Poor Bob Thiel. All along, he thought he was the chosen one, planned by God as the foundations of the world were being formed to lead the church in these perilous end times. Alas, it isn't so. There is someone better and more qualified. Poor Bob, always the bridesmaid and never the bride!
Samuel Kitchen writes, after a long quote by Aaron Dean on how HE organized the sit-ins in the Hall of Ad during the receivership (though many who were in Pasadena have another view on that), the following:
So Mr Dean was responsible for the 5,000 brethren, the grassroots movement that stood up in protest against the California receivership in 1979, by taking possession of and using what belonged to God!This is what we the membership of the Worldwide Church of God are doing today. Fighting for what belongs to God. Standing up for what belongs to God. Even coming together in Jerusalem, to make that known and to make known Mr Aaron Dean belongs to God! Not to the United Church of God, nor to any other church! He is a brand plucked from the fire. He is the Administrator of the Worldwide Church of God!The mantle of authority he has in THIS CHURCH was delegated to him BY THE APOSTLE. This is his assignment!None of us had a say in it, and so none of us has a say in it now. We cannot go and speak a lie, nor should we. We cannot say he has zero authority in the Worldwide Church of God. But now we ought to do right and raise awareness for the truth, edify him for the sake of his ministry, and strengthen the brethren so his work may be effective!People may wonder why I went to Jerusalem earlier this year. It was to stand up in protest. To declare what belongs to God belongs to God! Just like those 5,000 brethren did when they took the Church property and did their sit in, when it was being taken over by outsiders.I’ve always wondered why does the Church go to Jerusalem and flee from Jerusalem? To declare that which belongs to God! Just by showing up as the church, keeping God’s Holy Days.And that’s what I’m doing. And I am not deterred!Mr Dean, belongs to Jesus Christ, and so the Lord rebukes the Devil, in the name of Jesus Christ! Is He not a brand plucked from the fire?
This is hilarious. I wonder if ol' Samuel is eventually going to show up on the front doorstep of Aaron Dean, a la Fatal Attraction style. Somebody go get the popcorn! LOL
ReplyDeleteThis is so funny that I spit my beer out when reading the headline. And, there’s still people who thing Armstrongism is normal!
ReplyDeleteI read the headline and story and all I could say was what the Ayatollah in Iran said when he just came out of hiding…..’Shiite’……………..
ReplyDeleteThis bubble is becoming bigger and bigger. All it means is that someone or ones will be anticipating this, no, craving it as the grand finale to their lives, and sadly for them it is all a desperate mirage. They will die of broken hearts due to unrequited prophecy! That's the condition in which all devout Armstrongites die!
ReplyDeleteThere is only one mantle that mattered----- MICKEY MANTLE !
ReplyDeleteAaron ought to disfellowship the Kitchens... or at least get a restraining order preventing contact.
ReplyDeleteSadly I see what may very well be a mental health issue here. Perhaps it might be better not to give that person the oxygen they crave to promote such nonsense and point him in the direction of a therapist instead.
ReplyDeleteDon't ALL baptized believers "belong to God?" (Acts 27:23, NKJV) And to Christ (Mark 9:41)?
ReplyDeleteSo really, no one "belongs" to UCG. Or CCOG. Or COGWA.
Or even the Kitchens' form of WCG.
I just imagine Dean in the role of Bill Shatner on that SNL skit... "get a life, people".
ReplyDeleteFrom the original post: "The mantle of authority he has in THIS CHURCH was delegated to him BY THE APOSTLE. "
ReplyDeleteI do not recall any kind of a God-sanctioned ceremony that recognized HWA as an Apostle. Wasn't it just something that grew up over time? Just a colloquialism rather than a formal grammar? HWA may have passed something down to Dean but what was passed down to HWA?
If HWA was an Apostle, then what was G. G. Rupert from whom HWA got much of his teaching? It seems like the HWA minions cut Rupert out of the picture. If HWA was an Apostle then so was Rupert. And then how did Rupert get credentialed?
Scout
If HWA said he was an apostle of Rupert or Runcorn or some other human, he might have been apostleized. But when he said he was an apostle of Jesus Christ he lied. There are only 12 apostles of Jesus Christ - Rev 21:14. Matthias was numbered with the apostles but it is not written that Matthias was an apostle of Jesus Christ.
