, short an lousy speaker, by his own admission Paul of his own authentic writings. Not all books attributed to Paul and others are actually written by them or him. <br /><br />I realize that this is my theological journey is my own as is that of others. There will never be consensus on any of this. To be quoted scriptures to prove something to me or to assure me that "God says.." simply does not work for me because the words are clearly written by men telling me that they think they know what God would or did say. If there is a God, let it speak for itself and leave no doubt. But there , to me is great doubt on so many things I was brought up to accept as fact. The Sunday School version is false, plain and simple, to me. It is that version most people argue over and for me that argument is long over .<br /><br />We all get a bit defensive for our own views and conclusions as evidenced by these threads on so many topics. But in the end, it is fine for each to be where they are because we all have had different backgrounds, upbringings and came to the Church in different ways and times for many different reasons with many different reactions to the ultimate debacle it became.DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-25234787389923538522015-12-23T06:38:31.489-08:002015-12-23T06:38:31.489-08:00I would not begin to present myself as a theologic...I would not begin to present myself as a theological scholar. My credentials for such are non existent. I grew up in a very Calvinistic and Dutch religious environment. As children we memorized whole chapters of the Bible and by the time I went to AC I knew more of what the Bible said, not meant perhaps or any of the background on who and what, than most of the students that were my peers. AC wove a plausible tale for me and a context to put it in that the Orthodox Presbyterian faith did not. They seemed to care little about most of it but was a nice place and way to grow up. No abuse for sure. <br /><br />As a thinker more and less of an emotionally religious person, long story short, I studied my way out of the story. The evidence for the Christ of Paul, the God become man and then man back to God is implausable and simply base on faith. Facts, for me, eventually trump faith and they did. The evidence for a human gospel and historical Jesus is weak and in the realm, for me, as doubtful but interesting . In my studies of the character of Paul I find two Paul's. The cooperative and team playing one in Acts, written by a fan named "Luke" and the nasty, self absorbed , ugly, short an lousy speaker, by his own admission Paul of his own authentic writings. Not all books attributed to Paul and others are actually written by them or him. <br /><br />I realize that this is my theological journey is my own as is that of others. There will never be consensus on any of this. To be quoted scriptures to prove something to me or to assure me that "God says.." simply does not work for me because the words are clearly written by men telling me that they think they know what God would or did say. If there is a God, let it speak for itself and leave no doubt. But there , to me is great doubt on so many things I was brought up to accept as fact. The Sunday School version is false, plain and simple, to me. It is that version most people argue over and for me that argument is long over .<br /><br />We all get a bit defensive for our own views and conclusions as evidenced by these threads on so many topics. But in the end, it is fine for each to be where they are because we all have had different backgrounds, upbringings and came to the Church in different ways and times for many different reasons with many different reactions to the ultimate debacle it became.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-51971969155424334382015-12-23T03:10:55.879-08:002015-12-23T03:10:55.879-08:00Priam said:
"Thousands of people who adore J...<b>Priam said:</b><br /><br />"<i>Thousands of people who adore Jesus Christ, our Savior, in deep gratitude for what He has done for us. People who are <b>striving to allow Jesus Christ to live his life in us through the Holy Spirit</b>. People who have been freed from mortality and await with joyous expectation the receipt of eternal life at the resurrection at the return of Jesus Christ. People who are honoring our Lord and Master by striving to live righteously now in a way which will be pleasing to God. That is the fruit of the work of Herbert Armstrong as <b>it has touched my life</b>. I am sorry for those of you who have not experienced these blessings.</i><br /><br />Prior to sending probes to other planets, people claimed to be receiving ESP "transmissions" from both Martians and Venusians with cold-war oriented warnings and messages of hope, and I am sure there were more than a few rubes who believed them. Then we sent a probe to Mars and it was revealed to be a desolate planet much more inhospitable to life than had previously been understood, and subsequently, people stopped claiming that they were receiving ESP messages from Martians, however the ESP messages from Venusians continued unabated. Then we sent a probe to Venus and it was revealed to be an even more inhospitable environment, and subsequently, the ESP messages from Venusians also stopped. These days, people still claim to receive ESP messages, but now from aliens supposedly inhabiting much more distant planets.<br /><br />1) What is the difference between a "prophet" or "apostle" of some "god" and one of these poor schmucks who claimed to receive ESP messages from aliens? Aren't gods just examples of a specific class of pre-industrial aliens?<br /><br />2) Can we learn anything from the patent failures of people claiming to receive ESP messages from aliens? I guess some people can't.<br /><br />Personally, I am sorry for anyone who claims that an alien is parasitically "<i>living his life</i>" within your body via ESP, or by any other fanciful means. I am also sorry for anyone who proudly claims to be one of the rubes who feels that the "work" one of these poor schmucks, like Jesus, the "apostle" Paul, or the "apostle" Herbert who all claimed to have received ESP messages from aliens, has "touched their life." You're as looney as Giorgio Tsoukalos or Erich von Däniken.