Did you know that Philadelphia Church of God ministers are gifts from
Seek counsel from God’s ministry.
We certainly need to take our family problems and concerns to God in prayer. But if you ask God for help, don’t overlook the fact that He may want to answer you through one of His ministers.
The ministry is a gift from Christ to help perfect you and build up the Church (Ephesians 4:11-16). Use that gift! Failing to do so can provide problems with the nourishment they need to grow. “Where no counsel is, the people fall,” Proverbs 11:14 warns.
Yeah right. As if any member of the PCG needs to go in and counsel with an untrained twit that is 20 years younger than they are. Not a single "minister" has ever had REAL training in counseling through a licensed program. PCG's training methods consist of Gerald laying down the law and the stooges enforcing it.
Why would a PCG member go the minister anyway considering the track record the PCG has in destroying families, marriages and lives!
Don’t fear asking for help. We all tend to harbor pride that makes us reluctant to approach the ministry. We don’t want to “admit failure.” Men in particular can resist wanting to reveal anything that looks like a mistake. Naturally we don’t want our sins to be discovered (John 3:19-20).Members should be afraid to ask for help! The ministry in the PCG holds peoples counseling sessions and the information shared against them whenever is expedient for PCG's purpose.
Stamp out that pride. “He that covereth his sins shall not prosper,” says Proverbs 28:13. That issue may well need the light of exposure if it is to have a chance of being overcome. Simply being “thought well of” isn’t worth not taking action.
Men especially had better beware what they share. If they have any aspirations for moving up and being used in the church; that depends on what they share. If the man can't keep his household in line how will he rule a church?
PCG families have been torn asunder by Gerald Flurry's asinine laws and rules. Children are leaving the cult in droves, marriages are crumbling, women are not being submissive, which all result in a lack of faith which is causing the huge drop in income.
It's not just a "few" members, it is a LOT! If you do not rectify the situation NOW you will Not make it into the Kingdom and will be dead for all eternity.
“Now please! Please, dear brethren, heed this! Many of you are not living the kind of family life that is preparing you for God’s Kingdom. And if you don’t repent, and reorder your whole family life, you simply won’t make it into the Kingdom! I mean that! It is life and death for all eternity!”
If your family is having trouble, don’t put on a front with the ministers of Christ. God already knows the problem anyway (Psalm 69:5). God’s ministers aren’t going to judge, condemn, gloat or belittle. They are only there to help. They know that every one of us still has human nature we are trying to overcome. Their patience and understanding will surprise you.
So once again you the miserable weak brethren cannot get things right. You never will be able to measure up to the lofty standards that Gerald has set for you. God's righteous perfect ministers have attained that glory in order to train you up from your wickedness.
Works every time. Enough members in the past have stories about ministerial arrogance and stupidity in all things "counseling" that they voted with their feet. This is damage control, but you can't unring a bell.
ReplyDeleteI'd say Flurry is trying to regain lost forever ground. Too late. Can a leopard change it's spots. Nope....
VOTING WITH YOUR FEET BRETHREN, IS THE ONLY VOTE THEY UNDERSTAND
When you treat others like shit, as Dave Pack and Gerald Flurry do (In Christ's name of course) , promote your views as THE views, act more insiteful than and more chosen than others, flaunting arrogance and egocentric ideas, intelligent folk vote with their feet and there is nothing you can do about it.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe any two men on earth more than Flurry and Pack, have misrepresented themselves and the meaning and intent of scripture than themselves.
Ok, maybe Weinland and about 10,000 others...
Flurry must be realizing that years of abuse have dwindled him down to dangerous territory and wants to make up. Too late. You can't unring these bells of self serving foolishness.
The comments below have not been moderated.
ReplyDelete"God’s ministers aren’t going to judge, condemn, gloat or belittle."
ReplyDeleteHa. Apart from the ridiculous assertion that Gerry's Gestapo are "God's ministers," the assertion that they aren't going to judge, condemn, gloat or belittle is a blatant and intentional lie.
The nerve of these people is beyond the pale.
