tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post5190688712938591167..comments2024-03-28T17:11:16.934-07:00Comments on Banned by HWA! News and Observations About Armstrongism and the Church of God Movement: A "Clarion Call" :: The Pitfalls of Ministry and the Voices in Their Heads NO2HWAhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02018654662518613623noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-35940693992125818962019-07-11T18:53:56.471-07:002019-07-11T18:53:56.471-07:00A conversation between 10:39am and himself 1:05pm:...A conversation between 10:39am and himself 1:05pm:<br /><br />You're ignorant.<br /><br />No, you're ignorant.<br /><br />You're ignorance is palpable.<br /><br />Maybe so, but you're ignorant.<br /><br />So says the ignoramus.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-32359749209837062172019-07-11T18:00:49.349-07:002019-07-11T18:00:49.349-07:001:05pm Is that how intelligence works? Anyone disa...1:05pm Is that how intelligence works? Anyone disagreeing with you is automatically labelled "ignorant"? Ok, got it!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-6887167773202631912019-07-11T17:55:55.864-07:002019-07-11T17:55:55.864-07:001:05pm So your pushback wasn't because of the ...1:05pm So your pushback wasn't because of the use of the word amoral but you pushed back because of NEO assuming that he knows atheists or agnostics. Much like you assuming you know Christians I guess. Obviously you never were one, though you hung out with us, so what makes you an expert on Christians more than NEO an expert on God deniers?I<br /><br />As I said, an atheist's morality is merely for show in the hopes of showing themselves better than christians. I know, I know, you'll disagree. So what, facts are facts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-19531738032536913292019-07-11T13:05:03.244-07:002019-07-11T13:05:03.244-07:00Why the baseless assumption that my pushback was s...Why the baseless assumption that my pushback was solely in regards to NEO's use of the word amoral?<br /><br />And it seems you have no idea that there's a difference between <a href="https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/denotation" rel="nofollow">denotation</a> and <a href="https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/connotation" rel="nofollow">connotation</a>.<br /><br />Your response is more proof of the ignorance I was talking about. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-91791910724194119092019-07-11T12:38:42.988-07:002019-07-11T12:38:42.988-07:00Why the hostility towards NEO for using the word a...<br />Why the hostility towards NEO for using the word amoral?<br /><br />There's a difference between amoral and immoral.<br /><br /><a href="https://www.vocabulary.com/articles/chooseyourwords/amoral-immoral/" rel="nofollow">Click here</a><br /><br /><br />Seems your response is more proof that atheists want to be seen as more moral than christians whether they really are or not, and getting defensive merely strengthens the idea that it's all for show.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-55320256303833254532019-07-11T10:39:05.879-07:002019-07-11T10:39:05.879-07:00Near_Earth_Object said...
"These are cliched ...Near_Earth_Object said...<br />"<i>These are cliched responses...</i>"<br /><br />Yet NEO stirred the pot and kicked off the debate with the most cliched comment of them all, a cliche that he enjoys rehashing over and over:<br /><br />"<i>On another blog years ago I stated that atheists were amoral...</i>"<br /><br />Don't know what gives ignorant NEO the idea he knows the first thing about atheists or agnostics. All he does is display his ignorance over and over again and seems incapable of learning anything. The more people try to explain it to him, the more he doubles down on his ignorance. Why bother?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-32226525378480052742019-07-11T08:27:22.492-07:002019-07-11T08:27:22.492-07:00Bart Ehrman's claim is that he doesn't kno...Bart Ehrman's claim is that he doesn't know if a god exists. That the christian god, as he understands it, can not exist in his mind because what kind of "all knowing" and "all loving" god can allow all this suffering if he has the power to stop it.<br /><br />He's never been shown the possibility that god made us so that we can learn to hate sin and in order to learn that we must suffer the consequences of sin. What if he really is a god who has an awesome future in store for us but in order to give us that we must build character? The suffering would have to be compared side by side with the possible potential of the future. Since we don't really know what that potential is, how can we judge god, if that really is what he's doing?<br /><br />I'm not saying this is definately what's going on down here below, for there's no way to absolutely prove that. But if it is correct it's not something that I want to question just because I'm unable to fathom it in this life. If it's not correct, then when I die it won't matter either way. <br /><br />What I do know is that with this "belief" that I have, I have no need for a church organization, nor a man to follow. <br /><br />So without a man or an organization telling me what I must do, or trying to steal my money or time, just who is my above mentioned belief hurting?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-71611108701976184632019-07-11T08:12:07.796-07:002019-07-11T08:12:07.796-07:00NEO said: "The fact that atheists may possess...NEO said: "The fact that atheists may possess morality without any connection to god supports this understanding."