At this moment, and perhaps it is a mistake to speak plainly because we all know we all must keep up appearances at all costs in our culture, but what the hell.A number of years ago, at a ministerial refresher, which were always exhausting, I asked Ron Kelly in class, if the church understood the need to provide retirement for the ministry. I quote the only answer ever given...
"We will take care of you....."
Ron Kelly
Thank you Ron, Yes you did.
Aside from suffering through yet another episode of losses relived, in many areas both public and personal, which has me deeply anxious today and depressed, I'd like to know where the good guy ministers went who simply disappeared when terminated along the way and never started, stole or hijacked a splinter or sliver Church of God to keep it going?
And there were many good guy ministers. Damn any of you who use the word "all" as if you knew them all. They just weren't the narcissists or pushy ones. Or maybe you never met them because they weren't yours. The nut cases have gone on and on and some are frankly mentally ill and doing just fine hiding in the context of religion. Their quirkiness and strange views look downright religious and obedient. I have learned an ill minister can hide well in a religious environment. Somehow they look very "Biblical." Actually some are and that is the scary part too.
Many meant well and got just as confused as I did along the way as I watched WCG go through one side show after another until it became the WishyWashyTrinityBSChurch of God.
So Ron, what do guys like myself do as we get older? Decades of doing what told, inspiring, sincerely at the time, the giving of millions and giving back tens of thousands to our harm as I never made all that much being out of the good ol' boy loop. I made $33,000 max. I bought homes thinking I could stay put and my parents made up differences along the way. Sorry mom...I know we don't tell what people make but this is different.
We signed, and I don't remember either being given an explanation or an option, away social security because a church can take care of it's own and can opt out. Big mistake huh? I was 22 and I had to sign that to get paid my first $164/2 week paycheck in the ministry. I believe HWA had just spent the entire pay of the ministry that week on Steuben Crystal in the name of "please like me and let me have my picture with you...." ministry.
On top of that, US Churches don't have to give retirements to ministers or at least it "depends." Mine depended on staying with WCG as outlined by Bernie Schnippert who claimed such understanding yet washed his hands of me rather quickly.
It was the head of the Church Reconciliation Dept, who has spend decades making a living reconciling with all the wrong people who told me....
"We will pray for you Dennis, and we wish you luck..."
Translation:
"Be warmed and be filled."
The personal dept at the time advised us/me to show the severance papers to a lawyer. I did. She said:
"This is a Church? You're F_ _ _ _ _"
(wanna see them?)
And so it still is today. I told Joe Tkach years ago it was not nice that the Church retirement program for the ministry was at age 65 or so to drive into a tree. He laughed. I bet he is still laughing...I'm not. Life is real. My dad retired from Eastman Kodak 33 years ago. Yes, he is 95. My parents still live in the same home they bought when 22 years old. Yes, mom's 94. I'll never make it. Too many moves. Too many losses. Too many "God will make it up to us." To many lost friends and opportunities being too busy being "God's minister." What Bullshit...
I grew up where we "didn't say that" when anger came up. So from a child, I have learned to pack it in. It leads to depression because either one feels they have no right to speak it, or the price of doing so will be too high. It has been both, in my Church Pastor experience. but what does it matter. I had to take anti-depressants the last ten years in WCG just to get through. I can't afford to do that now as I have no insurance in my current job. Not uncommon for Americans. I also don't believe in covering it all up. Dealing with is the cure. Facing it helps. But in the WCG the nice guys could do neither without being very quiet about it.
My own losses along the way, personal and otherwise have been very difficult. Some of it I understand and some of it will always be a mystery to me. I am sorry to those close to me for hurting you as I kept my rage and fear inside. I still do but you have gone away so it doesn't matter now.
Actually the Tkach's have done very well through it all. I rarely see anything about WCG and they are the ones who started all this religious foolishness. Joe is the Mubarak/Gaddafi of the WCG/GCI
Enjoy your Non-Feast of Tabernacles Cruises for Jesus Ron...you did good adapting your way through the changes in the deep and unchangeable truths. I also remember talking with you about retirement after termination and you said you wished you could but....ready for this.....
"Jesus had worked a great miracle in the Church and we don't have the money."
That crazy trickster Jesus. Call me/Trick me. Which is it? I also believe I reminded you that you had just sold the entire campus for a yet to be disclosed price. I bet it was over $500 wasn't it?
Oh...and you guys still don't have it right. Your miracle theology is hilarious and your new ministry is even less qualified to minister than ever.
