Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders

Monday, November 3, 2025

The Conundrum of Revelation: Where Armstrongism Joins the Consensus

 

The icon of Saint John discovered in the catacombs of Saint Tecla (ca. Late 4th Century)

(Vatican’s Pontifical Commission for Sacred Archaeology)

 

The Conundrum of Revelation

Where Armstrongism Joins the Consensus

By Scout

“The time has come for God's servants to open up to YOU — to lay bare before your startled eyes — these tremendous prophecies of the Book of REVELATION!” – Herbert W. Armstrong, 1972

"The art of prophecy is very difficult, especially with respect to the future" – Mark Twain

I have heartburn over the Book of Revelation.  I’ll be honest about it. I find it to be a very difficult read. It is not one of those books where you just need to read it carefully with the help of a bunch of reference works to figure it out.  The more I read it, the less certain its meaning becomes.  And there are many interpretations of Revelation.  Oddly, the Armstrongist interpretation of Revelation comports well with the most popular view found in the Christian movement.  This may be the largest piece of common ground between Christianity and Armstrongism.  I can think of no other. 

The history of how Revelation entered the canon is checkered. I will not go into the detail but suffice it to say that it barely made it into the canon against a fairly healthy opposition viewpoint.  Of course, Montanus gave it some bad press. The church back then was split fifty-fifty over whether it was actually scripture. I think it should be in the canon but I also think it is the problem child in the canon family.  It is an open door to misinterpretation.  I have dealt with it by adopting a popular but minority view on Revelation called preterism.  But I sit uncomfortably in the preterist chair and I will tell you why.  

The Chronological Bracketing of Revelation

The chronological setting of Revelation is stated explicitly in its text.  Dennis Diehl has pointed this out several times.  (Atheists notice things that Bible proponents sometimes simply read over.) The text is chronologically bracketed. The opening bracket is formed by two verses in the first chapter of Revelation.

“The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place, and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.” (NRSV, Rev 1:1)

“Look! He is coming with the clouds; every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all the tribes of the earth will wail on account of him.” (NRSV, Rev 1:7)

In verse 1, we have an explicit statement that the events of the book “must soon take place.” Verse 7 supports this chronology in verse 1.  This statement has a chronological hook.  The coming of Christ will happen at a time when “those who pierced him” are still alive. This no doubt has some reference to the Roman soldiers who were ordered to carry out the physical act of the Crucifixion but it refers principally to the Jews who rejected Christ. Scripture states that they bear the weight of responsibility for the Crucifixion (Matt 21:33-43, Luke 9:22).  Verse 7 connects the events of Revelation solidly to the First Century.  

Further, verse 7 projects an interesting imagery.  It portrays a special condition where Christ is “coming with the clouds.”  I believe this to be a departure from what we understand the Parousia to be – Christ’s literal return as a geopolitical event affecting the entirety of humankind.   This cloud imagery is found paralleled in Isaiah 19 where the prophet states: 

“See, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt; the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.” (NRSV, Isaiah 19:1)

This cloud-judgment imagery indicates that First Century life is about to be interdicted by the powerful intervention of Jesus.  Jesus told the High Priest that he would personally witness in his lifetime Jesus coming with this cloud-judgment (Matthew 26:64).  This interpretation fits with the 70 AD context much better than seeing in these words the Parousia in the Eschaton.  

The closing bracket of the chronology is the following:

“And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.” (NRSV, Rev 22:10)

This bracketing ties the events described in the written “words” of the book of Revelation principally to the First Century. I believe this is a rational, exegetical approach.   But I also believe that John of Patmos digressed at some points and referred to the future.  Particularly in the last two chapters of the book where he describes the New Heavens and New Earth.  

There is a scholastic distinction between those who believe that the events of Revelation took place entirely or mostly in the First Century and those that hold other views.   That brings us to the topic of preterism.  

