The Journal has an interesting review of a UCG ministers conference in January of this year. It concerns a question and answer period. Several highlights are listed below. The most telling conversation is the one that Gary Petty brings up about reconciliation. In what I read from Petty's comments is that he gets what is wrong with UCG and COG's in general (besides law keeping). However, Bob Berendt does not get it at all. It's all about power, control and determining who has the right to be forgiven. Berendt is totally ignorant about the process of forgiveness from Christ. It does not work according to the linear line Berendt assumes. Berendt to me exemplifies all that still remains wrong with UCG.
In regards to the situation in Latin America:
Council member Roy Holladay replied that the situation in Latin America was fluid, or, as he put it, "progressive."
"Over a period of time,"he said, "we had gotten a number of E-mails from various areas of Latin America but especially Chile, where there were members appealing how they were being treated [by church leaders], how they were being suspended, how they were being dealt with. And we were being asked to intervene."
"What we had discovered in Latin America," Mr. Holladay continued, "is that this is not necessarily totally as it's been painted: one happy family, everybody working together [under Mr. Walker's leadership]. There have been a lot of problems, a lot of difficulties."
He said that, contrary to rumor, about "a quarter of the members" in the region are "still--very much still--with United."
On servant Leadership:
John Elliott of Phoenix, Ariz., speaking from the audience, changed the subject. Mr. Elliott wanted to talk about "servant leadership."
In the old WCG, the ministers were unquestionably the boss over the lay members. The members were subject to the directives of the ministry in many significant aspects of their lives.
Servant leadership, on the other hand, turned that concept upside down. Ministers--the very word minister in English and other languages comes from a root that means servant--were to be, in a much more real sense than in the old WCG, servants of the church, servants even of the lay members.
"I'd like to know where this is going to go, what your plans are, and the relevance of Christ-centered servant leadership to the ministry of the United Church of God," Mr. Elliott said. "Could you [the council] update us on that, please."
President Luker stated to Mr. Elliott that he likes the term "servant leadership."
"All it means is that we look to Christ, our leader, to set the example for us in love and humble service, and those are the kinds of leaders we should be. The emphasis is on servants of God's people."
(In other words, same old, same old. Don't expect many ministers to become servant leaders. They are more concerned about control. It's a power trip for many of them. They like the prestige, the notoriety that it brings and the fear that it brings to others.)
UCG drop in income:
Mr. Dean said the church is "obviously taking a big hit financially." On the other hand, expenses are down because fewer people--the departing ministers--are on the payroll.
He said income is down for the first half of the year 12-15 percent from last year at the same time.
"For the year we're obviously down much more than that. In fact, I would say we're probably 35 percent.
"But then again it's the widow's mites that are blessed by God ... We just have to step out and realize that this is His work."
The events connected with the split and the terminations and resignations could cost the church "seven or eight million dollars," Mr. Dean said. "That's a lot, but then our expenses have dropped," although "we want to replace people."
On the UCG and COG's in general, lack of willingness to look at the failed prophecies from William Miller, Armstrong and on to today.
Yes, Mr. Berg said, but there is also the matter of prophecy.
Prophecy, he said, "has been a big problem in the church ever since 1844 and onward."
That year marked the Great Disappointment of William Miller and his followers in New York state. The Rev. Miller had prophesied specific events that were supposed to lead to the end of the age. But things did not work out that way. Nothing Mr. Miller prophesied came to pass.
Similarly, the old WCG lost "thousands" of members in 1975 at the time of that church's great disappointment when predictions that centered on the year 1975 failed to materialize.
"We lost thousand and thousands of people," Mr. Berg said.
"Some of us have been trying to open up discussions in the last 15 years with our past administrations here [in the UCG], and we've just been rejected continually when trying to open these things up and to really reexamine things in a way that will not hurt the church."
The understanding about prophecy in the Churches of God, he said, "most of which has been generated from the 1930s era, has discredited the church, and it has disillusioned many of our people."
Gary Petty on UCG Church culture and its failure to reconcile:
The United Church of God has a problem, and it's "systemic," Mr. Petty continued.
"We spent years bragging about what we do for Him. It's a core problem that I started to realize that not only I have. It's part of our culture, and if we don't change it [the phenomenon of church splits] will just happen over and over and over again and it will never stop."
