People change as well the information, stories,
understandings, so called facts, ideas and truths we all were given from others
in our youth.
Every wedding I ever performed, whether I thought
the couple had much of a chance or not, was an exercise in forcing them to
promise they would never change in their views towards life or each other, and
then I failed to inform them everything all around them, from this moment
on will start to change . The reason I didn't tell them that was that I
did not understand that myself at the time. You know, "Jesus Christ, the
same yesterday, today and tomorrow," along with the church and it's story kind
of thing.
Ministry is a somewhat unique calling. From
experience, the membership totally expects the minister to never change and
always tell the same old old story they all think they love so well. They
all too often expect him/her to be and do everything they have no personal
intention of ever being or doing as well. I know churches from both
sides of the altar so to speak and people are just plain people. In fact,
one lesson from all this myself is that people change very little in life no
matter what the story.
The world of theology is huge. Most in ministry
attend the school of their
denominational choice and, of course, get the spin on the Bible and the "truth" plainly visible to them in their perspectives. Others outside that experience are less than true. In most fundamentalist schools it truly becomes a case of "we are right and you are of your father the Devil." Most liberal seminaries are called liberal because they actually study the bigger picture of theology and admit to it's messy nature.
denominational choice and, of course, get the spin on the Bible and the "truth" plainly visible to them in their perspectives. Others outside that experience are less than true. In most fundamentalist schools it truly becomes a case of "we are right and you are of your father the Devil." Most liberal seminaries are called liberal because they actually study the bigger picture of theology and admit to it's messy nature.
But life unfolds. None of us get the truth of
anything from birth into it. It truly is "the glory of a king to search
out a matter." The problem is that as a man or women given to teaching
theological truth as they understand it also accumulates more and more
knowledge, experience, disasters, pain and life realities along the way. Most of
life unfolding will eventually challenge anyone's beliefs so dearly gotten in
their youth.
One reads more and listens to more and eventually comes to hold different conclusions about those once cherished beliefs. Remember, beliefs are not truth. There truly are mere beliefs.
One reads more and listens to more and eventually comes to hold different conclusions about those once cherished beliefs. Remember, beliefs are not truth. There truly are mere beliefs.
And so along with members of churches, ministers
realize they need to move on and perhaps either regret the choice in the first
place, or at least realize they can't teach what they no longer believe and need
out.
Let me be blunt. On this site and with the
experience most here have had, the reactions to or the advice given to such men
and women in this life situation are usually along the lines
of:
"The bastards should quit now and stop stealing their paychecks"
"The liars deserve what they get.""The moment you stop believing, you should move out of your house, stop eating the food "they" provide for you by giving you a paycheck, tell your family they can go swim for it and get your job at Walmart you son of a bitch."
I can't help you if that's the best you can come
up with in your mind on how a man or woman who probably made a lot of personal
sacrifices and has a story on how they came to ministry themselves, should
handle this dilemma in their maturing lives. However, I do expect these
kinds of comments and will attribute them to painbodies trying to get even
:) I know many CURRENT COG minister and member types who struggle with
this dilemma and stay. I know many COG members who "keep the Feast," by
going to nice places each Fall but never to any services. Yet they painly
tell their friends and bosses, "I have to keep the
Feast."
For decades, ministers have told me, "You are
ahead of your time and you say what I only think!" I can't help that
but do know the conflict of it all. I imagine most critical thinking
Christians of all denominations understand this concept.
The Clergy project, sponsored by the Freedom From
Religion is an organization that helps clergy, most highly educated at the best
schools and not booklet educated Apostles, Watchers and Witnesses, is the work
of Dan Barker, former Evangelical Pastor and Author of Losing Faith in
Faith. Most of these pastors could tie the average person
up in knots of the history of the Bible and the contradictory messages it
contains. The Clergy Project is a compassionate and balanced way for
men and women of former faith to move on with as little collateral damage as
possible. Many times the damage is unavoidable and the lives of mates,
children and extended are forever changed as well.
I serve in the capacity of "one who knows'' to
this project and find it all very familiar with only the names and organizations
changing.
Life is a journey and the Clergy Project is a way
station along the way for men and women of former faith who finally had to face
the facts and stop not seeing what they do see. It's a painful journey and
like a church member who can just not choose to show up the next week while
their lives keep in full step, liberating sometime after the "No one told me
this when I was in Seminary" hits the fan.
The Clergy project is a very compassionate,
balanced and extremely helpful endeavor and I honor them in this. I am pleased
to be a small part of it. I wish I had had something like this in my own
transitions instead of just getting thrown under the bus by my own studies and
denomination and left in the gutter with, "just call the business office and
they can help you with your questions about severance," or as the head of the
WCG "Reconciliation Dept" said, "We wish you the best of luck and will
pray for you." Or did they say "be warmed and be
filled," I forget...