Full and Partial Preterism

I will wear the label of partial preterism but not without some unsettled feelings.  Preterism comes from the Latin word “praeteritus” meaning “gone by.”  The preterist view of Revelation is that the majority of the prophecies of John of Patmos took place in the First Century soon after he actually wrote the text – just as the scripture says.  The Revelation events include the Fall of Jerusalem and the Destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.  Some preterists advance the idea that the events also include the Fall of Rome in the Fifth Century. 

Full preterists believe that the entirety of Revelation has happened already.  Partial preterists, like myself, believe that the bulk of Revelation is done but there are, yet, references to the future among the prophecies. For instance, I believe the last two chapters of Revelation give us a preview of the future. Full preterists would likely say that these chapters are an allegory reflecting the coming of the New Testament.  The New Testament makes the heavens and the earth new.  Yet, I do not get the feeling I am reading poetry when I read these passages.  It is logistically far too detailed.  I feel like these scenarios are relating real world events.  But feelings don’t amount to a tight exegesis. 

Another concern that operates in conjunction with preterism is whether the events of Revelation happened in the mundane realm.  Preterists believe that all or some of the events are symbolic or happen in the spiritual realm.  I fall into this category of belief.  Further, preterism asserts the idea that there is evidence that Revelation was written by John before 70 AD.  This is controversial and most theologians believe that the book was written around 95 AD.  I side with the pre-70 AD minority faction and I think it is highly probable that Revelation was either written or dictated by John the Apostle.  Only in the writings of John (The Gospel of John, 1 John and Revelation) is Christ referred to as The Word. 

The Geographical Focus of Revelation

Preterism has a specific view on where the events of Revelation happen.  The dramatic and disconcerting afflictive agenda in Revelation was about the Jews who rejected Jesus as the Christ.  Revelation 1:7 is the keynote scripture for this theme.  Revelation is not about Gentile northwest Europeans and their many national sins. Gentiles have always been lowlifes from the Judaic perspective.  No surprise there. The prophecies of Matthew 24, which were also of the apocalyptic genre, were about the Roman destruction of the Temple, the Chosen people and the Promised Land and not global geopolitics and some jigging Gentiles in Ireland. Just reflect a moment on what actually happened in history.  You can read about it.

The Greek “tes ges” in Revelation (for instance Rev 1:7) refers to the “land” rather than to the “earth.”  The cataclysms of Revelation are Israel-centric and focused on the Promised Land.  The rest of the world is mentioned but in the context of how forces in the world impinge on the Promised Land and the Chosen people.  Translators scaled up the local Noachian Flood to a global event by translating the word in Hebrew for “homeland” as the “earth.”  In a similar manner, translators have scaled up the book of Revelation to focus on the globe rather than the Promised Land by translating the Greek word for land as the “earth.”  

Further, in Revelation 1:7, the Greek term for “tribes” is “phylai”.  This word may also mean “clan.”  So, instead of the scaled-up, global “tribes of the earth” we have the local “clans of the land” which semantically comports with the Matthew 24 context of 70 AD. 

I think the preterist view of the focus of Revelation makes sense. The storyline is about the Jews and the persecution of the early Church in Western Asia.   It centers on Palestine and does not have a global agenda as its principal concern.  

Armstrongism Takes the Popular View

Preterism is a minority interpretation of the Book of Revelation in Christianity.  The most popular view is called Classical Dispensationalism.  In this view there is a key verse that organizes Revelation into three time-segments.  The verse is Revelation 1:19 and it says, “Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.”  If John was the author, and I believe he was, he is instructed to write about what he has seen based on his experience as a Disciple, and about those things “which are” and this refers to the messages to the extant churches and, finally, about the things which shall be hereafter, referring to the future.  The latter is basically chapter 4 through the end of the book.  

I believe Armstrongism follows this overall structure found in Classical Dispensationalism, if not always the details.  Armstrongism may tend to bunch the events up in the Eschaton.  And Armstrongism would, of course, factor in British-Israelism.  Otherwise, Armstrongism fairly much complies with the Christian consensus. The point is, Armstrongism has no magic powers to parse out the meaning of Revelation.   Armstrongists swim in the same murky, low visibility water as everyone else. 

