Dave for some reason thinks he is far more important than he really. Also, for some reason, he seems to think that the thousands of COG members in the splinter cults will soon be joining him in his most amazing and super fantastic Church of God.
He particularly has it in for Rod Meredith and the Living Church of God. He has a deep seated hatred for LCG. Could it be, that even LCG saw Dave for the hypocrite he truly is?
Make no mistake—I am trying to JOLT you! Be careful not to sneer at what could save your eternal life! Living Church of God members: With YOUR salvation at stake, YOUR leaders are deceiving thousands about the gospel! Are you included? If so, will you permit this to continue?
Dave thinks he, and only he, is doing the mighty work of God and every single splinter cult out there is an apostate tool of Satan.
Understand. God’s enemies have blown a trumpet. They are now more actively attacking Christ’s gospel, and are, in fact, stoutly defending their false gospel. The stakes are too high to ignore this. And if these enemies feel compelled to publicly defend error, how can I do less with the truth? The lives—the crowns—of God’s people hang in the balance!
Like Paul, I am also set to defend the gospel—the true gospel!—the one the Bible teaches!—the only one Mr. Herbert Armstrong taught!—THE KINGDOM OF GOD! This subject involves crucially important truth! In fact, belief of Christ’s one gospel—“that precise identical Gospel,” as Mr. Armstrong put it in his gospel booklet—is tied directly to receiving salvation! This alone ought to get your attention.
Dave says...."stoutly defending their false gospel."
ReplyDeleteI never in my life met anyone who felt they were defending their false gospel. Never met anyone who admitted they were in the false church or were deceived but liked it that way. Never met one person who thought their beliefs were not true or knowingly unbelievable. No one ever said, "I know I am in Satan's Church, but I like the pot lucks."
Dave has no clue what Paul taught, mistakes and all. Dave defends his own version of the Gospel and not some grand original version.
Dave would not last three minutes in the same room with the Bart Ehrmans, Robert Price, Karen Armstrong or Ellaine Pagels of the world of genuine theological study.
He is a cut and paste tale weaving Bible reader.
IMHO
M.T.Bookshelves
"He particularly has it in for Rod Meredith and the Living Church of God.
ReplyDelete'Living Church of God members: With YOUR salvation at stake, YOUR leaders are deceiving thousands about the gospel! Are you included? If so, will you permit this to continue?'"
People really do not know what the gospel is. Johnny Cash can whine away about Sunday morning sidewalks until everyone is sad and depressed, and they call it gospel music.
Roderick C. Meredith's Living Church of God really has come up with a new hybrid gospel idea. Even as RCM added the Protestant idea to the gospel that Herbert W. Armstrong taught, RCM pretended to be criticizing the Protestants for missing half the gospel (the gospel that HWA taught).
This is not RCM's first departure from HWA's teachings either.
RCM seems to be on a roll with the new ideas. In a recent online sermon RCM raised his voice a bit and once again sounded like he was indignant at the Protestants, this time for teaching that we go to heaven as the reward of the saved. He said "we do not go to heaven as the reward of the saved, THOUGH THE MARRIAGE SUPPER WILL PROBABLY BE IN HEAVEN" and we will probably make individual trips to heaven from time to time for various reasons.
"...and every single splinter cult out there is an apostate tool of Satan."
I'm not sure about every single one of them, but it is probably pretty close.
As for David C. Pack and his Restored Church of God, members are required to send in all the regularly required tithes and offerings, plus savings, houses, retirement plans, etc. PLUS do fundraising for the RCG, yet are not even told how many people are in the RCG. Will RCG members allow this to continue? Do they ever have any say whatsoever in anything at all?
No! No! No!
ReplyDeleteThe Supreme Cult, run by my cat, Mikey (also running for President) is the only way to Salvation!!!!
I have all the truth, including the TRUE gospel. HWA had it wrong, and so do all the other "ministers" in the splinter cults. If you would like to know more...truth on any subject, I will be more than happy to enlighten you, but FIRST, you must send me all of your tithes and offerings. If we get enough money, we will have a feast site this year, so hurry and send those checks in! I am asking you to pray that we will receive at least one million dollars by the end of this month, and another million by the end of next month. Time is short. The end is near! There are many false prophets out there who are lying to you in order to get your money and who want to have the rule over you. Don't be deceived. God is only working through one man, and that man is ME! If HWA were alive right now, he would join me.
