I am sure this guys life was hell growing up, even in the church. Knowing how COG kids treated those not part of the "in" crowd, I can imagine his life in WCG was not a good one either. Those of us in Pasadena have seen this kind of treatment by church youth at Imperial Schools when Apartian's son killed him self with a shotgun blast to the face. He was not treated well by Imperials students and was always an outsider because of his looks.
Renz’s life was dominated by his deformity, his friends and family friends say. But now it is dominated by the unthinkable things police say he did March 14.
Renz, 29, was charged that day with kidnapping, stabbing and killing school librarian Lori Bresnahan and raping a 10-year-old girl. Police said he followed them in the parking lot of Great Northern Mall and attacked them.
Renz was born missing the lower half of his left jaw and part of his cheekbone.
From infancy, fixing Renz’s face was the center of his life and his family’s. A family friend who attended the Worldwide Church of God said he remembers Renz’s parents coming to church when Renz was just a baby.
At 8, he was a computer whiz, Kyser said, and had four computers of his own. But he lived in a cluttered trailer in Cicero that looked like something out of the TV show “Hoarders,” she said. And his parents’ religion kept Renz from celebrating Christmas and birthdays, she said.
Their church, Worldwide Church of God, is a fundamentalist Christian group that doesn't celebrate Christmas and celebrates the Sabbath on Saturday instead of Sunday.
Checkout the entire story here:
These horrific tragedies are the sort of thing that just never make it to the front page of The Worldwide News, or the Church of God News, or whatever other internal periodicals COG splinter groups publish to keep their members informed. I happened to be very close by the Apartian's residence that day when the Apartian boy shot himself, I think it was in the late '80's sometime. The street was cordoned off - Pasadena cops all over the place - just dreadful.
ReplyDeleteLife must have been very grim for this young man, David Renz - though what ultimately happened could have occurred even if he hadn't been brought up in the WCG/COG world. Though it obvious didn't help either.
What must the parents, family and friends of all involved be going through? Especially the little innocent 10-year-old girl.
The tragic truth of the matter is, sometimes the potential for this type of behavior is recognized early on, and such a person is worked with by behavioral science professionals in an effort to prevent what seems inevitable, and in many cases, all that is done for the person is to no avail.
ReplyDeleteI can't think of anything offered by Armstrongism as being particularly therapeutic, however. The odds might have been slanted a bit more in this young man's favor if a better level of counselling had been made available.
The surviving family members and the victims will be in my thoughts and prayers.
BB
Can you imagine such a lad being accepted to Ambassador College as a candidate for the ministry?
ReplyDeleteIt's all about image and appearances.
Byker Bob wrote: "The tragic truth of the matter is, sometimes the potential for this type of behavior is recognized early on, and such a person is worked with by behavioral science professionals in an effort to prevent what seems inevitable, and in many cases, all that is done for the person is to no avail."
ReplyDeleteSo true. As I understand, the young man who carried out the Newtown massacre at the Sandy Hook school last December - Adam Lanza - fell into such a category. He had numerous overlapping mental disorders, yet was very intelligent, but because of his lack of social skills apparently just couldn't find enough ways to express his innate strengths constructively. No amount of professional intervention can stop certain things from happening, as sad a reality as that may be.
And the rest is history.
I'm not too sure we will ever be able to eliminate such tragedies, because so many of them have very powerful genetic components to them - both physical and psychological in nature. The complexities involved must be enormous. Just imagine what it would be like to grow up with such an obvious physical deformity such as David Renz had - and the inevitable social rejection that comes with it, which I'm sure would lead to a build-up of such inner hurt and rage that normal folks just couldn't possibly comprehend.
Not trying to justify Renz's awful crimes - but how would we have reacted given his exact circumstances from birth that he had absolutely no control over whatsoever, and the sense of hopelessness that no doubt he had to deal with from a very early age. And no amount of computer skills, no matter how impressive, could compensate for all the losses in his tragic life. And what future will he now face? Prison, or being institutionalized, most likely.
This story makes me so sad.
my only prob with all of this is the tragedy focuses so much on the church and so little on the actions. Maybe the link had more information about that, however, Sandusky was not linked to a church, nor was the killer at Newtown, they are never called satanists or whatever, although the two in Columbine were labeled for their dabbling in websites, they were found fault because their families were fundamentalist. Do we hear much about when an agnostic or athiest does something so horrible? I am not in anyway excusing the church here, however, the link in this case is rather unfair. A murderer is a murderer and so on. Sorry folks, I just dont get why the connection here really matters to the arguements at hand.