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-40165164180336046342015-12-22T10:44:52.610-08:002015-12-22T10:44:52.610-08:00Dennis, I certainly did not intend to come across ...Dennis, I certainly did not intend to come across as condescending. I meant "So sad" (I assume that's what you are referring to) literally. It is sad (provide your own substitute synonym if you wish) that you who have studied much and present yourself as a scholar cannot explain the apparent discrepancy between the two passages you quote. <br /><br />I note that in your answer to me do not refute my explanation by an analysis of your actual quotes. In your first quote from Galatians Paul is saying he is not seeking a personal following and in your Corinthians quote he is saying he wants to win people for salvation in Christ. The differences in his meaning in those two quotes is obvious and the two passages are not at odds as you present them to be. Priamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-15098550929027505372015-12-22T10:14:26.348-08:002015-12-22T10:14:26.348-08:00Dear Priam,
That answers my questions - thanks.Dear Priam,<br /><br />That answers my questions - thanks.Assistant Coffee Makernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-79390144704932792452015-12-22T09:59:58.394-08:002015-12-22T09:59:58.394-08:00Non sequitur. What does the passage have to do wit...Non sequitur. What does the passage have to do with people presenting "fruits" in a deceptive manner?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-10290761857056438102015-12-22T09:38:09.481-08:002015-12-22T09:38:09.481-08:00Sometimes you just have to throw back your head an...Sometimes you just have to throw back your head and laugh at all of the irony we've all experienced in our journey that was often tainted by Armstrongism.<br /><br />In his Christmas booklet, HWA warned about the dangers of teaching children about Santa Clause. In HWA's original story, he told of a young boy who had discovered that there is no Santa Clause. To hear HWA tell it, the young boy tearfully told one of his friends, "Hey, I'm going to be checking into this Jesus Christ business, as well!" <br /><br />1) I wish my parents and the church had lied to me about Santa Clause, rather than lying to me about 1972 and the Germans.<br /><br />2). Isn't it ironic that the bogusness and lack of other than imaginary fulfillment of HWA's religion has caused even some of his former ministers to be "checking into this Jesus Christ business" as well?<br /><br />They always told us that people who didn't have the so-called restored doctrines could not possibly be depended upon to know "the truth". So, depend on them we did. Obviously, HWA did not have the truth concerning the so-called national identity of our melting pot, or its prophetic destiny, or the correct timeline of the events. But, people still rely on all of these errors just because the people perpetuating them keep what they think is the sabbath, and the other doctrines.<br /><br />This is an imperfect world, folks! Nobody can be relied upon as a source for 100% truth. Don't ever put all of your eggs in one church's basket.<br /><br />BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602697337552385535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-44825290349474743832015-12-22T08:35:00.651-08:002015-12-22T08:35:00.651-08:00on December 21, 2015 at 6:37 PM
DennisCDiehl said....on December 21, 2015 at 6:37 PM<br />DennisCDiehl said...<br /><br />"Is that so hard to understand?"<br /><br />Well, when you put it like that,yes!<br />I'm a strong supporter of the KISS principle and firmly believe that King Solomon put it so very simply when he wrote in "Ecc 12:13 All has been heard; the end of the matter is: Fear God [revere and worship Him, knowing that He is] and keep His commandments, for this is the whole of man [the full, original purpose of his creation, the object of God's providence, the root of character, the foundation of all happiness, the adjustment to all inharmonious circumstances and conditions under the sun] and the whole [duty] for every man." <i>[Amp]</i><br /><br />cheers<br />ralph.fRalphhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09094056276430807523noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-63751985204336687722015-12-22T07:30:01.265-08:002015-12-22T07:30:01.265-08:00Priam...Paul never in is alleged career "eshe...Priam...Paul never in is alleged career "eshewed a personal following." In Galatians, he makes it very clear he is his own man, "Christ" gives him his marching orders directly (Schizophrenia?) and would tell anyone to follow him and not the "reputed pillars" who made no difference to him nor taught him anything. <br /><br />The Apostle Paul became an Apostle as mysteriously as Dave Pack and being "called from the womb" as opposed to the account of the Damascus Road would mean to him psychologically he was the man to follow. To follow him as he "followed Christ" meant "Follow me only and I will keep you informed as to what Christ tells me personally." Kinda like HWA and just about every splinter an sliver self appointed leader. <br /><br />If Paul was Saul, the Christian killer he claims to be, I imagine the victims would have preferred he figured out he was called from the womb a bit sooner.<br /><br />To the rest of "you readers", Paul the Mythmaker is much more interesting and leads to critical thinking about important topics such as how following the "called by Christ" types can determine the quality of the rest of your own life and that of your family. I doubt those young folk who took Paul's advice to remain single and only to "avoid fornication" because time was short, or never married which Paul thought was the best because of course no one would marry the him anyway, regretted his Christ inspired advice.<br /><br />On a personal note Priam, Thank you for your condescending pat on the head. It makes me want to understand everything the way you do. :)DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-38167219734266206082015-12-22T03:26:04.748-08:002015-12-22T03:26:04.748-08:00Assistant Coffee Maker 6:14am