The second problem Mr. Petty mentioned came to his attention in an E-mail. The E-mailer wondered "how can God do any work of reconciliation through a group of teachers who cannot even model reconciliation in their dealings with one another?"
The E-mailer's question "has haunted me," Mr. Petty said, because somehow "we failed at reconciling."
As a result, he began an in-depth study of the subject of reconciliation.
"I realize that not only do I not know what it is, I can honestly say in my life I've met only a handful of people who do: ministers, members, only a handful. Yet we are ambassadors for the ministry of reconciliation.
"I believe we've failed. I have failed."
Reconciling with God
In the midst of what he perceives as his and others' failure, Mr. Petty is "trying to be reconciled back to God in a way that I haven't been for a long time."
If Church of God members cannot bring themselves to reconcile with God, they will "plant the seeds for having another conference like this one."
Mr. Petty is "trying to reach out to the ministers who have left and be reconciled to them on a personal level, and I've spent many hours with them, because that's what's required of us."
He described a movie starring Kevin Costner and James Earl Jones that came out in 1989.
"When United started, remember the analogy of Field of Dreams, the movie?" he asked. "We talked about it all the time. Build it and they will come. Remember when we said that" about the 1995 start-up of the UCG?
"I liked the movie, and I liked the analogy."
In the movie the Kevin Costner character hears what Mr. Petty called a "supernatural voice" that told him to build a baseball stadium.
And he does. He builds the stadium, and at the end of the movie thousands of people visit it. The Costner character builds the facility, and, sure enough, "they" come.
Misinterpreted message
Mr. Petty rewatched the movie a couple of years ago and concluded that he, and UCG elders in general, had misunderstood and misinterpreted the movie's message.
Attracting thousands of people to baseball games was "not what the movie's about at all." Rather, "the movie's about a man who had a broken relationship with his father, and he was tormented because his father died before they could be reconciled."
We took it wrong
The movie is not about attracting new members to a baseball stadium, or, by analogy, new members to a church.
"The movie's about reconciliation," Mr. Petty said. "If you go back and watch the movie, it--the supernatural voice--does not say build it and they will come. It says build it and he will come.
"The whole point of the movie is that the supernatural help doesn't build a facility. But that's how we took it. We thought if we built churches and we built camp programs and we preached the gospel and we ... did all this stuff, the people would come."
But "the analogy's about reconciliation. Build it and he will come."
At the end of the movie, the man's father, played by Dwier Brown, "comes back from the dead to reconcile. That was the purpose. We missed the meaning of the analogy then, and we're paying for it now. We didn't learn it, and we didn't do it."
Mr. Petty talked with a church member who, counting the current split, has experienced six of them since 1995.
"He's gone from church to church, and we just plant the seeds again," Mr. Petty said.
"So I simply ask all of you to join me as I plan on spending the next few months praying and fasting and asking God to help me understand the ministry of reconciliation."
Then there is this view from another minister that "Violence is sometimes necessary"
Mr. Berendt spoke of two horses: a couple of large, solid-footed herbivorous mammals that humans employ as draft animals or beasts of burden or for riding.
In his equine analogy, Mr. Berendt, who mentioned that he's 80 years old and has served four and one-half years on the council, described a "strong" horse and a "humble" horse.
Ideally, he suggested, a humble horse is preferable. However, riding only a humble horse can lead Mr. Berendt and his fellow ministers to "beating ourselves up."
Of course, a minister, an elder, should humbly serve. But there is a time and a place to seat oneself solidly in the saddle of a strong horse.
Violence sometimes appropriate
Mr. Berendt's analogy expanded to include a shepherd, a spiritual shepherd as in Acts 20:28.
A shepherd much of the time rides a humble horse, but a shepherd must carry a big stick because a shepherd "protects the sheep."
The stick is not meant "to hit the sheep with. It's to hit wolves with. It's to protect the sheep."
Because of the existence of wolves, in this case of the human church-leading variety, shepherds must sometimes wield sticks while riding strong horses.
"We have a responsibility, as a council we have the responsibility, as ministers we have a responsibility, to take care of God's people, and sometimes that means getting violent."
Lesson on forgiveness
Remember, Mr. Berendt admonished, "God does not forgive until a person repents."