DeleteI do not recall any kind of a God-sanctioned ceremony that recognized HWA as an Apostle. Wasn't it just something that grew up over time?
DeleteThe brown-nosing young Herman Hoeh and Rod Meredith are the ones who started the Apostle talk, and HWA latched right on to it.
10.41 am, Sort of. I've read the intro of other splinters, and many spin the same narrative that their future leader was approached by members asking him to start a group and become the Chosen One. At first he was reluctant, but after much prodding, he finally agreed. This is the song and dance routine to conform to Proverbs 27:2. Proverbs 27:2 "Let someone else praise you, and not your own mouth; an outsider, and not your own lips."
DeleteAnon, Friday, June 27, 2025 at 10:01:22 AM PDT, wrote:
Delete"...There are only 12 apostles of Jesus Christ - Rev 21:14. Matthias was numbered with the apostles but it is not written that Matthias was an apostle of Jesus Christ."
******
Matthias replaced Judas, who was one of the original 12 apostles:
Matthew 10:1 And when he had called unto [him] his twelve disciples, he gave them power [against] unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James [the son] of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James [the son] of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth,..."
It seems sensible, common sense, that Matthias was an apostle joining with the other 11 apostles.
Jesus, after mentioning about being betrayed commented as follows:
Luke 22:29 "And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
There will be 12 thrones. Matthias was number 12. Call it speculation if you will, whether Matthias was an apostle or not, but I suspect he was and he will occupy that 12th throne, but...
Time will tell...
John
If HWA was an apostle, please explain his over 100 failed prophesies?
ReplyDeleteI get the impression that Samuel is worshipping a physical church rather than worshipping God.
It's interesting to have watched all of this play out. I can't even fathom how a preservationist ACOG would have even begun sorting it. If God were indeed ever working through HWA and the Worldwide Church of God, then you must accept as fact that He inspired HWA to choose Joseph Tkach Sr., as his successor, fully knowing as only God can, precisely what Joseph Tkach was going to do. If God did not inspire or guide HWA in his choice of Joseph Tkach, then HWA made that choice on his own, was fallible as opposed to having been an Apostle, and his bad decision led to the downfall of the church, its power broken by the splintering as people attempted to hang on to the original doctrines.
ReplyDeleteThe leaders and their followers in the ACOGs seem to have treated the whole sordid debacle as if, yes, HWA was indeed God's Apostle, but that he made a fatal mistake in choosing Joseph Tkach, that God did not inspire Mr. Tkach to make the changes, and that the "survivors" were justified in starting their own little groups as opposed to asking God to pick one leader, thus keeping the church together. I don't know about everybody else, but that looks like complete confusion to me, and flies in the face of the overly quoted scripture that "God is not the author of confusion", even though there are scriptural examples of God using confusion to divide ***His enemies***! (Tower of Babel, enemy armies battling Israel, use of parables so the wrong people would NOT understand).
The Tkaches blew the "New" WCG from the get-go by retaining the old, authoritarian managerial style of government from the top down, as they attempted to force members to go along with the changes, rather than lovingly working with the people in an effort to assist them in understanding, realizing that consciences were involved, and the change would be a long term project.
With large groups of people trying both immediately obvious ways of dealing with this disaster, and neither prospering, one thing seems self-evident. God was not behind either side. Everybody points to the mess humanity is currently in, but there is no audible, viable voice proclaiming an effective warning message or presenting a path to correction. The entire history of the R/WCG+ was absolutely useless! Nobody has been able to prove otherwise! If it ever had been God's True Church, it would never have become a nostalgia item, like so many of the cast-off fads of the past decades. It would still be vibrant and fulfilling HWA's mission statement!
BB
Mr Tkach Snr could have chose himself. Only Aaron Dean and Tkachs narrative of what happened is known.
Deletethat looks like complete confusion to me, and flies in the face of the overly quoted scripture that "God is not the author of confusion"
Delete1 Corinthians 14:33 is one of the most misquoted scriptures in the whole Bible, quoted selectively and out of context. The word translated as "confusion" in the KJV should more appropriately in modern English be translated as "disorder." And most who quote just the "confusion" half of the verse neglect the other half, that His orderliness brings peace.