ReplyDelete"the link in this case is rather unfair. A murderer is a murderer and so on."
ReplyDeleteActually, I don't think the church had anything to do with his crimes necessarily.
To me, this is another case study into how practicing a certain religion or belonging to a certain church (the One True Church), with all of its supernatural promises of transformation, conversion, god working with you, god making up where you lack, the power of god this, the power of god that, is all meaningless and empty. It's a nice thought, and as Albert keeps saying, there might be a placebo effect, but there's nothing real about it and there's no power or help to be found in any of it.
At the end of the day, no one has "the holy spirit," no one is "converted," no one is transformed, there isn't any god making up the difference where you lack, there isn't any help at all. There is no "new man" or "old man" there's just a man. A man is still just a regular man. A murderer is still just a regular murderer. And god and the holy spirit are powerless and irrelevant. Belonging to a church is irrelevant, even if it's the "One True Church."
The bible makes a lot of promises and the church repeats these promises over and over, but none of it ever made any difference in my life. I gave it more than a fair shot for many decades. None of it made any difference in David Renz's life either. The "old man" is the only man you're ever going to be. Whatever power the "old man" had is the only power you're ever going to have. You can resolve to be the best "old man" that you can be, and you can better yourself, but it's you doing it, not god.
Armstrongist churches have the power to abuse, but that's about the extent of it. If it turns out that there really is a god, Armstrongism sure doesn't help you find him. So, I think you're better off on your own. You can sidestep the abuse, skip all the bullshit, and still be the same guy, except with a lot less mental clutter.
My thesis is that the COGs are a sample drawn from the population with a slight bias toward weak and odd people. (If you thought you were okay to begin with, why would you go looking for a church to #@%& with your mind?) I would expect roughly the same proportion of pedophiles, murderers, divorces, etc., as would be found in the rest of the population. I expect that "god" working in these people's lives will have no measurable effect upon them.
I feel sorry for this guy that the church promised him a bunch of help and delivered nothing. I expect he received just as much abuse from church members as non-church members. And I feel sorry for his victims who probably didn't deserve what they received from him. Sometimes life hands you shitty circumstances, and you're unable to deal with it. There's no point in even mentioning "god" in this context.
Horrible, I read some of the comments and apparently what he did to the little girl was so awful it made the doctors cry and she had to have multiple corrective surgeries. Also the facial disfigurement he suffered was hereditary, and the father also had it but not so severely, also his brother and sister inherited it. I wonder why people with obviously dominant terrible genetic conditions have so many children? One could say the survival of the fittest is against such a person reproducing, hence he did not find a normal woman interested in him.....but on the other hand there are plenty of handicapped and deformed people who are very successful in life and have great personalities too which enables them to live happy and normal lives. Probably being in WCG was no help.
ReplyDeleteSure we don't need trials anymore. The Constitution is dead and people are guilty until proven innocent.
ReplyDeleteLet's just let a news story determine for us whether someone is guilty or not.
Let's talk about his guilt on blogs too.
After all who needs a stinking trial anymore?
DB
ReplyDelete"Can you imagine such a lad being accepted to Ambassador College as a candidate for the ministry?
It's all about image and appearances."
Try sticking to the topic instead of always shooting off into the woods in generalizations about "Armstrongists"
That's a very sad and tragic story. Those who do not meet societal norms for "looks", the boy is obviously intelligent, can take a toll on self worth and esteem for sure. I am sure he had to endure the cruel comments and looks of his peers and others for years.
ReplyDeleteI recall when I worked as a student in Church administration, it was when local church choirs had to send a picture of the choir to Church Ad. One picture had an obviously handicapped choir member and I was told the director was being told they could not be in the choir because of some stupid OT verse about no deformed in the assembly or whatever dumbass thing it said.
I told him that was the most stupid thing I have ever heard and hoped no one would really be that stupid. Never heard what happened.
If anyone had said anything to my folks about my brother at church (blind, deaf and can't speak,) there would have been hell to pay. It never came up. Dave Pack did tell my sister once that my crying baby on the floor neices were demon possessed because they were crying during his sermon and interrupting him. Shit for brains comment if I ever heard one.