Accordingly, he seemed to be saying, it is not appropriate for elders and other church members to forgive someone who has not repented.
He concluded: "Let's try to be Christlike. Let's quit beating ourselves up. If you prayed and fasted and turned to God, then you are His child, His servant, His person. And, when you move forward, get on the bold horse sometimes too."
Maybe Petty really gets it, I don't know. As long as he still thinks the law is required, he will never fully get it though. Perhaps I need to look at this as a first step to something better down the line. One can only hope.
There are more interesting things of note from this conference and the rest of the article is here: The Journal: Issue 144 UCG Elders Conference It is worth checking out.
At one time Gary Petty was my church's Associate Pastor, and my friend and fellow softball player.
ReplyDeleteI've always found him to be a compassionate and caring person, not one to lord his office over people but a true servant.
Yes, he's deluded with the party line that he's been fed (from birth I believe) but at least he's sincerely deluded.
And, he's absolutely right. Field of Dreams is NOT about Baseball but about reconciliation.
I've never found reconciliation to be one of the COG's strong points. They don't take responsibility for the carnage produced in the lives of sincere people but rather put it off on Jesus and his miracle changes. Kinda hard to have a chat with Jesus for tricking everyone for decades.
ReplyDeleteThe stick is not meant "to hit the sheep with. It's to hit wolves with. It's to protect the sheep."
ReplyDeleteThis sounds great in theory, and
Robert Berendt does seem like a "nice guy." Perhaps he just has vision problems at age 80. Maybe that is why he uses the stick to help savage wolves beat up innocent sheep.
If you prayed and fasted and turned to God, then you are His child, His servant, His person.
ReplyDeleteAnd what if they have NOT prayed and have NOT fasted and have NOT turned to God? What if they were much too busy doing nothing but evil to others continually?
Oh, then we would have something called the disUCG.
One can listen to endless sermons, and be quoted endless biblical verses, but as long as the UCG is half full of evil people bent on doing evil to others for no reason, there is no hope for it. All the blather is in vain.
My personal mind chatter during Refresher programs, seminars, too many sermons and meetings in WCG.
ReplyDeleteAnd you know this
Oh please, not again!
This is stupid
Why is this such a big deal?
What happens when you die?
And this is the Gospel how?
I'm not a child
Why do you get to make all the decisions?
Ok ok, you've talked long enough
I flew all the way to California for this?
Just sit down
This guy did not do his homework
Did I say, "and what happens when you die?"
Is it just me or is this stupid?
Ok ok, you're done.
So Jesus is coming soon but we're building a what for how much????
and so on
M.T. Hall
Longer term thoughts I had over 26 years.
ReplyDeleteGet out while you can
These people are nuts
They aren't going to help you
You're fucked if stay here much longer
This isn't going away
What did I get myself into?
Do these people have shit for brains?
start over now while you can!
God will fix it
Jesus will fix it
The council of elders will fix it
I wish I had never heard of the WCG
Why was I so stupid?
Now what?
Screw this....
and so on
M.T. Cranium
Toni Bowers at zdnet.com has introduced me to a new toy and I am having a great time: It's like rolling in a field of clover! She wrote this great blog entry for discussion with the technoligists in IT out there about Anger. It turns out that research more than suggests that it is a product of defective DNA. The article lead me to a website blog new to me: Neurological Correlates: A Neuroscience Tabloid of Dysfunctional Behavior – Mostly Psychopaths, Narcissists, Obesity and Addiction. A few hours there and you'll be happy you visited! Oh my, what a wonderland.
ReplyDeleteAnd a great description of what is wrong with the Armstrongist churches of God.
Psychopaths, sociopaths, narcissists, the angry: It's all there and it's mostly inherited defective DNA.
Beyond the fact that the UCG can never fix itself because it is based on the psychotic fantasy of British Israelism and an abjectly unapologetic deception of fabricated church history, rendering it incapacitated in dysfunction forever, it also has personality disorder behavioral patterns which can result in nothing but "Preparing a People" to be abused and disabused.
