If Charlton Heston had never went up that mountain we would not have all the Sabbath keeping controversies today!
Armstrongism is continuing to lose members because they realize sabbath keeping is not required of Christians. Seventh Day Adventists are leaving too. In 2005 the SDA church announced that 1.5 million SDA's have left the church in the last five years. Part of the reason why is the same phenomenon that is decimating Armstrongism: "The Internet has made information accessible to people worldwide who are seeking for the answers to their questions about Adventism."
There are numerous web sites out there that have a wealth of information for those who are questioning sabbatarianism.
Kerry Wynne is a former third generation Seventh-day Adventist. William Hohmann is a former Worldwide Church of God member. The Sabbath “heritage” of both authors goes back to one, single group of believers which adopted Sabbatarianism almost immediately after the Great Disappointment of 1844. Thus, these denominations are truly “sister” churches. Both authors graduated from the universities which host(ed) the theological seminaries of their respective denominations. The authors have worked in association with biblical researcher, Robert K. Sanders, a former Seventh-day Adventist who now hosts a comprehensive web-site which addresses issues in Adventism and Sabbatarianism—Truth Or Fables.Com.
Any group that tells you they have a biblical truth that no other christian faith has, is selling you something.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, any group that tries to pull you away from the "false truth" into "the real truth" is also selling something.
The eternal question in my mind is how I could have been deluded so long into accepting the Sabbath or anything else biblical.
ReplyDeleteAs I've pointed out before on The Painful Truth, I like millions of others was set up from birth.
It was a foregone conclusion in the society into which I was born that the Bible was the foundation of truth about a god that had always existed, which god created everything in seven literal days.
Totally false, but my mind was steeped in it.
If that creator god was real, then the Sabbath had to be real. It was a series of logical steps from that erroneus belief to fanatic adherence to Saturday sabbath.
How thankful I am to no longer be wedded to superstitious fear about offending some manufactured god if I do something I want to do in the 24 hours between Friday sunset and Saturday sunset.
Ah, glorious freedom.
I've used some of the materials from the Sabbath Keepers Refuted site in discussions with members of the Livingroom Churches of God on another forum. Even though two of the pro-sabbath participants in the historic three sabbath debates published on SKR actually bailed and refused to continue, the LRCOG types saw them as having won the debate, but withdrawing to protect their integrity. This shows how deeply the Armstrong and
ReplyDeleteAdventist movements have affected peoples' thinking and paradigms, in spite of the fact that the prophecy failures of both groups would raise serious credibility issues regarding all other aspects of their theology.
While the evidence at SKR (and available from other sources) seems quite conclusive to me, the hardcore types can and do find their way around it all, retaining their sabbath. Basically, all a Christian can do is to recall Paul's teachings regarding Christians of different beliefs getting along without offending one another or causing a brother or sister to damage their conscience. If people honestly believe that something is sin, then they should indeed avoid it.
BB
"If people honestly believe that something is sin, then they should indeed avoid it."
ReplyDeleteFor their mental and emotional stability, I have to agree.
The root of the tree is that it's all nonense to begin with, and their conscience is based on a false premise I pointed out above. The sooner people can get that through their heads the better.
I get a little impatient with arguing theology. Theology is the problem, and the farther one can get from it, the better off he or she will be.
Theology is a bore to me anymore.
So, you are saying that the Sabbath is a gateway drug?
ReplyDeleteI guess you could liken it to a gateway drug, along with British Israelism.
ReplyDeleteThere are many things that act like drugs on the human mind.
Alan, forget the Sabbath, forget British Israelism: The real gateway drug is "The True History of The True Church", replete with lies about Waldensians to establish a line of credibility for validation of viability using credentials which never existed.
ReplyDeleteI was sitting at a CoGWA Pentecost service in the afternoon (I did not want to be there, big time), listening to the Regional Pastor from Florida say that he was descended from the Waldensians and "it isn't clear to what extent they kept the Sabbath". I nearly hurled. He lied. Of course he knew to what extent they kept the Sabbath. No extent. None. They considered themselves good Sunday keeping Roman Catholics.
The man was an utter liar. He knowingly practiced deception. And wait for it... as a supposed Sabbath keeper (they eat out at restaurants on the Sabbath -- go figure) he lied, setting a terrible example, acting in utter hypocrisy. I would say that it is time he started questioning Sabbath keeping, except, except... he'd lose his salary and retirement.
