In Armstrongism, the Gap Theory is not merely one possible interpretation of Genesis 1:1-2—it is presented as a foundational “revealed truth” that unlocks the Bible’s hidden meaning and harmonizes Scripture with the scientific evidence of an ancient earth, fossils, and dinosaurs. Armstrong wove it deeply into his theology in works like Mystery of the Ages (1985) and the booklet Did God Create a Devil?, calling it a “surprising truth… unrecognized by religion, by science and by higher education.”
Armstrongism’s Core Teaching on the Gap
Genesis 1:1 records God’s original perfect creation of the heavens and the earth “in the beginning.” This creation was beautiful, harmonious, and “very good.” It happened an unknown length of time ago—Armstrong said it “might have been millions—or even billions—of years” (or even “trillions” in some statements). This original world included plants, animals, and the full fossil record we see today.
A long, unrecorded “gap” of time follows. During this period, Lucifer (Satan) and one-third of the angels rebelled against God. Their sin turned the earth into a state of ruin and chaos. Armstrong taught that this angelic rebellion caused a global catastrophe—sometimes called “Lucifer’s flood”—that destroyed the original creation, leaving the earth “without form, and void” (tohu wa bohu—waste and empty, chaotic and in confusion).
Genesis 1:2 therefore describes the ruined earth after that catastrophe, not the initial state of creation. Armstrong emphasized: “God did not create the earth in a state of waste and confusion. The earth became chaotic as a result of the sin of the angels.” The Hebrew word hayah (“was”) is understood here as “became,” showing a transition from perfection to ruin.
Beginning in Genesis 1:3, God performs a re-creation or restoration of the earth in six literal 24-hour days, roughly 6,000 years ago. This is the week that produced the world we know, including Adam and Eve and the animals listed in Genesis 1. The original creation (including dinosaurs) is not re-created; only a new order is established on the ruined planet.
This view allows Armstrongism to accept the mainstream scientific timeline for the earth’s age and the fossil record while preserving a strictly literal six-day creation week—just not the original one.
How Armstrongism Specifically “Deals With” Dinosaurs
Dinosaurs (along with the entire pre-Adamic fossil record—trilobites, marine reptiles, extinct mammals, etc.) belong entirely to the original creation of Genesis 1:1. They lived, died, and were buried during the long gap period. When Lucifer rebelled, the resulting cataclysm wiped them out, producing the layered fossil beds and geological formations we observe today. The six-day re-creation in Genesis 1:3 onward does not include new dinosaurs; they remain only as fossils in the ground from the ruined former world.
Armstrong tied this directly to Satan’s fall: the decay, death, and destruction visible in the fossil record (including diseased bones and extinction events) resulted from angelic sin before Adam, not from human sin. This fits Armstrongism’s broader doctrine that Satan was once the ruler of the earth, that sin and chaos entered creation through him, and that the six-day week was God’s act of restitution—a preview of the ultimate “restitution of all things” (Acts 3:21) at the end of the age.
Key Differences from the General Gap Theory
The version taught in Armstrongism is essentially the classic “ruin-reconstruction” or “Lucifer’s flood” form of the Gap Theory, but presented with unique emphasis:
The version taught in Armstrongism is essentially the classic “ruin-reconstruction” or “Lucifer’s flood” form of the Gap Theory, but presented with unique emphasis:
It is not just a scientific accommodation—it is central to understanding God’s plan, the origin of evil, and why the earth was in chaos when the Spirit of God began moving on the waters in Genesis 1:2.
Armstrong rejected evolution but fully embraced deep time via the gap, insisting the Bible itself requires it.
He used the same proof texts as other gap theorists (Isaiah 45:18, Jeremiah 4:23, Isaiah 34:11, Ezekiel 28, etc.) but framed them as “God’s revelation” through him as apostle.
A Note on Broader Scholarship
While Armstrongism holds this as essential doctrine, the grammatical, contextual, and theological problems with the Gap Theory (the waw-disjunctive structure of Genesis 1:2 forbidding a chronological gap, the normal meaning of “was” rather than “became,” the lack of any biblical mention of a prior world or Lucifer’s flood, and the conflict with passages like Exodus 20:11 and Romans 5:12) remain the same as outlined in the earlier responses. Most Hebrew scholars and creationist organizations across the spectrum still consider it unsupported by the text itself.
In Armstrongism, however, the Gap Theory is embraced as the correct understanding that resolves the apparent conflict between Genesis and the fossil/dinosaur evidence—placing the ancient world and its destruction firmly in the unmentioned “gap” while keeping the six literal days of re-creation intact.
