Maybe It's Just a Coincidence...Yeah...That's It!
Those familiar with the Worldwide Church of God know that after
many years of observing what most would call "Jewish Holidays" but with
Christian significance, the Church has now switched to the more
generically acceptable Christian holidays, such as Easter and Christmas.
In the past, these Spring Equinox, Summer Solstice, Fall Equinox and
Winter Solstice holidays were replaced by the recognition of Passover
over Easter in the Spring and the Festival of Tabernacles in the Fall
over Christmas. While no religious holy day springs from a vacuum, and
the Jewish Holy Days, also sprang from the pagan agricultural holidays
that preceded them, I wonder if the Worldwide Church of God, and all
Christians would be intrigued and challenged to realize just exactly
which "Son" was being born on Christmas and why?
And keeping the Passover doesn't get you off the hook either.
Passover is the same motif of darkness/slavery and death being overcome
by freedom and light as the Sun breaks free of it all and victory goes
to the Most High. The Lamb is slain because the Age of Aries began with
Abraham finding the Lamb in the bush to fill in for his son Isaac, and
ends with the Lamb of God dying to usher in the Church age of Pices, the
fish.
What is the symbol of Mithraism found in small temples all over Europe?
Mithras slaying the bull 4000-2000 BC as Taurus which used to be the
Easter Constellation is replaced by Aries the Lamb 2000-0 BC, nicely
coinciding with the beginning of the Old Testament Lamb motif. It's the
magic of the progress of the Equinoxes and the biggest secret the
priests had to keep from the people and the real reason the OT is full
of commands NOT to look at the heavens or let it tell you stories.
That's the job of the Priests! Priestly "knowledge" was often science
that had been figured out and kept tight to the chests of the ruling
elite.
Plainly put, the story of Jesus' one year ministry as described in
Mark, Matthew and Luke, is an astrological allegory of the journey the
literal SUN takes through the twelve signs of the Zodiac in one year.
God is not called a "consuming fire," for nothing nor does Malachi note
in vain that the "sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in his
wings," (i.e. rays)
The journey of the SON/SUN starts at the birth of the SUN and SON
in December, brought forth by a virgin of all things, and ends just
before Christmas on December 22-24,
the time the SUN appears to be "in the grave" prior to being born again
on the 25th by moving ever so slightly north again and heading towards
spring. Jesus also spent his three days in the grave as we recall.
First of all why would I say that the Virgin brings forth the SUN
and the Virgin bringing forth the literal SON of God later in print was
not the original story? Because the older phenomenon is the sky story
noticed long before it was made literal for the masses.
On Christmas day, in particular 2000 years ago when during Jesus
time, the Sign of Aries the Lamb was coming to an end,, due to the
progression of the equinoxes and signified by the crucifixion of the
Lamb in the Spring, the sky on Christmas morning showed an interesting
sight. Just before sunrise, the SUN sits on the horizon about to be
"born." At the zenith, the high point
in the sky, at that moment, is the zodiacal constellation of Virgo, the
Virgin who is MOST High, MOST Blessed, at that moment the SUN is born.
Her open legs pointing to the sunrise to give birth.
Truly, and anciently, "and the virgin shall bring for the SUN."
The prophecy says that "they shall call his (THE SON) name, Immanuel,
which means "God with us." (Actually it means "God IS with us).
But the literal SON Jesus was never called Immanuel. However, the
real SUN, as SUN of GOD is always Immanuel, always with us. The Bible
even says of "God" that His power is from the rising of the sun until
the going down there of." No one thinks this through. God's power is
only good during the day is what this is saying. God's power ends at
sundown according to this scripture. Evidently this SUN GOD has not power after sunset, which of course is the real SUN and not the literalized GOD or SON of GOD.
Malachi tells us that the Messiah, but calling him the SUN, "shall
arise with healing in his wings." The wings of the sun are the rays
that appear to jet out due to the way humans see the sun when they try
to look at it. One of the great symbols of Egypt
is the sun disc with great bird wings coming out left and right. It's
an old symbol of how the sun looks to humans. The crown of thorns on
Jesus at his death are actually sun ray symbols much like the crown on
the Statue of Liberty.
Let's move on a bit past the birth of the SUN/Son on Christmas
morning. The Gospels say that Jesus was "about 30 years old" when he
began his ministry. The SUN/SON was born in December in the sign of
Capricorn back then which is the Goat, and may account for some of the
Nativity scene animals that were later made literally true in the story.
Each House of the Zodiac takes up approximately 30 degrees of the sky
(30x12=360). So the SUN also is about 30 when it enters the next sign of
the Zodiac in January, which just happens to be the same PERSON Jesus
the SON visited when he began his ministry! This would be Aquarius, the
Waterman for the SUN but John the Baptizer for Jesus the SON. Same
story. One in the sky, one made literal on earth. Same Story! Both SUN
and SON are baptized by the Waterman during this month and both
increase, that is keep moving towards Spring for the SUN or into his
ministry for the SON. Aquarius and John, the Watermen on the other hand,
must decrease and while one sets, the other is decapitated on the
horizon. It is no coincidence that when Aquarius appears to rise again
six months later at dawn instead of sink at sunset, the head comes up
first opposite Leo the Lion, sign of Herod who had him murdered
literally. Aquarius, in the morning sunrise looks beheaded by Leo who is
going down. Could this be why later in Jesus ministry Herod thinks that
John the Baptist is coming back from the dead or had risen, because
Aquarius is rising again after going down six months earlier? Is this a
heavenly astro-theological tale made literally true?
