It's a day late and a dollar short, but yesterday, July 31, 2025, marked what would have been Herbert W. Armstrong's 133rd birthday. Little did he know the chaos that would follow, as unscrupulous individuals tried to imitate him, leading to the formation of numerous splinter groups. No one could have foreseen the rise of such incredible buffoons and great liars as we see today in figures like Gerald Flurry, Dave Pack, Bob Thiel, Alton Billingsley, and Ron Weinland.
HWA did mention in a June 1985 Worldwide News article...
ReplyDelete"For some years now, there have been some, like vultures, waiting for me to die. They would like to come back and take over the leadership of the
Church in my stead."
Hmmm - prophecy fulfilled?!
No.
DeleteHappy birthday Herbie….
ReplyDeleteNow just imagine if Gerry were President of the USA.
This day would be a national holiday.
And another image would be engraved onto Mount Rushmore………his image.
No not Gerry’s you silly people, but Herbie's lol.
Mine you I’m sure Gerry wouldn’t say no to an effigy of himself on said mountain. Move over Herb.
I suspect even if he had an inkling of things to come he would not care - he enjoyed the fancy suits and plane and fancy everything else. Looking back one wonders what he even achieved
ReplyDeleteI believe HWA did have some lasting influences, although they might not be the ones for which he hoped.
ReplyDeleteFirst, he was unique, in that his background in advertising or marketing is what made him successful as a pioneer televangelist. Also, he influenced mainstresm evangelists by demonstrating the effectiveness of teaching tithing in building an empire with millions of dollars flowing in each year. I had never heard of tithing in my church experiences or through any friendships prior to my family's involvement in Armstrongism. Now, it is a common practice.
Thirdly, his emphasis on a soon coming apocalypse resonated with a handful of other Christian evangelists who were part of the emerging Jesus movement which began in the 1970s. By the 1980s, even President Reagan was stating that he was amongst those who believed we were living in the end times.
I believe HWA also exerted influence in popularizing natural foods, proper exercise, and the avoidance of medications. This is an example of one of the very few possibly "net good" aspects of his life and teachings. Of course, he took the antimedical thing to extreme, and people died as a result.
He was also a voice for extreme conservatism, and influenced the modern conservative movement with his intolerance, and authoritarianism.
But, I still wish I had been an early condom salesman, and had known old Horace back in the 1800s!
BB
"He was also a voice for extreme conservatism.."
DeleteNot really. He was anti-abortion and advocated an assertive military so that it was safe for him to play church. But in every other way he was fundamentally left wing. Your extreme conservatives believe in small government, the bill of rights and free trade. His cult was the exact opposite. What church member can even define the word rights? Try scratching the surface Bob.
Byker Bob, aka BB, Saturday, August 2, 2025 at 12:31:27 AM PDT, wrote, in part:
Delete"...I believe HWA did have some lasting influences, although they might not be the ones for which he hoped.
First, he was unique, in that his background in advertising or marketing is what made him successful as a pioneer televangelist. Also, he influenced mainstresm evangelists by demonstrating the effectiveness of teaching tithing...
Thirdly, his emphasis on a soon coming apocalypse resonated with a handful of other Christian evangelists who were part of the emerging Jesus movement which began in the 1970s...
I believe HWA also exerted influence in popularizing natural foods, proper exercise, and the avoidance of medications. This is an example of one of the very few possibly "net good" aspects of his life and teachings..."
******
BB, those are interesting observations within your own personal life. Overall, I too learned similar "milk-like" things, including knowledge regarding the words of the Bible, the law, clean/unclean meats, Sabbath, annual Holydays, etc.; however, virtually all of the prophecy was like spiritual junk food. Was there really any real "meat?"
As a result of what HWA taught, many (like Doug Winnail, of a scattered organization, and other fleeing hirelings of the former WCG) are still seeking/preaching the junk food of: "another Jesus" to return very soon (in 3 to 5 years?) to reign on earth 1,000 years while His Father still hadn't made their enemies a footstool.
They virtually all preach a second coming to earth of their "another Jesus" while turning a blind eye to where Jesus Christ went after He was murdered, resurrected, and went to third Heaven to spend some time with His Father: that God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob (Acts 3:;13)
Some still look forward to a "third resurrection."