G Flurry wrote: "...“Now please! Please, dear brethren, heed this! Many of you are not living the kind of family life that is preparing you for God’s Kingdom. And if you don’t repent, and reorder your whole family life, you simply won’t make it into the Kingdom! I mean that! It is life and death for all eternity!”
ReplyDeleteIf your family is having trouble, don’t put on a front with the ministers of Christ. God already knows the problem anyway (Psalm 69:5). God’s ministers aren’t going to judge, condemn, gloat or belittle. They are only there to help. They know that every one of us still has human nature we are trying to overcome. Their patience and understanding will surprise you..."
That's nothing but the same old FEAR RELIGION and earning one's salvation by works of SELF. He did write: "...And if you don’t repent, and reorder your whole family life, you simply won’t make it into the Kingdom!..."
That sounds like one is earning one's way, doesn't it? Well, there is no "self" in salvation, and if one isn't saved by grace, then one will live, die and remain in the grave forever. Period!
And Flury says that his ministers: "...know that every one of us still has human nature we are trying to overcome..."
Well, they show their ignorance as they do not believe that human nature is "very good." Huh?
"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good..." Genesis 1:31
Maybe GFlurry meant "carnal nature?" No, I suspect he nor his ministers know the difference.
Besides what is GFlury's ministers doing with marriage counseling? They're supposed to be ministers, not marriage counselors. Plus, if God's Spirit isn't helping one or both mates, what is someone professing to be a marriage counseler going to do? Just where is God in that picture?
Does one have marriage problems? I suggest: go visit with a marriage counselor.
Got financial problems? Go visit a banker, financial people trained in that field.
Have a problem with alcohol? Join AA!
Is one mate battering another? Call the police!
The point is: whatever the problem, never consult a minister of God, who is supposed to be knowledgeable about the Word of God. Seek out licensed people who have been trained to help in those various problem areas of life.
If God's Spirit is guiding and directing one's life, there will be some good fruit (Galatians 5:22-23) of God present. It's not the fruit of Joe, of Lucy, of Mike. It's the fruit OF GOD.
The evil fruits (Romans 1:29-31; Gal 5:19-21) are the fruit of god: Satan. It's all part of carnal nature, not very good human nature (Gen 1:31).
GFlurry's ministers help anybody? First, learn the difference between very good human nature and carnal nature, then recommend the people seek out professional counseling for their problems.
If God and His Spirit are involved it will be obvious in their lives, because by their fruit one will know them...
John
The absolute worst thing you can do in the PCG is talk to the ministry. Want proof? Go to the Exit and Support Network site and read all the horror stories. Any information, real or distorted, that the ministers get will be held against you and used as a pretext to nose into and _control_ EVERY tiny aspect of your life. You will be on the sidelines watching you life being run by idiots who won't take the time to know jack about what's really going on and won't believe you if you tell them.
ReplyDeleteIt is fine if you want to talk to a minister.
ReplyDeleteDo realize that the following are likely to happen:
1) He will tell his wife and she will tell another elders wife about it, and soon , everyone in church will know about it.
2) He will share it with his trusted advisors, the local elders, and they will let everyone know.
3) Your sin will be on your "permanent record" at least kept mentally as such by the minister. You will be painted/labeled or "boxed" by the problem/sin, even years later if you have overcome it.
4) COG people are the most judgemental crowd you will ever run into. Now I have no love for Flurry, but he does claim that he does not drink now at all. Yet even the crowd here will not let him forget his "6 pack" experience these many years later.
5) Ministers are at best , amateur counselors. You can get just as good advice listening to Dr. Phil, Dr. Laura or Dear Abby. Actually, realize that there are BOOKS written about almost everything, and done so by experts. Counseling can be costly. If you dont have the money, consider reading a number of books on the subject. Do not look to ministers as being the "poor mans" psychiatrist.
6) Ministers know little to nothing about medicine, legal matters, financial matters or investments, or other worldly matters.
7) Ministers will know all about their particular groups doctrinal distinctives. Feel free to ask questions about those. Do realize though that if you do not go along with the answer, and or just say "thats great, thank you" that you will be boxed as a potential trouble maker. Better to just use the internet to find your church's doctrines at.
