UCG Troubles Expected To Extend Into Summer 2011

The blog The Shining Light has another post today concerning the current upheavals going on in UCG.  They are predicting that this 'crisis' will continue on until next summer (2011) where a significant number of Elders will have left UCG.

While I am sure some of these men are sincere in their thinking, you have to wonder when it is going to sink into their minds to actually start questioning their entire belief system instead of the politics in UCG.

When your entire faith system is based entirely upon the six month study of a man who was not happy with his wife's new found beliefs and a nightmare she had, something is desperately WRONG!.  Six months. Six months of study in a public library!  Public libraries, then as now, were/are not know for carrying highly intellectual books that really get into the meatier matters of a subject.

Libraries are stocked with books that the general public can read and hopefully understand. Usually with the education of a high school mind or less. That is why libraries are filled with so much fiction.

Libraries at the time of HWA's so-called, super intensive, 'all-encompassing', candle burning study, would still have been stocked with books from the late 1800's.
 
Public libraries at HWA's time were NOT filled with books on eschatology, hermeneutics, and otherwise deep theology.

The mindset of the library reader at that time was revivalist in nature.  Revivalism in the United States at that time dealt with charismatic preachers, emotionalism, altar calls and spur of the moment 'signs of the spirit.'  These people were not book readers. Many were still struggling with day to day life trying to recover from the Great Depression. Ultimately HWA knew that and tapped into the emotionalism of radio to tug at peoples emotions and feelings of wanting to feel special.

If you had been in Pasadena and checked out the 'college' library  you would have seen countless books from the late 1800's through the 1940's.  Ambassador's library was NOT up to date.  When they started the process of accreditation one of the stipulations was getting current and up to update with the books in the library.  You would have found countless anti-catholic books, books on pyramidology by Piazzi Smith, James Rutherford, W.M. Flinders Petri, and others. Lots of books on the JW's, SDA's and the Mormon's. Lots of things on Germany, Hitler, and WWII, extensive Judaism books and more.

How many more decades need to go by before UCG/COG ministers and church leaders stop living in the past.  When will they start using real books for bible study and research or open their minds to current archeology and Biblical studies, and stop relying on HWA?

UCG's so-called 'college', Meredith's so-called 'college' and Flurry's non-college 'college' all uses HWA writings as their standard of belief and formation.  Their standard form of understanding is God's pure language of the King James Bible and HWA's writings pre-1986. You will not find the myriads of books and opinions that a seminary would have in it's library (both pro and con).

A thinking person cannot get a 'rounded' education unless you understand why there are other ways at looking at scripture, theology, and beliefs.  A well educated seminary student looks at these different ways of study and mulls them over.  It does not mean they have to agree with them, but it does open their mind up to explore their own faith, but more importantly it gives them a basis to understand why people think and believe the way they do.

Armstrongism does not do that.  The most they do is read books like Hislop's The Two Babylon's, and any book that is anti-Roman Catholic.  That is as far as their mindset allows them to go.

COG's and HWA loved to mock Roman Catholics and the Orthodox for their supposed idolatry.  What utter hypocrisy!  Look at how COG's cannot carry on a conversation without mentioning HWA or his writings.

Look at the filth rising in Edmond, OK that blatantly worships all things HWA.  Flurry's Herbert W Armstrong College is the ultimate in idolatry! Even Roman Catholics don't worship the Pope this much!

They have what they stupidly believe is HWA's prayer rock that they traipsed through the Oregon woods, dug up and hauled back to Edmond.  There are pictures of Flurry kneeling beside it in reverence.

They bought articles from the Auditorium and furnishings from Pasadena, for their new House of Idolatry.

They pose their pictures, design their TV studio backdrops, books and booklets to look like HWA's version.

They eat the same kinds of foods, drink the same wines and champagne.

They imitate HWA right down to the type of suits, underwear and soap (Roger & Gallet) HWA used!  Pathetic imbeciles!

Well, enough of that rant!  :-)

I do not feel sorry for the current UCG administrations troubles. They brought it on themselves.  They are a group of conniving, greedy men who care only for themselves.  I saw them in action in Pasadena and know for a fact that they are still of the same mindset.  The stories of abuse of members in their congregations make the rounds regularly.

 Shining Light's comments:

It can also be understood that the CoE will not be sad to see dissenting Elders go.  Every one that leaves means a stronger control for themselves.  Every dissenting Elder that leaves is a step closer to the 75% needed to officially change doctrine and discard the cloak of “clarification”.  Every dissenting Elder that leaves means a better chance of reelection for the CoE liberals.  They are in control now and they want to remain in control.

Many of the laity can be expected to follow their Elders in whatever they decide to do.  If an Elder leaves, many of his congregants will follow him.  If a more liberal Elder supports the CoE, many of his congregants will follow along.  The people have been taught to follow the Elder without thinking.
This is a very sad state of affairs, but it is a reality.  We should all be following God and his Word; and following men only as they follow Christ.