Yes, the Gap Theory directly attempts to "deal with" dinosaurs (and the broader fossil record) by placing them in the supposed long period of time between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.
How the Gap Theory Handles Dinosaurs
Genesis 1:1 is interpreted as God’s original, perfect creation of the heavens and the earth — a fully functional world that included plants, animals, and creatures like dinosaurs (and possibly other extinct life forms or even "pre-Adamic" beings in some versions).
During this ancient "gap" period (millions or billions of years), the geological ages unfolded, dinosaurs lived and died, and the fossil record formed.
Then, a catastrophic judgment — often called "Lucifer’s flood" or a global cataclysm linked to Satan’s rebellion and fall — destroyed that original world, leaving the earth "without form and void" (tohu wa bohu) as described in Genesis 1:2.
Starting in Genesis 1:3, God begins a re-creation or restoration of the earth in six literal days, populating it with new animals and eventually Adam and Eve. The dinosaurs from the gap period do not appear in this re-created world (except perhaps as fossils in the ground).
This approach allows gap theorists to accept the mainstream scientific view that dinosaurs lived and went extinct tens of millions of years ago, while still holding to a literal six-day creation week (just not the original creation).
Common Details in Gap Theory Versions
Dinosaurs and the entire fossil record (trilobites, marine reptiles, mammals, etc.) belong to the pre-gap "original creation."
Death, suffering, and extinction happened long before Adam’s sin — the catastrophe in the gap is blamed for the mass die-off.
Some versions also squeeze in ice ages, "ape-men," or other prehistoric elements into this gap.
Criticisms of This Explanation (from Young-Earth Creationist Perspectives)
Young-earth creationist groups (such as Answers in Genesis, ICR, and Creation Ministries International) strongly reject this handling of dinosaurs for several reasons:
- It introduces death and suffering on a massive scale before Adam’s fall, which conflicts with passages like Romans 5:12 (death entered through sin) and the idea that the original creation was "very good."
The Hebrew grammar of Genesis 1:2 does not support a chronological gap or a "became" ruined state, as explained previously.
Exodus 20:11 says God made everything (heavens, earth, sea, and all in them) in six days — leaving no room for a prior creation full of dinosaurs.
Dinosaurs can be accounted for without a gap: they were created on Day 6 as land animals (Genesis 1:24-25), lived alongside humans, and most died in Noah’s Flood (with some possibly surviving briefly afterward). Biblical descriptions like Behemoth in Job 40 are sometimes seen as fitting certain dinosaurs.
Reasons Why the Gap Can't Be Supported
The Gap Theory claims that a vast period of time (millions or billions of years), including Lucifer’s rebellion and a global catastrophe (“Lucifer’s flood”), occurred between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. It places dinosaurs and the fossil record in this “gap,” while Genesis 1:3 onward describes a six-day re-creation. This view, popularized in Armstrongism, attempts to reconcile the Bible with an old earth. However, it is fundamentally flawed for several key reasons:
- Hebrew Grammar Forbids It
- Genesis 1:2 begins with a waw-disjunctive construction (a standard Hebrew way to give background information). It does not allow a chronological gap or the translation of “was” (hayah) as “became.” The verse simply describes the initial unformed state of the earth, not a ruined world after catastrophe.
- No Scriptural Support for a Prior World
- The Bible never mentions a pre-Adamic creation, Lucifer’s flood, or a ruined earth before the six days. Exodus 20:11 clearly states that God made the heavens, earth, sea, and everything in them in six days — leaving no room for an earlier creation and destruction.
- Theological Problems with Death Before Sin
- The theory places widespread death, suffering, and extinction (including dinosaurs) before Adam’s fall. This contradicts Romans 5:12 and 1 Corinthians 15:21–22, which teach that death entered the world through human sin, not through angelic rebellion.
- Misinterpretation of Key Phrases
- The phrase “without form and void” (tohu wa bohu) describes the raw, unformed state of creation before God shaped and filled it — not a state of judgment or ruin. Isaiah 45:18 simply means God did not create the earth to remain empty, not that an initial formless state was impossible.
In short, the Gap Theory is an understandable but unsuccessful 19th-century attempt to accommodate deep time. It reads ideas into the text that are not present and creates more contradictions than it solves. The straightforward reading of Genesis 1 presents one creation event: God created the heavens and earth, initially unformed and unfilled, then shaped and filled it in six literal days.
This interpretation upholds the unity and clarity of Scripture without forcing an artificial gap between the first two verses.
This interpretation upholds the unity and clarity of Scripture without forcing an artificial gap between the first two verses.