Had I been there, he'd not say that again and would have told him they were crying because of what he was trying badly to explain and the length of time he was trying to do it in. I don't think my dad heard that story either and would have taken care of business.
People in our culture dont have the skills to see the person behind the mask, whether it is a pretty one or deformed in some way. The person is behind the face. The real child is behind the deformity and the real person behind any outward circumstances that they get stuck with in life.
I have never heard or read a story here where some guy does something and then they say, "he was brought up in the Faith Baptist Church." And trust me, the Bob Jones Baptist types and the other 300 baptist churches here in Greenville have pumped out their share of crazy and marginalized people who do all sorts of things in life.
Thanks for that Pork.
ReplyDeleteWhile we mourn and grieve over the results of this crime, it starts way back with cruel rejection, scorn and mocking. The real kid is behind the mask, just like the real man is behind what some think is the deformity of "minister." Same thing. Make fun of the mask or face and never get to see the being being behind it.
My brother is blind, deaf and can't speak. Sometimes I look at him and wonder who he really is in there but all the lines are down. He seems happy at least for the world he lives in in his mind.
Dave Pack once told my sis my baby neice's crying was disturbing his sermon and she was demon possessed. What an ass. She was crying because of his message and the length of time it took him to get to the point no doubt. My brother could sit quietly in church but had the Dave ever said anything about him, there would have been hell to pay from my dad and myself. My dad told Dave once to get off the men at club's backs for not learning their scripture cards he passes out. Dad told him they worked all week and not to make a big deal out of it Dave told dad to sit down and he'd see him in the hall. Dad said, "no you won't." lol Love ya dad!
Anyway, I don't see crimes here in Greenville that add, "They grew up in the Trinity Faith Holy Baptist Church," which screws up dozens of kids every year. Just an observations. I suppose if a Bob Joneser here in Greenville, at age 200 did something, they'd harken back to that mid life crisis factory of a college.
Rejection and marginalization takes it's toll on a kid a handicapp or deformity. The pretty people don't see through the veneer to the person. It's just how stupid people are.
As a child, and going to the state mental hospital , as they calle it then, to see my brother every week, I saw every human deformity and mental abbaration possible I believe by the time I was 18. The drool, the petting, the masturbating, the display as well as the hugging and "please pay attention to me," a human with a handicapp can muster. One kid told me every week, "It's my birthday!"
We can't unring this kids bell but next time you are around a person that is less than perfect, give them a hug and some attention instead of a sneer, a wisecrack and one more rejection they can store up to explode with.
You might try to get to know your local "ministurd" past or present, as well if he lets ya. I not, you tried.
ReplyDeleteI don't particularly care for the title of this thread. Just hits a nerve I suppose.
The issues that build up in any handicapped person after years of being made fun of, rejection and marginalization are complicated. One can put the name of any church into any awful event implying the handicapped person is the product of and the crime the results of "that church." This is bullshit.
Handicapped or deformed kids of Jewish upbringing don't get labeled as not keeping Christmas etc as if that was the cause. "They didn't get to eat Pork seems to be at the heard of why Johnny, who has Downs syndrome, spina bifida did this horrible thing."
Handicapped people, especiall children growing up get a boat load of rejection, name calling , snickers and sneers and poked fun of in front of and behind their backs. It takes a toll.
I'll probably say too much but when you have access or experience to be around such a one, who didn't ask for it either, try a kind word, a touch or a hug. Find out who is behind the physical mask of deformity or handicap. You really don't have to shout louder when someone can't see or has a deformed jaw.
David Renz , and he did terrible wrong, didn't blow overnight. It was, in my experience, the drip, drip drip of rejection, scorn and ridicule of a sensitive human being (and all aren't that sensitive) who lost it.
The victims simply were in the wrong place at the wrong time which is tragic.
For the most part, the ministry of the WCG did not really care about the interests of the people of the church: Their job was to continue to contribute to the giant cash machine for the benefit of Herbert Armstrong.
ReplyDeleteIn such an environment, the church does not exist to help the poor, the disadvantaged, those who need help: They are neglected.
Suppose, just suppose, the local ministers saw this lad and took it upon themselves to help the family: Gave the parents encouragement, sought help to get their house in order (or mobile home). Presume that there was a great deal of love and care given to the young man who was disfigured. What if he was overwhelmed with love from the ministry and congregation. Do you suppose the picture might have been different in the end?