Also, at sunrise and prior to Christmas day, the three stars in the
belt of Orion the Hunter rose vertically and followed the sun across
the sky all day, only to loose it in sunset. Every winter morning this
scene would progress with the three "Magi" rising higher and earlier
each day chasing the SUN/SON. When the story was literalized, it lost
it's common sense. In the literal story we find the Magi saying, "We
have seen his star in the east ...." They then proceed to follow it West
with it ending up turning south and hovering right over the place where
Jesus was. It would be a dumb thing to see a star looking east, watch
it go over head in time and then turn west to follow it to Jerusalem.
You'd play this game ever night for awhile. First head east, then look
up, then turn and head west. I doubt this was the plan of the Magi who
could not have been that stupid. However, when not taken literally we
have the three stars, neatly aligned in Orion,s Belt rising like hikers
in the east and heading west following the SUN or SON that has to be in
the West to find. Great astro-theology but a bit funky when made
literally true. It might explain why Herod could not see the same Star
and had to ask for the Magi to find Jesus for him. It was taking place
in the sky, not the palace. A good Gnostic would say "of course, this is
where the story comes from."
Well shortly after Aquarius and John slip off the scene and Jesus
goes on his way, he goes immediately into the wilderness to be tempted
not to be all he can be by Satan. This would be the SUN, rising from
Winter and heading to Spring and then being the Most High at the Summer
Solstice, but still weak as it is early in the game. Jesus might still
be too young, too weak to continue, so Satan, i.e. Darkness tempts him
to be not be Jesus the SON or SUN. The darkness of Winter does not want
to go and wants to prevent the SUN/SON from en-lightening the world, or
as we might say, Satan does not wish Jesus the SON to take away the sins
(darkness) of the world. Darkness in the human psyche is the world of
evil and fear...the world of Satan. Jesus as the SON, just like the SUN
might just overcome the darkness of winter and Satan if he can't be dissuaded at this weak time of his cycle.
But alas, you can't stop the seasons, so Jesus and the SUN go to
Spring and Easter, which is the time when the SUN has the same strength
as the dark, when day and night are Equi-nox or Equal Nights. It's
Easter because the SUN rises due east and gives SON worshipers a
direction in which to pray on Easter morning. Satan is well on the way
to being defeated with the SUN/SON being crucified literally in Aries
the Lamb, (April-Easter) which Jesus was also called and the SUN in
Aries the Lamb as sign of the Zodiac. For the SUN the crucifixion takes
place where the Celestial Equator crosses the Ecliptic and the Sun sits
right on the intersection of it at Easter, and for Jesus it happens,
same time in Jerusalem, literally.
Interestingly enough, the Egyptian Obelisk centered in the courtyard of the Vatican and viewed from above is simply a huge sun-dial. Markings on the pavement seen as "decorations" in the stone point
out ever Solstice, Equinox and astro-theological event in the sky that
is the origin of the literalised Jesus story. The Vatican knows this.
The laity generally do not. On "Easter" morning, the sun rises exactly
90 East and exactly lines up with the Vatican and the Balconey the Pope
is used to speaking from to bring his message on the risen Sun...errrr
Son. Every symbol he wears and ever utensil he raises to the sky is a
SUN symbol.
It is not coincidence that the Age of Aries the Lamb, which ended
with the SUN moving into PICES due to the progression of the equinox
every 2190 years or so, around the time of Jesus coincides with the
death of the Lamb of God, the Son, Jesus. It is a symbol. "Behold, I am
with you, even unto the end of the age," said Jesus. This was not the
end of the world as some think, but the Lamb Jesus would be with them
until the end of the astrological age of Aries and then Pices the Fish
would begin. It is also no coincidence that the symbol for the SON/SUN's
Church is the fish, nor that in the age of Pices Christians were to be
"fishers of men." The fishing motif in the Gospels is all about the age
of Aries ending around the time of Jesus and the Age of Pices, the
Fishes, beginning. It is no coincidence that right after Jesus overcame
Satan, he went to Galilee, which means "circuit" as in circuit of the
SON, or SUN depending on which location you are seeing the story in, he
meets TWO FISHERMEN, Peter and Andrew and makes them Disciples. Jesus
making his circuit all around Galilee, which means "circuit," with his
12 disciples surround him, is no different than the SUN making it's
circuit (Galilee) surrounded by it's 12 zodiacal disciples. The Sign of
Pices is that of two fish. It is not coincidence that in the feeding of
the multitudes, there were TWO Fish and five loaves symbolizing the five
known planets of the time, Mars, Mercury, Venus, Jupiter and Saturn.
Just for fun. In the Old Testament, the Cherubim with the face of a
man (Aquarius-Winter) the face of a Bull (Taurus-Spring) , the face of a
lion (Leo-Summer) and the face of an Eagle (Aguila) is merely another
astrotheological beast concocted from the zodiacal signs of the four
seasons. If each of the four had six wings..well that makes 24 and I
expect you know what that symbolizes. The 24 Elders around the Throne
of the Sun/Son in Revelation originate as well in the 24 hours of the
day.