One of the main reasons people adopt or promote the Gap Theory is precisely to "deal with" dinosaurs and the fossil record by shoving them into that unmentioned ancient period. However, as noted, the theory itself is not supported by the actual text of Genesis or standard Hebrew exegesis. It remains a popular attempt at harmonizing the Bible with deep time, but it creates more theological and textual problems than it solves for many Bible believers.
HWA, imo, threw out the baby with the bath water on this one. What really makes everything come together is God-directed evolution, ie the realization that evolution is simply one of the tools in God's arsenal. It takes into account the seeming communication between and parallel evolution of the various species, amongst which there is symbiosis. The creation is an ecology system in which all species' needs are met by one another. Guided by God, it resolves problems with the laws of probability, thus surviving the rigors of statistical analysis.
ReplyDeleteCreation week is somewhat like the debates regarding Jesus' time in the tomb in terms of the nuances of the Hebrew language. There is much room for relativity within the creation narrative, and imagery and metaphor as well. The periods of creation involved with the time keepers (sun, moon, celestial bodies) would need to be extremely long, and the plants and animals relatively long as well. Certainly not 24 hour periods. It all fits, all makes sense if only one moves past the way primitive goat herders would interpret the verbiage, and injects the growth in intellect that mankind has experienced into it. If only Herbert W. Armstrong had been familiar with the wisdom and teachings of Nachmanides, he would not have needed to go down the rabbit hole of Gap Theory Creation. Never heard of Nachmanides? Check him out! Don't die wondering!
You can be a Christian and believe that God used evolution as one of His primary creational processes. Evolution is great, unless you try to use it to edit God out of the process. I guess HWA thought the Gap Theory was a better vehicle for retaining God than was theistic evolution. He was a product of his times.
BB
BB
ReplyDeleteand if I may add to your comment. In a broader sociological context Fundamentalism's rise (in the 1920's) was the EXPRESS sociological reaction and response to the theory of (societal) evolution that was taking over all institutions of american society as "woke" has today.
HWA the express proponent of the anti-movement toward a broader sociological phenomenon.
ALL his initial literature and writings rail against EVOLUTION.
nck
Satan and his demons rejecting God's way resulted in the ruin of the planet. History is about to repeat. Revelation 8:9 states that a third of sea creatures will die, and eventually "every living thing in the sea" during the second bowl judgment in Revelation 16:3 will perish. And again God will miraculously bring these creatures into being. The flood and Sodom and Gomorrah also conform to this pattern.
ReplyDeleteGod is quality, and into quality control.
A great post, and a great first comment by Byker Bob. In hindsight, the glaring flaws in Armstrong's version of creation become painfully apparent. His ham-handed attempt to make Genesis 1 fit the evidence we see all around us was doomed on the day he crafted it. Once again, this stems from his own clear ignorance of Scripture and science, and his insistence on the inerrancy and literalism of the Bible.
ReplyDeleteI have always viewed the Bible's creation story as an emphatic statement that the Hebrew God was the Creator of our world by an ancient people without access to much verifiable scientific evidence. From the modern perspective, the particulars are clearly wrong. The stars and our sun came into existence long before the earth became a functioning planet. There is also clear evidence of several mass extinction events in the geologic record of earth. Likewise, the fossil record provides us with clear evidence that dinosaurs and other now extinct life forms once roamed the earth.
Personally, I don't see any conflict between my religious beliefs, and the plethora of evidence which demonstrates that life on this planet evolved over great expanses of time. Like Byker, evolution becomes one of the principal tools which God used to shape the world in which we live. In short, God is greater than any human attempts to explain "him" or the way(s) in which "he" operates. God is NOT limited by human understanding or ignorance!
Many fundamentalists believe in the gap theory, because of the influence of the Scofield Bible. It's strange that the fundamentalists, who believe in the sola scripture idea would accept such a notion, since there's no 'gap' in the sacred text.
ReplyDeleteKen Ham of "Ark Encounter" fame claims dinosaurs were in Noah's Ark! Then they died in some kind of great "ice age" after the flood waters disappeared.
ReplyDeleteThat strikes me as even more biblically unsupportable, compared with the WCG explanation - an explanation I first heard in a taped message by Herman Hoeh.
BB 1212
ReplyDeleteI was thinking the exact same thing how this topic resembles our debates on the timing in the tomb, the Godhead, the flood, etc. We lack definitive answers.