No matter which topic you choose, there is a field of landmines. Reconciliation? Now where did that problem come from? Could it possibly have anything to do with Herbert Armstrong being unable to admit he was wrong and reconciling with the Church of God Seventh Day? Oh, the anger and the lies they have to tell! Ignoring it won't make it go away -- after all, the CoG7D has 300,000 members world wide with 200 congregations in the United States, with stronger congregations in South America. Stacked up against the CoG7D (which Dennis Luker is apparently trying to emulate in the arena of being a Christ Centered Church), United is a complete flop. If you must have your Sabbath keeping religion, go back to the source.
The issue -- and you are all ahead of me here -- is money. The ministers and administration need the money. They can't just do the right thing and give up and tell the membership to go elsewhere because they have failed! To do that, they would lose their salaries and retirement and have to get real jobs.
But here it is.
They lie,
and then they take the money.
Reconciliation?
In case you have difficulty finding the article on anger it is here (Anger management: Dopamine Receptor Allele and Nuclear Receptor Genes Are Associated with Anger and Aggression).
ReplyDeleteOne more thing for you liars in UCG: William Miller was an Anglican Minister when he made the predictions in the mid 1800s. It was after The Great Disappointment he repented of being a false prophet and adopted the Sabbath.
ReplyDeleteIt's convenient to blame another man's sin for your own, but you did the reverse: Supposedly you repented and then became false prophets.
You have it backwards in both senses of the word.
Near the end of this post we read: "...Maybe Petty really gets it, I don't know. As long as he still thinks the law is required, he will never fully get it though. Perhaps I need to look at this as a first step to something better down the line. One can only hope..."
ReplyDeleteWhen it gets to reconciliation it appears that none of them really "get it," because they focus so much on self and not on God, who knows how to work out that reconciliation.
Reconciliation is only possible by God, who must initiate, must originate it, by the power of His Spirit. If that Spirit is not working in one's life, Godly reconciliation will not, cannot, occur...try as hard as they (ministry, individuals, etc.) strive to do that themselves.
The Apostle Paul understood the following about reconciliation:
"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." 2 Corinthians 5:19
The focus must be on God, because the end result, thanks to God, will be: "...God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them..."
Not imputing trespasses? What a deal that would be! That's quite something if God can pull that one off, but He can't lie. Most don't believe that verse in 2 Cor 5.
It was pointed out about Gary Petty that: "...As long as he still thinks the law is required, he will never fully get it though..."
It's probably true for him at this point in time; I suspect he'll change his mind later. God is not going to impute trespasses!
So many people, especially those from the various religions, want to impose God's law on this entire world, but God never gave His law to this world. He did give it to ancient physical Israel, but without God's Spirit dwelling in them, they could not keep God's law. It was given to God's Church, spiritual Israel, sealed Firstfruits with God's Spirit, and even there if one looks into the mirror, they must conclude as the Apostle Paul did:
"Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Romans 7:17, 20.
Paul, with God's Spirit dwelling within him, also said: "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." Galatians 5:17
James, another sealed Firstfruit, knew the problem with reconciliation would exist due to what dwells inside human beings:
"...The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy..." James 4:5
James included himself. Who in the ministry in cog-land agrees with Paul and James on what has just been said about reconciliation, sin, a spirit that dwells within that involves things like lust and envy (not the Spirit that produces fruit of love, joy, peace...FAITH...temperance, etc.)!
So, yes, if there is to be any worthwhile reconciliation God must initiate, originate, it or it won't happen.
This world was MADE subject to vanity, but there is hope. Yes, this world cannot now receive God's Spirit (John 14:17), but that day is coming.
Regarding the United Association, it appears that God never provided them with a servant to lead them...so they vote one in, and out, and in, and out...etc.
COGWA, will follow in the United footsteps and do the same, but time will tell. They are all “cut” from the “same cloth,” sort of speak.
If God's Spirit is not involved, they can talk about reconciliation all they want, but it won't come...until it becomes obvious that: "...God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." 2 Cor 5:19
God will work reconciliation out His way...not the united way or any cog-way.
John G
William Miller was an Anglican Minister when he made the predictions in the mid 1800s. It was after The Great Disappointment he repented of being a false prophet and adopted the Sabbath.
ReplyDeleteActually, William Miller was a self-taught Baptist preacher who was apparently never formally ordained.