Since your two ques...Assistant Coffee Maker 6:14am<br /><br />Since your two questions are obviously intended as 'hooks' which will then allow you to voice your opinion why don't you just go ahead and tell us what you think? Priamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-15265295726166275692015-12-22T03:16:55.362-08:002015-12-22T03:16:55.362-08:00So sad, Dennis, that you cannot discern the differ...So sad, Dennis, that you cannot discern the difference between Paul's purposes in Gals 1: 10 quote and the I Cor 1:19 -23 quote. Once you fathom those motives any contradiction between the two passages disappears. <br /><br />To the rest of you readers - can you understand that in Gal 1 Paul was eschewing seeking a personal following. In I Cor 1 Paul is talking about winning and bringing people to the salvation that is available through Christ? <br /><br />RE Dennis' note that Paul's account of his early ministry contradicts Luke's account in Acts may I commend to you "A Harmony of the Life of St. Paul" by Frank J Goodwin. It will help you to understand what Dennis Diehl clearly does not.Priamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-83282457311493558882015-12-21T19:01:57.053-08:002015-12-21T19:01:57.053-08:00Ralph - perhaps smoking while you read scripture c...Ralph - perhaps smoking while you read scripture could help you shake the Armstrongite fault of lifting a juicy bit out of the context you are hell bent on ignoring. It is crazy how you all uniformly do that - or is it demonic influence?<br /><br />Priam - most recently, a life-long COGer told me that salvation is based on grace plus works. That is after I had cited verses stating that salvation is absolutely not by works, as he had earlier been insisting. See, that is proof Armstrongites can learn!. Most Armstrongites will no agree that works are not required for salvation. And, they will cite the litany of expected verses (out of context) to prove their beliefs. You will not hear any COG t.v. personalities talking about salvation as a free gift, or see that concept in print in one of their magazines. <br /><br />You have your non-biblical conditions to salvation while God demands one hundred percent obedience. Your repentance is not getting you there. You say Jesus is your Savior, can you post a link to a COG sermon or booklet that explains the COG position on that concept? <br /><br />One COGer recently told me that Jon 3:16 is not the gospel and they don't need to be preaching that to the deceived world. <br /><br />Priam - you can try to whitewash COG theology and it's long, dead history but, it still stinks!<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-69617180898078235032015-12-21T18:55:18.376-08:002015-12-21T18:55:18.376-08:00Tibits on Paul's view of himself and deceptive...<br />Tibits on Paul's view of himself and deceptive, uncooperative and self absorbed thinking?<br /><br />Galatians 1:10 Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.<br /><br />(This spoken by the same person who said: <br /><br />I Cor 9:19-2 "Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."<br /><br />Ok Paul...which one is it? Personally how could anyone know what Paul actually believed if he was being all these things to all these different folk to win them over at any cost? Being all things to all men is a formula for deception. <br /><br />11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.<br /><br />15 But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb (Like Jesus and Jeremiah) and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me (Not THROUGH me) so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being. 17 I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus. (All this contradicts Acts story of Paul)<br /><br />Galatians 2:6 As for those who were held in high esteem—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism—they added nothing to my message. (No difference? Nothing?)DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-64083894782706372462015-12-21T18:37:26.771-08:002015-12-21T18:37:26.771-08:00The problem here seems to be the lack of understan...The problem here seems to be the lack of understanding about the rift that actually existed between Paul and his Gentile version of his hallucinatory Christ message and the Jewish Christian perspective of his rivals in the faiths, Peter, James and John. This is why you can never quite figure out this law/grace problem. Depends who you quote. Get over the idea these guys loved each other, all spoke and all believed the same things. Paul was the antichrist to Jewish Christians and to Paul, they were the immature in whom was not Paul's great understanding. Of course Paul never met any earthly Jesus and never quotes him but felt he could go from persecutor to Apostle without anyone's permission or stops in between. Who ordained Paul? Not any Peter , James or John or anyone is said to have walked with Gospel Jesus. (I have almost concluded there was no real Jesus and he is a literary construct, but I spare you) <br /><br />A good read of Galatians 1-2 will leave you with an understanding of just how much of a Lone Ranger in need of no Peter, Jame or John or any reputed Church leaders. "I learned nothing from them..." <br /><br />The Jewish writer of Revelation probably was referring to Paul as the false apostle that the Ephesian Church found wanting and was congratulated for kicking out by Revelation Jesus. <br /><br />Is that so hard to understand?<br />Cheers<br />Dennis D.<br /><br />"Paul the Mythmaker" Hyam Maccoby <br /><br />DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-17638713073139833682015-12-21T13:05:54.871-08:002015-12-21T13:05:54.871-08:00However, you omitted the Sabbatarianism of COGs. C...However, you omitted the Sabbatarianism of COGs. Can a non-Sabbatarian be saved by grace? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com