The are many variations concerning the creation account, of which the Gap theory is but one. It is interesting to note that Bullinger, by a number of years, published data on the Gap (and 3 days, 3 nights) before God decided to reveal said truths to our Apostle. How does one justify that? Personally, I'm satisfied with Bullinger's conclusions, but I'm not here to defend those nor force my opinion on anyone. What I would like to do is deal with a couple of the objections the post brings up.
In Exodus 20, it reads, "the Lord MADE" (not created) the heavens and the earth. This is a small thing but the terminology is different. Making something versus creating something? Think about it. They are different, and this verse fits very well in post Gap theory.
Romans 5:12 says, "for as by one MAN sin entered into the WORLD, and death by sin (death for who?), so death passed upon all MEN, for that all have sinned".
1 Corinthians 15:22, " for as in ADAM all die. Even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive". Does "ALL" include the dinosaurs or is the context here clearly "humanity"?
Adam and Eve were the first humans to sin, but Scripture clearly teaches sin existed before them. The serpent's deception in the garden was sin. Christ said Satan fell from heaven, and that he was a murderer from the beginning. Both Peter and Jude testify that the angels sinned at some point in time. The question is, when did these events occur? Before or after the Garden?
" The Gap theory creates more theological and textual problems than it solves"?? True, but which version doesn't have problems? Perhaps that's one of the reasons Christianity is divided into 41,000 denominations.
If we define sin as being the opposite of the law, then it existed as an intellectual possibility from the second the law was created. The minute you become aware of a positive, you also become aware of the negative of that positive. That is one of the underlying principles behind yin and yang! Unfortunately, one automatically exists as a function of the other. Even if the Serpent had not pointed it out, Adam and Eve would have inevitably become aware of it on their own. Original sin was an inevitability. Now, my question is, how does one get rid of the knowledge of or experience of sin? You'd need to blot out all of history, and your entire memory bank to do that! How will that factor into daily life in the Kingdom? It would be not unlike only remembering even numbers. I don't understand how one could do that!
DeleteI remember a chap I worked with claiming dinosaurs were not scriptural and saying anyone can dump any old bones anywhere and claim they are millions of years old. I laugh at it now. I am not sure what denomination he belonged too, but it must of been way out there in never never land lol. Of all creatures on this blue globe called earth, mankind is the most intriguing species here. While I do not believe in evolution I do believe humanity has been here more than 6000 years. So many questions so few answers. What is sure is that Armstrongites believe they have the answers lol. Yes I believed that once also lol.
ReplyDeleteThe killing of the dinosaurs and the planet being trashed because of sin is repeated in type in the old testament. For instance, Ezekiel 14:17 “Or if I bring a sword against that country and say, ‘Let the sword pass throughout the land,’ and I kill its people and their animals," From Google:
ReplyDeletePurpose of Desolation: This desolation is meant to humble the people and fulfill covenant curses promised in Leviticus 26, where God says He will lay waste to the cities and bring a sword that results in the land becoming "desolate, without man or beast".
Didn't the dinosaurs die so that we could have oil today? I believe that was once a theory. Even today, in car enthusiast magazines, two types of oil are described: dino and synth.
DeleteHerbie very likely was off on reading Genesis 1:1-3 the same way is pre-existing Gap theorists. to avoid the grammatical issue, while upholding some form of Gap Theory. NAB and NRSV make a point about saying “when…”
ReplyDeleteReferences to Adam and sin refer to the human theological/spiritual condition, not geological history. Read them in that context.
I say this with an interest toward honest treatment of the Bible, which is a compilation of human writings, but which some of you believe to be the Word of God.
I totally get ragging on Herbie with something like this, but “theistic evolution“ offered here sounds more like an attempt simply to disagree with Armstrong for the sake of disagreeing.
, and following the knee jerk reaction leading you to be a “liberal.” Kind of like how some here defend the atheism of the Apostate Sisters, only you didn’t go quite as far. Indeed, if that were not the case, those people would be upholding Young Earth Creationism.
Folks, just because Armstrong said it doesn’t mean it’s not accidentally biblically accurate. Remember the broken clock.
That previous message didn’t Come out as bad as I thought it would. Please show charity in reading it.
DeleteI was going to add to it that a problem with “theistic evolution“ in countering Gap is that the other critics point out death entering through Adam as an argument against it, while this evolution approach has a lot of death before the Adam mentioned in Jesus’ genealogy. This is not a killshot, but it does require the evolution proponent to take a paragraph from the Gap people.
You are to be forgiven for assuming knee jerk and lack of depth, Blogger Walker. Obviously, in dissecting this topic, you have never encountered Gerald Schroeder. Read "Genesis and the Big Bang", and perhaps you will no longer need to fall back on Hannity cliches about liberals when you happen to disagree with someone.