And suppose that the ministers had also known about mental disorders and could connect the family to get help for their child.
There is a group of doctors who have instituted a program to help disfigured children through reconstructive surgery. Suppose the ministry was so loving that they had gotten help from surgeons willing to donate their time and skills to fix the problems.
The point is that from personal experience, the church never did care about anything but appearances. They did not want to get their hands dirty. It isn't fun to be with unattractive people.
The ministers needed to maintain their image.
This is a terrible thing. There are many factors involved. There may be mental illness. There may have been a sense of isolation.
The involvement of the ACoG in all this is that it wasn't involved except to use its authority to push laws and rules on people and collect money.
So sorry, we're too busy doing the very Work of the Almighty Powerful God -- work out your own problems.
Could the church have made a difference?
We'll never know because they didn't even try.
Head Usher wrote: "The bible makes a lot of promises and the church repeats these promises over and over, but none of it ever made any difference in my life. I gave it more than a fair shot for many decades."
ReplyDeleteAt the end of the day, this will prove to be the experience of probably 99% of those who were ever involved with WCGism or other variations of it. It's just that some have the guts to acknowledge it, both to themselves and others, and some don't. Many folks left in the COG splinters are in the latter category - they no it's a bunch of metaphysical bunk, but they remain for many reasons - to keep fragile marriages and families intact, fear of leaving the phony security of supernaturalism, fear of losing the social support of the COG culture, intellectual dishonesty and/or laziness, etc. But Head Usher makes a very penetrating comment: if an objectively REAL deity was truly involved with the COG's, then why don't we see REAL intervention of the kind that actually would transform and radically improve human lives in very apparent, tangible ways? For example, of all the prayer requests that emanate out of COGdom for sick members, how many are ever answered? How many actual "healings" are there? If there were ANY they'd be proclaimed with such force you couldn't contain the excitement it would generate in current members. But decade after decade after decade...and nothing happens.
"By their fruits you shall know them."
This makes me very aware of the sad reality that in our culture, in general, there's a view of others whose physical appearance needs to be "up to snuff" in order to be accepted as being on equal footing as the rest.
ReplyDeleteIt reminds me of Velvet's travails, when awhile back she struggled for acceptance into a group and was rejected for reasons of physical appearance(or so she said, and I have no reason to doubt that). Thankfully, she came through the difficult struggle without physically harming anyone, and I applaud her for that because it's an indication of inner strength.
HEADLINE NEWS (as posted in "Banned" in - 31 A.D.)
ReplyDeleteCULT LEADER COMMITS MURDER AND THEN KILLS SELF
Judas, a leader in the Jesus cult, was paid a sum of 30 pieces of silver in exchange for arranging the murder of Jesus.
In a post-psychotic rage, Judas then killed himself. It had been rumored that Judas was under an audit for missing funds from the cult's treasury.
The cult is in current disarray and its members are in high states of disillusionment and depression. Many are said to have just walked away from the cult completely.
COMMENTS (31A.D) :
Doug Becker: This is what happens in corporate hierarchies. Jesus was a sociopath.
Velvet: We never had a Jesus in Canada
Dennis Diehl : I knew and worked with Judas. Oftentimes a great guy. One has to wonder how much effect on Judas there was on not being able to celebrate Christmas growing up and being like the other Jewish kids.
Steve Kissack: Thats what they get for being involved in religion, both Judas and Jesus both. Serves them right!
Leonardo: Supernaturalistic crap, all of it.
Byker Bob: Can you imagine Judas at Ambassador and becoming a minister?. Makes Pack look like Mother Theresa. Nonetheless, I will be praying for all the parties involved.
Joe Moeller: Would love to see Judas pull that kind of crap up here in my neck of the woods. Suicide would be the easy way out for that jackoff up here in Wyoming.
Joe Moeller
Cody, WY
COMMENTS (31A.D) :
ReplyDeleteDouglas Becker: This is what happens in corporate hierarchies. The Pharisees were a bunch of psychopaths -- they played games with Judas' head and then abandoned him.
We like to think that "civilized" modern man is much more egalitarian than we really are. Somebody with a facial deformity will not have any friends in high school, and after that it will greatly narrow who will consider him employable.