Well there is much more. When
Jesus as SON stood on the mount of transfiguration in the summer of his
one year ministry, his face shone like the SUN at noon. This is because
this earthly event is the literal fact in the cosmos that in June, the
summer Solstice finds the SUN at its highest, being the MOST HIGH for
the year and brilliant light. Jesus, standing on that "high mountain" in
summer, face shining like the sun was doing what the SUN was doing as
well as MOST HIGH right over his head. This is not coincidence either.
From June, it is all down hill for the SUN and for Jesus the SON. Cancer
the crab, which moves backwards and is for July and August symbolizes
that the SON and SUN were going backwards now to their fate. Jesus is
betrayed in the Fall by Judas, that scorpion, just as the SUN is stung
and betrayed by Scorpio in its dive to oblivion in December. The Archer
then takes over as Sagittarius, just as the mob does and both SUN and
SON are pierced. They die in late December appearing to be gone and as
the SUN lies for three days in the southern hemisphere, considered the
grave and appears to neither go further south, nor come back north, so
Jesus lies three days as the SON of GOD in the grave. This is December 22-24, the Winter Solstice, But it's all good. One December 25th the SUN and SON are born and brought forth by the Virgin Mary or the Virgin Virgo overhead and the cycle starts again.
Pretty cool huh? Ever hear that in Church? You won't. Actually, it
is still a bit disconcerting to me. What a cover-up! But realize, the
SUN that rises and sets everyday around the planet, while holding little
attention of modern busy men and women today, was THE source of all
religion on the planet. Because the greatest fear men have and have had
in history is fear of the dark. Dark was evil and so became "The Evil"
or "De-evil or Devil. Just as the SUN of GOD overcomes the darkness as
it makes it's one year rise and fall from birth to death, so Jesus as
the literalized SON of GOd, overcomes the Devil and delivers us from
darkness too. The story that is literally true happens in the cosmos,
over your head every minute of every day, month and year. The more
suspect one, made literally true, is what you hear in Sunday
school....Hey! SUN DAY School!!!!!!!
At any rate, Merry Osirmas, Mithras and Christmas. It's all the same story.
Dennis C. Diehl
DenniscDiehl@aol.com
DenniscDiehl@aol.com
It is so strange how hundreds of millions of people for hundreds of years have accepted the story of Jesus as the truth when it is clearly based on sun worship and astrology. Maybe blogs like this are making a dent in exposing this story for what it is, a myth.
ReplyDeleteThank you, thank you, thank you. Hopefully Andrew, Jace and others will at least check this out for themselves (if they haven't already) and consider this as a possibility of having merit.
ReplyDeleteAs was said previously by Andrew, "In re-evaluating, everything must go up in the air. No stone can be left unturned. Whatever the truth might be, it must be allowed to show itself, without me forcing my own preferences into the process."
And remember the words of a song from Gershwin's "Porgy and Bess',
IT AIN’T NECESSARILY SO
It ain't necessarily so
It ain't necessarily so
The t'ings dat yo' li'ble
To read in de Bible,
It ain't necessarily so.
Li'l David was small, but oh my !
Li'l David was small, but oh my !
He fought Big Goliath
Who lay down an' dieth !
Li'l David was small, but oh my !
Oh Jonah, he lived in de whale,
Oh Jonah, he lived in de whale,
Fo' he made his home in
Dat fish's abdomen.
Oh Jonah, he lived in de whale.
Li'l Moses was found in a stream.
Li'l Moses was found in a stream.
He floated on water
Till Ol' Pharaoh's daughter,
She fished him, she said, from dat stream.
Well, it ain't necessarily so
Well, it ain't necessarily so
Dey tells all you chillun
De debble's a villun,
But it ain't necessarily so !
To get into Hebben
Don' snap for a sebben !
Live clean ! Don' have no fault !
Oh, I takes dat gospel
Whenever it's pos'ble,
But wid a grain of salt.
Methus'lah lived nine hundred years,
Methus'lah lived nine hundred years,
But who calls dat livin'
When no gal will give in
To no man what's nine hundred years ?
I'm preachin' dis sermon to show,
It ain't nece-ain't nece
Ain't nece-ain't nece
Ain't necessarily ... so !
Christmas is the first thing I did when I left the cult of Armstrongism. I don't care if it has pagan roots. Part of the reason I did it the first year was to piss of the LCG member living a block away who thought he was God's most important converted COG member on earth. Now in his eyes I am a worshiper of Satan and doomed to the lake of fire. Sizzle, crack pop....... :-)
ReplyDeleteyou have a gift for taking the complex and fuzzy and making it so plain any open-minded person could see the simple truth. Each time you recount it, your telling gets better.
ReplyDeleteAnon said - ".... it is clearly based on sun worship and astrology."
ReplyDeleteI agree with half of that comment, the astrology part. Originally it had nothing to do with sun worship.
Read carefully what Dennis said about the preist's job. ".... the biggest secret the priests had to keep from the people and the real reason the OT is full of commands NOT to look at the heavens or let it tell you stories. That's the job of the Priests! Priestly 'knowledge' was often science that had been figured out and kept tight to the chests of the ruling elite."
IMO the knowledge was originally understood for what it was, astrological events that happened in the sky every day, every night and every year. Howver, the elite made it a "sun worship" religion in order to control the masses.