<br /><br /><br />Unfortunately that "fact" can never be proven because from the earliest times a belief in a god has existed. In this world it's impossible to have "no connection" with the idea of a god.<br /><br />Perhaps in a world far, far, away, where no concept of a god has ever existed, it might be possible to find out if humans, without religion, can be moral beings. I highly doubt it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-48321245942054936852019-07-11T08:09:16.860-07:002019-07-11T08:09:16.860-07:00HWA documented quite clearly he was a failed busin...HWA documented quite clearly he was a failed businessman . Every venture he tried besides religion, ended up in failure.<br />Then HWA found the religion business model where everything flowed up the pyramid to the top.<br />He died in the money.<br />Did he really care if Joe was a good successor? He had already discard his family.<br />Did HWA really believe what he taught?TLAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-42706018726308392542019-07-11T07:41:35.684-07:002019-07-11T07:41:35.684-07:00Of course you do Byker.
Perhaps that CC poster, in...Of course you do Byker.<br />Perhaps that CC poster, in denim shorts in the shed too?<br /><br />Regarding her DNA, she's a descendant of charlemain too like a hundred million others.<br /><br />Ncknckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580008070423402328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-72834184837710549512019-07-11T07:37:53.829-07:002019-07-11T07:37:53.829-07:00These are cliched responses of the sort: "Ath...These are cliched responses of the sort: "Atheists can be moral and are even better people than some Christians." I do not challenge this statement. I know some moral atheists. I know some bad Christians. This is not a big trend. But this is the typical response of atheists. This has nothing to do with the central thesis. <br /><br />The central thesis is that there is a moral condition that humans possess naturally and inherently, be they theist or atheist. The fact that atheists may possess morality without any connection to god supports this understanding. The source of that moral condition transcends any explanations derived from naturalism or materialism or eliminativism. Why these philosophies? They are the typical philosophies that atheists proffer in lieu of theism as the way to interpret reality. <br /><br />Within the materialist context, Darwinian natural selection is the shaping force behind human development. Yet there is no evidence (for Diehl who places high value on evidence) that natural selection is focused on individual or social morality. It is focused on survival of the individual so he/she can reproduce. Some have offered scenarios that seek to describe how natural selection might produce a deliberative, circumspect, rational consideration of ethical options in human behavior. But these are all presuppositional and stretch natural selection beyond what it can actually do (for Diehl who places a high value on evidence). <br /><br />Human consciousness is a huge problem for atheists (see Mind and Cosmos by Dr. Thomas Nagel, an atheist philosopher - evidence again). And morality is an advanced function within the boundaries of human consciousness. <br /><br />Another way of putting this is to observe that Bart Ehrman does not believe in god. But he believes that Jesus got it right when he emphasized love (refer to NPR interview of Ehrman). If materialism be true, how can Ehrman know what "right" is. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08487906691943831671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-61785572754049235832019-07-11T03:34:14.143-07:002019-07-11T03:34:14.143-07:00NEO, atheists "must" present (fool thems...NEO, atheists "must" present (fool themselves) themselves as having a moral code, they must strive to look better than christians. Do better works of charity, proclaim how much better their world view is. They love the loonies who call themselves christian because that's free ammunition in their arsenal.<br /><br />Forget the fact that if there were no religious (any religion) codes in the world there'd be no moral code. Survival of the fittest, law of the jungle, might is right, pecking order, etc. ect.<br /><br />The unprovable idea that a society demands a moral code with or without religion must consider the possibility of whether a society could ever come to exist in a survival of the fittest, law of the jungle, atmosphere. I highly doubt it.<br /><br />I don't need to hear about all the wars fought in the name of religion, or all the atrocities that have occurred in the name of religion since it hasn't been proven whether those occur because of religion or simply because of human nature. That view holds as much water as another atheist claim that if you're raised in a christian society then you'll become christian.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-51885265049308399512019-07-11T01:47:23.189-07:002019-07-11T01:47:23.189-07:00I ride a horse! Of course, it’s a steel one, but...I ride a horse! Of course, it’s a steel one, but at least it doesn’t crap all over the place.<br /><br />BBByker Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15602697337552385535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-48172363707158048032019-07-10T22:37:32.488-07:002019-07-10T22:37:32.488-07:00I didn't read all the comments in depth.