DeleteNot sure, but I think I sent a message prematurely. If another message appears, please understand the editing was not complete. But the point should get across.
ReplyDeleteThank you.
If there was no previous message… never mind!
BP8 writes:
ReplyDelete“Personally, I'm satisfied with Bullinger's conclusions...”
That’s good news, for this is what Bullinger wrote in Appendix 156:
“We have therefore THE FOLLOWING FACTS furnished for our sure guidance:
“6. THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK,” THE DAY OF THE RESURRECTION (Matt. 28;1, &c.), was from our Saturday sunset to our Sunday sunset”.
Later:
“... RISING FROM THE DEAD ON “THE THIRD DAY”, THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK”.
But this contradicts what he also wrote [plus all that went with it in the appendixes]:
“Thus the resurrection of the Lord took place at out Saturday sunset or thereabouts. ‘on the third day”; cp. “after three days” (Matt. 27:63. Mark 8:31).
If one is using modern-western counting “after three days” is the fourth day.
BP8 I saw in your post to the earlier thread that it was informed by Appendix 48 even quoting directly from it: “cannot possibly be so reckoned”.
As an aside:
Mt 27:62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
Mt 27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, AFTER THREE DAYS I WILL RISE AGAIN.
Mt 27:64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure UNTIL [HEŌS] THE THIRD DAY, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
Using a hypothetical that Jesus was killed on a Wednesday, and using Jewish inclusive reckoning, then Friday was the third day from Wednesday.
The chief priests and Pharisees come to Pilate on a Thursday and argue for a secured sepulchre because because Jesus said “ AFTER THREE DAYS I WILL RISE AGAIN”.
Mt 17:23 And they shall kill him, and THE THIRD DAY HE SHALL BE RAISED AGAIN
Mk 8:31... and be killed, and AFTER THREE DAYS RISE AGAIN.
Pilate would have understood from the idioms, after three days/on the third day, that Friday was the day Jesus would have risen.
So on that Thursday, the day of request, Pilate commanded the sepulchre to be made sure UNTIL [HEŌS] THE THIRD DAY.
The third day from Thursday, using Jewish inclusive reckoning, is the Sabbath.
So Pilate provided one day’s extra protection.
So if the “until the third day” is counted as a full day and the guards left at the end of that third day then on Sunday morning there would be no “keepers” outside the tomb.
The guards being present on Sunday morning works with Friday as the day of the crucifixion and if one accepts Jewish inclusive reckoning:
“The phrase heōs tēs tritēs hēmeras, “until the third day,” reckoned from the time of the request (i.e. Saturday), would provide one’s days extra protection...” (Donald A. Hagner Matthew 14-28, WBC, p. 862).
(Instead of the Greek I have used the transliteration).
I think most who argue for a Wednesday crucifixion would agree with HWA:
“These things were not done until Thursday, and SUNDAY TRULY WAS THE THIRD DAY SINCE THURSDAY” (The Resurrection was not on Sunday).
But this is modern-western counting pressed on ancient-near eastern literature and drawing the wrong conclusion.
Part 2
ReplyDeleteGe 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Ge 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Ge 2:4 These are the generations [ toledot] of the heavens and of the earth when they were created [bara'], in the day that the LORD God made [`asah] the earth and the heavens,
My preference is for verse 1 to be a heading similar to the toledot (eleven times in Genesis). With 1:2 being a “circumstantial clause”; and 2:1 as a summary/conclusion of the six days of creation:
“That first sentence then came to have concrete meaning only after the completion of creation” (John E. Hartley, Genesis p.41).
“A central feature of the Priestly world view is the belief that the world order is a created order, brought into being by Yahweh. Indeed, at the heart of Priestly theology is the belief that Yahweh brought into being an ordered world and that at the heart of that created order is a ritual order...
“The Priestly [read Mosaic] creation account in Gen. 1:1-2:4a gives clear expression to this concern for order. It can be characterized as a process in which God brings into existence or constructs the order of creation. The Priests present the creative work of God as the establishing of order and they contrast the order of creation with the ever present threat of chaos. Von Rad characterizes the Priestly creation account as a movement from chaos to cosmos and argues that the true concern of the account is ‘to give prominence, form, and order to the creation out of chaos’. The very nature of this account, with its seven day temporal framework and its formulaic way of expressing the various acts, points to a concern for order.