ReplyDeleteOur "culture" is a very segmented one. It's made up of many subcultures. If you start dating a girl and it turns out everyone in her circle of friends drives BMWs and Mercedes, and you drive a Toyota Celica, don't be too surprised if things don't work out. Hearing people won't hang with the deaf for long. The extroverts don't want to be seen with the computer nerds. Don't expect to befriend the guy with the tattoo sleeves if you're clean-cut with an oxford button-down and khakis. The guy in the wheelchair is going to have to have a personality that is much larger than life to have many friends who aren't disabled.
You see all this stratification begin in earnest around 4th or 5th grade. Once you get to college or the workforce things start to loosen up a little, but the human race tends to be pretty impatient, intolerant, and shallow. The skills, values, and qualities you have or don't have will produce a huge effect on who you can or can't socialize with.
Oh, well, you know, if a WCG minister had come and anointed him so he was completely healed and not disfigured -- and he became a handsome man -- this would never have happened and he could have had a successful career as support for a major misfortune 500 Corporation which rips off people.
ReplyDeleteThe church would have then bragged about his healing to induce hundreds of more people into the cult in hopes they could have their problems solved too -- and then leave when nothing much occurred to help them personally.
No wait.
That would be the Seventies.
You see all this stratification begin in earnest around 4th or 5th grade. Once you get to college or the workforce things start to loosen up a little,
ReplyDeleteOr, after being bullied mercilessly in middle school, they get to high school, discover weapons and kill off the other kids and maybe a teacher or two.
Add a layer of cult interference and it does absolutely nothing to help.
Joe, you forgot to add one more summary comment:
ReplyDeleteJoe Moeller: Why, up on the ranch here in Wyoming, where all us men are real Marlboro MEN (and the women are too), these wimps couldn't last a day! Now, where's my LP of Frankie Laine singing "I Believe!" I feel a tear coming in. On the other hand, perhaps Leonardo may be right after all, maybe all this fundamentalism IS a bunch of supernaturalistic crap after all! Oh, I HATE it when he makes me THINK, so I best get ready for another UCG service to lull my brain back into its catatonic state for another week."
All in good fun, Cowboy Joe, all in good fun!
I know AC preferred to have good looking, tall men who could speak well so they would make good ministers. They advised skinny men to do weight lifting. Seems like most of them had no trouble gaining weight in later life, but not from exercise. Yes there was an Ambassador image. The women were not supposed to get too fat either, we were told "if you don't have the will power to lose weight, can you do anything else?". Yes there was a great emphasis on physical appearance, but then we were "Ambassadors" haha. I would have to say that life in general prefers good looking people too, so it is not just AC.
ReplyDeleteBut this guy was smart apparently, at least he had something to work with. Oh well, I do believe being in the Church might twist many peoples sex drive.
Anonymous 9:45, I couldn't agree with you more. I have a blind friend of mine I've known for many years now. We were both baptized on the same day in the same horse-trough back in Michigan, and still keep in occasional contact with each other via telephone.
ReplyDeleteHe can tell you stories about discrimination against the blind in general, as well as out at AC and in the WCG. That's probably at least one major reason why handicapped folks have a far lower life expectancy than do "normal" people.
Leonardo: (in regards to your comment above).
ReplyDeleteRFLOL!
Thanks for the laugh! You made my morning! Yes indeed, all in good fun!
Luv,
Joe Moeller
Cody, WY
Anonymous 9:55, a very intelligent guy I used to work with back in my days in the telecommunication industry had a saying he would oft quote. At first I thought it too simplistic, but the longer I live, the more accurate I see it is as a metaphor of this life, especially life in modern America:
ReplyDelete"Life is little more than one big beauty pageant."
Amen, Brother John, AMEN!!
I knew at least one fellow on the old AC admissions committee who told me that they were always more favorably inclined to nice-looking gals than the rather normal looking ones. I also knew most of the Young Ambassadors at one time or another when they were in their heyday, and all I can say is that singing/dancing talent and Hollywood good looks aren't necessarily a decent substitute for sound, stable character! And I guess you'll just have to trust me on that assessment!!
COMMENTS (31A.D) :
ReplyDelete(nice analogy Joe)
This is what happens when you need a crazy Jew story in the NT to make Jesus death look like the Jews were responsible and not the Romans. (Jews are only annoying. Romans can kill you.) Same as "let his blood be upon us and upon our children.." Nice touch!