ReplyDeleteGet out of there!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeLqsvFO31o&feature=related
Judging by the comments closed on every one of his sermons, the Gospel isn't going far...
ReplyDeleteWill Captain No-Fun promote his two sons to the office of witnesses?
ReplyDeleteCheck back often to this station to find out.
What's up with all these COGers proclaiming that there's all kindza "trumpet-blowing" going on?
ReplyDeleteThey need to replace the word, "trumpet" with the phrase, "intermittently working kazoo", so people might be inclined to believe they're really onto something.
Norm
Dave Pack wrote: "...In fact, belief of Christ’s one gospel—“that precise identical Gospel,” as Mr. Armstrong put it in his gospel booklet—is tied directly to receiving salvation! This alone ought to get your attention."
ReplyDeleteDave Pack, where is your proof for what you wrote regarding "receiving salvation?"
Without proof, your readers may just consider those words to be just a pack of lies?
If those words of Dave be true, then the following, for whatever reason, has NEVER gotten Dave's attention:
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he SHALL BE SAVED...
Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we SHALL BE SAVED from wrath THROUGH HIM.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we SHALL BE SAVED BY HIS LIFE.
Romans 8:24 For we are SAVED BY HOPE...
Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (BY GRACE YE ARE SAVED;)
Ephesians 2:8 For BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED through faith; and that NOT of yourSELVES: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD:
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED US, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Those words have a lot to say about receiving salvation and there is not way to add, or pack in, other words such as: Pack...Armstrong...or SELF!
John
Let's see now...
ReplyDeleteHerbert Armstrong is a dead false prophet.
David Pack is a false prophet.
Roderick Meredith has been a false prophet for over 50 years (and still is).
Gospel?
Really?
In reading some of the material presented here and elsewhere I am not overly optomistic about those who have been indoctrinated by the teachings of HWA establishing a kingdom that is ruled by God here on earth right now (or ever for that matter).
ReplyDeleteI believe the existence of humanity with good (right) or bad (wrong or evil) choices to be made throughout life gives a strong indication of an immaterial influence that has prevented total destruction so far. It should be noted that bad or evil is more aggressive in exercising ruthless destruction than those promoting constructive goodness.
The history of religion reveals that religion cannot control mass populations unless it controls or is controlled by the secular government. I doubt those who believe they will be the controlling factor in a kingdom ruled by God; realize that what and how they are teaching may a mute issue even if their prophetic expectations become reality.
It is highly unlikely that a world ruling government can rule without religion. Why? Because no human being can motivate the masses without some type of immaterial influence real or unreal.
People scoff at the idea of a holy spirit without realizing that a holy spirit implies an unholy spirit and even if we deny that spirit exists we still find ourselves faced with what is defined as good (right) or bad (wrong or evil).
The question is will the world leaders be using Christian, Muslim, or some other source of immaterial influence to maintain their control of the masses? Only time will tell. In the meantime I believe each individual should take charge of their personal life and do what they believe is good and right without depending on others to guide them through the morass of confusion that is generated by radio, TV, and internet medias.
This does not mean we should not use these Medias, but there is a need to take a personal responsibility for sifting the good from the bad.
Albert B.
“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.”
ReplyDelete― Seneca
I'd advise people to sidestep the whole issue of teachers, just pick one (a certain Jewish carpenter!) and establish a direct connection.
ReplyDeleteA dimestore psychologist might opine that it would probably be the false teacher who had the seemingly obsessive-compulsive need to constantly tell people salvation was only available through him, and that he was the only one with the truth. A true teacher wouldn't care about these things. He'd just encourage people to get to know God, and let God do the rest.
BB
Look. Pack is an idiot, but he's right about some things. Rod Meredith is a ridiculous figure. He tells his supporters how he is such a conservative and is "holding fast" to Armstrong as the oldest surviving evangelist. But then he tells them to enroll in his Living University, which teaches outright liberalism in doctrine and PROVES that Rod isn't holding fast like he claims to be. And just look at the ministers Rod ordains, hires, and promotes. Liberals outnumber conservatives by maybe 10 to 1. More and more, balanced conservatives are migrating to COGWA, and unbalanced ones are moving to RCG. Mark my words, after Rod dies, Jim Meredith is going to be left as the head of a tiny little authoritarian liberal ACOG sect.
ReplyDeleteA recent Living Church of God sermon by Douglas S. Winnail called Lessons From America's Apostasy is promoting the idea that the Great Apostasy is something big happening in the nation rather than what had happened in the relatively small Worldwide Church of God culminating in Joseph W. Tkach Sr.'s January 1995 written rejection of virtually everything Herbert W. Armstrong had ever taught.