Some (again, like Doug) don't believe in salvation by God's grace (2 Cor 5:19; I John 2:2, etc.). They believe in self, earning some salvation (and even reward) by their own works.
As Jesus foretold in John 10, the scattering of those of the former WCG is today a reality, and most of the hirelings are exposed as being uncaring. Did any of them see that wolf?
John 10:12 "But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep."
Well, those hirelings probably still consider the wolf, Satan, a major principality, to be like a wimp instead of what Paul described:
"And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." 2 Tim 2:26
How would a Doug Winnail get snared so easily? Self, or as James said:
"Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?" James 4:5
What spirit is that, which James wrote of? Something that existed, somehow, within those fellow Christians James was speaking to.
Lust, envy? Those are not fruits of God's Spirit, but they are fruits of a spirit, another spirit, who can easily inspire others (like Doug, and hirelings of the former WCG) to believe in such things as another Jesus, and another gospel, and that God's grace is insufficient to save one.
Yes, even HWA was snared to one degree or another....well, just like us at times, but when will those hirelings who fled the former WCG acknowledge that they were all snared, are scattered, perhaps even luke warm in attitude, be granted/given repentance and get away from their "junk food" and become an ambassador of Christ teaching God's truth and not false theories of their own minds?
Time will tell...
John
July 31 has a meaning for me. That was the date, back in the early 1960s, when I became a member of the US Air Force...
BB, you way over estimate his influence. Most people only barely heard of him. Members would tell you that he was well known, but that’s only because they were told to say it, and their world was very small, limited to him. He was one of the first televangelists, I give you that. But he had no political influence. He never met a US President. He never endorsed a candidate. And since his church rejected civic duty, he couldn’t do what Mormons and Moonies did in that area. Tithing was very well known before him. I don’t know where you got the idea otherwise. Health foods, and all that? 1960s hippies made that a thing.
DeletePervo was a “big fish in a small pond” kind of egomaniac. He didn’t care so much about being known in the world. He just wanted to be uber-top dog in his own little circle. Oh, and meet bigwigs as part of that.
For real, you are completely off on this. The only community where he is a household name outside of his following are Sabbatarians (to some degree), Anglo-Israelists, and White nationalists. (And no, those last two are NOT one of the same.)
I don't know what WCG you attended, or if you even graduated from high school, 3:17, but, HWA most definitely did believe in small government, most of the Bill of Rights, and free trade. You may not have been around to hear him lambaste Martin Luther King , to hear him and his lieutenants complain bitterly about how the govenrment would soon be telling him how to run Ambassador College, and Imperial Schools (integration), and to hear him thunder that "God''s way is segregation!" He also hated the welfare state. He taught that he who doesn't work shouldn't eat.
DeleteHe loved and exploited the parts of the Bill of Rights which protected his freedoms to establish and maintain a crackpot religion, yet he did not allow freedom of speech within his chirch. He was thankful for freedom of the press protecting his ability to publish the Plain Truth and all the booklets, but despised how that free press depicted himself and Republican presidents. He hated the judiciary branch of the government, and did not trust them to dispense justice. He did not like big brother government forcing church members to vaccinate their children. Also, he was very much into Nixon opening up China, and basked in the free trade which allowed him to obtain expensive goods from around the world.
Basically, even in the realm of liberal vs conservative, HWA was "pick and choose". He loved the freedoms the founding documents of our country provided insofar as they allowed him to conduct his own little pissant kingdom, and to be selective about which of the freedoms (inalienable rights) he would pass along to his members. You can't get much more extreme with small govenrment than his "government from the top down" model, concentrating all largely unchecked powers within himself.
The big question is how can those of us who were so controlled and trashed out by an extremely conservative religion maintain a love for conservative principles? I guess that one attempt would be your own, that of simplistically missbranding the perp as having been a commie liberal. The other is to realize that conservatism is basically good, it's just that when it is taken to extremes, as HWA did, it becomes oppressive. Even conservatism needs checks and balances placed upon it in order for it to be equally fair to all who live under it. The same types of very conservative Christians as HWA was have become disproportionately influential in the conservative movement of today. Even the deaf dumb and blind kid from "Tommy" can discern that, because Tommy would still be able to tell from his sense of smell!