Anthropomorphism enters into the equation when it comes to explaining the natural events. The bible is full of this.
Anthropomorphism, also known as personification, is the attribution of human characteristics to inanimate objects, animals, forces of nature, and others. (sun, moon, planets & stars)
The term comes from two Greek words: anthropos (man) and morphe (form).
Sorry folks, I forgot one thing.
ReplyDeleteThis is the reason I said the following to some of my COG friends a couple of years ago,
"All religion is man-made."
Hi Donna, I don't care about the pagan roots of Xmas either. I just enjoy knowing that it has roots. The whole thing is fascinating to me.
ReplyDeleteI don't get too into Xmas but I don't avoid it for any Christian reasons either.
The author of Colosians, and it probably was not Paul noted, "you observe days, and times and seasons and years..." I have listened for decades to any number of explanations for this enigmatic passage. But it seems to trash the keeping of any such things Jewish or pagan.
In my view, Jewish, Christian or Pagan holidays are all one in the same. Their origins are not what they portray and the laity knows precious little about any of it or cares.
When I was viewing an archaeological site involving a Jewish synagogue on the shores of the Sea of Galilee, I did not undertand why the entire floor of the synagogue was a huge mosaic of the zodiac. Now I do.
"As above....so below."
"Hopefully Andrew, Jace and others will at least check this out for themselves"
ReplyDeleteYeah Homer, been there done that. We're on the same page here methinks. Saw a youtube vid that pretty much sums up what Dennis says here, made it my video of the month a few months back:
http://www.escapingeden.com/2011/08/12/video-of-the-month/
One of the great abilities of that we humans possess is our ability to adopt and adapt things to suit our present needs.
ReplyDeleteIt's what brought us from stone tools to industrialization.
Although I do think the Son/Sun connection is a bit of a stretch when you are using the English language to make that connection since English was not the language of the founders. It seems to the same type of connections made by Hislop in his anti catholic polemics.
Religious beliefs are always attempting to find something concrete to represent what we feel inwardly to hold truth or sacredness. Being drawn to use light or its source (the sun) just happens to be one of the biggest concrete symbols around. So we adopt and we adapt. We recycle (I'd make a joke about green religion but that just makes me think of the money often wasted in its name)
Others may have used the symbols before, but that doesn’t mean everyone uses them for the same reasons.
"Christmas is the first thing I did when I left the cult of Armstrongism."
ReplyDeleteSo did I; not to piss off anyone (though the shame and horror it probably brings is worth it) but because I had always secretly loved Christmas. I grew up in a semi-Armstrong household so we were exposed to it, but not really allowed to participate in it. There is another reason I observe it- for my children. I want some sort of holiday/event that my children will remember fondly and always associate with family.
Paul Ray
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteIt is so strange how hundreds of millions of people for hundreds of years have accepted the story of Jesus as the truth when it is clearly based on sun worship and astrology. Maybe blogs like this are making a dent in exposing this story for what it is, a myth.
MY COMMENT: A COGer(well, actually, they won't even lurk here)will just say that Satan knew the plan of God beforehand, so he just used the sun, astrology, etc, as counterfeits to throw everyone off, so that Dennis would think that Christianity was patterned after the zodiac instead of the other way around. You can't win the argument with them. "Poor Dennis, he's in the hands of Satan. We'll pray for him!".
IS - RA - EL
ReplyDeleteWhat does the name Israel mean?
Is-ra-el is made up the combination of three gods/goddesses.
Isis..the Egyptian Feminine principle
Ra..the Egytian Solar Deity
El..The Canaanite/Hebrew supreme God (Different from YHVH) and over the council of the gods in Genesis 3.
The name 'Israel' according to the Jews, means "God rules", or "God shines"
The reason God rules is because it is the Greater light to rule the day. It is a consuming fire. His strength is from the rising up to the going down thereof.
Still a sun god in any language.
In the NT the woman is the reflection of the man just as the moon as feminine principe is a mere reflection of the male sun.
Men give off their own light and power. Women merely reflect it.
argh!
NO2hwa. That's a great picture of the four faces symbolizing the four seasons!! Really makes my point. Thanks!
ReplyDeleteHomer-
ReplyDeleteWhile I appreciate your injecting my previous comments into this comment section in order to push your agenda, I am not sure you've been entirely even-handed in quoting me. Let me explain.
I have a difficult time with regarding your agenda, and it is threefold:
1) On the one hand you claim, rather authoritatively I might add, that the only truth of the bible can only be understood through the somewhat esoteric metaphor of astrotheology. In doing so, your language seems to communicate a rather superior tone, as though you are one of the enlightened few who understands "the truth of the bible," metaphorical though it may be. Well, get in line. That sort of sentiment and attitude of superiority is at least one-half of what bothers me so much about all the COGs. I despise that attitude. Sorry, but that’s the honest truth. You may have left the COGs, but you were trained well during your 35 years in the “Degobah System,” so the Force still seems to be strong with you.
2) Then with the other hand, you disavow all knowledge of new age spirituality. I simply cannot comprehend how you speak as though you are so knowledgeable about astrotheology and simultaneously claim to be totally ignorant about the larger framework of new age spirituality of which astrotheology is an integral part. So, no matter how detailed your study into astrotheology might be, I have a hard time taking you seriously because your understanding of it is necessarily so narrow. I will explain what I mean by this in a moment.