Just...I didn't read all the comments in depth.<br /><br />Just too quick observations.<br />A) It has been rumored that "NEO's Class System culture" only entered wcg after its 1960 AC expansion to England.<br /><br />Most literature before that shows HWA to have been an extreme American "liberal democrat" in many regards, like the possibility of "starting a new separate church" or government articles or the regular church hymns next to the dwight hymnal.<br /><br />I guess the input off the british or the meredith leadership enforced stricter racial interpretation of us&b in prophecy then the broader hwa painti ng. HWA wrote with the (american) intention to embrace the "entire world", while great britains culture was aimed to "hold fast" to a crumbling collapsing empire. This last culture pervaded wcg. However not all wcg congregations were led by ac graduates or even liked a particular british worldview and embraced more of the american view straight from hwas writings. Regardless HWA was an "imperialist" albeit an american imperialist.<br /><br />B)<br />Now regarding morality. <br />NEO touches an important issue that is being researched for the sake of self learning algorythms or artificial intelligence.<br /><br />We will soon find out IF "THE ROBOTS" will enter a war of the worlds. OR wether the robots will learn through machine learning that it is no good to destroy the robots that make their spare parts. And develop some sort of morality that would be shocking to NEO. <br /><br />To have robots write articles in a magazine called Quest on "the innocent pigmee" all moral in the woods far from depraved city slickers.<br /><br />Perhaps rational deduction by the robots will find that man should be eliminated because they produce carbon gas.<br /><br />Perhaps AI cannot learn this on its own and make use of previous gathered data that is FULL of human bias.<br /><br />Perhaps man is full of Gods bias in its behavior. How do you expect a "being" to leave instructions for "man" , while the only data that was available to that being had to do with collapsing solar systems, black holes sucking in galaxies distances between multiple galaxies or dimensions.<br /><br />Perhaps the bible can be explained though through the prism that god had studied and observed the Neanderthal love life, mating and meal time discussions for a million years.<br /><br />.........After studying the data carefully he must have decided somewhere along the road to create Cindy Crawford or Brigitte Bardot.<br /><br />I love self learning algorythms. And the underlying moral bias of their decisions.<br /><br />THE AGE OLD QUESTION IN THE END IS. WHAT WILL TOUR TESLA DECIDE IN A QUICK SECOND. DRIVE OVER THE TODDLER OR SLAM YOU INTO THE WALL AND SPEED UP IN THE PROCESS.<br /><br />What your Tesla has learned through accessing your data WILL decide your live. :-):-)<br /><br />Perhaps NEO might choose to ride horse in the future.<br /><br />Nck<br />nckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14580008070423402328noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-20990251506217515002019-07-10T22:00:30.735-07:002019-07-10T22:00:30.735-07:00I have to chuckle over the assertion that atheists...<br />I have to chuckle over the assertion that atheists have no morals when I see the total lack of morals and natural human compassion in so many of the religious. The "Bible Belt" reeks of it. It's the reason we have a criminal president and much of congress is a gangland cesspool. Religious people put them all where they are and blindly support them because their morality is too often a baseless façade of hypocrisy.Al Dexternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-34786900130336131972019-07-10T19:00:07.067-07:002019-07-10T19:00:07.067-07:00NEO
There are atheists who are moral, and many are...NEO<br />There are atheists who are moral, and many are more moral than so called Christians. Their line of reasoning is that the purpose of a moral code is the preservation of life and the achievement of success. It's the same reason Christ gave for healing on the Sabbath. Some of these atheistic philosophies have a far superior map of reality than Christian denominations. This is because today's Protestant Christianity is riddled with commie social justice. This isn't obvious to most church going Christians since it's papered over with bible verses and blends in with todays socialist western culture. <br />Which is why today's Christianity is silent on rights, assertiveness, self interest and profit. Not only are they silent on these concepts, but they constantly make snipping attacks on these. For instance, constant rants against "selfish ambition." Where is legitimate ambition? Isn't seeking the kingdom and the best eternal reward possible, ambition?? What we have today is Comrad Christianity, with only some atheists seeing through the deception.