Decades ago , Wayne Dunlap , a minster, gave me some of the best counsel I ever got from a minister. He said "Joe, if you are going to stick around this church thing, stay away from ministers, and you will you do just fine" .
LOL! - Old Wayne has been right. When I have crossed his advice, it has almost always been at my own peril!
I have known dozens of ministers over the years. Only two of them can I say are trusted friends, who shared their own faults, sins and fears and could be as transparent with me as I was with them. To be able to relate to each other in an adult - adult type of fashion, and in real love and affection for each other as equals.
A tough thing for ministers is that they live in a world of perfectionism and ridiculous expectation. They need people to trust in also. But the ministry is a very political and backstabbing world. Ministers need counselors and advisors and ministers too! They have problems and issues just like everyone else, yet it can be a very lonely place for them.
Realize that ministers have a very tough place where they fear constantly being found out that they are not superhuman, that they have sins and hang ups, and that they must constantly pretend to know all the answers . They are constantly being watched, from above them on the food chain, and from below them on the food chain.
Epiphany and realization, change and asking the right questions of life are rarely achieved from someone outside of you. Learn to become your own counselor, and learn to be brutally honest with yourself. There is a lost art of Christian meditation, that allows you to disconnect from your own ego and the river of carnal life. Once in that "zone" answers to most things are self evident.
Nearly all of us are on our own ego trips. Most people want counselors or ministers to be reinforcements for their own wrong thinking. Again, another bad use of your time, and theirs.
Many of lifes answers can be found if you can learn to be alone, in a plain white room, and disconnect from the madness of others , which creates the madness in YOU!
Your Friend,
Joe Moeller
Cody, WY
(Write In Candidate For President of UCG)
Flurry's marriage counselors have been known to counsel a marriage right into divorce, while simultaneously counseling a new member for baptism, who would shortly become the new spouse to the divorcé/divorcée.
ReplyDeleteOne example: An abusive man who demanded a fourth child from his young wife (already had two from a previous relationship) began marriage counseling with the hopes of a new naive wife. He received the gift of a pregnant bride, thanks to the PCG and its endorsement of concubinism.
Herbert W. Armstrong Cult www.hwarmstrong.com/horror-7.htm
ReplyDeleteChurch of God Horror Stories!
How Bad Was It, Really?
May I recommend the best counselor I have ever found anywhere. It is FRANK , the bartender at the Silver Dollar Bar on Sheridan Avenue in beautiful downtown Cody, WY.
ReplyDeletePatiently listens, never tells a soul anything that you tell him, and keeps the beers a coming.
Gives the best advice any counselor or minister can ever give to when asked a question...
"So Joe, what do YOU think the answer is?"
And old Frank is right! The answer to our questions can only ever be found from within!
Frank, Silver Dollar Bar, Minister Par Excellance! If I win the UCG presidency, I will ask Frank to be on the Council of Elders as my special advisor.
Joe Moeller
Cody, WY
Marriage counselling in the Armstrong movement can be described in one word: Suppression. And, it is nearly always unfairly applied against the female gender. This does nothing to improve marriage skills, it just imprisons the key partner who is most closely involved in nurturing the children. Potential for damage of the entire family should be perfectly obvious.
ReplyDeleteWisdom lies in going to one who is a trained or recognized expert in a given field for advice within that field. Unless he also had a degree in accounting, would you go to your family doctor for assistance in preparing your taxes?
Marriage counselling is a very complicated study in and of itself. Couples whom I know that have obtained such counselling have often shared that their mate refused to accept or follow the counsellor's advice, and that's where the concept generally breaks down. However, odds for success of the counselling would seem to be enhanced if at least the counsellor had the proper education in his or her field. Most mainstream Christian churches realize this, and some have non-ordained counsellors on staff, specially trained in the field.
BB
People in the ACOGs should ask themselves a very important question: If the ACOG version of the Holy Spirit doesn't make your leader's prophecy accurate and true to the timeline which they provide, what makes you feel that "it" will guide your minister in providing accurate, effective Godly, marriage counselling?