Poor kid, so screwed up! But even Garner Ted had issues with the law because he was a pervert like his pee pee fixated daddy Herbie, and Dave Pack's son is a convicted cocaine trafficker like .....?? (it sure would explain the mania). COG has rotten fruit, but we can forgive them even though they can't forgive anyone else because they are soooo perfect!, yeah right. Bunch of delusional perverts have corruption issues.
ReplyDeleteWay to go, Gary. Equate clearly having a psychotic break and committing criminal acts. with not celebrating Christmas and keeping the Sabbath.
ReplyDeleteSo, you want visitors to this blog to think that being born and raised in the Church is THE ONLY explanation for why those Renz CHOSE to commit criminal acts later on in his life.
Charming.
So, when are they going to come knocking at my door, to arrest me for shooting up some institution? Because I'm a pacifist (as the Church instructed us to be), I would not even TOUCH a weapon, let alone own one, never mind commit a crime with one.
Oh, but the Church teaching us not to have, carry, or use weapons, except in very rare circumstances, has NOTHING to do with how the Church (in your opinion) made Renz into a criminal. You're reaching way too far, Gary, and the only one whose credibility you're blowing here, is your own.
(Here's how it worked, when I was growing up in rural British Columbia: if you lived in a rural area, you were allowed ONE low-powered hunting rifle, as long you owned all the right licences for it AND you could prove you used it ONLY to provide food for your family.)
And comparing Renz' acts to Apartian's son committing suicide is an insult to Apartian's son, and does not even come close to supporting your wholly inappropriate, and totally wrong-headed theory.
" recall when I worked as a student in Church administration, it was when local church choirs had to send a picture of the choir to Church Ad. One picture had an obviously handicapped choir member and I was told the director was being told they could not be in the choir because of some stupid OT verse about no deformed in the assembly or whatever dumbass thing it said.
ReplyDeleteI told him that was the most stupid thing I have ever heard and hoped no one would really be that stupid. Never heard what happened."
That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard too, Dennis, and I'm glad you told this yahoo at HQ that. I sang in the YES choir all the time, and upon meeting me, it's fairly obvious to even the least observant, that I am a person with (multiple) disabilities.
When I was growing up, however, it was the worldly children in the public school system who tormented me for that. I was NEVER mistreated by any of the other children in the Victoria congregation, because of how I looked; to everyone else, I was just another one of the gaggle of kids running around the Union Hall.
The terp (interpreter for the Deaf) often performed with the Festival Choir in Victoria, as well. Now that was a sight to see, let me tell you!
"It reminds me of Velvet's travails, when awhile back she struggled for acceptance into a group and was rejected for reasons of physical appearance(or so she said, and I have no reason to doubt that)."
ReplyDeleteHello, Russell, I was wondering when you were going to show up again. How's the Baptist thing working out for you?
What Russell refers to is a blog I started (and abandoned), long before I ever encountered Shadows of WCG, trying to get some answers/justice, out of a group that DID mistreat me because of my appearance...the childrens' group of the Freemasons that my father was involved with (at a time when being a Mason was banned by the Church -- of course my father never told my mother or I this, we were just instructed to never tell any Church members what we were involved with -- I only discovered the truth about Masonry after I joined Shadows.
But it illustrates my point perfectly: a worldly, pagan group (we, all girls, had to parade around in white robes and make vain repetitions of passages that were added to the book of Job), was the the one that discriminated against me the most harshly...whereas the Church when I was growing up, was my refuge from same.
Don't feel too badly for me getting trashtalk from the pagans, though; God saw to it that I was taken from their midst in just under a year.
Earth to Velvet. Earth to Velvet. If you had read the article you would see that the ARTICLE made the statement about Christmas and birthdays, not me. Take chill pill and relax. Sheesh!
ReplyDeleteYou cant honesty expect Velvet to read everything here. She has had these knee jerk reactions before and made a fool of herself. I guess that is what Canadian perfectionism does to you. Being perfect is hard.
ReplyDeleteIt appears to me MANY people here don't carefully read the comments. This is clearly in evidence by all the reactionary comments that completely miss the point of the comments they're so impulsive to comment upon!
ReplyDelete"He who answers a matter BEFORE he hears it, it is folly and shame to him." (Prov. 18:13)
Epic post Joe Moeller!