BB
I'm a positive thinker, but I realized that even the few tidbits I listed above would be challenged. First of all, Lee, in any given field, you really don't need to worry about "most people". All you need do is influence your peers, those who are doing the same things you are. In HWA's case, many of his fellow televangelists were tuned into him in an attempt to determine how he got so big, what made him so successful. Just as Eric Clapton might borrow and bend a guitar riff from Freddie King and reach even greater numbers of listeners with it, the televangelists percolated key parts of HWA's schtick down into their own congreagations.
DeleteAlso, lest you forget, it was HWA's huge political influence with Gov. George Deukmejian that got the receivership imposed upon him and the church quashed.
Hippies borrowed many things from many sources as they dissected "the establishment", questioning all they had been taught, and appropriating alternatives. But, too many of them were living on reds, vitamin C and cocaine throughout their long strange trip, and could not have cared less about health and physical fitness. There was during that era, a proliferation of body builders (Schwarzaneggar), martial artists, and just plain people who turned away from cigarettes and alcohol looking for a better way to live. People couldn't come to our churches, but they watched us and asked questions as we dined or took supplements at work or school, so our dietery habits were indeed a part of the raising of consciousness of that period.
You should probably check in with nck regarding HWA's influences. As I pointed out in my first paragraph, to be an influencer, you don't have to influence the man on the street directly. You influence his influencers. My peers and I have done that very effectively in placing new technology. It is far more effective than going door to door.
BB
John, you certainly pointed out some additional, very lasting influences which affect members lives today. In many ways, I believe it is more difficult for the church people to shake some of the influences of HWA which were bogus and bad because they regarded him as being God's Apostle. They regard the current crop of leaders (hirelings as you succinctly call them) as being place-holders for their Apostle. They are not unlike perpetual pupae, or chrysalis.
DeleteBB
BB,
DeleteI’m one that would like to think hwa had as little impact as possible, but I think he did have an effect on religions due to his branding/marketing, tithing, and apocalyptic messaging. Like some said I think the exercise, avoiding medication, and advocating health foods was only marginal. But, good points.
I think Armstrong supported conservative ideas as it suited him to give him freedom to push forward his brand of false religion.
But, while he supported small government outside the church, he ran a totalitarian ship inside. While he liked the bill of rights outside the church, he crushed free speech and assembly, etc….while supporting the quartering of soldiers (i.e. “visiting” ministers) in one’s home.
The church might have touted conservative ideas on a national level but ran a totalitarian communist government inside with the elites (HQ and upper tier ministry) and their chosen (ministry and rich members), and we remaining useful idiots…we thought we were doing something good but as an organization we wound up just providing luxuries for “our betters”, but if we zigged instead of zagged the jack booted minister would kill us in the mind of members and now ex-friends and ex-family through disfellowshipment.
The Church itself was much more communist in its function than conservative.
Byker Bob, BB, Saturday, August 2, 2025 at 10:26:21 AM PDT, wrote:
DeleteJohn, you certainly pointed out some additional, very lasting influences which affect members lives today. In many ways, I believe it is more difficult for the church people to shake some of the influences of HWA which were bogus and bad because they regarded him as being God's Apostle. They regard the current crop of leaders (hirelings as you succinctly call them) as being place-holders for their Apostle. They are not unlike perpetual pupae, or chrysalis.
******
Once upon a time, a Lesson Three article I read, written about June 1997, referred to the former WCG hirelings as "would be" clones.
A beautiful Monarch butterfly, for example, may emerge out of its pupae; however, that living thing came from a package of anlagen cells enclosed within a caterpillar. The caterpillar never metamorphosis into a butterfly. The anlagen cells were like an organism (butterfly) within an organism (caterpillar), but a thing of beauty emerges.
Now, you mentioned that the hirelings are: "...not unlike perpetual pupae, or chrysalis," which is an interesting thought, because if they are perpetual they never emerge as anything worthwhile or worth seeing.
FWIIW, I'll share some parts of the article that made mention of the "would be" clones:
[["......Brethren, we have to understand that GOD is the One who reveals, NOT man. It is not up to men to start their little churches, their little congregations, and their little corporate boards. That is up to GOD, not man. God ALWAYS shows and leads the way to revelation and understanding of His Word...