Actually the Tkach's have done very well through it all. I rarely see anything about WCG and they are the ones who started all this religious foolishness. Joe is the Mubarak/Gaddafi of the WCG/GCI However he is Pastor General over nothing.
Breathe Dennis...it will pass....
"I made $33,000 max. I bought homes thinking I could stay put ..."
ReplyDeleteIn the 70's & 80's, Ministers of the very wealthy WCG did way better than the average middle class members. Also the ministers only really only "worked" half a day on Saturdays. I remember my affluent minster bragging about watching the TV network shows on cold mornings (watching the News for "prophecy" of course)(while the titheslaves went off to work). His family also had health club memberships. Also he had a luxury car & perks layed on (sweet) while I drove wrecks.
Because of their generous salary & perks plus trading up houses in the inflationary 70s & 80's sans capital gains tax, there was plenty of opportunity to build a nest egg. Many did quite well - but not as good as the WCG execs like Bernie who just happened to "retire" after Big secret Calif property sale !
The 70's &
To quote "Animal House", "You f@#ked up, you trusted us."
ReplyDeleteMakes you wonder if any of the Old Guard really believed/believes in gawd, or are they just as deluded as their sheeple?
It's interesting that most of the ministers left in either, whatever Pasadena is calling itself this week, or the splinters were the arrogant a-holes from the WCG.
I hesitated to have the blog owner print this. I was hoping it would not just be another excuse to tell wealthy bastard minister stories.
ReplyDeleteThe owner thought it was honest and worthwhile. We'll see. I am really having a difficult personal time and i know, who cares. It comes and goes. My "friend" depression has returned along with anxiety and I realize this is my problem and the way I can or can't seem to process some experiences. It's been a difficult couple of years. I'm exhausted mentally.
I have been ill all day and still am recounting losses that I never would have imagined I'd have to deal with.
Actually, I don't know why I wrote this, nor why it may help to print it...we'll see. dcd
It is aggravating that the rank and file loyal believing minister doing his best, was overworked and underpaid, and after it was all done, was left with nothing. A few at the top came out OK -- particularly the cultists who went off to the UCG, now making ~$100,000 per year. You should note that United is looking seriously for an all volunteer ministry -- except for those who run things at the "Home Office" -- who get the gravy.
ReplyDeleteHerbert Armstrong made statements in the late 1970s and early 1980s how well paid those employed by Ambassador College were. The truth is, many were below the poverty level line and paid close to minimum wage (or below, if you count the long hours of "dedication"). If AC had to compete in the workplace, instead of having sincere lacky members "doing the work" out of the goodness of their hearts for those with black hearts in the Hierarchy of the Monarchy, AC wouldn't have anyone at all at those wages.
This all boils down to British Israelism: Herbert Armstrong built his empire on the framework of the mid 19th Century British Empire Corporations. It was what he knew. Those Corporations built the British Empire on the backs of the commoners, while the Lords and Ladies, Dukes and Dutchesess, Princes and Princesses and King and Queen, ruled as absolute in the glorious Kingdom.
At this point, a joke as told in the TV Series, Sliders, comes to mind: "Do you know why the sun never sets on the British Empire? It's because God can't trust the British in the dark!".
And so it is with the Armstrongist Empire: The sun never sets on it either, because God can't trust the Armstrongist Churches of God in the dark. But then, neither can we.
Anyway, you can't really fret about being underpaid, Dennis: You were doing the very Work of God for the End Time Apostle, who was going to lead us into the Kingdom. The WCG was going to take care of you. Moreover, the premise was that you would never have to retire, because you would be doing the work, right up to the end.
And it came to pass in those days, that the truth exposed the lies. Many were put out (in more than one sense of the word). Many were disappointed in the broken promises. Many went without and lived as best they could in near and below poverty level.
But from the point of view of the CEO and executives bearing the Divine Right of Kings, and the more modern version, Executive Privilege, all happened as it should: The rich and powerful got the goods and the good life. My life time of contributions probably couldn't have paid for the crystal goblets, the Stuben Crystal and the table top settings. Moreover, I doubt that my life time contributions could not cover one of Herbert's jet trips at over 40,000 feet for his around the world photo opportunity. I wouldn't have come close paying for the broadcast studio.
But the CEO, the Board and the Vice Presidents and leads sure made hay while the sun shone, while the rest of us lived where the sun don't shine. That is all that is important: That the important (humble) servants of God could live high on the hog. The rest of us were all collateral damage, especially the fatherless and widow, who, according to my sources, could get no more than $300 per month (who could live on that?), while the rest of the "third tithe" poured out behind the jet of the high flying ministry and their prostitute flight attendants.