ReplyDeleteBB
ReplyDelete"PCG Ministers Are Gifts From Christ To Help Perfect You"
Correction: PCG "ministers" are sent and directed by Satan and his demons to try to destroy you both now and forever.
Gerald Flurry sets off my "gaydar".
ReplyDeleteI have absolutely no tangible evidence for this, but it would sure explain a lot about the treatment of women in PCG.
ReplyDeleteThe perverts that Gerald Flurry set up as PCG ministers when no real WCG ministers joined his cult will only harm and never help. Any decent people trapped in the PCG will need to look completely outside of the PCG for any real help.
Gerald Flurry, like Satan, was a liar from the beginning. He falsely claimed to be following HWA and God, but the plain truth is that Gerald Flurry has somehow managed to change, twist, mangle, pervert, and bugger up virtually every true teaching.
In the PCG, the local leaders just gossip and lie and slander continually without ceasing and without ever repenting. When it comes to families, the PCG will just break them up. When it comes to singles, the PCG will just try to force them to go out with old sex maniacs, sex perverts and predators two or three times their age.
Gerald Flurry has now been raging away for too many years calling other people evil Laodiceans to try to distract everyone from the FACT that he himself is one of the evilest, vilest, Satan-sent, Satan-directed creeps around.
But if you ask God for help, don’t overlook the fact that He may want to answer you through one of His ministers.
ReplyDeleteJust a little Google search and:
FACT
noun
1.
something that actually exists; reality; truth.
2.
something known to exist or to have happened.
3.
a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true.
Hmmmmm. Doesn't seem to match the CoG preacher's definition of "fact", does it?
"He will tell his wife and she will tell another elders wife about it, and soon , everyone in church will know about it."
ReplyDeleteYes, Joe, that is exactly right.
Several times in the past, talking to ministers or pastors, they have divulged information to me about other members which it was obvious was revealed to them in confidence. It was the type of information that I would be horrified if I shared in confidence and then they turned around and spread it in casual conversation without even thinking. Then they tell me their judgment of them, how they're too weak, or too helpless, or how they're beyond help and have brought everything on themselves. No licensed, professional counselor would EVER do that. But these guys have no training, they're not professional at all, and there is effectively no oversight.
I always avoided "counseling" with ministers. It seemed to me like going to the police for help when you're having trouble not breaking the laws of the land. No, you go to an attorney, NOT the police! A long time ago, I saw a youtube video where a former police officer spent 40 minutes detailing why you should never, ever talk to the police about anything, because there is absolutely no good that can ever come of it, you're only setting yourself up for all kinds of downside risks. Good advice!
Cops are very deceitful and trained in making all sorts of misleading statements to get information out of you that they will use against you. NEVER talk to them even if you are 100% innocent. Most people go down due to self-incrimination.
ReplyDeleteThere is no evidence that Flurry or any of his "ministers" have the spirit flowing or are in any way true servants of God. They give people the advice that is in the best interest of the ministry not the person they are supposedly helping.
Joe, the posters here aren't COG people, for the most part. Ex, maybe, but not any more. You're in the minority on that count. And the reason people don't let Flurry forget about the drinking arrest is that he lied about it. It's the same pattern set by HWA, GTA, etc. Dude deserves it, and more.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I don't think Joe realizes this isn't going to be the most receptive place in which to talk up what wonderful churches any of the ACOGs are. If you've ever had to exit any of them, it's a little hard to imagine how even one of them could possibly be chock full of the rainbows and lollipops that people who are still entrenched in Armstrongism are always bound to claim.
ReplyDeleteIn response to the two ANONS above:
ReplyDeleteYou are right about most if not all of the POSTERS here as being non ACOG attendees.
I am one of the few current COG attendees who dares to enter this lair. However, much like there were many Pharisees who listened in the dark while Jesus spoke, there are many current COG members who visit here .