“... the order of creation was brought about through the separation and classifications of the basic elements of creation. Order is brought about through divisions, separations, and distinctions between one element and another. It is only as these lines of demarcation, or boundaries, are established that order is realized. If true, it means that divisions must be recognized and maintained if the created order is to continue and exist and not collapse into confusion and chaos...
“In the priestly writings the two most significant threats to order are sin and defilement. It thus becomes necessary for a means to be established by which the created order may be maintained and, when necessary, restored...” (Frank H. Gorman, Jr. Ideology of Ritual: Space, Time and Status in the Priestly Theology, JSOT Sup 91, (Sheffield: JSOT Press, 1990), pp.39-42).
The problem with the Gap Theory is that it does not have any support in the geologic record. As I recall, Armstrongists believe that God created the earth “to be inhabited”, that is, it was a nice place for humans from the beginning. Then there was some kind of rebellion that resulted in the alteration of the earth that made it inimical to human life. And Genesis one after the first clause of the first verse depicts God’s recovery from this cataclysmic event and the earth’s habitability was once again established.
ReplyDeleteThe geologic record does not reflect this. Instead, we find evolutionary development, likely from an original cell. That cell is referred to as the Last Universal Common Ancestor or LUCA for short. Everything is descended from a single original life cell (or group of cells). That evolutionary development is reflected in our genomes today. We share about 60 percent of are genomes with bananas. Wild bananas are found in the fossil record dating to 43 million years ago, back in the Eocene. This points to a common ancestor and a lengthy flow of genetic development. And it is what is found throughout the geologic record. There is no Eden-like state followed by a cataclysm and then another Eden-like state shown in the geologic record.
This leads to the conclusion that God created an original living cell and then manipulated it to produce the diversity of life on earth. So, where does that leave Genesis chapter 1. It supports the idea that it is an allegory. When we read it, we are not reading science but poetry. The important datum is that God is Creator. This kind of rational explanation is not found in the mythologies of other ancient near eastern peoples.
Scout
Thanks Scout. ‘That God created an original living cell and then manipulated it to produce the diversity of life on earth…’. Interesting. The basic building blocks of all living systems are proteins, which consist of 20 different types of amino acids and the average number of these acids is about 300 per protein. The problem is that amino acids are destroyed in the presence of oxygen. Oxygen is a poisonous gas’s that oxidises organic and non organic material and is lethal to them unless they have developed protection against it. So the ‘first’ cells must of developed on an earth not containing oxygen. But the evidence points to earth always containing oxygen. I can provide the sources if required. If there was no oxygen, life could not develop. Catch 22 really, if we have oxygen no organic compounds, if we don’t have it we have none either lol. Fascinating subject and as we look on ‘how’ life may have evolved we need to consider how they developed consisting of vast amounts of information and we need to consider the source of that info and how it was encoded into the genome. That’s where God comes in. That we share 60% of our genome with bananas is no surprise considering the behaviour of us as a species lol. Cheers.
Delete331
ReplyDeleteIt's my understanding that Bullinger believed Christ would be in the heart of the earth (the grave) for 3 days and 3 nights, as He said. This means the countdown began when He was buried, not when He died. If He was buried at Wednesday sunset, the resurrection would occur at Saturday sunset. Which ever day you want to label at the exact point of Saturday sunset would be the resurrection day for you. Bullinger chooses to call that time point the first day of the week. Some would call it a sabbath resurrection, especially for those like HWA who started his count at the time of Christ's death, which was late Wednesday afternoon.
Hi BP8
ReplyDeleteYou wrote:
“If He was buried at Wednesday sunset, the resurrection would occur at Saturday sunset.”
Jn 19:42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.
Lk 23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
Lk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments: and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
Jesus wasn’t buried at sunset.
You also wrote:
“Bullinger chooses to call that time point the first day of the week. Some would call it a sabbath resurrection”.
"6. THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK," THE DAY OF THE RESURRECTION (Matt. 28;1, &c.), WAS FROM OUR SATURDAY SUNSET TO OUR SUNDAY SUNSET".
No he didn’t. He defined the first day of the week, day of resurrection, as being from Saturday sunset to Sunday sunset. Which he noted was a FACT.
So how do you call it a Sabbath resurrection when it is against Bullinger’s definition that it occurred on the first day week, that is on Sunday?
Of course I am only using the statements that contradict his argument for a Saturday resurrection.
502 asks, "how do you call it a sabbath resurrection when it goes against Bullinger's definition that it occurred on the first day of the week, Sunday"?