That said, there will be a few in each congregation who will not want to play “follow the Elder” and will decide to leave their local Elder; either to remain loyal to the Council, or to register their objections.   This means that both; a sifting of the Elders, and a sifting of the people must come.  That may take some time and may last through to sometime next summer.

We can be sure that the Council has not been wasting their time and that a number of “replacement” Elders are waiting to be sent out to congregations as Elders object to events and leave.  The recent Larry Salyer situation should be a lesson; when an Elder is believed to be unrealiable, he will be removed and a replacement will be waiting to take over.

These replacements will have been handpicked for their liberal leanings and their support of the Council.  The CoE will not allow an Elder to leave and take his flock with him, without a fight.  This is part of what Denny meant by a “Fiery Trial”.  It will be a fight for the people and their financial support.
This is not going to be pretty.

Dennis Luker Says UCG Is "...About to Go Through a Fiery Trial" (Luker Video Added)

The Shining Light blog is reporting that Dennis Luker gave a sermon this past weekend that will most likely be sent out to all UCG churches to be played for the membership.  It looks like the situation in South American has really come back to bite the UCG hierarchy in the butt big time!  There is  an immense backlash about the shenanigans that went on with that situation, with the Salyer episode and other disgruntled ministers. Rocky times are ahead for UCG.

The tape subject was “Fiery Trials”  and it was stated the the UCG/AIC was going through or about to go through a “Fiery Trial”.

It is very important to understand that the only fiery trial, is one being placed on United by the Council of Elders.  All that is needed to prevent such a trial, is for the CoE to confirm and support the previous long standing policy on working or paying others to work on Sabbath; and to begin an honest and sincere effort at reconciliation with the offended Latin American brethren. 

What is so very difficult about that?  In short, all they really need to do to prevent a fiery trial, is to maintain the doctrinal status quo; and reach out to those they have offended in true Godly concern.

So why is Dennis warning of a fiery trial?  Is it because the Council has no intention of maintaining the long standing doctrinal position of United?  Is it because the liberal faction is irrevocably commited to changing the present teaching in favour of the Roig family position?
Why is United’s Council of Elders and President FORCING such a fiery trial on United?

Shining Light also had this to say about Luker:

At one point Dennis says that he is a hard tough man who will do whatever it takes.  He then tried to go on and say;” in love of course”: yet his statement and body language was certainly belligerent and defiant against any possible questioning of his position.

  
This seems to have become a matter of personal pride with the liberals; who seem to be willing to fracture United rather than back off their agenda.
This tape was a rather obvious attempt to intimidate  the elders and people before the important decision come up.

It looks like UCG is starting to go through the same issues that their Mother Church went through.  Those pesky liberals are at it again!




To hear the message yourself check it out.  NOTE:  This is NOT an endorsement of UCG!

Larry Salyer Suspended and "De-credentialed By UCG Honcho's for "Unacceptable Conduct by a Minister"

One has to wonder now which COG Salyer will join next. He has been in so many already. Gotta keep that free money rolling in!  God forbid if he got a real job!

Dear fellow ministers and employees,

We are sad to inform you that we have relieved Larry Salyer of his ministerial duties. He was suspended after he held meetings in the congregations he pastors after services in which he openly criticized the leadership of the Church. This is unacceptable conduct by a minister and the action is what has always been taken against anyone who openly speaks to our brethren in such a manner.

Roy Holladay, regional pastor, was sent to Texarkana, Texas and Ruston, Louisiana to speak to the congregations and let the brethren know of Larry Salyer?s suspension. Roy Holladay mistakenly announced, though, that Larry Salyer?s ministerial credentials were removed. While Ministerial Services can relieve someone of their duties, it is only the Council of Elders that can remove credentials. Roy realized he made a mistake in wording and apologized to Larry Salyer. He also contacted the elders in both congregations and asked them to notify the brethren of this error.

We have wanted to keep this personnel matter just between the parties involved, but write to you because news of this has spread through the Internet. Larry Salyer wrote an open letter that he encouraged be freely shared with all. Because of this we are letting you know the basic facts of this unfortunate situation.

Victor Kubik

Ministerial Services

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Larry Salyer’s Letter

Hello Fellow Elders, (oops! maybe not)

In the midst of great confusion in the United Church of God and especially in the small congregations of Texarkana, Texas and Ruston, Louisiana, it seems appropriate to share the latest events of which I am a witness and a participant. Let me give you a little history before you try to make sense of the message copied below.

On Sabbath, October 9, I chose to bring the brethren up to date on what is going on in the Church. Actually, I had committed to them before the Feast that I would discuss the latest information coming out of the Home Office when we got home from the Feast. (I was only able to be with them on Atonement after the papers came out, due to medical issues with Judy).