The Tkach dismantling of Armstrong's doctrines was not disorderly. In fact, it was done by using the instruments of order that HWA himself established in his church. And that dismantling brought great peace to those who did not become contentious rebels against the order HWA had established.
Byker Bob, Friday, June 27, 2025 at 10:39:23 PM PDT, wrote:
Delete"It's interesting to have watched all of this play out. I can't even fathom how a preservationist ACOG would have even begun sorting it. If God were indeed ever working through HWA and the Worldwide Church of God, then you must accept as fact that He inspired HWA to choose Joseph Tkach Sr., as his successor, fully knowing as only God can, precisely what Joseph Tkach was going to do..."
******
I could say "Amen" to that.
What were some of the results? There was a huge scattering of numerous hirelings of the former WCG, many disagreeing with others among them, and starting up their own organizations, while claiming that God had inspired them.
John 10 has an interesting prophecy about the scattering of those within God's Church:
John 10:12 "But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep."
Many on this website have commented about the care they received from many of those hirelings, who left their credentials behind in Pasadena.
WCG, like the United Ass., or the "Living" group (name others) was an organization. Members of God's Church, today, may be among all of this scattering; however, Jesus knows who are His sheep, which are the Father's sheep. Jesus said so:
John 10:14 "I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."
Some on this thread wonder: was HWA an apostle? Rupert? Who knows? Does it matter?
God and Jesus know who are part of God's Church, and it's been known for a long time:
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" Eph 1:4; Phil 1:6, etc.
God's Church has existed, assuming gates of hell have not prevailed over it, for about 2,000 years. How many leaders did God work with to guide His Church over 2,000 years? We don't know exactly, but if we assumed each leader was used by God to guide His Church during a 50-year time span, then there would have been approximately 40 leaders. That's a lot of peeps, and there has only been one perfect leader, who at one time was a 100% human being, that has been the Head of God's Church. Guess who God and Jesus Christ has had to work with for the past 2,000 years?
So, why debate over HWA, Rupert (name a peep): they were all sinners. Join the club!
Anyway, BB, I read your other post that you wrote and I think it is interesting that you shared your experiences via your relatives, who scattered here and there.
Thank God He didn't send His Son to condemn this world with all of its peeps. Will God save this world (excluding Satan and his evil angels (Eph 6:12; I John 3:8) made to be destroyed...eventually) as we are told in I John 2:2, and elsewhere...even eventually save all Israel, but time will tell.
It appears that Jesus Christ gave us some very important advice. Rather than blame/judge fellow human beings for this that and everything, He said: "Love one another."
Why did Jesus say that? Might it be because Jesus Christ knew that human beings know not what they judge? Well, Jesus did acknowledge that those 2 thieves knew not what they did and, not only 1 thieve, but both will one day be in Paradise. Jesus, like His God/Father, does not lie and is not a respecter of persons, but...
Time will tell...
John
....." THUMBS UP " ....
ReplyDelete10.23, what happened to the WWCG is logical and consistent with God's laws. There is no confusion involved. Joseph Tkach became the new leader because he's what the church deserved based on the members poor character. This is consistent with God's law of "be it according to your faith," ie, the physical world is a manifestation of what's in people's heart. So Joe was a natural effect, as was the splintering. This is a type of what's happening to America. It will also splinter and lose its super power status because of the increased sins of its citizens.
ReplyDeleteDon't get me wrong, I liked Joe Tkach Sr, and that's in spite of the fact that there was a time when he had to speak harshly to me. But, I had seen enough to realize that Armstrongism was bogus and wrong when the main event, what would have been HWA's crowning glory, failed to materialize in 1975. So, I was not present during the changes, or the troubles, however you choose to call them, which occurred during the 1990s. My impressions are partially taken from the experiences of some of my family members who remained "in the church". Those experiences are a "split decision", as some went with the new doctrines (and later went with a mainstream Christian church which had vastly more experience with the "new" doctrines), my parents went with the new doctrines initially and then somehow reversed that course and became members of UCG and then COGWA, and another sibling stuck with the original doctrines from the very beginning.