ReplyDeleteRoderick C. Meredith is teaching his followers that the people of the United States are apostatizing by becoming totally degenerate in every way. There might be some point to what RCM is saying, but these people were never truly converted in the first place according to HWA's understanding.
The Great Apostasy according to Roderick C. Meredith is that these ham-eating, Sunday-keeping, Easter-observing so-called "Christians" are now also openly accepting some other additional unbiblical things such as witchcraft, abortion, and homosexuality.
Well, the Catholic church and its Protestant daughter churches have always rejected the laws of God and taught that they were somehow done away with and no longer in force. This is precisely why these churches are full of all their unbiblical, pagan-based teachings. This is why it is so very easy for these churches to accept any other ideas that the Bible describes as vile and wrong. They never did obey God's laws, though sometimes they want people to think that God backs up their own laws and teachings.
Roderick C. Meredith always tries to minimize the size and significance of Herbert W. Armstrong and the Worldwide Church of God and the work that they did over a 52 year period. Getting exiled to Hawaii for 6 months by Herbert W. Armstrong was not something that Roderick C. Meredith ever got over.
Calling his latest church the Living Church of God rather than the Church of the Living God is just another indication of Roderick C. Meredith's subtly messed up mind and his desire to be number one.
BB said:
ReplyDelete" A true teacher wouldn't care about these things. He'd just encourage people to get to know God, and let God do the rest."
Pardon if this seems a bit trite and swoozy. "Just get to know God..." Just how does this work?
In what way does one get to know God? How do you know you are getting to know the right God? How do you know if you are not just making it up and being emotional about it all?
How do you do this? Letting God do the rest? How does one know any God is doing this? Rest of what?
Sorry, I know you're sincere and have found what works for you but these simple phrases of certainty are packed with uncertainty
BB said: I'd advise people to sidestep the whole issue of teachers, just pick one (a certain Jewish carpenter!) and establish a direct connection.
ReplyDeleteThis would be good advice if people were versed well enough in what this Jewish carpenter did and why he did it and have some understanding about why and how this makes a direct connection with a God they may not understand or know.
It is also good to remember that not everyone has a burning bush experience. For many the best advice is to listen to that still small voice that says to do the best you can to live by what you clearly understand before making radical decisions that promote confusion.
Albert B.
Concerning the Winnail LCG sermon, it is absolutely stunning. For LCG to openly proclaim that Baptists are actually Christians according to the Bible is the biggest change in HWA beliefs that has been seen since Tkach. This is a VERY DRAMATIC change for Meredith as he has been perhaps the #1 proponent of COG exclusivity for decades. To even imply that Baptists are Christians risks sending LCG'ers fleeing for the exits. Why they aren't is only further evidence of the hypnotic hold RCM has over them. I do not see why Meredith would permit this unless he has been reduced to a mouthpiece. Let's remember that HWA spent his entire ministry separating WCG from "false" Christianity. For LCG to reverse that teaching and accept
ReplyDeleteMethodists as fellow Christians is astounding.
-anon 43
It seems so easy to accept that Salvation Gospel, if there is no Book of Revelation. I almost did, but the problem was the Baptists can't explain the Book of Revelation that well. . . If the good goes to heaven and the bad goes to hell, why on earth does the Christ needs to go back for the judgment day? . . . An ex-WCG pastor turned baptist, once told a man whose wife had miscarriage that their baby is now in hell. Aren't that encouraging to be an ex-WCG?
ReplyDeleteDave Pack is a brilliant man. The problem? He allows his emotions to get the better of him most of the time. He's excited about the Truth of God so much, that often he ends up looking like a false prophet. BTW he's not a Prophet, he's an Apostle.
"Dave Pack is a brilliant man'
ReplyDeleteIn his own mind and small circle of followers. He'd not last five minutes in the presence of trained theologians and historians.
M.T.Brilliance
It's not Dave's emotions. It's his ego. What you see as emotion is really his anger and frustration wanting better success than he is actually experiencing. Well, to me anyway.
ReplyDelete@Anonymous John: Paul DOES refer to “the gospel of your salvation” in Ephesians 1:13.
ReplyDeleteBut grab a Strong's Concordance (or search the Blue Letter Bible site) and you'll find "the gospel of the Kingdom" is never mentioned by Paul.