Why do they do so? Because blogs like this, though often times distasteful to a current COG member, do act as a form of " underground free press" and communication vehicle. Oftentimes information that would be potentially suppressed or not heard is found on here. Realize that Banned is a sort of "Free Market Anarchy" that is not found anywhere else in the COG universe. And it is fairly timely and updated frequently.
My comments are directed to such current COG readers, and they are indeed legion. They are quiet , silent lurkers. Consider it my public service to my brethren. Yes, I am with UCG, and consider it the best place for a Sabbatarian Christian to be, warts and all. I wince at anyone going or being tempted to go with any of the groups like Pack, Flurry, Thiel, Meredith etc. I feel that ANY group that has a one man unaccountable leadership dictator is a toxic group and unhealthy for the soul.
Realize that there are at least 7 if not more subgroups who visit this page. I have stated this before in another post...
1) Atheists who hate Christianity
2) Atheists who are neutral towards Christianity
3) Christians that hate Armstrongism
4) Sabbath Christians who hate Armstrongism /
5) Sabbath Christians who love Armstrongism
6) Former COG people who are curious to see how it all plays out.
7) Current COG people who are curious to see how it all plays out.
I do find it funny how I get crapped on sometimes here, as if I am a surrogate for everything bad that has ever happened in the COG , simply because I still go to the UCG. Blatantly prejudiced and bigoted.
I have done no one here any harm, and have enjoyed the company. In fact Dennis Diehl and I had a wonderful telephone conversation not too long ago.
Im afraid that some of you have so much hate towards HWA etc that you will allow it drive you to hate innocent decent folk. Keep the hate where it belongs... against those who have abused you and lied to you. I am not one of those people. I have my own wounds and sufferings at the hands of religion in the ACOG. Trust me, and they are not good.
For me, it has not dimmed my love of God, or his word. For others, well, I understand how the abuse of men can lead to disillusionment. Ive been in some deep valleys too. I have no malice or hate of the people here. You are in my prayers for peace. I desire blessing in your life.
I ask that everyone who reads this be careful not to become like the abusers that we all hate. Oh, and I do hate religious abusers, with a passion. Dishing out abuse on surrogates or bystanders like myself is not the answer. It is as silly as killing every person in Germany because of World War II. Life is never that simple, but Im afraid that some of you here have tried to make our experience into a black and white, evil or right , 25 word judgement.
It is not that simple. The movie "Judgement at Nuremberg" shows how complex things in life can be. Good and Bad, evil and greatness can play together in some strange mixes. Forgiveness will help you to forgive yourself.
Your Friend and Still Brother,
Joe Moeller
Cody, WY
"God's ministers [so-called] aren't going to judge, condemn, gloat or belittle."
ReplyDeleteWhat a bald-faced lie. See ESN. They will do all of the above.
Thanks Joe. Well said.
ReplyDeleteI work with newcomers at the church I attend. Tonight we started with a new group. One of the things I tell everyone in my breakout group is that regardless of what church background we came from there was good to be found in it. That good is what made us who we are today. However, there may have also been a lot of bad along with that good. Discard the bad, treasure the good and learn to think differently with new ideas. I also tell them that just because the preacher says something or believes something does not mean you have to do the same. I encourage them to question things. Then just when they think they have an answer they are spurred on to ask another question.
Many people coming through have come from abusive churches. Others from Catholic backgrounds where they are disgusted by the child abuse scandals and other issues. Other come from fundamentalist backgrounds where the world was black and white and that gray areas in life were not permitted. As we all know life is one big gray blur at times.
When I refer to Armstrongism it is the abusive system with legalist ministers who control all aspects of member’s lives. Who live lives of rules and law over freedom of grace and lave. When I see James Malm go into apoplectic fits with UCG’s new emphasis on “love” I have to shake my head in amazement. Whether that is the path UCG is actually on or not time will tell. However, it certainly is a good step forward.
Of any group I might have joined when things started falling apart it might have been UCG. The problem was I saw the men gathering in SOG 360 and 380 as the connived and planned their breakaway group, as they continued to take a salary, and as they disfellowshipped noncompliant members left and right even though they themselves questioned the very things they were kicking people out over.