The Chronological Conundrum for all Viewpoints

A simple, spare but basic hermeneutic for the Book of Revelation might look like this, “Whatever Revelation means, all the events took place shortly after it was written.”  A corollary would be, “The bulk of the Book of the Revelation is not for our time. It meant something to the church about 2,000 years ago.”  At the same time, I believe Revelation reflects principles, characteristics of salvation and intents of God that are for all times.  The last two chapters are clearly about the Eschaton.  But the sequential narrative events that form the “bulk” of Revelation are past. 

The problem for non-preterist viewpoints is that they generally see the events of Revelation playing out over history with still some events left to the distant future.   Or, perhaps, all the events are to take place in one generation at the Eschaton.  These views clearly violate the chronological bracketing discussed earlier in this essay.   

Yet, there is also a chronological issue concerning preterist views.  The fall of Rome usually is identified with the fall of Babylon in the Revelation text.  But Rome did not fall until the Fifth century.  That’s not” soon”.  So, this also violates the chronological bracketing.  This makes me think that partial preterism is a good interpretation but is not the actual interpretation.  My guess is that, maybe, the fall refers to not the great collapse of Rome but to the fall of Neronian Rome (Rome under Nero).  Rome did take off in a different direction after the demise of Nero.  

Conclusion

If the Book of Revelation is meant to reveal something about the geopolitical landscape, it wasn’t meant for us.  Because it is hardly a revealing from the modern perspective. It is instead a mystery.  The tenor of the book is that “you need to know this now because it is going to happen soon.”   It is not going happen over centuries.  It was going to start and run to completion “soon” after John of Patmos wrote it all down.  Armstrongism threw its hat into the ring but it does not interpret Revelation or abide by the chronological bracketing any better than anyone else.  Revelation can only be viewed through a glass darkly.  Paul didn’t know how bad things could get. 

Reference

A good overall view of preterism can be found in “Four Views on the Book of Revelation,” Zondervan Academic, 1998.  It contains a chapter on preterism by Kenneth L. Gentry.


Sunday, November 2, 2025

Pathetic, VIle Crackpot Prophet: Persecution Of So-Called Christians Is Not As Bad As What I am Suffering Or WIll Suffer In The Years To Come


One thing you can say about the Great Bwana Bob Thiel is that he almost always engages his mouth long before his brain decides to show up to the party. Picturing himself as God's duly appointed prophet for these perilous end times—and convinced that no one else on this earth is quite as flawless a Christian as he is, or even a real one—he just keeps flapping his callous, holier-than-thou gums, mocking the persecutions and killings of Christians around the world. Sure, those so-called Christians' deaths are a tad sad to hear about, but it's nothing compared to the epic tragedy of the Great Bwana and his loyal flock suffering from his imagined shadow ban by Google over his brilliantly researched books on aberrant theology. And don't even get me started—it's going to be peanuts next to the heroic showdown when he takes on the Beast power, Baron Karl von Gutenberg, right there in the streets of Jerusalem.

God's greatest gift to the world and the church got his sacred, holistic knickers in an Arroyo Grande twist today over President Trump threatening the Islamist filth currently slaughtering Christians in Nigeria and elsewhere. How dare he! After all, those aren't real Christians; their deaths are regrettable, but hardly as catastrophic as what he and his followers might endure as the only true Christians gracing this planet today. 

He used to dismiss any Christian outside his tiny cult as "so-called" Christians or "Christians in name only," and now his genius new trick is to downgrade real Christians around the world as "Greco-Roman." Because, you know, that's totally not a desperate way to make himself feel superior. And, as usual, every news story and world event must be twisted into a thrilling tale all about him.

He starts right off the bat with people who "claim:" they are Christians:


Is persecution for people claiming Christianity over?
Sadly, no.

He then quotes some facts from a news article:

More than 380m Christians suffer high levels of persecution and discrimination for their faith
1 in 7 Christians are persecuted worldwide

And then writes this gem:

That is horrible; that is so wrong. People should not be killed, imprisoned, or otherwise persecuted for their faith.