ReplyDeleteRE: some of Velvet's comments, from my memory the Church was not pacifist. Ok officially people were not allowed to be in the military -- you know 'this world is not your world etc.', but at the same time the church had very right wing political beliefs. Such as saying America was too weak to win the Vietnam war, and they should show more strength. Also the United Nations was called toothless and powerless. Strongmen were always admired, and Israel was much admired after the Israeli-Arab wars. What happened after the whole thing fell apart, many church members and their children joined the military, or at least became very supportive of 'our troups'. Quite a mixed message.
ReplyDeleteWhat the hell is wrong with people nowadays!!!???
ReplyDeleteI'm sick and tired hearing of people for whatever reasons taking a gun and robbing someone or raping someone or killing someone or doing all three!!!
Seriously I don't give a flying fuck that they were deformed or an immigrant or homeless or jobless or whatever!
So they had NO OTHER CHOICE except to hurt someone else or take someone's life away?!?!
Don't get me wrong. I'm not without sympathy to this guy and others who have issues or problems they're dealing with. But who the hell doesn't?!?! You know what I mean? I don't see others going around avenging every itty bitty wrong that's befallen them throughout life!
Don't they get it?!?! Guns and violence never were, never are and never will be the answer!
" If you had read the article you would see that the ARTICLE made the statement about Christmas and birthdays, not me."
ReplyDeletePerhaps I was unclear. I was referring to YOUR statement:
"I am sure this guys life was hell growing up, even in the church. Knowing how COG kids treated those not part of the "in" crowd, I can imagine his life in WCG was not a good one either. Those of us in Pasadena have seen this kind of treatment by church youth at Imperial Schools when Apartian's son killed him self with a shotgun blast to the face. He was not treated well by Imperials students and was always an outsider because of his looks."
I realize it was the newspaper article that mentioned not keeping Christmas and keeping the Sabbath. You're the one drawing the connection between Renz' crimes and growing up in the Church. That is what I disagree with. If I (and several others on this thread, apparently), have not made that clear enough, I'm not sure what else I can say.
"but at the same time the church had very right wing political beliefs. Such as saying America was too weak to win the Vietnam war, and they should show more strength. Also the United Nations was called toothless and powerless. Strongmen were always admired, and Israel was much admired after the Israeli-Arab wars. What happened after the whole thing fell apart, many church members and their children joined the military, or at least became very supportive of 'our troups'. Quite a mixed message."
ReplyDeleteMaybe that was the case in the US, but up here, I would say we were probably dead-centre in our political beliefs. The pacifism was probably also enhanced by the fact that there was a percentage of ex-Mennonite members in the Church up here, as well. But, no, I never heard anything like the comment above.
The UN was spoken well of, as far as I remember, because it was trying to prevent (at that time) the EU from becoming a consolidated superpower.
Anon wrote,
ReplyDelete"I know AC preferred to have good looking, tall men who could speak well so they would make good ministers. They advised skinny men to do weight lifting."
Davey Pack was quite thin, and wound up with "Ambassador skinny man's syndrome", which led to him being a braggart and wearer of shorts 3 sizes too small so everyone could see he really did have male genitalia.
But I'm wondering- Do the ladies on Joe Moeller's "Triple UCG Ranch" have lumps in the throat from listening to that cornball Frankie Laine song, or because they are Marlboro Men in drag?
-Norm
Leo said:
ReplyDeleteBut Head Usher makes a very penetrating comment: if an objectively REAL deity was truly involved with the COG's, then why don't we see REAL intervention of the kind that actually would transform and radically improve human lives in very apparent, tangible ways? For example, of all the prayer requests that emanate out of COGdom for sick members, how many are ever answered? How many actual "healings" are there? If there were ANY they'd be proclaimed with such force you couldn't contain the excitement it would generate in current members. But decade after decade after decade...and nothing happens
When objective real life people are actively involved in resolving the problems that plague humanity today why don’t we see people with high degree of excitement joining hands with them in bringing about changes necessary to solve these problems? It looks like people expect solutions without making any contribution to making it happen. Something to think about!
"Maybe that was the case in the US, but up here, I would say we were probably dead-centre in our political beliefs."