3) Most importantly, lets say that we view the bible through your lens of astrotheology to arrive at the exact same MEANING of the bible at which you have arrived. First let me state that I do not claim to know exactly what MEANING that is, but what has convinced you to believe that that MEANING contains any truth whatsoever? Just because the bible and astrotheology are ancient, does that make them *true*, prima facia? Just because virtually all of humanity who has ever lived has believed in some form of this overall story, does that make it true? Richard Dawkins doesn't think so, and I think he's probably right about that.
Continued…
…Continued from above.
ReplyDeleteTo be clear, the overall MEANING that I understand from astrotheology is the same as the overall story of new age spirituality, which is the overall story of pretty much all the ancient pagan religions. It is a story of how men became gods in the past. It is also a prophetic story about how the rest of mankind also possesses that same capacity, and as such must collectively ascend to the next level of astral consciousness.
Because you disavow knowledge of the larger environment in which astrotheology sits, I don't know if you realize that Nazi Germany was an attempt to forge the collective consciousness required to usher in the glorious thousand-year Third Reich. Hitler was not attempting to conquer the whole world for no reason. He was doing it for what he believed was the ultimate good of mankind, so that as many as are able might all join the ascended teachers who have already shown us the way. Of course, there are some who will remain stuck in the past, and who, unfortunately, must be sacrificed for the greater good. If you are not familiar with the meaning of the swastika, the Teutonic pagan religion and beliefs of the Nazi leadership, the connections to Theosophy and the American Eugenics Society, all of which underpinned the policies of the Nazi regime, then I doubt you have understood the story and the ideologies behind this ancient astrotheology in their full splendor. I hope I am wrong, but I fear that humanity may be scheduled to repeat this history lesson once again in the future, but this time, on a global scale, rather than a just a national one. All that is necessary for that to happen is for everyone to view things through the proper lens.
To be absolutely crystal clear, it is for reasons such this that I am not at all confident that astrotheology leads to anything that is actually *true*. What I hear Dennis saying in this blog post is that Christianity is essentially the same as, rather than essentially different from, all the other pagan religions that came before it. I don't have a problem with that, because it may be true. To be sure, I really do mean what you keep quoting me as saying, but if what is *true* ultimately turns out to be something akin to what Hitler believed, it will a bitter pill for me to eventually have to swallow. Now, perhaps I am wrong, but what I hear you saying is that you have swallowed this pill with joy, however, I’ll allow, perhaps also in quite a bit of ignorance.
Skeptical pundits have a point these days when they say that myths such as "divining rods" that detect bomb belts, and religious fanatics can both produce serious, real world, detrimental consequences. As I hope I have demonstrated, a seemingly innocent belief in astrotheology is not necessarily a harmless endeavor. If you don't understand the dark side of what you are getting into, it can lead you to trouble. Haven't we already learned this lesson from our time in the COGs? One would have thought so, but perhaps not. The truth is, anything you believe, that does not turn out to be *actually* *true*, has the potential to harm you.
For me, I am beginning to hold the Christian religion at the same arm’s length as I have always held new age religion. But am I right in saying that this is not so with you? Call it what you will, but astrotheology is merely another entry point into new age religion, and it is my perception that this is something you have embraced and begun to believe. If I am correct, can you defend this choice? Since you seem to be trying to convince others to make this same choice also, I would certainly hope that you can.
So, it's fine if you quote me, so long as you're not using it to help people out of one ditch, just so that you can try to push them into yours.
-Andrew
I really don't place any religious significance on Christmas itself, even though I do place great significance upon Jesus Christ.
ReplyDeleteAs far as celebrating it goes, over the years I have found that chicks dig it. So, if the particular wife or girlfriend I was with at the time kept it, I did too in deference to her. That observation may trigger visceral reactions from the Armstrongites, and comparisons to Solomon, Samson, and the ancient Israelites whose pagan wives led them astray.
But, we all know about those Armstrongites, don't we???
Paganism is only paganism if it is used to worship pagan idols. I understand that all of the pagans drank water, and believe me, I have no intentions of giving that up.
BB
What I hear Dennis saying in this blog post is that Christianity is essentially the same as, rather than essentially different from, all the other pagan religions that came before it."
ReplyDelete@ Andrew:
agreed, and just to clarify, when I said to Homer earlier in the comments "We're on the same page" - this (your quoted words) is the page I'm on.
So there is no confusion here, I do not subscribe to anything spiritual, new-age or otherwise, and have zero interest in whatever Homer is pushing. Lest I be quoted in a different context than I had intended... lol
And for the record, I would describe my viewpoints as being identical to those of Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens (leaning more towards the latter in the finer points of debate), may they both live long and prosperous lives.
We're on our own, we're the closest thing to "gods" this planet has ever seen, and I for one am thrilled about that.
Onward...
Sorry Dennis, Still not seeing it the same.
ReplyDeleteConnecting the name Israel to Isis, Ra, and El, again seems to me to be a bit of stretch.
In order for that to be the case, the name has to be an amalgamation of the Ancient Semitic and Egyptian language.
One of the more modern theories to come out of archeology is that the grand history of ancient Israel as documented in the Bible happened on a much smaller scale and that most of ancient Israel was not the result of so much conquering as assimiliation of local tribes into a much larger groups.