Then he turns the story of persecution of people who "claim" to be Christians into one all about himself:

That said, as far as governments and persecution go, the Continuing Church of God put together the following video on our Bible News Prophecy YouTube channel...(hyperlinks removed)

New Religious Persecution
Are we seeing new forms of religious persecution popping up? Did Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy sign a law on August 24, 2024 banning the Orthodox Church in Ukraine? Did Rwanda recently shut down over 5,100 churches, including house churches? Was this really about safety or perhaps also politics? Did Rwandan President Paul Kagame state that he is considering implementing a tax on church donations? Did the Nicaraguan government, under its President Daniel Noriega, change laws on August 22, 2024 that could allow it to impose taxes of up to 30 percent of a church’s annual income? Did the Nicaraguan government recently shut does 1,500 non-governmental organizations, including 678 religious associations? Is Burundi causing issues for the churches of God because of some of its rules? Did Jesus prophesy about persecution? Will some Christians be beheaded and others burned according to biblical, as well as Greco-Roman, prophecies? Is economic 666 persecution also prophesied? What should the faithful do? Steve Dupuie and Dr. Thiel address these matters.

Bwana Bob's putridness continues with this:

Yes, there is also persecution through suppression, shadow-banning, implied threats to careers, etc. for many who dare speak on behalf of biblical standards of morality. 
 
And, of course, it is not just those who claim to be Christians that are being persecuted. Various people around the world are being persecuted for their religious beliefs. 
 
In Western cultures, persecution is often subtle and is more directed to those who espouse biblical ideas. 
 
Big Tech and various governments have taken steps to “suppress the truth in unrighteousness” (Romans 1:18) as the Apostle Paul warned.

Cancel Culture and Christian Persecution (note: all of the stuff below is in ONE rambling sermon without a clear focus)

  • What did Jesus teach about persecutions? 
  • Should Christians expect name calling and being falsely taught against? 
  • Did the Apostle Paul warn about this as well as evil deceivers increasing in the end times? 
  • Were early Christians ever murderous persecutors? 
  • Did Emperor Constantine stick to his religious tolerance ‘Edict of Milan’ in 313? What about his edict against heretics in 331? 
  • What types of persecution did Emperor Theodosius implement? 
  • Has there been a history of attempting to cancel Christian speech and practices, which were sometimes followed by physical persecution? 
  • Have Greco-Roman Catholics been involved with persecutions against believers? 
  • What about Protestants like Martin Luther or John Calvin? 
  • What about Big Tech? 
  • What about actions from Facebook Google, YouTube, and Twitter? 
  • Is shadow banning consistent with cancel culture? 
  • Is more persecution coming? 
  • Do Greco-Roman prophecies about the ‘Great Monarch’ look forward to Christians being persecuted? 
  • Could the European Union’s Digital Services Act and European Public Prosecutor’s Office be factors in future persecution? 
  • Will faithful members of the holy covenant instruct many? 
  • Will indentifying the coming King of the North trigger persecution? 
  • Will there be more persecution of the Philadelphian Christians prior to the start of the Great Tribulation? 
  • What will happen to the Laodiceans? 
  • Which Christians will be protected from the coming hour of trial, which starts with the Great Tribulation? 
  • Will the persecuting Beast, False Prophet, and those with the mark of the beast be punished? 
  • Will God reward the faithful Christians who endure persecution? 
  • Dr. Thiel addresses these and more in this sermon video.

Then has this:

Sadly, today, most who profess Jesus fail to truly recognize important aspects of the truth. And many want to make further compromises away from the truth for the sake of an unbiblical unity.

And continues down the path, making this all about himself:

So, we see that this began under Emperor Constantine and continued with Imperial support including by Empress Theodora of the 10th and 11th century (she was born in the 10th and died in the 11th century). Emperors Constantine and Theodosius, as well as Empress Theodora, claimed to be Christians–but they were not. Those false professors of Christ persecuted true believers–and such will happen again! 
 