ReplyDeleteIt certainly was the case in Pasadena that we were right of center. We were supposed to be pacifists which meant, NO to military service. But it also meant YES for Israeli Jews (Jacob) kicking some Arab (Esau) ass. Oh, almost forgot, YES to the Philadelphia Era (brotherly love) (whatever that means). Which one of these things is not like the others? Which one of these things does not belong? (Church answer: They're all the same, they all belong).
Now of course, centrist politics in the US has come to mean at least a tentative yes to gay rights, abortion, and the creep of socialism in all of its forms. That puts churchy folks of many persuasions very far to the right, even though they've just stayed put and the rest of the world has moved around them. JFK would be right of center today even though he was left-wing in 1960.
Given that all the commonwealth countries are noticeably to the left of the US, your centrist political leanings in Canada must be very far to the left of ours. We're still trailing behind you, but the powers that be are trying to get us caught up with you guys ASAP.
As for me, I'm a huge lefty fiscally (balance the budget, please???) (don't know why that's on the liberal agenda and not the conservative agenda in the US). Socially, I'm conservative in that I'm against abortion, so I wouldn't want a baby I fathered to be aborted. I'm against socialism because I believe it's incentives are economically perverse and socially pateralistic, but recognize its inevitability in that as the population continues to grow individual rights and privacy rights will all be lost. Rugged individualism is going to become very not okay in a world of 20 billion people. Marijuana, gay rights, etc, doesn't affect me, so everyone else can figure out what they want there. Oh, yeah, military service is okay, but watch out lest you get sent to a war zone and come back with a huge case of PTSD that incapacitates you for the rest of your life.
Velvet, how in the world did the British Columbia authorities expect you to get by with "ONE low-powered hunting rifle," even if you used it "ONLY to provide food for your family"?
ReplyDeleteA person needs target arms too: separate shotguns for trap and skeet, at least one .22 rimfire target gun, a .22 or 6mm centerfire for bench-rest shooting, and a .308 or larger for long-range target competition.
To say nothing of harvesting game. For that a person needs a long-range waterfowl shotgun (which can do double duty on wild turkeys) and a light open-choked gun for upland birds. For deer hunting at short range in bad weather an iron-sighted .30-30 or equivalent will do, but for long range work in the mountains or out on the plains an accurate long-range gun like a .270 or 7mm-08 with a scope sight is required. For moose and elk a larger caliber such as .35 Whelen or .338 Winchester is far better.
No wonder so many British Columbia citizens just give up on meat and turn to vegetarianism.
Haydn N. DeForrest
"For example, of all the prayer requests that emanate out of COGdom for sick members, how many are ever answered?"
ReplyDeleteI personally know of two. Boasting of such things invites trouble.
"Now of course, centrist politics in the US has come to mean at least a tentative yes to gay rights, abortion, and the creep of socialism in all of its forms."
ReplyDeleteYikes! That wasn't what I meant by members in Canada tending to be centrist, and your list certainly doesn't describe "centrist politics" in Canada in the 1980s!
"separate shotguns for trap and skeet, at least one .22 rimfire target gun, a .22 or 6mm centerfire for bench-rest shooting, and a .308 or larger for long-range target competition"
ReplyDelete...none of which have any bearing on, or use for, hunting moose, elk, or deer.
"To say nothing of harvesting game."
ReplyDeleteOh, I've no doubt there were members who had that kind of firepower. They just had to prove all of that was being used for the purposes you stated, and that all of their paperwork (and storage of the weapons) complied with the laws of the land.
We're not talking people who lived Chilkotin or anything here, we lived on Vancouver Island (and I don't think the members in Vancouver did much hunting LOL).
That said, the ministers never checked up on us. I know of at least one case where a member owned an illegal revolver, purchased from a money-laundering group.
The following point was probably not lost on ACOG ministers, and that is that the Second Amendment was not intended to preserve hunting rights. It was to make sure that free citizens could protect themselves against tyrrany.
ReplyDeleteIn other words, people like your stereotypical ACOG minister!
BB
Byker Bob wrote, "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
ReplyDeletePlease link to proof of this statement (and please do not use the Thomas Jefferson misattribution which has been commonly and wrongly used by Christians, Tea-Partiers, and NRA supporters, lately.)
I hope BB was joking when he insinuated the Second Amendment gives the right to shoot "people like your stereotypical ACOG minister!"
Bob is an American professing Christian, Anon; thus his bloodthirsty, violent, mindset.
ReplyDelete