Undoubtedly the ancient inhabitants of the land we call Israel had some dealings with the egyptians. However, to presume that names in the oral tradition that were written down around the time of the babylonian captivity resulted from those associations is a bit of a leap. Could it happen? Sure. Did it happen? Needs a bit more proof.
If there's anything out there to support this by an etymologist, I'd be interested to know.
good comments all. For myself, I find the topic of astrotheological thinking and inserts to be interesting and obvious at times in the Bible and Sun God type origins. What it informs me of is what I always suspicioned and that was that even the Bible did not come forth out of a vacuum. Sabbaths and Holydays did not originate with the Exodus or of the Israelites.
ReplyDeleteI don't do crystals, wands, tarrot or any other new age stuff.
I love the possibilities of quantum physics, holographic brains and universes and the real nature of reality, matter and light. I think of the possibilities of parallel universes, string theory and action at a distance. I find waves, frequencies and particles to be fascinating. This is all science well done.
I do believe in the practice of and I do practice meditation. My mind runs like a train and always has. It is a real discipline for me to put space between thoughts and just sit quietly. I used to think it a waste of time but now it is a need and a part of my being. I suppose it has replaced prayer time of the past.
The Bible contains history, history magnified, history imagined, history past turned into prophecy yet to be and history fudged. The esoteric parts, the angels, cherubs, seraphs, heavenly hosts and most high's take their cue from astro theology...as above so below.
It's a marvelous mix and truly a very untold story about the old old story.
Andrew
ReplyDeleteFirst let me thank you for being upfront, frank and honest with your opinions of what I have written in my comments on this blog. I appreciate not reading a bunch of garbage language because one may disagree with my thoughts. May I also be upfront, frank and honest with my answers.
Your initial comment is I am trying to push my agenda. If I do indeed have an agenda it is simply to offer others something to consider other than the Roman religious system that has been pushed upon much of mankind for the past 1800 years.
I apologize if my enthusiasm for something different than what religion has to offer comes across as being “rather authoritatively” sounding or that my enthusiasm “seems to communicate a rather superior tone.” I certainly do not feel that way nor do I think I am “one of the enlightened few who understands the truth of the bible.” I am rather new to this blog way of expressing ideas, so maybe I should tone down my enthusiasim.
Even before I ever heard the term astrotheology I knew the bible was not truth as we had been taught for so many years. I also despise the attitude of superiority demonstrated by the COGs.
I’ll be honest, I had to lookup the “Degobah System” I had no clue. My previous comment “May the force be with you” was a half joking half serious comment. Sort of like most folks saying “God bless you” or “God be with you.” I generally avoid using the term “God” anymore because of all the baggage that comes along with it.
Since your first response to me I have checked out “new age spirituality.” I will neither agree nor disagree with the definitions I found because I don’t know enough about it. Sure, I have heard of these things but did not relate them to the term “new age spirituality.” I have not studied any of this, thus my comment of not being familiar with the term.
My understanding of astrotheology may be narrow in your eyes. I look at it as an answer to many questions that I have had for so many years. I do not look at it as a religion. Maybe “new age spiritually” considers astrotheology a part of a religious way of life, but I do not. As I have stated previously, I am not a “religious” person. Religion to me is a bunch of do this and don’t do that dogmas developed to control the masses.
Your question, “Just because virtually all of humanity who has ever lived has believed in some form of this overall story, does that make it true?” Even though Richard Dawkins may not think so, I think it deserves some consideration.
Your use of the word “MEANING” 3 times struck a cord with me. I have often asked, “What does it really mean?” and “Do we really want to know?” I have found that most don’t know nor do they want to know. I no longer fit into that box.
Your comment relating astrotheology, new age spirituality and “pagan religion” deserves a response. We in this day and time define anything non-christian as pagan religion. Have you considered the MEANING of the word “pagan” or just accepted the traditional definition. We have accepted the meaning of many words found in and relating to the bible. One that comes to mind is the traditional meaning of the word “heresy”. The original meaning is not as we have been “forced” to believe. A simple investigation will reveal the meaning is simply “choice”. It is a bit of a stretch to always apply the word to religion and something always wrong.
I’m not familiar with the understanding of astrotheology having a “prophetic story about how the rest of mankind also possesses that same capacity, and as such must collectively ascend to the next level of astral consciousness..” Is that anything like “going to heaven” or the “kingdom of god?” If it is religious I want nothing to do with it. However, if it gives a better understanding of what life is about I’ll consider it. I have considered many things during the last 7 years, much of which I have discarded.
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ReplyDeleteIf by your statement, “I am not at all confident that astrotheology leads to anything that is actually *true*.” means in reference to anything considered religious, then I agree. However, if you mean there is no relationship to the movement of the stars, planets, sun and moon, then I disagree.
There are no connections with my understanding of astrotheology and your comments concerning Hitler and the goals of Nazi Germany. If the knowledge of how the sun, moon, planets and constellations interact with each other and form a sequential pattern of movement has been utilized as a means of governmental or religious control then that is contrary to my understanding and I disagree with that concept.
I wish there was another word to use other than “astrotheology”. The word itself is the study (ology) of the universe (astro), and god (theos) but implies and links “God” and “religion”.