Now, the fact that literature was also prohibited starting with Emperor Constantine reminds me of shadow-banning by Big Tech as well as allegations of “hate speech” for holding to biblical standards of morality by governments in places like Europe, the USA, Canada, UK, Australia, and New Zealand. 
 
Sadly, in the 21st century, holding to many biblical positions is considered extremist and even dangerous by various government officials.

At least two major persecutions are prophesied to come. 
 
All the faithful will be subject to persecution and being betrayed by professing believers (Matthew 24:9-13, Mark 13:12-13; Luke 21:16-18; Daniel 11:32-35). 
 
The Book of Daniel shows a two-part persecution coming from a European leader (I added the a and b below for emphasis):

25 a He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand b For a time and times and half a time. (Daniel 7:25) 
 
First of all (a), he shall persecute certain of the saints, which is consistent with what Jesus said was coming: 
 
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. (Matthew 24:9-14)

Much of the above will affect the Philadelphian Christians (cf. Revelation 12:13), but they will later be protected (Revelation 3:8-10) in the wilderness for a time, times, and half a time. Part of why they will be persecuted is for proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and probably also for identifying the coming King of the North, who will not wish to be identified that way. This will likely result in internet and other restrictions on getting the truth of God out to the world (cf. Amos 8:11-12). 

Then he says all of the Armstrongite heretics in splinter groups will then be persecuted because they were too stupid to know when to go to Petra: 

Second of all (b), the remaining saints will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. This is the portion of the COG, the non-Philadelphians, who are NOT protected in the wilderness as Revelation 12:17 shows this separation, where as Revelation 20 points to Christians being beheaded...

Then this:

While many in the Church of God have experienced economic and social persecution in their walk with Christ, future severe persecution, beginning first with the Philadelphia remnant of Christians, is expected. 
 
Murderous persecution is prophesied (cf. Daniel 11:33; Revelation 13:15). 
 
Persecution is a fact of history. It has happened before and we should be prepared for the fact that much more of it will happen again. And during the time of the final persecutions, the Bible records:

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12). 
 
Thus, though the Philadelphian Christians will be subject to intense persecution first, before this, even the Laodiceans and other Christians will receive some praise if they endure the persecutions that will then come during the time of “the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world” (Revelation 3:10). 
 
While many seem to not wish to pay attention to this subject, the reality is that persecution has existed throughout history against those with Church of God doctrines. Jesus predicted that as well as more persecution to come. Some may be shocked by certain doctrines that Christians have been persecuted for (and often persecuted by others who profess to be Christian). 
 
Those in the true Church of God have always been on the side being persecuted and have never been on the side of the persecutors. And this will be true again in the future.

As you can see, the Great Bwana Bob, reluctantly acknowledges that, yeah, sure, hundreds of millions of "so-called" or "Greco-Roman" Christians are getting persecuted, imprisoned, or straight-up killed worldwide, which is "horrible" and "so wrong." But let's not get carried away; the real tragedy here is Bob and his tiny flock facing the horrors of Google shadow-banning his profound theological masterpieces. He twists every global news bite into a spotlight on himself, plugging his YouTube videos about "new religious persecution" (starring Ukraine, Rwanda, Nicaragua, and Burundi as mere supporting acts), and warns of Big Tech's subtle tyranny against biblical morality.

And as usual, we saw him dive into a rambling sermon on historical persecutions from Constantine to Theodosius, blaming "false professors of Christ" (everyone not in his cult) for everything, while patting his own back for being on the "persecuted" side. 

Future prophecies? The Beast power and economic 666 woes are coming, but fear not—Bob's Philadelphian elite will flee to the wilderness (Petra, anyone?), while those dumb Armstrongite splinter groups get beheaded for not joining his exclusive club. Because nothing says "true Christian" like downplaying mass murders to hype your own imagined martyrdom. Patience of the saints, indeed—enduring Bob's ego must count for something!