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-76561524085781385702019-07-10T16:41:39.966-07:002019-07-10T16:41:39.966-07:00"In essence, their personal fellowship with t..."In essence, their personal fellowship with the Lord has been abdicated for a relationship with a man." --- Isn't this true of all religion? Isn't all religion a matter of some people informing other people of the intentions and preferences of the Almighty? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-41015827890546006122019-07-10T15:55:49.237-07:002019-07-10T15:55:49.237-07:00It is my understanding that Paul wrote in Romans t...It is my understanding that Paul wrote in Romans that everyone knows that there is a God (though they don't want to acknowledge it) and they all have the law of God written in their hearts. Ethicists call this natural law. This explains how most major religions and cultures seem to have many of the same moral values and laws. My understanding is that God wants all to be saved, though not everyone will be. If someone acknowledges that there is a God and as an act of faith follows the laws written in his heart, he is saved. He's not saved by knowledge or by doing works, but it is the faith that motivates the works that is key. In Developmental Psychology it is said that 70% of the conceptions never make it to a live birth. Many who are born die in infancy and childhood. Some have intellectual disabilities or mental illness. Some never heard of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob or heard the Gospel or the name of Jesus. How could any of them be saved? I think that they only people who are lost are those who knowingly and willfully reject the light that they have. Others can be saved based on how they respond to the light that they have. After all, are we not told that we are saved by grace through faith, not of works, or knowledge (as the Gnostics taught). God the father would not send his son to be a part of a very exclusivist plan of salvation where only a small percentage of people had the chance to be saved. To do so would give Satan a huge victory. When I was a staff officer in the Army the commander might tell us what his intentions were. Then, under the direction of the Chief of Staff the staff officer would put together some courses of action for the commander to consider. He then picks one and the staff goes off to work out the details. Imagine if God told His angels that he wants a plan of salvation put together where most people could be saved. The angels returned a few weeks later and present one proposal that the only people who could be saved are those who survived to adulthood, heard the Gospel, were members of a particular church, who obeyed all the laws, submitted to the leadership, etc. God then might ask, "What market share would be get with this proposal?" "About four percent" comes the answer. God them might ask, "Do you expect me to send my Son to die for a single digit market share? Didn't I tell you that I would like to see all people saved?" Who has another options for me to consider? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-43911625384173781192019-07-10T14:36:25.418-07:002019-07-10T14:36:25.418-07:00@12:57p - makes me wonder how Ritenbaugh made blin...@12:57p - makes me wonder how Ritenbaugh made blind people feel. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-41862720016038604222019-07-10T13:46:25.195-07:002019-07-10T13:46:25.195-07:00I do believe atheists may have a moral code. Anyo...I do believe atheists may have a moral code. Anyone may adopt a moral code. All without the benefit of god. That is not the issue. The issue centers on why atheists would want to do that or even be able to do that - as if it were some built-in capability. <br /><br />Atheists should actually be amoral, if they are good atheists. Adopting a moral position is alien to their ideals philosophically. Mechanistic materialism admits of no classes of behavior that have moral content. Molecules are amoral. It is somewhat like asking if a robot can be moral. Yes, a robot can be moral if some moral person programs it to be - like Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics. Anything that an atheist decides is a moral principle has etiology as a brain fart according to the materialist view. Not an impressive credential. <br /><br />And when atheists adopt a morality, they adopt the same morality, a kind of natural pragmatic law, that is recognized by most of humanity - don't steal, don't kill, in short, treat others well. Theoretically, atheists have some semblance of free will and can choose whatever behaviors they want to follow from the unlimited possibilities that mechanistic materialism affords them but oddly they do not make that choice. This could go on. The rest of it is in Book One of Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08487906691943831671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-46392219014815016642019-07-10T13:40:40.424-07:002019-07-10T13:40:40.424-07:00Is there a single author on this site who is not e...Is there a single author on this site who is not either an open atheist or a closet atheist? <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-7530129373237632142019-07-10T12:57:36.364-07:002019-07-10T12:57:36.364-07:00I recall John Ritenbaugh telling me, when I was we...