So there it is. The bottom line. They lie to you and then take your money.
I don't suppose that anyone has ever produced a graphic on just how tithes and offerings are typically distributed, so I did and you can see the tithing / offering distribution infographic here
Years ago when I started seeing that the things Armstrongism espoused were contradicted by the Bible I ran across the A. N. Dugger verses W. Curtis Porter debate of Sabbath verses Sunday worship.
ReplyDeleteI read through most of the transcript rooting for the Sabbath and Dugger who argued for Sabbath observancs.
Porter, a Church of Christ preacher argued for keeping Sunday.
As I read on it became obvious that Porter was winning the debate against Sabbath observance quite handily.
But the Church of God 7th Day always presented the debate as a hands down victory vindicating the Sabbath. This was the second of two debates.
The debate transcript is here if anyone would like to read it:
http://www.giveshare.org/churchhistory/dugger-porter/index.html
Douglas,
ReplyDelete"Of course he knew to what extent they kept the Sabbath. No extent."
I have several histories of the true or Sabbath keeping churches which includes the Waldesnians as Sabbath keepers and were declared anathema from the Catholic Church and thousands were burned at the stake for this heresy.
If you read Hosea, I believe in chapter 3, it clearly states that God sometimes takes away the sabbath and holydays. The holydays were originally based on the agricultural patterns of the Northern Hemisphere, and the history of Israel. They were centered on the temporary tabernacle, then on the temple in Jerusalem.
ReplyDeleteThe sabbath was also centered on sunset Friday to sunset Saturday, once again as it occurred in Jerusalem. The time zones intespersed throughout the world, including the International Date Line, were all added centuries later. In certain extreme northern territories, it is virtually impossible to observe a sunset to sunset Sabbath during parts of the year.
Like circumcision (and we know what Paul has to say about the application of this amongst us Gentiles), these things were given specifically to Israel and the Jews, as a national culture, to set them apart from their neighboring countries.
Christians today have spiritual fruits which set them apart from the world.
BB
Michael, I would be interested in the references. So far I have found none that were credible the support Waldensians as Sabbath Keepers.
ReplyDeletePerhaps someone can tell me just how many centuries the Israelites of the Old Testament did NOT keep the Sabbath and the Holydays: From what I've read, it was something like 200 to 300 years at a time or more, as the scrolls of the Law were lost in junk in the back of the temple.
ReplyDeleteFrom my months attending SDA, I can tell you they considered Waldensians Sabbath-keepers.
ReplyDeleteAnd speaking of which: the latest stats I saw on U.S. denominations showed SDA at #24 - and gaining 214,000 members in seven years.
That's why Adventists don't call themselves a "little flock" - they know better.
Of course the Seventh Day Adventists consider themselves Adventists: Ellen G. White wrote A History of the True Church, which was ripped off by Dugger and Dodd which Herbert Armstrong ripped off from them. They want to establish a faux fabrication of deception to promote the sort of legitimacy which can only be achieved by fiction.
ReplyDeleteOthers have already researched this, as have I -- back in 1990. Today, the Waldensians are Protestant (and not Sabbath Keeping ones, either). Before anyone goes and publishes yet another book, maybe they should be absolutely sure they know what ground has been covered before and what ground has been covered up. The Waldensians -- the name of the group who were originally led by Peter Waldo -- never considered themselves anything but good Roman Catholics. In fact, they considered themselves more pure Roman Cathoics than the corrupted Roman Catholics from the Vatican. Peter Waldo was a businessman who took some of his wealth to buy a portion of the Bible. He read it and declared a life of sacrifice, poverty and devotion. The Sabbath was not a part of that.
Others, who did not really know much, but who had heard of Peter Waldo, as so many do, went off and made up their own religion (some replete with the Sabbath) and called themselves Waldensians.
Whatever "new truth" anyone comes up with from dusty tomes, the answer is the same:
The claim of legitimacy based on an unbroken line of hands on Sabbath keeping Christians is a fabricated fraud. If that is not disturbing enough, the Armstrongists know it full well by now (and some admitted it in the 1990s in The Plain Truth, after I brought it to their attention), and they continue to lie. Let me repeat that: They lie.
They lie to you and then take your money.
And that is the truth.