ReplyDelete7:53 alludes to the orderliness of the original Armstrong system. I would agree that there was an authoritarian system which existed, but to me it was always problematic, because it was very much like a police state. Some say that that system usurped the role of the Holy Spirit, by attempting to "enforce" character. The confusion I described in my original comment is based on the experiences of my sibling who embraced the new doctrines. Members were told by leadership "we're not going to do this" and then the following week at church "they" did do exactly that. Ministers who put members out of the church for not following the new doctrines later became pivotal members of the ministry in the splinters which taught the original doctrines. First there was the tithing, then there was no tithing, then there was. My sibling who went with the "new" doctrines" became exhausted by the endless confusion in the Tkach church, and simply found a good mainstream one and has lived happily ever after.
As does 5:31, I believe that there are many parallels between Armstrongism and what we see in America today. Extreme authoritarianism usually produces less than favorable results. As happened at the hands of HWA, we have a figurehead who has systematically destroyed trust in all the institutions upon which Americans have depended for our way of life, and asks that we trust only him. It is no coincidence that he has the support of the majority of white evangelicals who see America as having been founded soley by Christians, and having forgotten our destiny. Some say we are already in an ideological civil war, as opposed to a geographic one. Whatever is going on, It seems to be an extreme pendulum swing for the two party system. Whether or not we regain equillibrium depends on too many variables. I personally believe that there are too many existential threats, and there is too much existential angst for us to ever return to what was one "normal", nor should we want or need to return to that, with all the glaciers melting, and the oceans being destroyed. But. despite certain parallels, I do not see Armstrongism as being a type of the USA, or splintering as being imminent. The ginormous national debt is our greatest threat at this point, and politicians on both sides continue to expand that. We also repress an abundance of scientific evidence when ever it conflicts with big business. Unlike the WCG, we do still have checks and balances, and a much more vast and varied leadership pool upon which to draw. It may just be that the sun has disappeared behind a cloud, and could reemerge in the not too distant future. Or, this could be the alternative end which Armstrongism was totally incapable of foreseeing. TWT
BB
SKitchen wrote that Aaron Dean: '...is a brand plucked from the fire. He is the Administrator of the Worldwide Church of God!
ReplyDeleteThe mantle of authority he has in THIS CHURCH was delegated to him BY THE APOSTLE. ..."
******
Who is "THE APOSTLE?" Was that HWA? If so, that so-called "mantle of authority" HWA placed upon Joe Tkach Sr.
Brethren would not have been more effectively scattered (John 10; Rev 3) under an Aaron Dean, or even under HWA's son that died in an auto crash if he were not in a crash and lived on, than was accomplished under Joe Tkach Sr. If God was involved in any way, did He make some huge mistake? Was He bamboozled? Asleep? Had some "wool" pulled over His eyes?
And Aaron Dean was not some brand "plucked from the fire." Ridiculous! Will say more below.
Why/how does SKitchen come up with a theory about anything Aaron Dean?
SKitchen also wrote: "...Mr Dean, belongs to Jesus Christ, and so the Lord rebukes the Devil, in the name of Jesus Christ! Is He not a brand plucked from the fire?..."
No, Aaron was not a brand plucked from the fire, but Peter was: that chief Apostle.
Zechariah 3-4 show, hundreds of years in advance, that Zerubbabel/Joshua represent Christ/Peter, respectively. So, for example, what about that brand plucked from the fire?
Zech 3:1 "And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: [is] not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel."
Joshua pictures Peter, not Jesus Christ. What example exists that shows where Satan and Peter were ever near each other, and Satan was rebuked?
Matthew 16:23 "But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men."
Mark 8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men."
These verses have nothing to do with Aaron Dean, who is currently associated with the United Ass., which implies that Aaron apparently believes the government of God exists with United Association; otherwise, why would he be with them...and not with the likes of SKitchen, Pack Weinland, Weston, Franks, Coulter, etc....?????
Will there be any further updates regarding Aaron Dean?
Time will tell...
John
Wow! So Mickey Mantle has been supernaturally ressurrected and is batting for the UCG in the summer ACOG leagues! What a gas! Too bad Sam doesn't have enough guys for a team. I heard that Aaron was one helluva pitcher back in the Imperial days!
ReplyDeleteBB