The KJV New Testament refers to a "gospel of Christ" (or words to that effect) 15 times - and a "gospel of the Kingdom of God" 4 times.
Just because you appeal to Herbert Armstrong doesn't mean the Bible backs it up.
To anonymous 8:27: Study your own Bible. Pray to God. Do it consistently. Put God first in your life (I still struggle with that one, believe me!)
ReplyDeleteYou'll be surprised at what happens, where God takes you, and the changes that happen in your attitude and in your life over a period of time.
The problem with all the WCG legalism is that it sets the legalists up above Jesus' sacrifice and grace. It also automatically produces attitudes such as those so eloquently described in Isaiah 1.
My advice to anyone still caught up in this legalism is to do a topical study on circumcision, and then read the edict presented by James following the first Jerusalem council. That will provide the best understanding of what the New Covenant does or does not embody that I've ever found.
BB
BB said: You'll be surprised at what happens, where God takes you, and the changes that happen in your attitude and in your life over a period of time.
ReplyDeleteBB why don’t you explain what changes you have experienced and where God has taken you? People need to see some real facts. Have you been involve in the ministry of drawing people into a fellowship with God? Are you involved building a larger congregation of believers? Are you involved in visiting the elderly in nursing homes who as struggling for survival? Are you engaged in building stronger families in the congregation you attend? What church do you attend? Are you conducting bible studies that teach the truth of the bible? We need to have something tangible not just an emotional feeling you experience.
"My advice to anyone still caught up in this legalism is to do a topical study on circumcision, and then read the edict presented by James following the first Jerusalem council. That will provide the best understanding of what the New Covenant does or does not embody that I've ever found."
ReplyDeleteFunny, I'd have not picked that topic to show me the best understanding of the New Covenant and legalism. Sabbath, Holydays, meats, commandments, etc but this would not have crossed my mind as the best topic to show me anything about this.
I had a friend who actually circumcised elephants for the circus. He complained the pay was bad, but the tips were big. Oh well.....
M.T.Incisions
"The Great Apostasy according to Roderick C. Meredith is that these ham-eating, Sunday-keeping, Easter-observing so-called "Christians" are now also openly accepting some other additional unbiblical things such as witchcraft, abortion, and homosexuality."
ReplyDeleteSo America is just now starting to piss off God? Only now? So God had no problem with the whole Indian Killin' and Slavery thing? Of course not, since God/Jesus condones genocide and slavery. Can you say "psychopath?"
Paul R.
"Dave Pack is a brilliant man."
ReplyDeleteWell, he does appear to be some sort of financial genius. Of course, his gain will be your loss.
Paul Ray said...
ReplyDelete"Can you say 'psychopath?'"
Many Americans support such things as ham-eating, Sunday-keeping, Easter-observing, evolution, witchcraft, abortion, homosexuality, etc.
Can you say "utterly depraved psychopaths"?
Yikes!
ReplyDeleteIs someone actually suggesting that someone who had ham and eggs for breakfast is an "utterly depraved psychopath"?!
I can't decide who's nuttier- the armstrongites, or the parade of kooky "Liars for Jesus" on the TBN and Daystar Christian TV networks.
Norm
"Can you say "utterly depraved psychopaths"?"
ReplyDeleteDo you support genocide?
Paul R.
More Irony:
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
'Paul Ray said...'
Paul R.
Paul R. said...
ReplyDelete"Do you support genocide?"
There are many stories in the Bible about people being put to death (executed) for doing evil. Sometimes many people were put to death at once. There was no safety in numbers for the wicked. Below are just a few brief examples.
THE FLOOD
"The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time" (Genesis 6:5, NIV).
"Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence. God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people of the earth had corrupted their ways. So God said to Noah, 'I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them'" (Genesis 6:11-13, NIV).
"Only Noah was left and those with him in the ark" (Genesis 7:23, NIV).
Worldwide sin brought worldwide death.
OTHER EXAMPLES
Sodom and Gomorrah
"Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house. They called to Lot, 'Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them'" (Genesis 19:4-5, NIV).
"Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah--from the LORD out of the heavens" (Genesis 19:24, NIV).
If such people ever surrounded my place and wanted me to come out and play, I'd hope God would do something similar today.
The people in the land of Canaan
"When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God" (Deuteronomy 18:9-13, NIV).
THE FUTURE
"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 13:40-42, NIV).
CONCLUSION
Rather than whine stupidly about how God executes the worst perverts around, people would be well advised not to be one themselves.