Uh!
Now I'm depressed.
It really is doing good, Dennis!
ReplyDeleteYou'll see!
You have to wait until mid April, but it's coming, so take heart.
Your posting is timely and useful.
And for that, we thank you.
Thanks Douglas. I've been really sick today with stomach ache due to my emotions out of whack. I have stuggled quietly with depression, whatever the hell it is, for years and it didn't stop when my career changed. I don't wish to take anything as many don't and I can't afford the go around.
ReplyDeletePersonal losses as I perceive them have been rough ones. So here i sit alone. Making a fool out of myself. I guess brain chemistry can do that.
I don't trust anyone anymore for many reasons and I don't like that. I'll just let the comments run their course and stay out of it. Maybe tomorrow will be a better day. dcd
I for one appreciate all that you write, Dennis. You make sense in the senseless religious world of which we were all a part.
ReplyDeleteMost young people cannot foresee the possibility of unanticipated events that can derail a contractual agreement. We all thought God's work and church would endure forever, guided by exemplary ethical standards.
ReplyDeleteThere is a long trail of dead and injured bodies discarded in the aftermath of the WCG’s insatiable pursuit of money and power. On so many levels, the WCG was on par with the most corrupt corporations and governments in the world. Is it any wonder that God, if he does exist, spewed this evil church out of his mouth and dashed it in a zillion pieces?
I am praying for you, Dennis.
Thank you , I grew up Presbyterian and with the aid of some personal family circumstances, felt I just had to know the truth about it all. I was a weird kid. But a sincere weird kid. Got impressed by WCG at 14 and never looked back.
ReplyDeleteThe whole experience has made me very determined to learn now what I wish I had known then. I can't change the history, but I can change the understanding of it. I am very skeptical as you can tell. I guess I write to be helpful and hope it is.
I have made mistakes along the way
We're all here to learn. However my next question would be "learn what and why?" :) DCD
Dennis:
ReplyDeleteYou are not making a fool out of yourself. You are the only honest ex-COG pastor out there that speaks out. I am sure you were a good pastor to your congregation and that many benefited fro your willingness to 'defy the rules' of the corporate COG. Your writings have said so many things I have been unable to say. My hat is off to you.
Dennis:
ReplyDeleteCertainly not making a fool of yourself. I don't agree with everything you write (would like to see the opposite POV too), but I greatly respect your search and your openness in forums like this.
One of the things that has really pissed me off about the whole WCG transformation is the lack of clarity by the whole "management team". Chief among them being Joe the Deuce, not only because of his status as PG for Life, but because he took the trouble to write about the changes. Where is the description of the night sweats suffered by Tkach pere et fil as they began to recognize that all that they had been teaching was a damnable lie? Not a peep about that, just a lot of truck about how God was working in the church.
Yeah, sure.
I've been told by those that know Joe the Deuce well that he doesn't like to talk about himself, and it's hard for him to write about how the changes affected him personally. Well, hells bells!! Grow a couple, joey boy, and for once give people what they need to hear. They need some honesty from you much more than another festival cruise celebrating grace.
What Joey is afraid to confront you put out here on a regular basis. What other former and/or current ministers are afraid to discuss you address often - and it means a lot to many of us. Ministers aren't marble statues, unaffected by what goes on around them, yet many feel they need to be just that, as if any show of humanity would cost them their credibility. Well, we all know they are human too, and recent events in UCG have shown that they can still behave as stupid asses.
Some years back someone tried to comfort me at a low time in my life by telling a story of woe that made my circumstances seem light in comparison. As that really didn't help, I will spare you the same treatment, but do wish you a "George Bailey" moment. It's nice to know that we've been of benefit to others.
VonHowitzer
Hi Dennis
ReplyDeleteYour comments moved me very much. I have appreciated your writing and thoughts for a long time and have thought of commenting before this but tend to hold back.
I served a 30 year stretch with the org, ended as an LCE then I got thrown out - was very angry for a while but over time worked through it all. You (and some few others)helped me in this more than I can possibly express.
I agree totally that there were good ministers and not all was bad, but I have also seen some discraceful things done over the years here in Australia, and those who did then have done very well for themselves.
I'd like to say money isn't everything!!, but it wouldn't be much help, so can I just say thanks for helping me - hang in there mate.