The Clergy Project is a confidential online community for active and
former clergy who do not hold the supernatural beliefs of their
religious traditions. The Clergy Project launched on March 21st, 2011.
Currently, the community's nearly 100 members use it to network and
discuss what it's like being an unbelieving leader in a religious
community. The Clergy Project’s goal is to support members as they move
beyond faith. Members freely discuss issues related to their transition
from believer to unbeliever including:
- Wrestling with intellectual, ethical, philosophical and theological issues
- Coping with cognitive dissonance
- Addressing feelings of being stuck and fearing the future
- Looking for new careers
- Telling their families
- Sharing useful resources
- Living as a nonbeliever with religious spouses and family
- Using humor to soften the pain
- Finding a way out of the ministry
- Adjusting to life after the ministry
“We know there must be thousands of clergy out there who have secretly abandoned their faith but have nowhere to turn,” says Dan Barker, a former evangelical preacher who “lost faith in faith” after 19 years of preaching the gospel. “Now they do have a place to meet, a true sanctuary, a congregation of those of us who have replaced faith and dogma with reason and human well-being.”
Dennis, as I read through "The Lucifer Effect" by Philip Zimbardo, I have a better vision of what life is like for you. It can be quite disturbing to take a role of a guard in what I'm calling, "The Pasadena Church of God Ambassador College Prison Experiment".
ReplyDeleteThe further I get, the more I can see just what Dr. Zimbardo (one time head of the American Psychiatric Association) is talking about for the 1971 Stanford Prison Experient at the University at Palo Alto.
It's all there with the Prisoners, Guards, Warden and Superintendent: Conformity, obedience, deindividuation, dehmanization, moral disengagement, and the evil of inaction. Dr. Zimbardo admits his culpability in that disaster experiment gone wrong, but he also shares with us the lessons he personally learned from it, as well as the analysis to teach us all what we can learn from it.
Any former ACoG minister and / or ex Corporate Manager should read this and take a really good long look at themselves, because, after all is said and done, it is understanding what the system that has been set up is the rotten barrel into which the good apples are introduced and it renders the understanding of how good people turn to evil when confronted with a dysfunctional environment for which they are not prepared.
Douglas, no longer know what to say to you as I know with how broad a brush you paint the experience and those who took part in the church.
ReplyDeleteI understand that you attend the FOT or did in the fairly recent past. You have been writing for a long time about the prison.
When was the last FOT you attended and if so, why? Did you go last year? Are you there now? If so, and I am not saying it is so, but if so, why do you go back to visit the prison and listen to the guards and the wardens???
It is just something I heard so if you have not been attending in the recent past at all, I apologize in advance. But if so...how is that different?
Most prisoners freed don't go back for family reunions as far as I can tell.
I get tired of the "you ministers" labels but have no personal need to redefend my own personal ministry or attitudes. I am just thankful I did not grow up in WCG, was Presbyterian in a balanced family until I went and managed to stay outside the loop pastoring rural churches by myself for two and half decades. I never even attended a WCG service until after I went to college
On break in teaching massage, so break over, back to rubbing peoplet the right way :) and teaching it!
Dennis, my comment probably did not make sense unless you read the book. I intend to be ameliorating because as I progress through the book, I can see more and more that it is the environment, not the starting character of those who participate in "The AC Prison Experiment". I no longer believe that the ministers were really bad people, "rotten apples", if you please, but were temporarily turned by a "rotten barrel". I'm sorry if I was not clear about that.
ReplyDeleteThe good news is, and I just have failed to pass this along, that anyone who was a good person and became a "guard" can revert to the "good" person they were before they enter the environment. I perceive you more now as one of the "good guards" of the AC Prison Experiment. Sometimes it is difficult to deal with whatever harm directly or indirectly occurred in "The Prison Experiment". The prisoners were not entirely faultless.
As "The Lucifer Effect" points out is that those who stand up, may not be recognized as such, but some go through "the prison system" as heros, when they stand up for others and maintain a modicum of integrity. I am fairly confident, in whatever limited opportunity, you did operate in that way. (You know, though, it is extremely difficult when the whole system is set against you and it is very clear that the system itself will do what it can to remove you if you try to change the system.) I offer that the book may do you good.
As for your other question, it is a matter that it is difficult to be explicit in the answer. Now if I were attending a Feast somewhere, I would be attending to learn what I could and surreptitiously be handing out the DNArefutesBI.com Business Cards, but note that that is not what I'm saying, since it would undermine any effort to undermine the Armstrongists in their delusions. I'm sure that's pretty vaguely clear. I would add that one person has already disappeared from the venue after getting a card, but I'm not admitting a thing.