P.S. I know an evolutionist who always talks ignorantly and stupidly about "genocide" in the Bible. I noticed that at election time he rushed off to vote in favor of abortion. In his riding there was a famous anti-abortion candidate that he despised, never stopped bad-mouthing and name-calling, and just had to vote against.
Dear Anon,
ReplyDeleteYour support of wholesale genocide is sickening. Like many Christians and Muslims, you demonstrate an appalling lack of basic morality, especially in your support of Noah's Flood, in which countless unborn children were murdered- God's Own Mass Abortion.
Do not come near me, or my family. Not all of us Evilutionists are liberals who abhor guns. I suggest you seek counseling.
Paul R.
Richard said...
ReplyDelete@Anonymous John: Paul DOES refer to “the gospel of your salvation” in Ephesians 1:13.
But grab a Strong's Concordance (or search the Blue Letter Bible site) and you'll find "the gospel of the Kingdom" is never mentioned by Paul.
The KJV New Testament refers to a "gospel of Christ" (or words to that effect) 15 times - and a "gospel of the Kingdom of God" 4 times.
Just because you appeal to Herbert Armstrong doesn't mean the Bible backs it up.
July 14, 2012 12:27 PM"
******
Richard, yes, Paul does refer to a "gospel of your salvation," but he also wrote about the "gospel of peace!"
Romans 10:15 "And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"
Ephesians 6:15 "And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;"
So what? What means it? The gospel is about many things.
You concluded with writing: "...Just because you appeal to Herbert Armstrong doesn't mean the Bible backs it up..."
Where did that comment come from? I saw no appeal to Armstrong in my post. Did you have someone's else's post in mind when you wrote that? If not, please explain how you "see" that "appeal to Herbert Armstrong."
Thanks, in advance...
John
Anonymous M.T.Incisions replied to BB with this:
ReplyDelete"Anonymous [[BB]] said...
"My advice to anyone still caught up in this legalism is to do a topical study on circumcision, and then read the edict presented by James following the first Jerusalem council. That will provide the best understanding of what the New Covenant does or does not embody that I've ever found."
Funny, I'd have not picked that topic to show me the best understanding of the New Covenant and legalism. Sabbath, Holydays, meats, commandments, etc but this would not have crossed my mind as the best topic to show me anything about this.
I had a friend who actually circumcised elephants for the circus. He complained the pay was bad, but the tips were big. Oh well.....
M.T.Incisions
July 14, 2012 3:30 PM
******
BB/M.T. Incisions FWIIW, your inspiring conversation reminded me of an event in my life over several decades ago.
My wife and I asked a doctor, and member of WCG at the time, to circumcise our son on the eighth day after his birth.
It was not a fun experience for us, the parents, but I guess it was better than using flint, or whatever rock, stones, and knives were used back in the days of the likes of Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac. My son, of course, thankfully, recalls nothing of the event, but there was a lot of crying and screaming going on...
Anyway, upon completion of "the work" we offered to pay the doctor some money for the job done. To which he just said: "No, thank you! I just collect the tips."
As said above...FWIIW...so much for an eighth day experience!
John
To the anonymous poster who suggested more sharing: You must be a newbie here. You have to be judicious about sharing any of the blessings of the Christian life on forums. It's true that some folks will be inspired and rejoice over such sharing, but it also often opens the door for others to mock and blaspheme. Like a musician, I enjoy playing in venues where you get positive, inspiring feedback.
ReplyDeleteTo whomever it was that suggested alternative topical studies to circumcision, I think that we just went over your head, spiritually speaking. In ancient Israel, you practically weren't able to even use the bathroom if you were male and were not circumcised! You certainly were not allowed in the temple, weren't allowed to keep the sabbath with the Israelites, or the Feasts and Holy Days, or be observant in any other fashion. It was the pre-linchpin of the entire Mosaic covenant. When James declared that physical circumcision was not to be required of the Gentiles, just about all of the Old Covenant went down with his edict.
BB
Earlier comment: "Calling his latest church the Living Church of God rather than the Church of the Living God is just another indication of Roderick C. Meredith's subtly messed up mind and his desire to be number one."
ReplyDeleteThis is not entirely accurate. While there is little doubt that egomaniacal RCM has a messed up mind, he very much wanted the name to be Church of the Living God, but that name was unavailable, so he chose Living Church of God. I find this to be more appropriate, anyway. "You have a name that you are Living, but are dead." - anon 43