You are incorrect with, what “I hear you saying is that you have swallowed this pill with joy”. If I don’t understand something, how can I accept it. I know I did in the past with my long association with the COG, but that ended some years ago. I no longer accept the preacher’s command (or anyone else for that matter), “We have men who have studied all these things, just believe what we tell you.”
Even though you may think I am trying to convince others to think as I do, I am not. Sure, I am enthusiastic about something I wasn’t previously aware of, but I only want to share this information with others and to consider astrotheology as a possible answer to questions many people have. If I have come across as being arrogant, or full of all knowledge, then I apologize to you and everyone else. That has never been nor will it ever be my intent. I despise those attitudes. I have much to learn, and as long as my mind and body continue to function I will continue to seek better understanding. I can only do that if I have an open mind and am willing to investigate possibilities.
With your last few remarks, I sense a genuine concern and I appreciate that. However, based on what I have stated, I hope you realize my dislike for anything religious.
Maybe my use of the word “source” and “prime creator” gives you reason to question my understanding. I simply accept that the universe does exist and it does not exist with haphazard abandon. There is order, intricate detail, and amazing engineering. I was once told to get my engineering head out of the bible. I no longer accept on faith that someone else is correct and I am wrong because I disagree.
Are you familiar with the term “vesica pisces” or the “Fibonacci number sequence” - the “Golden Ratio 1.618”? These are concepts that did not occur without some sort of design. “Vesica Pisces” contains a ratio of 153 / 265. Is it just coincidence that fish is one of the signs of the Zodiac and 153 fish were caught in John 21:11? Is it just coincidence that sea shells, sunflowers, galaxies and many other geometric objects contains the ratio of 1.618?
We read in Rev 13:18 that the number of the beast and man is 666. All life forms on earth are carbon based. Is it just coincidence that the carbon atom has 6 protons, 6 neutrons and 6 electrons?
At this time I can not definitively say what caused all that or where all that came from. All I can do is look at reality and try to understand. Those details factually exist in nature and have nothing to do with religious teaching.
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ReplyDeleteThe comment has been made that we are all on a journey. Allow me to make a small metaphor / allegory here. If we take the fast and easy interstate for that journey we may get to our destination faster. However, if we take the back roads or “the road less traveled” we may see a few sites and find a few “nuggets of gold” that we would miss speeding down the highway. Sure, we may take a few dead end roads here or there, but if we look at this as a worthwhile experience rather than be disappointed in where the dead end takes us, we still would have seen different sites, good, bad or indifferent. Each can give us better insight as to what is available.
The decision to accept any “choice” is up the individual. Thanks for your comments and I apologize to all for the length of this response, but I felt the need to answer in as honest a way as I can.
Homer
Hey, Dennis, sources, man!
ReplyDeleteI like the spirit of exposing the obviously pagan origins of all religion (I've been researching the literature on this myself), but we have to make sure we aren't being fooled by plausible but baseless connections made by amateurs. I get the feeling you got most of this from the wholly inadequate conspiracy theory-pushing Zeitgeist. The supposed connections here are tenuous at best and entirely speculative. No professional scholar in any of the relevant fields takes these claims seriously. Particularly cringe-worthy is the tying of word fragments in one language to similar sounding (but linguistically unrelated) words in another language, and offering this as evidence of a correlation. This is precisely one of the follies British Israelism proponents fall into! We should know better than that. This thesis, while superficially compelling, is full of red flags, not the least of which is its lack of citations of credible sources.
Having said all that, I sense that you don't yourself believe this stuff 100% and you just thought it sounded interesting. Fine. But let's remember to be skeptical and to promote factual accuracy. It is all too easy for some to denigrate the actual facts based on the inevitable failure of this "just-so" story to be supported by them. So, please be careful.
By the way, Dennis, if I advise you to be careful in this regard, I hope you (and anyone else) will also take it upon yourselves to help me do the same (I'm not in any sense perfect, and it's not always easy to resist slipping into lazy polemic rather than vetting everything to the nth degree). We have to "keep each other honest", as it were.
ReplyDelete"Are you familiar with the term “vesica pisces” or the “Fibonacci number sequence” - the “Golden Ratio 1.618”?"
ReplyDeleteI'll bite.
"“Vesica Pisces” contains a ratio of 153 / 265. Is it just coincidence that fish is one of the signs of the Zodiac and 153 fish were caught in John 21:11?"
Why wouldn't it be? After all, the second number, 265, which is a full 33% of the set of factors required for any correlation to be meaningful, fails to materialize in the proposed connection. All you have is fish and the number 153. That's not a connection. Besides, there are several other equally plausible "explanations" of the use of 153 fish in the Bible--and one quite plausible one: that there is no significance to the number at all.
"Is it just coincidence that sea shells, sunflowers, galaxies and many other geometric objects contains the ratio of 1.618?"
No, it might not be coincidence in a few cases. But it also isn't spooky or really all that surprising. In fact it isn't as ubiquitous as the myths make it out to be. In the few cases where it seems to appear in nature in a non-coincidental fashion, it likely has everything to do with efficiency, energy conservation, etc., i.e., physics stuff that is well understood, rather than unsupported mystical connections.
"We read in Rev 13:18 that the number of the beast and man is 666. All life forms on earth are carbon based. Is it just coincidence that the carbon atom has 6 protons, 6 neutrons and 6 electrons?"