...NOT ONE of these hirelings was commissioned by God to carry on Mr. Armstrong’s work! They are only “would be” clones. Mr. Armstrong NEVER picked ANY of these men, and neither did God Almighty!
When God chooses a servant, HE teaches and trains that man and inspires him to teach HIS truth and carry out a specific commission. He did just that with Mr. Armstrong. And, Mr. Armstrong did fulfill his part of the work that he was called to do.
God is moving right along with His Plan. He is right on schedule. If He wanted any of these hirelings to carry on Mr. Armstrong’s work, He would have inspired Mr. Armstrong to choose one of them. Instead, he WAS inspired to choose a man that was to head in a completely different direction that resulted in the dividing and scattering of the Church and the beginning of the Laodicean Era.
Each of God’s servants had different works and purposes to accomplish in God’s overall plan. Now, some have been trained and taught by a predecessor such as Joshua, Elisha, the Apostles...
...Others were raised up independently and prepared to come on the scene such as Moses, Elijah, John the Baptist, Christ..
...They all had their specific roles to play. None of them carried on another man’s work...
...God always provides ONE servant at a time to lead His Church or Era. He leads ONE servant and reveals only to him what God’s people need to know to fulfill His Plan. He NEVER works through four or five “would be” clones that vote themselves into office or start their own work simply because they did not have the patience or the faith to “go with the flow” and actually leave it up to God! God has NEVER forsaken His people…..."]]
Anyway, your mentioning of pupae, chrysalis reminded me of the "would be" clones of this particular article, and whether HWA, followed by the choosing of Joseph W. Tkach Sr. as successor, has anything to do with the dividing/scattering resulting in the existence of Laodiceans (Rev 3:14-21)? Time may be telling.
Joe Tkach Sr. certainly delivered a different message from that of HWA.
But, what message are all of these "would be" clones and/or perpetual pupae/chrysalis (place-holders) sending out to us today?
Time will tell...
John
As for me I don't give a R.I.P.!
ReplyDeletePerhaps this is a good day to get it started: Has anyone considered a specific effort this Feast of Tabernacles to challenge ACOGs? A few years ago, I trolled a Facebook page, set up for it, but was blocked when I started talking about how Armstrong was rendered impotent by all the medication he took. Lol
ReplyDeletePerhaps a collection taken to purchase billboard space in Branson this year. They usually have several ACOGs there, and if you will place signs would have to be seen by members, as well as the general population. Just referred to a website set up with some very basic stuff specifically debunking the religion. A few key coltish comments by him, a streamlined version of my debunking of their succession… Basic stuff that will get newbies to question, get the remaining thinkers there to think, and get the locals to ask questions of them, which they would be unable and forbidden to answer.
The adults are what I call PSM's, Lee. (Psychological Spiritual Masochists) For most, this is a pathology which deepens with age and experience, and it is a rare case in which they would even perceive a bottoming out process caused by their belief system as such.
DeleteCertainly good thinking to target the locals, but best chance at accomplishing something positive is to do your best to break the generational cycle. Think like the Disney Imagineers, and also implant some subliminals into your billboard message for the kids.
Newbies? Hard to reach. They're still in their honeymoon period!
BB
I was born in the 1990s, after HWA died. But from what I know of him, I think we had a lot in common. Yes, we've definitely been compared. If his two trees had been in South Park Colorado,, my ancestors could have been fertilizer for them
ReplyDelete💩
What what is this I hear from BB??
ReplyDeleteHWA was into "small government."
Does this mean I have to WORK as ruler of Tatooine.......??
Tithing btw was extremely common.... Even John D. Rockefeller tithed, the Kelogg and IBM founder etc
Interesting to see "kids" here commenting that HWA was "not influential since no one knows him"
Hilarious stuff....
as just this week USA dropped out of Lefty UNESCO.... again....
Nck
Looks like The JWs got 1975 from HWA ten years after his booklet. HWA being such a convincing salesman/con-artist. So that would be an example of a pre=existing Millerite cult (JWs) being influenced by a next century Millerite conman!
ReplyDeleteHerbert W Armstrong's life is closer to the American Civil War than it is to today.
ReplyDelete