<i>I recall John Ritenbaugh telling me, when I was wearing sunglasses playing ball in charlotte when pastoring that sunglasses were not to be worn because "the eye is the light to the body" and it blocked light.</i><br /><br />...at which point, had I been in your place, I would have spent the next evening looking through old church publications for a photo of GTA on a hunting or fishing expedition, wearing... sunglasses! "John, are you in rebellion against HQ, or do you just have a Pharisaic stick up your butt?"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-60089777769270433762019-07-10T12:48:34.637-07:002019-07-10T12:48:34.637-07:00What I mean NEO is that your observations were not...What I mean NEO is that your observations were not my personal experiences nor my way of thinking as the person I am. That is reflected in growing up in a very balanced home and religious atmosphere before coming to AC/WCG. I know the caste stuff was how some others viewed them selves and I have many examples of minister acquaintances that I could not relate to or agree with in their way of doing and being with their church and members. <br /><br />I recall John Ritenbaugh telling me, when I was wearing sunglasses playing ball in charlotte when pastoring that sunglasses were not to be worn because "the eye is the light to the body" and it blocked light. Stupid beyond measure I know but you have to know I chuckled and of course thought that was not exactly a topic for ministerial opinion to inflict on others. But then this is a guy who gave 30+ consecutive sermons on HOW to keep the Sabbath so you can see anality was his way evidently. <br /><br />The simple line between pastoring to encourage, teach and shepherd whatever that might mean and "mind your own business" was not one anyone took time to educate minister on to my knowledge. My mind my own business was rather liberal and and "what do you think you should do?" an oft asked question on my part to members in my care. You know, whatever is not of faith is sin too...DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-71233293410746280162019-07-10T12:21:26.817-07:002019-07-10T12:21:26.817-07:00Jim-AZ Getting settled really well and thanks for...Jim-AZ Getting settled really well and thanks for asking Jim. Stopped in LA for a bit of business and then lunch with Gary (this Blog owner) and Gerald Bronkar. A great time was had by all. We did wonder what would be said if we all died in the car! lol Then on to Meteor Crater where I was able to sit through sunrise over the crater with not a living soul around. Impressive and amazing place. Then the dash to SC. Start up work again this coming Sunday full time and hopefully can work out receiving the higher of mine vs my former wife who passed away at the end of the last year. Back with ___________ again after a decade and we both are in therapeutic massage so occasionally can work together when I am not at the clinic etc. More content than ever and at peace.<br /><br />NEO I get more than you think I do. Sorry I can't explain it all to your satisfaction. I don't agree with some of your generalizations but that is endless with all of us on Banned. I have explained my personal views in ministry enough. I was not indoctrinated by AC. I simply ignored the people who acted as if they didn't know what being a genuine pastor and helper of their supposed WCG joy was. <br /><br />The idea that those who don't believe in morality or have no basis for it without a god is pure bullshit but a predictable apologetic from the religious. Perhaps they might go morally nuts but no one I know as atheists do that ever. They might not abide by the should nots and must nots of religion but they are fine moral people without being commanded to be so. Tis a big topic but the concept, while oft thrown at atheists, is bogus.<br /><br />For some, the fear of punishment or reward from the Deity may be what they need to keep on a straight and narrow path, but that seems more a function of their own inner values than or lack of them. I also don't find the average normal functioning human being to be deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know them nor do I find my atheist friends full of vanity, jealousy, lust and greed because they don't have the threat of "or else" hanging over them. DennisCDiehlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10417850852638492246noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-226103369043606765.post-27721746316727090202019-07-10T09:23:25.606-07:002019-07-10T09:23:25.606-07:00Dennis good post.
Hope you are getting settled in ...Dennis good post.<br />Hope you are getting settled in SC. Give us an update on SC. All the best to you.<br />Jim-AZAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com