Working in the health profession can be
ReplyDeletepersonally a personally gratifying healing experience. But can your joints hold up much longer? Your greatest gift is in the cranium, Dennis.
Your internet ministry has been a great help to me, and many others.
Your parents must have good genes.:)
ReplyDeleteTo what do you attribute their longevity?
My parents longevity is attributed to:
ReplyDelete1. Living in the same neighborhood they grew up in. Moms home is still across the street from theirs now and dads is still three streets away
2. Dad worked for one company, never transferred, never moved, made more and more and retired
3. Paid of their house in the 1960's and the best years were yet ahead
4. Quite smoking in the 70's when came in to WCG. Dad was an LCE
5. Good genes. We are Dutch and if you ain't Dutch , you ain't much :)
6. Mom is youngest of three. Her bro died last year at 98 and her sister is 97. She's the baby
7. Dad is very easy going and much of what I struggle with. I am more like my mom who keeps its all in and you never let them see you sweat.
8. They volunteered for American Red Cross for years and started the American Assoc for Retarded Children to help parents cope with handicapped children and children rights. My brother is blind, deaf and can't talk.
9 They went back to their old church up the street where we all grew up.
10.Never did a days exercise and are rather detached from news and events.
DCD
"Working in the health profession can be
ReplyDeletepersonally a personally gratifying healing experience. But can your joints hold up much longer? Your greatest gift is in the cranium"
Massage gets to my back and legs a bit. I am cautious as I can be. I teach it at Virginia College part time at least, Work at a day spa at times and have my own buy don't rent in Chiro office anymore. Just too expensive.
Cranium is just fine and have heard, "you think too much" all my life. Have almost 300,000 downloads on my articles but no one pays for free stuff..ha. I did get a letter from the Messiah last week, so that was nice.
The WCG has a particular talent for breaking up families, marriages, friendships, and every other aspect of people's lives.
ReplyDeleteI have wondered what impact the WCG has had on your own family, and whether you were yet another casualty in the WCG's long history of tearing families apart. If not directly, most likely indirectly.
"I have wondered what impact the WCG has had on your own family, and whether you were yet another casualty..."
ReplyDeleteI live alone now. I have been divorced for 11 years and I suppose have to say it was my fault. Long personal story. I did not handle the stress and all I was knowing and keeping inside to my hard well.
I have two good men as sons. They have had their trials through it all. The moving took it's toll. Four grand kids I see occasionally and are beautiful children.
Have had a couple of relationships come and go. Not the life I would have expected and I don't do alone very well but have to learn that my happiness or contentment can't depend on others. I have done that to my harm. I am a giving kind of person and tend to let my heart go quickly if the person seems to halfway understand what I'm saying.ha. Rare!
To be honest, I have had times so low I have had to be careful about wanting to even bother continuing. So I studied it out and am aware of my chemistry.
I have had enough counseling along the way to know my type of self pretty well. If I had to guess, I have a touch of a personality disorder that I read about as "possible" in my past but the Doc never bothered to explain it. So I looked it up and that can also be a mistake. So I am aware of it and its symptoms, most of which I seem to have. Not happy about it , nor use it as an excuse. seems to only have awareness as the way to go. There is no "cure" and working on cognitive distortions seems to be the trick. Not easy. Go figure.
Did I always have that, or did I get it as a bonus from WCG and walking the tightrope? Dunno
DCD
PS It has always helped me to talk things through. Keeping them in has it's own course that it runs and doesn't work. Sometimes it costs me to talk but mostly it is therapeutic.
ReplyDeletePerhaps somewhere out there is a talented, patient live and live hollistic, vegan, buddhist goddess who can put up with me..ha.
In the late 80's when my minister would enjoy leisurely mornings sipping coffee watching Good Morning America, "dissident" literature was beginning to circulate amongst the "troops".
ReplyDeleteThere were 'Ambassador Reports'(AR), booklets by Ernest Martin, Robert Brinsmead etc. It was easy to see these were indeed the "Last Days" - not for planet earth, but for the brutal Tkach dictatorship.
By 1990 another recession had came along and I was unemployed, so I thought I would try a "tithe strike" (AR had always said that a general tithe-strike would be the quickest way to topple Tkach)
Needless to say, the end of the wealth-confiscation dictatorship - as we knew it - was only a few short years away.
Why didn't the ministers see this coming? I suspect they were addicted to the generous salaries and perks (for hardly working) and they GAMBLED that this would continue (when they should have long departed and established a real career and retirement plan including payment into Social Security for at least a decade or so.