I understood the reason behind Tkach Sr. wanting to change things. They church had major issues. That being said, the way and manner the church went about implementing those changes were horrific and damaging. Just look at the wreckage that has transpired.
I don’t pretend to know everything about God as I was expected to. I don’t need to believe everything is literal contained in the Bible. I don’t need to have the answers and much prefer to live in the doubt and questions. Books questioning the Bible, scriptural interpretations, etc. don’t bother me either. It is a chance to use my brain to look at new ways of envisioning things. It does not mean I have to agree or follow them, but at least I have used my brain to try and understand where another person is coming from. So much of Armstrongism is fear based. Just look at Malm, Flurry, Pack, Weinland, and Thiel. Their god is just itching to spank the world and punish it. Death, destruction and damnation is more important than grace and unconditional love. Imagine James Malm having dinner with a pork eating, Sabbath breaking, gay prostitute (a quadruple whammy). He would be screaming and spitting damming the person to the Lake of Fire. Then you have Jesus with the thief on the cross granting salvation with not one effort on the thief’s part in doing something to appease and angry God. No Sabbath keeping, no pork repentance, nothing. Just a “surely you shall be with me in paradise.” Pretty cool!
I enjoy your posts here and hope you continue on. I am also willing to post articles, stories etc. from you or anyone else here that wants to share things. The post can be anonymous. Many of the things here come to me from COG member sin UCG, PCG, RCG and other COG’s. They pass things on to me and I play with it.
continued
I have no regrets picking on people in Flurry, Pack’s, Malm’s or Thiel’s little personality cults. The people in those groups know exactly the abuse that goes on in them and they look the other way. I am not afraid of hurting their feelings or offending them. They deserve to be offended. Are there other abuses in the COG out there that I miss? Absolutely! It’s just that these buffoons are proving a ripe harvest of fodder to expose them with.
ReplyDeleteThis is one of the few, if not the only COG related blogs that allows comments. I don’t fear atheist points of views or agnostics. I thoroughly understand where they are coming from. Their experience is just as valid as the person who still finds rich meaning in various COG’s. What I do expect though is that people respect others place in their journey. You don’t have to agree, but at least listen to what they say and find a meeting point. We all share a common heritage with lots of good and lots of baggage, whether one is still in a COG or out.
Thank you all for your posts and for the varying different outlooks on life and your experiences. I think it we all got together and sat down with a beer we would have a blast regardless of our differences.
Gary
I for one enjoy having Joe around. Why? Through his travels through Armstrongism, he has somehow avoided becoming cultic. And, in the past, we've had other examples of people who don't believe in latter day apostles, shun and repudiate Hislop, Velikovsky, and J.H. Allen, don't threaten us all with the Lake of Fire or always parrot the "B" word, but honestly feel that to show love for God, they should keep the OT Israelite sabbath and Holy Days, avoid unclean meats, and pay their tithes. Many probably remember the great exchanges in the past between Dennis and Bill Lussenheide, who pastors a sabbatarian church down around San Diego, and even shared pictures of his kids happily providing the praise music for their services.
ReplyDeleteWhen you stop and think about it, any people from the ACOGs who visit here are to be commended for their independent thinking and open mindedness. Probably a good percentage of those who visit here have compelling questions, and might just find some answers and solutions here.
Back when I was an atheist and/or agnostic, I was offended by the presence of any believer. Often, folks who believe differently from onesself make one uncomfortable, or place one on the defensive. If you take the time to go back, restudy everything from scratch, and draw your own conclusions rather than simply accepting the ones you are carefully guided to, then really there isn't much to feel defensive about. From that point on, you never really have to worry about "what if it turns out that they were actually right?"
BB
How can anyone object to Joe Moeller's comments? He is ironic without being cynical. His belief is solidly grounded, but he expresses it without dogmatism. He knows where he is coming from and seeks to understand where others are coming from.
ReplyDeleteHe is not alone. I know other people in UCG and COGWA who find comfort and support in their church experiences but who welcome friendships with people like me who have rejected church teachings. Such people give evidence that (however toxic some of our own experiences were) COGs may be the right environment for some people.