After all, the prisoners don't just stand up and tell the guards about the tunnel they've just dug out of the prison, do they?
One more thing.
It is my personal belief that "The Lucifer Effect" is best illustrated in the ACoG environment back in the late 1960s and early 1970s, particularly in Big Sandy, Texas by the treatment of conscietious objectors. The story which Neotherm wrote certainly illustrates this very clearly. Snarky minister offspring teens subjecting the conscientious objectors to abuse on pain of being thrown into prison, certainly demonstrates the kind of abuse the prisoners in the "Stanford Prison Experiment" received at the hands of the Guards. The Neotherm account is chilling, especially since these were sincere converts willing to obey the rules in spite of how difficult it was, and yet were "punished" because the ministerial trainees in the church thought they were some sort of criminals. They were the lowest of the low in the church and were not treated like brethren in church there.
Hi Douglas, I agree with your sentiments. It's been a trip!
ReplyDeleteToday was the 12 hour at school day so hitting the hay before it hits me!
Thanks!
Even if a person had been the type who once did a whole bunch of bad things, people can and do change. It's just that if someone did some of these things that hurt us personally, the memory of that tends to freeze them for us as an eternal snapshot in time. That's why forgiveness is such a gas!
ReplyDeleteI think people grow in a variety of directions, some of which may or may not run parallel to our own.
One person may reverse his course, while we might prefer that he find more depth in his original course. I've come to realize through my continuing theological studies that there never really was any depth to Armstrongism. It always was off center, or out of phase.
The good news is that this is not necessarily a problem, since there are myriad people with truly inspired thoughts, many of which deserve further examination. We never should have singlesourced to one toxic cult in the first place. That was our first mistake.
BB
Byker Bob, if I can be funny about this, I agree we should not single source to a toxic cult! We should pick a variety toxic cults!
ReplyDeleteWell, you COULD play one against the other!
My departure was much easier since I was not directly in the ministry but it was still traumatic. I really sympathize with those who are caught in the trap with seemingly nowhere to turn.
ReplyDeleteLuckily, I had the talents inherent in me and the good fortune to stumble upon a skilled profession on my own and prosper somewhat. I know the bewilderment and fear all too well. It was terrifying. What does one do with no work history, no marketable skills, an unaccredited and worthless BA and a family depending on them?
You thrash about desperately and there's always the temptation to compromise and try to crawl back in some way. I didn't have the stomach to do that. It would have totally emasculated me mentally and emotionally, to the delight of some of my sadistic enemies, I'm sure.
I don't justify those who failed to act in total honesty, but I do understand the temptations they had to face. I think a helping hand organization is wonderful and a great instrument of love and compassion.
Douglas said: " because the ministerial trainees in the church thought they were some sort of criminals. They were the lowest of the low in the church and were not treated like brethren in church there."
ReplyDeleteReally sad and maddening stuff. I met a couple guys who were in the "work program" and did sense that somehow they were thought of in a more negative why, though why I did not know. These were sincere CO's trying to stay out of war and meet obligations.
I got a deferral and the CO status because of writing the basic at religious school, wanting to be a minister and "hell no I won't go." ha.
I was 18 and my lottery number was 14 so I was doomed outside of AC at any college would not to into the military. It's not me and I would have been the first to say "if we keep this up someone is going to get hurt."
That would have gone over big
Douglas said: " because the ministerial trainees in the church thought they were some sort of criminals. They were the lowest of the low in the church and were not treated like brethren in church there."
ReplyDeleteReally sad and maddening stuff. I met a couple guys who were in the "work program" and did sense that somehow they were thought of in a more negative why, though why I did not know. These were sincere CO's trying to stay out of war and meet obligations.
I got a deferral and the CO status because of writing the basic at religious school, wanting to be a minister and "hell no I won't go." ha.
I was 18 and my lottery number was 14 so I was doomed outside of AC at any college would not to into the military. It's not me and I would have been the first to say "if we keep this up someone is going to get hurt."
That would have gone over big
My friend, Jim, went to AC Big Sandy to work on the 1-W program. He almost got sent to prison.
ReplyDeleteYou see, he was an expert engineer and went to work in the transportation department. He had real skills. He went on to become an aeronautical engineer.
One day, he was servicing the gas pumps, filling up the cars in the order that they arrive.
Up roars a 240z with a VERY impatient woman who seems to think she was REALLY special and wants her tank filled ahead of everybody else. Jim balks.
After a little talk by his supervisor of the consequences of his rash deed, he came to recognize Mrs. Les McCullough, the wife of the Chancellor and her auto and made sure she got priority.
Lest he go to prison.