I count three sixes on my keyboard. And why are you focusing on only those parameters that fit your preconceived notion of a connection? Why don't you consider numbers related to atomic weight or the nucleus (there's only 1 of those)? And why carbon atoms instead of DNA molecules? This is a clear case of selection bias.
By the way, as an Armstrongist "scholar in the temple", I was fascinated by the golden mean and the fibonacci sequence, among many other things. I too thought they had some significance; I bought books on the subject and devoured them, made notes and wrote essays PCG would never publish (simpletons!).
ReplyDeleteAnother weird number phenomenon is Benford's law. The first time I heard about it, it spooked my shit. But there are several good explanations for it (all too technical for me).
"Paganism is only paganism if it is used to worship pagan idols."
ReplyDeleteLOL, you mean like your baal, Yahweh? It's pagan all the way down, unless your schtick is to claim that the invention of monotheism without physical focal points for worship was (1) somehow novel with the Hebrews and (2) revealed from on high. In that case, both are demonstrably false. The shift from polytheism to henotheism to monotheism was gradual and competitive with nearby cultures (the Yahwists didn't even think of it first). Anyway you are crafting an ad hoc equivocation on the word "pagan". Not very persuasive, I'd say.
Homer-
ReplyDeleteApology accepted. Sorry, I kind of went off there. Probably overdid it, so let me offer an apology also.
I guess to me, religion just means a system of belief, not necessarily implying dogma, and not necessarily implying organized mind-control.
Honestly, though, I have begun to look at the feedback I get from interacting with the real world as the most important source of guidance for me today, rather than anyone else's theories. I'm just looking for the principles to set me straight. The bible does have a few, but probably not any more than any other holy book. Part of my problem with churches is that they tend to assume the bible contains teaches an exhaustive set of the principles that human beings need to live optimally. I don't know if other organized religions centered around other holy books make that same assumption, but it's an idea that in my experience has been shown to be without much merit.
I guess I don't buy astrotheology, and I don't buy an astrotheological interpretation of the bible because I guess I kinda feel like they are both works of fiction. I think we might as well organize our entire lives around "Green Eggs and Ham" by Dr. Seuss. I think its fun to try to imagine how wacky and comical the pharisees of that religion would be...
-Andrew
Casey
ReplyDeleteYour initial quote about paganism and your comments indicate you use the term “pagan” in the traditional sense. This is common because most have not even considered there may be an initial use of the word that was different. However, because of the “religion” of the Roman religious system, it took on a meaning that was not even related to the original.
With just a simple word study it could be found that the word “pagan” comes from the Latin word “paganus” which means one who lives in the country. It is a derivation of the Latin word “pagus” or the rural area well away from the larger cities such as Rome. The elitist of Rome looked down upon those country dwelling “pagans”. With the influence of the newly reorganized Roman religious system, Christianity, the term transferred over to those “poor illiterate pagans” who didn’t accept or understand it.
Know this. I am no longer a traditionalist. That is why I quit wearing a coat, white shirt and tie to “services” after I heard from the preacher man that it was the tradition of the COG to do so. Do not assume that I accept the traditional meaning of god, yahweh or any other traditional religious terms. Your written tone with your “LOL” and your attempt to link me with traditional concepts seem to me to have a bit of arrogate ridicule and are not well founded, I’d say.
If I am wrong about what I perceive in your written tone, I apologize in advance.
Andrew
ReplyDeleteYour conclusions and thoughts are perfectly acceptable to me. I have no intention or reason to attempt to change you or your thoughts, or anyone else for that matter.
Again, thanks for your comments. They are well appreciated.
However, “I do not like green eggs and ham I do not like them sam I am” - Dr Seuss
Wow, Dennis, that was quite some annual Christmas sermon!
ReplyDeleteAnd to think that the annual Christmas Sermon I have been hearing was basically:
"Take the word Santa...and move that "n" to the end and what do we have? Satan. Is there anything else to say?"
Well, you've said it...
John
I enjoy the astrotheological perspectives as brought out by Acharya S who wrote Suns of God. Also there is the perspectives of Jordan Maxwell and the older views of Manly Palmer Hall.
ReplyDeleteThese kinds of things were given in sermons in the 1700's but were eradicated by the great evangelical awakening of the times.
I enjoyed Zeitgeist as a simple overview and you are correct about my not believing it all or swallowing it all. I just find it very interesting and there is just too much to be coincidental.
The description of "God's Throne' in Revelation as consisting of "I saw a throne and before the throne a sea of glass and opposite the throne the seven spirits of god' etc.
That is the perfect description of Casseopiea the Throne that is circumpolar constellation which has the Milky Way pass before it and oppposite it is the Big Dipper consisting of Seven stars. Also, somewhere it refers to "God's throne" as being on the sides of the North. That is exactly where Casseopeia is.
You've seen it often. It is the "W" opposite the Big Dipper
Dennis - Your comment fron Nov 15th
ReplyDelete"I did not undertand why the entire floor of the synagogue was a huge mosaic of the zodiac. Now I do."
"As above....so below."
Is that anything like Mat. 6:10... Your will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.
Thanks Dennis!
ReplyDeleteIt's truly amazing that God laid out His plan in the heavens at creation.
God's plan for the salvation of man is older than the earth itself, and this adds to the proof.
I had come across bits and pieces of this over time, but you laid it out nicely in your post.
Thanks again!