DeleteI'm not calling it anything. I'm merely trying to relay the points Bullinger makes. You have the same Companion Bible I have. His timing on the crucifixion and resurrection is delt with in Appendixes 144, 148, 156, 166, with additional verse by verse commentary throughout the gospel accounts. We are dealing with a massive amount of material, and I wish not to rewrite it all down here. I will however give a summary on what I perceive to be Bullinger's timeline.
According to him, Christ died on Wednesday, 3 pm, the 9th hour. This is where HWA starts his count. 72 hours later, HWA arrives at 3 pm Saturday, making it a sabbath resurrection. Since removing the body from the cross, and burial takes time, Bullinger says He was laid in the tomb around 5pm (the 11 th hour) and the sepulchre was finally sealed at sunset, 6pm. This is where Bullinger starts his count. 72 hours from Wednesday 6 pm (the sealing of the sepulchre) brings you to 6pm sunset Saturday, the resurrection, which he interprets as being the first day of the week.
Like Bullinger and HWA, you can interpret this anyway you please, but whether according to Bullinger's timeline it's a sabbath or Sunday resurrection boils down to a matter of SECONDS. One could interpret it either way. There is prophetic symbolism that could apply to either view.
BP8:
Deletemaybe this has been mentioned before, but Iremember a WCG feast of Tabernacle where minister claimed that they had never made clear that they were TWO3 day periods — One starting at the guy’s death, and the other starting at the guy’s burial. According to this, Jesus Was resurrected, but stayed in the tomb for a while until it was time for him to leave. So both 3-day prophecies were met. As I said, he said that WCG had never made that clear.
Don’t ask me who it was, or what year it was. I just know it was some time between 1989 and 1994.
I also know that Hoeh at one time claimed that Jesus was resurrected and/or left the tomb, just after sundown on Saturday. He said that in conjunction with the Pentecost change. The late Jerry Falwell, according to World Net Daily, believed something very similar. That is why he had no problem with Easter Sunday.
Personally, I believe the whole thing is just a bunch of believers in a dead messiah trying to piece together a resurrection myth, and they couldn’t quite get their chronology straight. And as a result, believers in the story for trying to square the continuity — much like how people try to figure out how Padme could die in childbirth, yet Leia somehow had memory of her. (And don’t say it was the Force!) But in trying to square all of this material they put out, Wednesday/Saturday does it seem like the best fit, with the lesser speculative stretching of intent and plausibility (the Luke 23:56 gap versus a second purchase of spices as if the initial 75 pounds wasn’t enough.) It even offers a possibility of linking in “Lord’s Day” as Sunday (via a post-Sundown resurrection and/or departure from the tomb), and a sorta-justification for Easter. Friday/Sunday just seems like a Western Church tradition influenced cognitively and theologically by non-observance of Leviticus 23, and with non-biblical overtones.
Hi BP8 - looks like we have to agree to disagree --- time will tell who is right and who is wrong - Shabbat Shalom
DeleteIt is always wise to be more rooted in scripture than in our own opinions.
ReplyDeleteScripture refuting evolution is strong. Found in Genesis, Psalms, Hebrews and Romans to name but a few.
1. God created distinct life forms "after their kind". Genesis 1:11-35. The phrase "according to it's kind" is repeated 10 times in Genesis 1. Highlighting the creation of distinct, fixed biological barriers, which contradicts the idea that one species can evolve into another.
2. The Creation of Man. Genesis 2:7 Man's creation was special, formed directly from the dust of the ground by God, not from a pre-existing animal or a toile human ancestor. Mans creation indicates a unique creation seperate from the animal world.
3. Instantaneous creation. Psalm 33:6-9 "By the word of the LORD the heavens were made..For he spoke, and it was done, he commanded and it stood fast"
Scripture contradicts the long, gradual and slow timeline of evolutionary theory.
God created instantly via spoken word rarther than through millions of years of death-driven change.
4. Finished work. Genesis 2:1 Scripture states the heavens and earth were "finished", implying that God's work of creation was completed in the beginning rather than on going through evolution.
5. Death came through sin Romans 5:13. Scripture teaches that death entered the world through Adam and Eves sin, whereas evolution requires millions of years of death, violence and disease before humans existed.
6. Creation from nothing Hebrews 11:3 The universe was created by the word of God out of what is not visible, refuting the notion that life evolved from pre-existing material.
Genesis 2:1 "Thus the heavens and the earth wete finished and all the host of them." Creation was complete. Humans and animals and all species complete.
As we've discovered, opinions still persist even as we rely on scriptures. As Armstrongites, we faithfully committed to memory Herbert W. Armstrong's opinion on any given scripture. Even as we discuss, some quote respected commentators who agree with or influenced HWA. If only Jesus were here to explain these things to us, we'd have definitive answers!