William Miller never accepted the Sabbath and never joined the Seventh Day Adventist church that was formed a number of years after his date setting had proved wrong.
Unfortunately, Ellen White had listened to William Miller in her youth and could not accept that the 1844 date was simply wrong. As a result, SDAs to this day are taught that something invisible happened on that date.
Oh, the anger and the lies they have to tell! Ignoring it won't make it go away -- after all, the CoG7D has 300,000 members world wide with 200 congregations in the United States, with stronger congregations in South America.
ReplyDeleteIn the USA and Canada combined, the COG7 probably has only about 5,000 people after all these years. The congregations are pretty pathetic, and so are most of the people in them. It is as if they have a name that they are alive, and yet are dead!
I recall that in the 1990s they claimed to have done better in South America with about 65,000 people there. In the 2000s it was said that they had around 200,000 people worldwide, and now one hears that the number of people in associated groups around the world is 300,000.
When you are allowed to just make up numbers, and include in your membership numbers people and groups that don't even know that they are being counted and included, great things can (falsely) appear to be happening.
Meanwhile, back in the USA and Canada, where the picture is much clearer, it is still the same old wiped out little church, that has a name that makes it sound like it is alive, even though it is dead!
Well, you know, the only credible source we can have is not anonymous opinions, but the CoG7D itself from the front page of their website:
ReplyDeleteThe General Conference, Church of God (Seventh Day), is a family of more than 200 local congregations scattered across the United States and Canada. Through its International Ministerial Congress, the Church of God (Seventh Day) is a global church, connecting 300,000 members around the world. Begun in the mid-1800’s, this church remains committed to the centrality of Christ, the authority of Scripture, and the truth of the Sabbath, among other distinctives. Its denominational headquarters is located in Denver, Colorado.
As you browse this Website, I trust you will become more acquainted with our vision, our ministries, and our organizational structure. If you are a member, I trust you will be inspired to greater commitment, and if you are not, I pray you will consider partnering with us as we proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ, introduce others to the Lord, teach them to obey His Word, and nurture spiritual growth in all believers.
Whaid G. Rose
President
Oh yes, I think Gary Petty gets it.
ReplyDeleteBut speaking of COG7, I discovered the June-July issue of its church newsletter Churchright has an eye-opening article about reconciliation.
It admits three top COG7 leaders "entered into professional Christian mediation" in May (pg. 3) "to resolve conflicts that had arisen between us...."
Look back a few issues, and you'll find this occurred after one of those leaders was granted a two-month "sabbatical" in March.
But review this article, and you'll see something UCG, COGWA and most other COG's would never do. These ministers sought help -- and "outside the box" at that.
In other COG's, this obviously would be scandalous. I Corinthians 6 would be invoked, since critics would consider those mediators "professing Christians" only -- not real ones.
But here's the thing -- for now, the COG7 leaders seem to be getting along again. "He [God] redeemed our relationships," the article says. Can UCG and COGWA truthfully say that?
Well, you know, the only credible source we can have is not anonymous opinions, but the CoG7D itself from the front page of their website:
ReplyDeleteThe only credible source?
You need to ask them how they are coming up with those numbers.
"Maybe Petty really gets it, I don't know. As long as he still thinks the law is required, he will never fully get it though. Perhaps I need to look at this as a first step to something better down the line. One can only hope."
ReplyDeleteI am reading in my old, war-torn Bible that reconciliation is a law. God demands it.
Let's hope Petty obeys the law, rather than give himself over to the lawlessness of subjective expediency ministers of all creeds are notorious to obey.
Two points struck me:
ReplyDelete1) "God forgives you when you repent." Actually, God forgives you when you ask Him to. Regular repentence is part of the daily sanctification process, of course. That's a given. However, Jesus also taught that we should forgive others so that Father God would forgive us. There are actually two unforgivable sins, the second being failure to forgive others! It doesn't matter whether those others happen to be believers or not.
2) It is military solutions that involve violence, and result in peace if one of the opposing sides reaches a state of total capitulation. As an example, right at this point in history, the only long lasting solution to Islamic Fundamentalist terrorism would be something which induces total capitulation and perhaps subservience of that idealogy and its participants. One major problem with Islam is that it is a theological system which is expanded and perpetuated by violence. This was true from the time of Mohammed.
BB