The format was the same in each area. First, we had a regular service in which I gave a sermon on the role of shepherds in God’s flock, both in Israel and in the Church. I also explaied how shepherds must deal with “wolves” or lions or bears as David did (I Samuel 17:34-37 are instructive here). After the closing prayer, I invited anyone who wanted to stay for a briefing on the papers and events in the Church. Virtually all stayed. I gave a brief overview of the past several months of conflict and friction in the Church. I then summarized the errors in the two papers and stated unequivocally that they were wrong. I cautioned the brethren to be very alert to any doctrinal drift and not just assume everything that comes out is legitimate. I explained the failure of the unknown authors of these papers to pass them by the doctrine committee. In closing, I mentioned that my saying these things openly, as a shepherd must according to Scripture, would not be well received at the Home Office and that if I were not here next Sabbath they could guess why.

On Thursday evening I returned home to find a message from Denny and Vic asking me to call. When I returned the call Friday morning, I got Denny only. Just let me add that during that phone call Denny said, (very nearly verbatim quote here) “Larry, you have put me in an awkward position. I have to suspend you from ministerial duties until you have talked with Roy Holladay. Roy will come back and write up a report.” He indicated that after that it would be determined what comes next.

For the record I will add here, that I said to Denny ( a long time friend and fellow evangelist in WCG), “Denny, you said I had put you in an awkward position. Let me state here, as one evangelist to another, that I believe you and Roy and others have put me in an awkward position. As a shepherd, I have a responsibility to my flock to help them discern truth and error.”

At that point Denny expressed again that he would have to suspend me until I had talked to Roy. The rest is below.

This information is free to be shared if you think it will be helpful to anyone. I have a limited number of private addresses and do not want to use corporate email. Please see message below from me to Council, President and MS team.

Larry Salyer, October 17, 2010


Following is the email from Salyer on how UCG Honcho's were ticked that he disagreed with the 'Sabbath and Fasting' papers.

Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 2:11 AM

To: dennis_luker; melvin_rhodes; bill_eddington; aaron_dean; darris_mcneely; jim_franks; scott_ashley; david_baker; robin_webber; mike_blackwell; david_treybig; bob_berendt; mario_seiglie

Cc: roy_holladay; victor_kubik; gary_anition

Subject: De-credentialing process

Hello,

The phone call this evening caught me completely by surprise for a couple of reasons. First, as I am familiar with the process for approving or removing elder credentials, it seems unlikely to me that such a process could have been followed within the past week, the ostensible reason for such action being statements I made to my congregations last Sabbath. Further, nothing has yet been communicated to me about my credentials as an elder in UCG.

Second, in a phone conversation on Friday morning, President Denny Luker had asked me to confirm or deny accusations that I had addressed the congregations about the Sabbath and Fasting papers and said that I did not agree with them. I said I most certainly had and I believed it was my pastoral duty to the flock to do so. Denny immediately suspended me “from ministerial duties” He instructed me not to attend services on the Sabbath of October 16. He informed me that Roy Holladay would be coming to the area to speak in both churches. I asked him to review that prohibition as I thought it important to the congregation that I be there to hear what was said and to be able to follow up later if I were allowed to continue to pastor. Mr. Luker said he would seek counsel on that and call me back, which he did, saying it was unanimous among the MS team that I should not be at services. Mr. Luker in no way indicated that I was being removed, but repeated that I was being suspended. He said that he and Roy would like for me to meet with Roy and talk. I agreed to do so. He said he hoped I would not make a bunch of calls and stir up trouble. I assured him I would not.

On Friday, I sent an email to all three elders telling them that I would not be there, but that Mr. Holladay would take the sermons. I said nothing about suspension. I spoke to one other member by phone, who asked who would be speaking on the Sabbath. I mentioned that Roy Holladay would be there. Later Roy called me and asked if I could drive to Ruston to meet with him on Sunday morning. I agreed, as he had a long drive to Chattanooga ahead of him.

So what about the phone call? A member called me and gave me a summary of the service. He said that it was announced that my “credentials had been removed.” Incredulous, I said, you mean he said I was suspended. He said no, Mr. Holladay said your credentials had been removed. This was confirmed in another call a little later. Still, I did not believe it and so called the sound person who dubs the CDs. I was allowed to listen to that portion of the announcements (sermonette time) and sure enough Roy said, and repeated in response to a question, that my credentials had been removed and that I was no longer the pastor. Later, I received a call from the other congregation. I asked if the same announcement had been made. The answer was an unequivocal “Yes.”

A couple of questions: When did the COE meet and remove my credentials? If they did not, does the MS team or president now have that authority? If so how and when did they get it? Is it appropriate, prior to a planned meeting on Sunday morning to announce to the members on the Sabbath that my credentials have been removed? Did Roy know what he was talking about? Did he know before he made the appointment with me? Will MS and the Council posture that this was just another misstep? Will they try to retract it after the damage is done? Is somebody lying about the process, or making it up on the fly?

Finally, what is the value in driving 230 miles round trip to meet with a man who has come here in a professional capacity and conducted Church business in such an embarrassing manner?