DeleteI'm 12:25 and never sat through a HWA sermon in my life.
DeleteWhy, how spiritual, 12:02! Then what brought you to a place at which we discuss the HWAcaca??? Did you come here to let gas?
DeleteDinosaurs are a conundrum to Creationists. I have often puzzled over why Jesus would create a creature like T. Rex. T. Rex was a monstrous creature. The sight of him would cause any of us to run for cover. For most people arguing creationism, the issue of dinosaurs has to do with how do we place them in the timeline of geologic history. For me, it is the question of how such a horrid, unaesthetic and predatory creature as T. Rex could be created by a benevolent God. I think the issue of T. Rex very quickly becomes a question of theodicy. And theodicy is the weakest part Christian theology in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteThe solution to the T. Rex problem I think will be found in the renewal of all things (apokatastasis) promised by Jesus. We have three stages: the original creation, the Cross and the restoration. Christ not only became our reconciliation to God and his way but the reconciliation for the entire Cosmos. It says in Joh 3:16: “For God so loved the Cosmos….” You find in this scenario the Christus Victor understanding of the Patristics. T. Rex is a part of the Cosmos. We have seen him in his initial form but we do not know is final disposition, after the Cross. And it is the final disposition that is of eternal value. There is much to this and I have nowhere seen a fully developed theory.
{Note: An object lesson to us. T. Rex as an ugly biological monster of great power. But he is not so powerful as a human being with a weapon. Such a human being can also be quite a monster. Jurassic Park taught us that.)
Scout
Scout: “ {Note: An object lesson to us. T. Rex as an ugly biological monster of great power. But he is not so powerful as a human being with a weapon. Such a human being can also be quite a monster. Jurassic Park taught us that.)”
DeleteAh, the Marlin 1895 in .45-70 Government — probably the only rifle ever IRL marketed as rated for T-Rexes.
https://gunmagwarehouse.com/blog/marlin-1895-45-70-why-you-need-a-t-rex-rated-rifle/
Man, I wish the Armstrong problem had been nipped in the bud back in the fifties, by a more logically thinking radio audience. Permit me to travel back in time to allow you, the readers, to listen in on the proper response to the World Tomorrow Program:
ReplyDeleteWife: "Honey, listen to what I been hearin' on the radio!"
Husband: "Tarnation, Louweezie! It's the right color, but it sure don't smell like any chocolate I ever seen!"
Why assume creationists think this or that. How boring it must be to assume what others think, when it is impossible to really know what others think.
ReplyDeleteDinosaurs are most likely to be the biblical Behemoth and Leviathan. To have died out in Noahs flood.
Although relatives to T rex still exist to this day on earth, bizarrely the common chicken and crocodiles. Modern birds are technically considered living dinosaurs, they are the closet living relatives to dinosaurs.
Byker, Miller/Lonnie, and especially Scout:
ReplyDeleteBasic question for you all: What is your biblical support for some sort of theistic evolution? Just wondering what you’re using.
Genesis 1 is primary support, only acknowledging that each day lasted for whatever amount of time was required for the specified activity to take place. It is illogical to assume that you can backwrite today's specific 24 hour day into the creation narrative. Especially since the sun and moon (time keepers of the lunar-solar calendar) did not even exist until the fourth day. There could not be literal 24 hour days until the celestial body which defines those days (sun) was created. Also, God works with flex time. He is not bound by the physical time-space continuum, although He did bind himself to his childrens' physical perceptions when He lived in the tent during the time of Moses, and in the first Temple from Solomon's time until its destruction. Actually, God's time is flex-time. "A day is as a thousand years" was most likely another one of the early Hebrew idioms which attempts to quantify God.
ReplyDeleteI do not believe that the earliest scrolls which Moses used as his references even mentioned the sabbath as the final day of creation week. I believe that that was back-written into Genesis during the Babylonian captivity, by the scribes and priests who revised and edited the Torah, unwittingly preparing it for the time of the second temple.
God also seems very aware of the evolution of the human race via His selective revelations, the various covenants with mankind, and ultimately, his well-timed sending of Jesus for the redemption of man. If you read the Bible, mankind is not static. There isn't one simplistic snap shot in time which is lived over and over and over. The Bible is not boring in that way! Man is a dynamic, challenging being, exhibiting growth throughout the millennia of his existence, thus making him a very visible microcosm of the evolutionary processes. Surely you realize that from living in our own times and witnessing man as highly developed as compared with the human characters in the Bible.
BB